I'm An Alcoholic

[Dewey 3,330]

Start by forgiving yourself and others, take it easy. Eventually you will have the courage to ask others for forgiveness, but for right now, give yourself a break. 

[TwiceHorn 32,077]

1 hour ago, Dewey said:

Start by forgiving yourself and others, take it easy. Eventually you will have the courage to ask others for forgiveness, but for right now, give yourself a break. 

Some random thoughts on this. 

No one asks to be an alcoholic, we'd much rather be able to drink sanely, or even insanely at our discretion, but we can't so here we are.

You can't change the past, or control the future.  All you've really got is the present, the right now, so you better make the best of it.

Combining the two, right now all you can do is the next right thing, and not drink.

 

[BearSchlong 8,240]

como estan, bitches?  
whew, rough week.  Probably my worst one since the beginning in early/mid July.  Meeting topic this evening was step 4.  Not there yet, but man...delicate balance between looking back for inventory but just trying to plug through the next day/week.  Important to see how I got where I am, but most of the time...I just beat myself up and can't see my way through the next few hours.  I don't know how to do it.  Resuming therapy later this month.  Maybe that'll help.  Talking with others in recovery 1:1 on an almost daily basis.  I think I'm ready for a sponsor now.  I dunno.  I don't shit about fuck.  Just eerie sometimes how that day's shit comes up in a meeting.  But I go down the inventory rabbit hole and get so fucking bummed out that I forget, "oh yeah, you gotta tackle today too on top of all that regret."  simple, but it ain't easy.  
Anyway, I know y'all have discussed this very delicate struggle.  Would love some insight from anybody, everybody.  Or just tell me to quit thinking and work the steps.  Yeah, I fuckking get it.  Just looking for additional insight/experience.  This thread is no longer my crutch, but a very valued asset in my toolbox.  I am grateful.  Just a rough fucking week, started really getting lost in my shit.  Moreso than usual.  Not just alcohol, but my disconnect with society.  Family time has actually been really good lately and thank the fucking Lord for that.  Amen.  

Please, get a sponsor.

As time passes, your mind will quiet.

[Reagan1k 3,042]

21 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Please, get a sponsor.

As time passes, your mind will quiet.

Pretty please, get a sponsor.  

A drunk fell in a hole and couldn't get out. A businessman went by. The drunk called out for help. The businessman threw him some money and told him get yourself a ladder. But the drunk could not find a ladder in this hole he was in.
A doctor walked by. The drunk said, "Help, I can't get out." The doctor gave him drugs and said, "Take this, it will relieve the pain." The drunk said thanks, but when the pills ran out, he was still in the hole.
A renowned psychiatrist rode by and heard the drunks cries for help. He stopped and said, "How did you get there? Were you born there? Were you put there by your parents? Tell me about yourself, it will alleviate your sense of loneliness." So the drunk talked with him for an hour, then the psychiatrist had to leave, but he said he'd be back next week. The drunk thanked him, but he was still in his hole.
A priest came by and the drunk called for help. The priest gave him a Bible and said I'll say a prayer for you. He got down on his knees and prayed for the drunk, then left. The drunk was very grateful, he read the Bible, but he was still stuck in that hole.
A recovering alcoholic happened to be passing by. The drunk cried out, "Hey, help me, I'm stuck in this hole." Right away, the recovering alcoholic jumped in the hole with him. The drunk said, "What are you doing? Now we're both stuck here." But the recovering alcoholic said, "It's okay, I've been here before, I know how to get out."

Edited October 7, 2022 by Reagan1k

[YGIFS 19,458]

1 hour ago, BearSchlong said:

Please, get a sponsor.

As time passes, your mind will quiet.

I had a whole thing written.  But I'll just accept the best I'm gonna get is "stop thinking and work the program."  Which sounds about as fucking effective as "stop drinking and work the thinking" or the Catholic Church's "stop asking questions and work the rosary."  Had no idea it was so easy, can't believe people keep drinking when the solution is so simple.  I respect the steps, the program, the meetings, and I can even accept 'judging others' as part of 'service recovery.'  Was just asking how folks deal with the inherent contradiction of retrospective inventory versus handling getting through today/tomorrow.  It's an affront to the program, I get it.  I got a dozen other irons in the fire trying to get through this, this is a place I lean on for more informal introspection, war stories, and levity.  

I don't want my mind quiet, that's the fucking problem man.  It's when it goes silent, I get terrified because that meant I was drunk and the world was pushed away for hours.  When it wakes up and shouts and wants to hang out and figure shit out, it's fucking terrifying but also a good sign.  Means I'm still sober.  I was not a blackout drinker.  I was not a hit all the bars drinker.  I didn't drink to hide pain (although a bit of it was to facilitate procrastination but I was that as a youth, long before alcohol ever entered the picture).  I know I was always wired this way, but really didn't regularly drink until about 8 years ago.  I think maybe I used alcohol to hold back being happy and focused and creative and advancing myself as a person because that sounded hard.  Drinking alone sounded a fuckton easier and my brain tended to shut up about big ideas in my garage workshop listening to music and surfing the internet.  My background is as fucked up as anybody else in recovery.  But allowing myself to  flourish and grow and be happy?  Stifler/ "I dunno man, that sounds like a lotta work.  Maybe just hang back and have some brewskies and let the good times roll."  It was much a tool to shut off advancement as it was to shut off pain.  And oh yeah, apparently I'm also physically addicted to it.  So there's that.     

It was the last two years where it shifted to pure muscle memory.  Wife took the kids somewhere, weekend play-date, she's taking a shower after getting the kids to bed....time to go hoist a few real quick in the mancave or whatever.  And that was exhausting, but it kept my brain quiet from doing real introspection or thinking about the future.  And I'd stop drinking (not quit, just taking breaks...we all know the difference) for a week here or there.  And it was fine.  But a few months ago, my dry weeks got real fucking weird, real fucking quick,  I went from a migraine and runny dump to several days of dry heaving, heavy shaking, cold sweats, elevated heartrate, etc.  Quickly it became obvious that a long-term quitting solution would require a different approach.  I'm not doing all I can to stop, but I'm stopping to do all that I can...if that makes sense.  

Yeah, yeah...I know.  Quit thinking and work the steps.  I'm actually grateful I'm thinking again.  So nice to be understood   

[Reagan1k 3,042]

28 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

Was just asking how folks deal with the inherent contradiction of retrospective inventory versus handling getting through today/tomorrow.  It's an affront to the program, I get it.  I got a dozen other irons in the fire trying to get through this, this is a place I lean on for more informal introspection, war stories, and levity.  

If I, alone, in my own mind could have solved my problems, lord knows I put in enough time in my own head to do that.  But my mind can't fix my mind.

I deal with the inherent contradictions by taking guided action.  Action leads to changes in my outlook on my own life, my perspective on others, and my perspective on the past.  I don't know how or why.  I just know that if I take the actions I get results.

It doesn't seem like it would, and I can't tell you scientifically how it works, but I can tell you that by taking those actions with the help and guidance of someone who has been there before, I get answers to the same questions and issues you cite above. 

The burdens are lifted- in a way that can't be achieved by just thinking through it or processing it solo....not even in sharing as part of a group or in meetings. 

I no longer feel unique when I experience the taking of those actions with someone else.  I get consistent feedback and direction from a point of contact that keeps me centered in a solution working toward a common goal.

Inch by inch those actions produce palpable results in the way I feel about myself and others - in a manner that introspection or therapy didn't.

That's been my experience as an overthinking, introspective drunk.  That and $14 might buy you a latte at Starbucks, but probably not.

 

[YGIFS 19,458]

Thank you man. I am not trying to think my way out of it.  Good lord; all these meeting haven’t done  shit for some of y’all’s listening skills.  I like the part of turning myself over.  It’s helped.  Im just listening to other meetings now and it happens to coincide with the loudest my brain has been in a been in a decade.  
 

Not trying to out think the program or my problem.  What I’m asking is, now that the fog has lifted and my brain is fully-Esque operating…I’m just asking about how you marry the fully operational cerebrum again with the notion that have to stop thinking and just work the program.  I know it’s what is necessary.  And I’m working on it.  what I’m just asking is how the fuck some of you all did it/how are you doing it?  
Our problem aside.  And I’m not trying to skip over shit.  But at a basic cognitive level , you just have to understand that it seems weird to tell somebody to shut up stop thinking, and just do stuff even though for the very first time in a long time, your brain is finally back online.  I mean to me it’s like telling somebody who quit smoking to shut up and quit wheezing.   
 

was just asking for some war stories. If I wanted to quit thinking and using my brain, apparently there’s a fucking solution for that.   Not trying to be clever and out run the steps.  I just enjoy and appreciate the historical narrative how you all marry with your mind turning back on, and combining the past present and future.   

i know, I know   The way you did it was to quit thinking and so the steps.   But you have to understand the dissonance in now that sounds.   The guy that lost 100 pounds   He quit thinking and ate fewer calories than he expelled.   Yeah; I get it   What I wanna know is how; what his mindset   Ah duck it   

never mind I’m going to my meeting. I appreciate the tough love and discourse.   

Edited October 7, 2022 by YGIFS

[Kennythetiger 9,623]

3 hours ago, Reagan1k said:

Pretty please, get a sponsor.  

A drunk fell in a hole and couldn't get out. A businessman went by. The drunk called out for help. The businessman threw him some money and told him get yourself a ladder. But the drunk could not find a ladder in this hole he was in.
A doctor walked by. The drunk said, "Help, I can't get out." The doctor gave him drugs and said, "Take this, it will relieve the pain." The drunk said thanks, but when the pills ran out, he was still in the hole.
A renowned psychiatrist rode by and heard the drunks cries for help. He stopped and said, "How did you get there? Were you born there? Were you put there by your parents? Tell me about yourself, it will alleviate your sense of loneliness." So the drunk talked with him for an hour, then the psychiatrist had to leave, but he said he'd be back next week. The drunk thanked him, but he was still in his hole.
A priest came by and the drunk called for help. The priest gave him a Bible and said I'll say a prayer for you. He got down on his knees and prayed for the drunk, then left. The drunk was very grateful, he read the Bible, but he was still stuck in that hole.
A recovering alcoholic happened to be passing by. The drunk cried out, "Hey, help me, I'm stuck in this hole." Right away, the recovering alcoholic jumped in the hole with him. The drunk said, "What are you doing? Now we're both stuck here." But the recovering alcoholic said, "It's okay, I've been here before, I know how to get out."

What an amazing show. 
 

 

[Dewey 3,330]

You really can't stop thinking, I started reading, not just the big book, but I studied all types of spirituality. My goal and it's still a goal 4 years in, is to fill my mind with better shit than what it was filled with. I spent 40 years building a mind that didn't trust, that carried resentment, that thought I was better and smarter than the rest. I'm at a point now where I think less about the past and actually feel that I am preparing for a better life than the bullshit I lived before. 

Dig in, study whatever you want, fill yourself up, have an open mind, be willing to change... That person you are now really doesn't work anyway. But never ever forget you are an alcoholic, never forget your last drunk, as they say. 

[YGIFS 19,458]

Well that’s what I was getting at, how to acknowledge the past and work towards the future.  It’s something I’ve been (GASP!) thinking about lately.  
 

maybe it’s my chapter, but it’s pretty Socratic.  People asking rhetorical questions of themselves, but also each other shit, meeting leader doing the same, lotta questions afterwards.  I thought that was a healthy part of it. This whole “stop thinking and shut up and do the work” has a place but it’s just new to me from what I’ve seen IRL.  Never said or thought I was too smart for this to happen in my own.  That’s why the fuck I’m working this in the first place.  
 

I know it’s a gap filler to tell people how to handle their shit. And I am in awe of some of y’all’s stories.   Just because somebody’s brain is back online en total and yearning for takes of survival doesn’t mean that person is trying to outsmart the established successes of the program anymore than we looked down at our shiny, new opposable thumb and though we could outcraft God.  

Edited October 7, 2022 by YGIFS

[TwiceHorn 32,077]

14 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Well that’s what I was getting at, how to acknowledge the past and work towards the future.  It’s something I’ve been (GASP!) thinking about lately.  

The steps have a plan for that.

Guilt and regret over the past can be a killer, but there's nothing you can do to change it, so it's not worth wasting brainpower or emotions on it.  Acknowledge the character defects that brought about negative events from the past and work on those in the present.

Edited October 8, 2022 by TwiceHorn

[Reagan1k 3,042]

@YGIFS  My head starts spinning when I wake up.  I think of past events and replay them in slow motion.  Re-feeling all of the emotions.  I play with them like a toy. I’ll decide what I should have said, what they’d have said in response.  On and on.

Or, I’ll gin up a future event…. It’ll be this, I’ll do that, they’ll do this.  Pretty soon I’m living in a ditch during a nuclear apocalypse.

Booze turned the volume down on that and I could breath and stop the Catherine Wheel from moving.  It was my solution and being sober was painful.

When I dried out, I still had all those feelings, jumbled up with new goals and dreams because I was feeling better.  I was a mess in my head.

That’s still my default position but I now have a tool to stop that living in the past or projecting into the future and frankly laugh at it most of the time….. there I go again.

If I can’t, I have someone to call and tell out loud, past my teeth what I’m feeling.  That takes the power out of it.  Hearing it through my ears instead of bouncing around in my head changes the game.  I get feedback and instructions.  I take action and I get relief.

it frees me to live in the moment and be present.  Making clear minded decisions unclouded by fear more often than not.  I don’t create as much wreckage and when I do I go back quickly and clean my side of the street. 

Booze were the only reliable tool I’d found to help me quiet the noise and catch my breath.  Now I have a sufficient substitute that brings me more  peace of mind.  I just didn’t know how to get there on my own. 

[YGIFS 19,458]

Yeah, I'm calling my buddy this morning who's kinda my long-distance sponsor until I get one from my current group.  It always helps to tell him shit out loud.  Between him and two other guys here who I way back with who quit (neither is in the program though), I talk to someone about once a day on average in addition to the other shit.  This will be the focus of our conversation today.  He got stuck in this spot too, I mean I know everybody does...but it was an especially big challenge for him.  So I think it'll help.  

Hey, it's gotta help more than "Here's a buncha shit to think about BUT STOP THINKING about shit!"    

Jesus, you guys are this incoherent sober...what the fuck were you like drunk?   

And to think any other year, i'd be five beers in at the state fair by now.  Gonna see my 93yo grand-uncle later who is in town for a submariner convention.  Normally, I'd worry about staying sober around a bunch of Navy vets but these guys are too old to drink themselves.  Ha.

[BearSchlong 8,240]

My advice?

Pick someone other than a friend to sponsor you and help you with the steps for the first time. Someone hard, someone objective and unaffected who will not cosign your bullshit, because until you work the steps and start making 9th-step amends, that's pretty much what you have.

Example - I'd been sober about 5 years when I called my sponsor with some trivial bullshit. And this guy is gentle, spiritual, a real mensch. About 2 minutes into my whining he interrupted me with “How long have you been sober?” uh, 5 years. “Go start acting like it” before he hung up on me.

That did more for me than dozens of meetings because it was his way of telling me to grow the fuck up in a meaningful and productive context. Oh yeah, I have that skill now. Learned in Alcoholics Anonymous.

My current sponsor and I have lunch most Fridays at Lubys, and yesterday he found me trying to rationalize some decisions one of my own sponsees recently made and he said “I am gonna stop you right there, I'm a litigator, and I get paid to advocate for people who made certain decisions, youre doing exactly that” and I took his point.

In short, your job is to grab the shovel and dig, your sponsor’s job is to shine the flashlight into the hole.

There's a fine line between helpful objective witness and asshole, and if I'm being honest I err on being gentle because I know alcoholics are their own worst critics. I try to help people inventory the good as well. But above all I have to be unaffected. I'm hearing a 5th step tomorrow, and I know there is going to be some gnarly meth-related subject matter like prostitution and exploitation involved and my job is to help this guy find ways to make amends and move forward, otherwise he is doomed. I've heard just about everything weighty, including wrongful death and prison gang stuff and those men have found successful serene long term sobriety once they faced their character defects.

Honest, open-minded, and willing. That is all I have to be.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Yeah, why I typed, "He's kinda my long-distance sponsor (placeholder) until I can get back in person to my 5:30p (been doing that one via zoom and 8:00p in person which is just too many people younger than me with hardly any volunteers)."  I know I need a stranger, going back to 5:30p's in person due to schedule changes and some folks have said lets meet up afterwards and figure out if it's a fit---looking forward to it.  Just saying that i was gonna take my struggle today to somewhere productive, to a guy who struggled with this part because I know he did 'cause I was there years ago with him.  Somedays, I can't do the whole program so I find resources inside and outside myself to help.  I thought that was kinda the point.   Your reading comprehension must have been just fantastic before sobriety     

Thank you again, hope we can grab a meal one day and chat more in depth about this, but anything else but this.  

I know, I know.  Quit thinking about shit, but think about all the shit.  This is the weirdest fucking program and I sold Amway knives door-to-door in college once.  

[Kennythetiger 9,623]

That group with hardly any volunteers?  I know where they can get a good one. 

[YGIFS 19,458]

Not sure on the terminology (volunteers may be the wrong word...I do volunteer to take out trash and wipe down chairs), but at the end when they ask who'd be willing to step up and sponsor new(er) folks...my 5:30p is like 2/3rds of the room and it's folks near me IRL.  But I'm doing that one on zoom lately due to schedule shit.  my 8:00p which I can more often join in person...it's younger, more female, more folks from outta town, more drug-related, and it's like 10% raise their hand.  No judging, no overthiking, I'm ready, so next week I've arranged schedules so I can go back to 5:30p in person, do some sharing, read some more, and some guys I connect with reached out and said "come back for a few meetings, we'll talk afterwards, and plot a course."  I think it's all coming together at the right time.  I know, I know....quit analyzing. 

Well, beyond our issue...there's a physical world that has shit like the passage of time and physical distances.  But that I'm back to struggling with some emotional shit...and I can get back to this and connect and sponsor up...I think it's a good thing that I let my shit go and see what happens.  So I'm optimistic actually.  But counting down the seconds until somebody shits all over that                                                      ONward, thru the fog............

 

[tx 3 putt 78,677]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:16 PM, Macanudo said:

Dropped off one of the Macanudo-ettes at a concert in downtown.   I live 30+ miles away so it seems kind of silly to drive back home only to come back in 2-3 hours.

Does anyone know how hard it is for a solo person to find a restaurant that's not too frou-frou/expensive or basically a pub?   Old me would have headed over to a whiskey bar and had a liquid dinner.

I ended up at fucking Freebirds.   Now I'm sitting in a coffee shop which is at least comfortable and way more what I was wanting.   I'll hang here until it's about time to head back over to the venue. 

But hot damn if going to a bar and knocking back a few wasn't on my mind an hour ago.

 

i live by downtown, could have pointed you to a couple of places 

[Reagan1k 3,042]

3 hours ago, YGIFS said:

But counting down the seconds until somebody shits all over that                                                      ONward, thru the fog............

Man- I get it.  I can tell you I completely understand where you’re coming from and I know it sounds like I’m not listening and instead criticizing.  I’ve been right where you are.  Dealing with life sober all day and then getting into recovery mode in meetings, reading this dry, odd book, and seeing these steps and promises on the wall.  Having directions hurled at you from every angle and increasing expectations from home and work because you’re actually present. 

Speaking for myself, where I sit is my view is this.  When I was sitting in the shit you seems to be fighting with, I wish someone had pulled me into sponsorship more quickly.  It would have eased the dis-ease sooner.

100% of what you’re saying is normal and expected at this stage in your recovery. It’s a Weird place to be - coherent, clear minded and all these thoughts rushing in.  My experience is that a good sponsor helps make sense out of all of this. 

[BearSchlong 8,240]

Here is my sponsor face. But it only works on guys who ask me to tell them what I see.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Tell me you don’t get a substitute high from your old timer high horse without telling me you don’t get a substitute high from your old time high horse.   

I can work the program and ask questions here more outside the box.  It’s not binary.  But I appreciate your tough love.  Going back to my “base meeting” next week in person.  Zooms and 8:00p did the trick thus far.  But ready to get connected more deeply.  Will report back.  Until then, yeah, yeah…quit thinking…thinking is for bitches.  

[BearSchlong 8,240]

Good luck. More will be revealed. All I have is my experience.

[YGIFS 19,458]

I know you mean well you ole' sack of sacks.  

Days like today really make me wonder in awe of how the fuck people did this 50 or even 15 years ago.  I read through some shit on here and the book this morning, then went to church and then volunteered, used a thing in my pocket to call another friend in recovery who is multiple years in and a godsend to me in terms of just letting me spew shit out loud that I can't say around my house, I can zoom into a meeting while my kids are having a playdate in my backyard, and can close my eyes and meditate while literally listening to the ACL music festival live on my front porch (with no beer in hand).  How the hell did this used to go back then in podunk, USA with a once-a-week meeting in a church basement with no other resources?  I guess the communal aspect was even more important then, but the additional resources online and adjunct are such a help for me.  Even just texting with guys in the program is helpful at times.

Best part of my day today?  My 93/94yo grand-uncle was visiting with his 70yo ladyfriend (good for you Steve, getting that young tail).  He doesn't know about my shit, no point in telling him.  But he is incredibly astute mentally.  More than any other person his age I've ever known and I've known a lot.  He moves slow but he doesn't miss a fucking thing.  He said, "Wonderful visiting with you and the girls.  You seem happier and more with God since the last time I saw you."  If even 10% of that is accurate, I'll take it in a fucking heartbeat.  

[Kennythetiger 9,623]

22 hours ago, Reagan1k said:

100% of what you’re saying is normal and expected at this stage in your recovery. It’s a Weird place to be - coherent, clear minded and all these thoughts rushing in.  My experience is that a good sponsor helps make sense out of all of this. 

Old-time lady in my town calls it taking a cheese grater to your brain. Getting sober means scraping off the “protective” layer of nasty shit that alcohol put around our brain so that we didn’t feel anything. Once that layer is gone and you start with a brain that’s scraped-clean, you gotta learn how to process normal emotions in a normal way. Can’t just get fucked up and hide anymore. 

[Celery Man 21,097]

probably against my better judgement i'm going to post this

I'm being 100% honest when I say that I'm not interested in a political discussion about this here and am not posting this to influence anyone's opinion about any politicians or sons of politicians. But just... I don't know if you guys have been on the end of a call like this or a discussion like this, or out the other end when you get some of the residual anger directed at you, and here is 2018 one of the most powerful men on the planet just dealing with this same shit and not having any levers to pull.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Yeah, I’m not sure why they broadcast that.  I wish they wouldn’t have.  But I did cry when I heard it.  I’ve gotten that call/text from my wife before, but never a family member.  

When a loved one says, “I can and wilL do anything to help you but I don’t know where to start and you don’t know either” and that person can actually make anything happen on earth.  Except move someone to recovery.  That’s tough but beautiful.  I can’t imagine how hard that call is for parents that have no resources or bandwidth to help, just unconditional love and a longing to reconnect.  I pray to God my daughters don’t get this bug, but if they do…I hope I can be more like Joe Biden (never thought I’d type that in a thousand years).  
 

I think people still have this notion of it’s a bunch of shitty addict low life’s who’d sell out their family or country for one more hit.  It’s not.  It’s 10-20% of all the people around you.  You don’t have to help them, but don’t vilify them either.  

I am so thankful for my wife and friends helping me along the way.  I can’t include my train wreck of a family right now though; but I’m glad Hunter can.  I’m glad most of you can.  I hear so many folks share that are going it completely alone once they walk out that door or finish their sponsor call.  
 

He said to me “we are all trekking to the same summit.  There are guides and signs to help you in your way.  But ultimately, there are a thousand different paths up to there, and you must walk almost all of them.”   

[TwiceHorn 32,077]

52 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

probably against my better judgement i'm going to post this

I'm being 100% honest when I say that I'm not interested in a political discussion about this here and am not posting this to influence anyone's opinion about any politicians or sons of politicians. But just... I don't know if you guys have been on the end of a call like this or a discussion like this, or out the other end when you get some of the residual anger directed at you, and here is 2018 one of the most powerful men on the planet just dealing with this same shit and not having any levers to pull.

It's a heartbreaker, for sure.  My drinking interfered with my relationships and delayed marriage for quite some time, but between my advancing age, recognition of my fundamental selfishness, what I believe to be a genetic predisposition, and the horror stories from meetings of addicted children of alcoholics, I decided I would forego childrearing.

[TwiceHorn 32,077]

On 10/9/2022 at 2:25 PM, YGIFS said:

I know you mean well you ole' sack of sacks.  

Days like today really make me wonder in awe of how the fuck people did this 50 or even 15 years ago.  I read through some shit on here and the book this morning, then went to church and then volunteered, used a thing in my pocket to call another friend in recovery who is multiple years in and a godsend to me in terms of just letting me spew shit out loud that I can't say around my house, I can zoom into a meeting while my kids are having a playdate in my backyard, and can close my eyes and meditate while literally listening to the ACL music festival live on my front porch (with no beer in hand).  How the hell did this used to go back then in podunk, USA with a once-a-week meeting in a church basement with no other resources?  I guess the communal aspect was even more important then, but the additional resources online and adjunct are such a help for me.  Even just texting with guys in the program is helpful at times.

Best part of my day today?  My 93/94yo grand-uncle was visiting with his 70yo ladyfriend (good for you Steve, getting that young tail).  He doesn't know about my shit, no point in telling him.  But he is incredibly astute mentally.  More than any other person his age I've ever known and I've known a lot.  He moves slow but he doesn't miss a fucking thing.  He said, "Wonderful visiting with you and the girls.  You seem happier and more with God since the last time I saw you."  If even 10% of that is accurate, I'll take it in a fucking heartbeat.  

On the old-timers, I think there were a couple of things at work.  First, they targeted the truly desperate, often in hospitals or sanitariums, that had tried any and all possibilities and were near the end of their ropes in a more literal way than most of us today.  They ran through the steps in a matter of days, working intensely with another alcoholic.  The lack of meetings wasn't a hindrance to the first pass through the steps and I would venture that most meeting attendees had already been through the steps.

Meetings weren't the entre into the program the way they are today.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Yeah, makes sense.  I’ve run through the permutations in my head of what it musta been like.  And what they’ll think of how we did it one day 75 ears from now.  Just something to think about to glean empathy but to also just be thankful for the network and resources I do actually have.  
 

Speaking of sanitariums, I was worried that I only spoke to myself in the third person when I was drinking, planning to drink, or was upset that I had drank prior.  But my wife assured me, “I’ve overheard you talking out loud to yourself in the third person since we moved in together.  Way before you started drinking.”  My mother chimed in that I’ve been doing it since I was 3 or 4.  So obviously it predates alcohol but maybe it was a warning sign?   I dunno.  But I crack myself up and it helps me temper social anxiety which used to drive me to drink more.  
 

Anyway, another intra-thread for another time. both therapists I’ve seen said it’s not dangerous, it’s just a modified version of self-talk.  Everybody does it, you just do it more often and do it to make yourself laugh or repent, to put yourself at ease.  It’s yet one of many masking techniques you’ve subconsciously developed to avoid relying solely on alcohol or other people.  But just like being drunk, it’s not sustainable, you gotta learn to talk to other people about everything from the weather to your problems.  That’s hard for me, I’m a good listener even drunk.  But I do not understand the fascination people have with talking IRL. This shit here is easy, it’s text you can scroll past.  I don’t know how people just talk outside of work presentations for general human interaction.  I love talking with my kids and my wife is okay, but the fuck with sharing?  ;)

[BearSchlong 8,240]

You’re only as sick as your secrets. The 5th step is incredibly powerful.

Recovery isn’t for people who want it, or need it; it’s for people who do it.

Everything else is mere tourism.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Working it bitch!  Just connecting to that highly publicized phone call.  It just reminded me of how the vast majority of my family isn't remotely involved in this 'cause they don't get it.  Anyway, reading and meditating on 2&3 this week.  As i said, back in person with 5:30p and hope to connect with someone in the days ahead.  

Anyway, ain't about me.  But I had 2 or 3 things "intellectual" things after work today.  Was kinda cool standing next to myself and listening/watching myself listen and ask questions sober with really smart people.  I wasn't particularly interesting but watching "me" engage was kinda cool.  I used to "tune out" and go into auto-pilot.  Anywhoodles.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Whew, woke up middle of the night as per usual and did some reading.  That helped.  Then went outside to play with my oldest outside before she left for school hours later.  It's gotta be 85 degrees with the humidity out there, fuck.  But it got me looking at the forecast for ACL this weekend and how tempting cold beer might be on a hot day.  This'll be the first one i've done sober.  Honestly, I'm kinda shocked at how I've done at big events.  Football games, conferences, now ACL.  Temptation was obviously there with free drinks, but I've done okay in that department---wasn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it'd be and nobody gave fuck one I wasn't drinking.  I was most worried about that since my public ruse was heavily reliant on alcohol.  As my wife I discussed though, I gotta really do the work on not retreating at home...gotta keep engaging and not withdrawing to drink to mask 'n hide.  That's been harder work than I anticipated.  

Yeah, yeah...quit thinking and just do it.  Was just commenting that the things you think will be so hard (and they obviously could be again one day) might surprise you and the motions of daily work and life may be a lot fucking tougher than you think going in.  Going to 8:00p tonight.  Two zoom calls with folks in recovery today over lunch break which should hold me over.  Was gonna meditate outside but it's so fucking muggy.  Dah fuh.  Looks like I picked the wrong summer to quit washing my balls.  

[DallasHorn26 589]

Does anyone have any connections in the Midland/Odessa area.? An old running buddy of my Dad's called me yesterday and said he was desperate and was going to his first meeting Friday in Midland. He knew I was in the program and wanted to talk to a familiar face. No one in my sponsor ship circle has any connections there, so hoping one of you may know someone I can connect him with in person. I'm going to stay in touch with him too.

[BearSchlong 8,240]

Does anyone have any connections in the Midland/Odessa area.? An old running buddy of my Dad's called me yesterday and said he was desperate and was going to his first meeting Friday in Midland. He knew I was in the program and wanted to talk to a familiar face. No one in my sponsor ship circle has any connections there, so hoping one of you may know someone I can connect him with in person. I'm going to stay in touch with him too.

I do. My late great grand sponsor was sober there for 50 years til he passed. IIRC my friend and fellow conference board member Tim B. may be a good contact. I will pm you his information this morning.

Damned good AA there, the west Texas kind where they don't fuck around. My sponsor is from there too.

[Reagan1k 3,042]

I'm still a drunk who found a way to recover from my hopeless condition.

Never like seeing this off the 1st page in case someone needs to see that recovery is possible....so bump.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Even though I got posters like Shadow2.0 literally posting about me trying to raise money to feed my addiction (probably has his own shit going on), I wanted to pop back in and say thanks for the wisdom, tough love, and letting me vent over the last few months.  Had some really great weeks and some absolutely horrific ones, but the journey continues and for some bizarre reason---looking out at the gloomy day and am thankful for those of you cleared a path to a better life and left a trail.  

But seriously, my fucking sleep still sucks and I'm holding all you responsible.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

I quit drinking in April after reading a book called Quitting Drinking the Easy Way by Allan Carr.  It did something to my brain that turned me off of alcohol completely.  I have had no desire to drink since I read that book in one sitting in late April.  I am not sure it would work for hardcore alcoholics, but it has worked well for me.  

Switched to Delta 8 seltzers. 8th Wonder Brewery makes one I like. Zero calories and no alcohol. When I first quit, I was drinking a couple D8 seltzers a day (because I was drinking daily). Now I maybe drink one or two per week.

Has been great for my health. I have lost 60 pounds, sleep better, no longer snore, am able to exercise in the morning and feel great, my BP has normalized, and my blood work on my liver has gone from borderline problem to great. For me, they have been a life saver.  I do not miss booze at all.  I rarely got drunk, but drank almost on a daily basis between 4 and 6 drinks.  Have zero issue being around booze, as there is plenty in my house as my wife will drink a glass or two of wine a couple times per week.

Quitting booze has been great for me physically, mentally, spiritually, and as a father and husband.  

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Johnny Sack

[YGIFS 19,458]

That's good to read man.  Congrats.  Though fuck you on the 60 pounds     I had lost about 35 in just a few months, but put about 5+ back on recently as I'm eating like a teenage triathlete for some weird reason.  Wasn't quite like you described, but certainly similar in terms of consumption.  Wasn't a daily drinker and didn't black out drink and wouldn't pound several in a row...but multiple days a week would start a session and just maintain a level "buzz/alcohol induced haze" for several hours.  Being around booze isn't a huge issue for me.  Done games, dinners, open bars in suites 'n shit with little temptation.  But it's those times by myself when I get screwy.  I need to check out that book.  I'm still haven't finished the big book because I get stuck on the same three chapters over and over again.  But I'm told, maybe that's the point. 

My brain is still rebooting after 3 months.    How's your train of thought after 6 months?   

Edited October 28, 2022 by YGIFS

[BearSchlong 8,240]

Yesterday my team and I spent a mind-bending 6 hours with the CIO of a southern state discussing IT systems architecture.

Then, happy hour with 25 people at a downtown bar. I was the last one to leave because I was networking, brainstorming, collaborating, and moving the business forward. It did not even register in my mind that I was in a bar, other than the club sodas I drank.

All the youngsters prepared to go out to do some partying in earnest (SEC!), and I announced, “I’m going to see some friends” and grabbed my phone, hit google, selected a meeting at random, grabbed my rental car, and headed out, hoping for the best.

It was birthday night. After a half-dozen strangers greeted me with hugs, I sat down at a table, and someone set a solo cup of Hawaiian Punch and a plate of fried chicken, potato chips, and birthday cake in front of me.

The next hour was magical. Julius celebrated 31 years, and he told us stories of his repeated trips to rehab. A dozen people spoke with gratitude about his patience, wisdom, and willingness to help. His sister and brother-in-law commented on their persistence and faith in his eventual sobriety. The old timers focused their context to the newcomers in the room. They quoted the BBOAA. They did it right.

That damned AA miracle happened again, and now I’ve got friends in yet another city.

Showed up at the airport at 5am today and my team was talking about their shenanigans. They were tired but sober, and not suffering hangovers. They asked me what I did last night and I told them “not much.”

Such is our society.

[hullabelew 3,730]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

I quit drinking in April after reading a book called Quitting Drinking the Easy Way by Allan Carr.  It did something to my brain that turned me off of alcohol completely.  I have had no desire to drink since I read that book in one sitting in late April.  I am not sure it would work for hardcore alcoholics, but it has worked well for me.  

Switched to Delta 8 seltzers. 8th Wonder Brewery makes one I like. Zero calories and no alcohol. When I first quit, I was drinking a couple D8 seltzers a day (because I was drinking daily). Now I maybe drink one or two per week.

Has been great for my health. I have lost 60 pounds, sleep better, no longer snore, am able to exercise in the morning and feel great, my BP has normalized, and my blood work on my liver has gone from borderline problem to great. For me, they have been a life saver.  I do not miss booze at all.  I rarely got drunk, but drank almost on a daily basis between 4 and 6 drinks.  Have zero issue being around booze, as there is plenty in my house as my wife will drink a glass or two of wine a couple times per week.

Quitting booze has been great for me physically, mentally, spiritually, and as a father and husband.  

 

I tried that book about 10  years ago because fuck going to AA.  I'm not THAT bad, right?  That book didn't make a dent in me, but truly glad it helped you.  It was another 6 years before I finally ended up in treatment.  

[Gatorubet 30,713]

On 10/8/2022 at 8:47 AM, YGIFS said:

Yeah, I'm calling my buddy this morning who's kinda my long-distance sponsor until I get one from my current group.  It always helps to tell him shit out loud.  Between him and two other guys here who I way back with who quit (neither is in the program though), I talk to someone about once a day on average in addition to the other shit.  This will be the focus of our conversation today.  He got stuck in this spot too, I mean I know everybody does...but it was an especially big challenge for him.  So I think it'll help.  

Hey, it's gotta help more than "Here's a buncha shit to think about BUT STOP THINKING about shit!"    

Jesus, you guys are this incoherent sober...what the fuck were you like drunk?   

And to think any other year, i'd be five beers in at the state fair by now.  Gonna see my 93yo grand-uncle later who is in town for a submariner convention.  Normally, I'd worry about staying sober around a bunch of Navy vets but these guys are too old to drink themselves.  Ha.

YGIFS, from time to time I read this thread, even though I lucked up DNA wise, and seem not to have much susceptibility to addiction to drugs or alcohol. But wisdom is wisdom, and the advice given here is transferable - and valuable in addressing other situations.

So this non-alcoholic has a life experience, and a small suggestion. When I was a young guy, my dad got me a job as a union laborer, a job that paid pretty well and so kept him from having to pay for my college.  One day I was told to get a pickax and dig a trench across a dirt road. It was below freezing outside and every time I swung the pick a little chunk of frozen dirt would be removed.   I was not making any progress. My boss came by and I told him this was useless, and they needed to get  some machinery to dig the trench. He told me to shut the fuck up and dig the trench.  Now I was pissed and started swinging the pickax even harder and faster.  As it turned out, once I got thru an inch or two of that top frozen ground the dirt below was a different temperature and I was able to finish the trench by lunchtime.

My boss came by and I proudly showed him that I had completed the trench.  He responded, “It’s amazing what happens when you follow the advice of someone who knows what they’re doing and has done it before…instead of explaining why it can’t be done because you want an excuse not to do it”.      It was a point that I remember  to this day 

So no offense, but as I read the recent posts directed to you, it struck me that you were on “send” instead of being on “receive” - and that you are more focused on explaining why their advice is contradictory or hypocritical, or illogical or unsuccessful, rather than excepting the advice as truth that will work if you just. fucking. do. it. 

Lord knows I am not stepping in your shoes, and the purpose of my post is not to criticize you. I just see you asking for help and then pushing back when people give you advice on how to get help. Maybe, just maybe you are falling into a situation much like my story.   So my small advice is to substitute your logic and experience for the wisdom and experience of those trying to help you. Just like me, you could not figure it out on your own - and just like me I’m sure as soon as you listen to these guys who have fought the fight and come out on the other side, and stop looking for flaws in their advice, you will accomplish your goal.

Good luck.  You got this.  

 

[YGIFS 19,458]

I appreciate that.  But I lay on the sarcasm and the smiley faces to broadcast to an extreme, that I appreciate it and the saltiness is all in good fun.  I'm receiving the important messages.  That's what keeps me coming back to the site/thread.  And doing meetings, stepwork.  literally one of the things that prompted me to do full stop and do full work was this thread because I probably have more in common with y'all than the alcoholics in my own family, network, AA group, et. al.  I came here precisely for the wisdom.  I'm a big believer in the best proof that something can be done is that someone has already done it.  I don't give pushback at meetings or sponsor stuff or in counseling, I just listen.  On here, I use defense mechanisms and sarcasm as a way to cope.  The real work is in real life, but don't get wrong---this was a huge motivator and prompter for me and I appreciate it as always.  It's not that I'm not open to receive and appreciative, it's that we all belong on a reality TV show in an asylum.  But we'd have some laughs at least.  

Focusing again on higher power work as of late.  Doing three days of volunteer work in the past 8 has helped with that.  Plus, hey don't have to worry about drinking when you're cleaning up a public school campus for 8 hours.  Service was always important to me.  I've tried to follow the 30/30 model my grandfather and grand-uncle laid out---30% of your income & 30 hours a month to charity/education/non-profit/church for many years.  It's tough but it's helped me through this time in my life.  and connects me closer to higher power thoughts.  Still beating myself up mentally but take little bouts of pride in those good times as well.  

I'm at another weird physical crossroads thing again.  happens every couple weeks for the last 3+ months.  Really binary brain clarity followed immediately by brain fog.  Weight loss completely plateau'd and in fact gained a few as all of a sudden, I couldn't get enough carbs/sugar (and that's usually not my issue-not a sweets or bread guy).  Had lost 35, almost 40 pounds.  Now I put almost 10 back on.  Sleep is getting better again.  

all that to say, I know this is an oversimplification and fucking calm down, I'm not reinventing the program to suit my needs.  Just fucking hear out my shitty analogy.  But it's like there's 10 factors to recovery from liver to weight to parenting to cognitive to sleep to mood/behavior to work performance to spiritual centering to whatever.  You get the idea, just a bunch of aspects to your existence on this planet-right?  And on your best day if you alcohol had never been invented, of course all 10 will never be in optimal range.  And on your worst drinking, 8-10 of them would be suboptimal.  But I'm realizing all the work to stay on course, you can't expect to keep even half optimal.  And I'm starting to accept that and getting a glint of wisdom to spot it.  I can be doing okay avoiding slipping, okay with family, okay on heartrate, but I just cannot control that some nights my body says, "Fuck it, It's 3am---we're up for the day asshole!" or "you can try all the memory tricks you want...we are not going to remember what your wife said about parent's day at school even though you were dead sober."  It's just a juggling game all fucking day.  Stepwork and meetings are something concrete I can do and actively participate in, but all the work and prayer cannot change the fact that I cannot sleep for more than 5-6 hours without medicinal aide and I ain't going down that path.  I'm being patient letting things rewire themselves and using lots of tools in the toolbox.  I need to get back on the exercise wagon again.  That really helped the first ~45 days, swimming and biking.  But I've slacked off of that because of working 80 hours/week again.    

Anyway, doing better.  Rough patches abound.  Fucking abound.  But a solid almost 4 month arc next week.  Setting my receiver to "Fuck you, but I'm willing to listen"  

[Gatorubet 30,713]

[Celery Man 21,097]

i ate nothing but cereal, salad bar, and frozen yogurt when I was at La Hacienda. I was pretty thin when I got out. And then there was a stint where I was fucking up a bag of haribo sour gummies after lunch or walking over to scholz for pie a la mode and my shirts got a bit tighter. And at some point I realized that the whole "sugar craving early sobriety lol" thing was fine and good but it's just a habit to break, so I broke it. And now my weight bounces around in a 10-15 pound range based on whatever else is going on. Funny thing is we've been trying to bring the grocery budget under control and I"m back on a lot of cereal outside of dinner, and once again I'm in a thin phase.  I guess frosted mini wheats and 2% milk is what keeps me in fighting shape. And those little frozen lemonades.

Anyways, shit is weird for months after getting sober. One of the super powers that comes with sobriety is the intense practice in building new habits and the absolute triviality of breaking something like a gummy bear habit after you used to wake up at 5 am to throw up bile because your BAC was too low.

I guess I hit 7 years? I forgot that that date rolled by - the 21st. We're getting fuckin old, gents.

[TwiceHorn 32,077]

Alcohol is chemically related to sugar.  It runs a lot of the same metabolic pathways as sugars, including effects on the brain.

Take away the alcohol, and the body will tend to crave sugary stuff.  It evens out a bit after a while.

It's also a lot of empty calories, the removal of which is near-certain to result in weight loss.  But the sugary stuff may bring back the weight to some degree.

[YGIFS 19,458]

Sage advice CeleryMan.  Thanks for posting.  Yeah, it was just weird that all of a sudden, after months of trying to stay in recovery (and years of just life in general never being a sweets/carbs guy save for booze and lemon squares)...I went to craving gatorade, pasta, candy, cookies, etc.  But as you say, beats the fuck outta vomiting bile for hours on end.  Forming/breaking other habits is a cakewalk (pun intended) compared to the real work.  ]\

I know the rewire process, both mentally and physiologically is gonna take a long while.  I'm trying to steel myself for it, it ebbs and flows.  Wife is baffled by it but supportive overall.  Folks in the meetings don't know me a long time, save for a few guys I knew peripherally for work 'n shit.  But my longtime friends in recovery will see me sometimes and they just know it's a good day...they don't even inquire...if I want to talk about it...they're there to listen.  other times, they walk up and see me and immediately their body language changes and it's, "Oh man, how's shit going today?  You wanna talk about it?"  

As you say, we're getting fucking old, gents.  My trigger was just this vague window of time over mid-summer.  I would stop for days, sometimes weeks and the withdrawal was nothing more than a bad headache, maybe one vomit here or there.  But between hitting 46 and the incredible amount of stress my family and businesses were under during covid-19 plus just eating and sleeping like shit.  I stopped again for awhile and my body reacted in a way that scared the ever living shit out of me.  I didn't know it could do shit like that and not die.  Ironically, it was the absence of alcohol, not the over-presence of it that made me realize that I had just hit some point of no return and my biological and psychological relationship with alcohol could no longer continue in that state.  Obviously a lot of work and time left to do, but fuck me the rewiring part is fucking rough.  

Not for nothing, but I quit doing long posts everywhere on the site except here.  But as I read my posts here, I get three minutes like our meetings.  If it takes you more than three minutes to read the above three paragraphs, you may be as dumb as Frank Stallone.  Thanks for listening.  

Edited October 31, 2022 by YGIFS

[hullabelew 3,730]

Anyone else watch Matthew Perry's interview with Diane Sawyer?  Wow.  It was really eye-opening to my wife.   I had told her the same things about myself and she kind of brushed them off as me being weak.  Then, when she hears him say he was taking 50+ Vicodin a day and had been in over 60 detoxes, spending over $7 million in rehabs and hospital stays, I think it finally set in for her.   I have long since given up caring if he gives a shit but it was the first time she acted like she had any sense of understanding what I was going through in that last year of the wheels coming off for me.  

Then, three days ago, the lead singer of one of the bands I play in walked into his house and blew his brains out in front of his wife.  He was 31.  His father-in-law and I are going over to the house to clean up that mess, literally.  

Everyone, please be kind to yourself.   As a friend of mine says, "Stay reachable, stay teachable and stay humble"

[Kennythetiger 9,623]

1 minute ago, hullabelew said:

Anyone else watch Matthew Perry's interview with Diane Sawyer?  Wow.  It was really eye-opening to my wife.   I had told her the same things about myself and she kind of brushed them off as me being weak.  Then, when she hears him say he was taking 50+ Vicodin a day and had been in over 60 detoxes, spending over $7 million in rehabs and hospital stays, I think it finally set in for her.   I have long since given up caring if he gives a shit but it was the first time she acted like she had any sense of understanding what I was going through in that last year of the wheels coming off for me.  

Then, three days ago, the lead singer of one of the bands I play in walked into his house and blew his brains out in front of his wife.  He was 31.  His father-in-law and I are going over to the house to clean up that mess, literally.  

Everyone, please be kind to yourself.   As a friend of mine says, "Stay reachable, stay teachable and stay humble"

I thought of you the other day. I am re-listening to the Forest Fires guy, starting from the first lecture. I think you were the guy who posted his stuff. Thank you. 

[hullabelew 3,730]

9 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

I thought of you the other day. I am re-listening to the Forest Fires guy, starting from the first lecture. I think you were the guy who posted his stuff. Thank you. 

John Clark was one of my counselors at treatment in Nashville.  Dude has an amazing story and does such a great job with that podcast. I'm so happy for him.  Another good one is Cuttin' Grass by Joe Singer.  COMPLETELY different styles.  Joe is just a dude learning how to live sober while John's is more of a closing argument style.   But both are fantastic and vital parts of my recovery.  

 

 

[Celery Man 21,097]

goddamn hulla. beering you strength

stay reachable is a good line and is turning my thought gears

an old coworker buddy of mine was asking me how I was doing with isolation - lots of close relationships at our old shop and he left shortly after I did. he was the only guy in colorado and had felt really isolated - when I was his manager we set up a chat server and used that a lot within the team for both productive stuff as well as chit chat. It was non officially sanctioned so no HR and it was fairly open and authentic. Really helped him out a lot, and he's struggled a bit in the new place making connections again as a remote worker. I'm kinda rambling at this point, but he shared this link which strikes true - dudes lose their friends in adulthood and then stay alone at an alarming clip

https://apple.news/AZCIq6SlyRKKB1npCd6R_0A

there was a great moment in "Candy" on hulu when Jessica Biel's character tells her husband he should spend some time with some other husband in their social circle and he says "I'm not 13 years old, I don't need friends". I think a lot of guys have that attitude. It's rooted in some idea of masculinity, misinterpretation of what it means to be a rugged individual, etc

ever since I've had any kind of responsibility at work I've had a running list of books that have come up or people have suggested I read. the kind of groan inducing ted talk spin off books that often correctly get a lot of flak but sometimes have some useful ideas. i started listening to audiobooks while doing my nightly cleaning this year and have ran through much of that list. "Dare to Lead" by Brene Brown was one of them, and I kinda brushed off a lot of what she was saying in a pretty sexist "this is for my wife's female centric non-profit org" way. I can't imagine using the language that she proposes to work through conflicts with my not nearly diverse enough team of dudes. But really the central thing of the book is about the armor we all put up to protect ourselves - how much we lose by hiding ourselves in that way, and how true courage is about being vulnerable. And over time since listening to that, it's sunk in how much armor I put up all the time, even at home with my wife. That's really some of the power of AA - as alcoholics, we isolate and hide our true selves from the entire world, disappear into ourselves and our sickness. Surfacing only to get more booze or maybe sit at a bar and get a hint of social interaction to keep the depression at bay. And then you can come into this place and be open and everyone gets it.

Lots of rambling - stay reachable. That's a good line Hulla.