Reparations

[David Dennison 18661]

9 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

The answer to this is always, more.

See: the subsidization of white America.

[DixonHur 11228]

Just now, hobbes2702 said:

You don’t see how money helps people who’ve had generational poverty due largely to slavery and us race policy? Really?

You answered your own question with the scope creep.  Was it slavery that caused the issue, or was it racism and racist policies?  If racist policies, it opens the doors to all groups affected by historical racism to collect reparations...including me...and I'd still be against it.

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, DixonHur said:

You answered your own question with the scope creep.  Was it slavery that caused the issue, or was it racism and racist policies?  If racist policies, it opens the doors to all groups affected by historical racism to collect reparations...including me...and I'd still be against it.

African slavery begat the racism and the racist policies.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

It's about providing precedent that any group with a perceived historical grievance against the US, in this case, would be able to seek monetary compensation.  I think that's a bad precedent to set.

So let me get this straight. We should be AGAINST offering compensation to groups of people we've caused incalculable amounts of damage to via our actions?

[Dnaguy 11777]

Bumping a reparations topic:

 

Tell me that Republicans are losing their caravan / open borders / invasion fastball without telling me that Republicans are losing their caravan / open borders / invasion fastball.

[safe sex 11684]

Remember how, after 1993 when we sent reparation cheques to every Japanese American who was interned in concentration camps during WWII, we kept sending them cheque after cheque after cheque because "the answer to this is always, more?"
 

I 'member.

[DixonHur 11228]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I have no problem whatsoever with any group with a historical grievance against the U.S. making their case.

And that's fair, but it would bankrupt the country.  And perhaps that's the solution. 

Maybe we all just move back to the area for which we have the greatest genomic material in our DNA and start over.  Otherwise, I'm back to the bad shit happened in history, let's move on and focus on fixing it for the future.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 minute ago, safe sex said:

Remember how, after 1993 when we sent reparation cheques to every Japanese American who was interned in concentration camps during WWII, we kept sending them cheque after cheque after cheque because "the answer to this is always, more?"
 

I 'member.

Well they're not black.

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, DixonHur said:

And that's fair, but it would bankrupt the country.  And perhaps that's the solution. 

Maybe we all just move back to the area for which we have the greatest genomic material in our DNA and start over.  Otherwise, I'm back to the bad shit happened in history, let's move on and focus on fixing it for the future.

Oh, it would not.

[Brian Fantana 6668]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

And that's fair, but it would bankrupt the country.  And perhaps that's the solution. 

Maybe we all just move back to the area for which we have the greatest genomic material in our DNA and start over.  Otherwise, I'm back to the bad shit happened in history, let's move on and focus on fixing it for the future.

Please provide proof for your claim this would bankrupt the country.

[DixonHur 11228]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

So let me get this straight. We should be AGAINST offering compensation to groups of people we've caused incalculable amounts of damage to via our actions?

Gets back to the "who's we" question in the "our actions".

[hobbes2702 12847]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

You answered your own question with the scope creep.  Was it slavery that caused the issue, or was it racism and racist policies?  If racist policies, it opens the doors to all groups affected by historical racism to collect reparations...including me...and I'd still be against it.

Why does it matter if it was slavery or Jim Crow or segregation? They all created a system of disenfranchising black people, many of whom are descendants of former slaves? The only problem you’ve cited is taxes and the deficit. We could help people without either of those things going up. 

 

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Gets back to the "who's we" question in the "our actions".

The United States of America.

[hobbes2702 12847]

16 minutes ago, achooloco said:

As a Mexican American, fuck you pay me. If I’m getting paid, I’ll consider being for it. If I’m not, I’m not paying a dime. 
 

edit: or I should say I’m not for paying a dime. In the end what I think won’t matter anyway 

Why would you be paying a dime? Are you the United States government?

[Brian Fantana 6668]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Gets back to the "who's we" question in the "our actions".

America. The USA. The country we live in. Our government.

[DixonHur 11228]

7 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Remember how, after 1993 when we sent reparation cheques to every Japanese American who was interned in concentration camps during WWII, we kept sending them cheque after cheque after cheque because "the answer to this is always, more?"
 

I 'member.

Using the math from that settlement, it would cost about $425B and each African-American would get a check for about $10k.  

Couldn't that money be spent in a more productive way?  I think yes, but realize others may disagree.  And that's ok.

[Incredulity 11555]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Using the math from that settlement, it would cost about $425B and each African-American would get a check for about $10k.  

Couldn't that money be spent in a more productive way?  I think yes, but realize others may disagree.  And that's ok.

strange no one else will even discuss a number.

[VRHorn 718]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Using the math from that settlement, it would cost about $425B and each African-American would get a check for about $10k.  

Couldn't that money be spent in a more productive way?  I think yes, but realize others may disagree.  And that's ok.

Well, we spend $800B/year on defense (mostly a jobs program) so...

[DixonHur 11228]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why does it matter if it was slavery or Jim Crow or segregation? They all created a system of disenfranchising black people, many of whom are descendants of former slaves? The only problem you’ve cited is taxes and the deficit. We could help people without either of those things going up. 

Not the only problems, I've cited, but let's go with those.  How do you propose to pay for reparations without higher taxes or lower tax revenues (deficit)?

[David Dennison 18661]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Using the math from that settlement, it would cost about $425B and each African-American would get a check for about $10k.  

Couldn't that money be spent in a more productive way?  I think yes, but realize others may disagree.  And that's ok.

Are you saying that an infusion of $425 billion into the economy wouldn't be productive?

 

[DixonHur 11228]

6 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

America. The USA. The country we live in. Our government.

So everyone who now lives in the US is responsible for slavery?  Are you proposing the "everyone benefited from slavery" argument?  Does that include the decedents of the slaves?  So they'd be paying themselves?  

[Dahobbs 17449]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Not the only problems, I've cited, but let's go with those.  How do you propose to pay for reparations without higher taxes or lower tax revenues (deficit)?

I've already answered this. 

1) Reparations would create economic stimulus resulting in increased tax revenue, offsetting some of the cost

2) Reparations would replace or make unnecessary other forms of welfare, again offsetting some of the cost

3) cuts elsewhere. 

Just now, DixonHur said:

So everyone who now lives in the US is responsible for slavery?  Are you proposing the "everyone benefited from slavery" argument?  Does that include the decedents of the slaves?  So they'd be paying themselves?  

Yes. 

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, DixonHur said:

So everyone who now lives in the US is responsible for slavery?  Are you proposing the "everyone benefited from slavery" argument?  Does that include the decedents of the slaves?  So they'd be paying themselves?  

No, but their government is. 

[DixonHur 11228]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Are you saying that an infusion of $425 billion into the economy wouldn't be productive?

 

Infusion from where?  Some of you people act like there is an infinite pool of money that we can just pass out.  

It's like the Seinfeld write-off scene.  We'll just write it off.  Write it off of what?

[David Dennison 18661]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Infusion from where?  Some of you people act like there is an infinite pool of money that we can just pass out.  

That's literally what money is. 

[MissingInAction 24824]

19 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

So let me get this straight. We should be AGAINST offering compensation to groups of people we've caused incalculable amounts of damage to via our actions?

Who you calling "our people"?

[safe sex 11684]

Or a tax credit, like has been mentioned plenty of times. Jfc, I was making the point that there has been a case already in America where the amount was "enough." And not Incredulity's bitch-made conservative whining about government spending

[DixonHur 11228]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

I've already answered this. 

1) Reparations would create economic stimulus resulting in increased tax revenue, offsetting some of the cost

2) Reparations would replace or make unnecessary other forms of welfare, again offsetting some of the cost

3) cuts elsewhere. 

I'm in agreement on #1, but let's not kid ourselves into believing the offset would be very much.  The vast majoirty would flow to the top of the economic food chain and never make it back to the economy at large...see trickle down economics.

#2 are you suggesting eliminating welfare for those who accept reparations payments?

#3 cuts where exactly?  Social services?  Healthcare?  You know it's not coming from the military budget.

[YChang 3431]

53 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

The other opens a pandora's box.

It's quite probable that everything has unintended consequences. But if you subscribe to some form of making our instituions or society more antifragile... you kinda gotta do it and let it heal and get stronger. Not disagreeing with some of your points either. 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

3 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Infusion from where?  Some of you people act like there is an infinite pool of money that we can just pass out.  

There is. Do you understand how the economy functions?

[DixonHur 11228]

2 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Or a tax credit, like has been mentioned plenty of times. Jfc, I was making the point that there has been a case already in America where the amount was "enough." And not Incredulity's bitch-made conservative whining about government spending

I don't subscribe to @Incredulity's vision of more, more, more by individual groups, but do think it opens the door to everyone with a grievance.  @David Dennison and I'm sure others are fine with that, but I don't see it as sustainable. 

[Brian Fantana 6668]

8 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

So everyone who now lives in the US is responsible for slavery?  Are you proposing the "everyone benefited from slavery" argument?  Does that include the decedents of the slaves?  So they'd be paying themselves?  

No. Yes. Kind of.

[safe sex 11684]

Honestly, if you actually read and process the whole of Ta-Nehisi Coates' essay and are still against reparations for slavery, you need to do some soul-searching. It doesn't make you a racist necessarily, but there are some parts of you that need to be laundered and aired out.

[DixonHur 11228]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

There is. Do you understand how the economy functions?

I do.  I work in finance, but not getting the sense you do.  

So explain it to me like I'm 5.  Where does the money come from and how does it get replenished into the Treasury?  Or if not replenished, what spending cuts are used to offset it?

Unless you're proposing quantitative easing, which has always worked out so well in the past.

[Neonmoon 38127]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Welcome to the world.  People have "stealing" land, enslaving people, and killing innocents since time immemorial.  Hell, no country on earth would exist without it.  But I can't think of another set of people who were ever compensated for it.  The closest I can think of is native tribes in North America getting sovereignty over tiny bits of land.  Most of which isn't even near their ancestral homeland.

I will let the 895 lawyers on this site refute the assertion that a deceased person needs to be awarded a judgment for their heir to file a claim

I agree that the entire world is full of people doing bad shit to get land. I routinely argue against the absurdity of anyone that wants to argue for reclaiming land as a measure to right the wrongs of historical taking/stealing/conquering/whatever. 

However, it is incorrect to assert that people who have been wronged in the past were never compensated monetarily. 

A good example is Germany. (and Austria). They have paid over 80 billion dollars to holocaust survivors and spouses/heirs of the deceased victims. 

[David Dennison 18661]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

I don't subscribe to @Incredulity's vision of more, more, more by individual groups, but do think it opens the door to everyone with a grievance.  @David Dennison and I'm sure others are fine with that, but I don't see it as sustainable. 

I'm not convinced reparations has to be in the form of monetary compensation. The United States has a long history of propping up white America at the expense of marginalized groups. I see no reason why those any or all of those groups can't make the case that they deserve to have their grievances addressed.

[Biff Tannen 45499]

This is all I have to add to this thread.

[Neonmoon 38127]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I do.  I work in finance, but not getting the sense you do.  

So explain it to me like I'm 5.  Where does the money come from and how does it get replenished into the Treasury?  Or if not replenished, what spending cuts are used to offset it?

Unless you're proposing quantitative easing, which has always worked out so well in the past.

You are in finance, and you think quantitative easing wasn't successful? I would LOVE to hear this explanation. And if you bring up crypto or the gold standard, I am putting you on block. 

(edit: nevermind. don't want to threadshit)

[David Dennison 18661]

7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I do.  I work in finance, but not getting the sense you do.  

So explain it to me like I'm 5.  Where does the money come from and how does it get replenished into the Treasury?  Or if not replenished, what spending cuts are used to offset it?

Unless you're proposing quantitative easing, which has always worked out so well in the past.

The Fed literally creates money out of thin air. If you work in finance, you should know this.

[Dahobbs 17449]

7 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'm in agreement on #1, but let's not kid ourselves into believing the offset would be very much.  The vast majoirty would flow to the top of the economic food chain and never make it back to the economy at large...see trickle down economics.

This would be the exact opposite of trickle down economics. The tax benefit would go almost entirely to working class individuals, or are you under the impression that blacks in the US are predominately at the top of the economic food chain?

Quote

#2 are you suggesting eliminating welfare for those who accept reparations payments?

Not directly, no. I'm suggesting that the welfare would become unnecessary because people's economic situations would be improving. 

Quote

#3 cuts where exactly?  Social services?  Healthcare?  You know it's not coming from the military budget.

You want a full budgetary analysis? There are plenty of places where cuts could occur. Personally, I'd cut everything associated with the SLS, give 2/3rds of that back to NASA to spend in a better method and the rest can be cuts. 

[Slacks 6791]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not convinced reparations has to be in the form of monetary compensation. The United States has a long history of propping up white America at the expense of marginalized groups. I see no reason why those any or all of those groups can't make the case that they deserve to have their grievances addressed.

Opportunities (higher education, access to job opportunities, livable equal wages, access to credit, etc, et al) would make great reparations. 

But we know this isn't going to be a thing on a systemic scale, so for those of you who want to repair, be the change and whatnot. 

Be suspicious. 

[DixonHur 11228]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

I will let the 895 lawyers on this site refute the assertion that a deceased person needs to be awarded a judgment for their heir to file a claim

I agree that the entire world is full of people doing bad shit to get land. I routinely argue against the absurdity of anyone that wants to argue for reclaiming land as a measure to right the wrongs of historical taking/stealing/conquering/whatever. 

However, it is incorrect to assert that people who have been wronged in the past were never compensated monetarily. 

A good example is Germany. (and Austria). They have paid over 80 billion dollars to holocaust survivors and spouses/heirs of the deceased victims. 

Yes, and they just did again I think last year.  But tbh, I don't agree with that either.  

Which brings us back to the original political genesis of this discussion.  I don't believe in reparations for past wrongs, period.  I do however believe in forward looking laws and changes in society to try and prevent them from happening again.  

Anyway, @safe sex I will read the article later and return periodically to this discussion, but at some point poppa's gotta get paid today to it's back to work for me.

However, before I go, I'd like to thank everyone  in this discussion for their thoughtful takes on the issue.  It's a hot button issue to be sure and could have quickly devolved into name calling and general tribalism, but hasn't and I think that is a great thing.  Ideas are never bad.  It's reactions to them that can be dangerous.

[Dahobbs 17449]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

I don't believe in reparations for past wrongs, period.

Again, that would literally include any wrong. Car wreck? Past wrong. Assault? Past wrong. I don't think you really know what you believe or have a principled belief here. 

[DixonHur 11228]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'm not convinced reparations has to be in the form of monetary compensation. The United States has a long history of propping up white America at the expense of marginalized groups. I see no reason why those any or all of those groups can't make the case that they deserve to have their grievances addressed.

Damn, it, just when I thought I was out...I don't know that I totally agree with this statement.  But I think you and I differ on the cause.  I don't see it as a race issue.  I see it as a class issue.

I think the US has a long history of propping up the rich.  And historically that has been disproportionately "white" in the way we interpret race today, but what has been considered white in the US has changed over time.  I wouldn't have been considered white 100 years ago.

[DixonHur 11228]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Again, that would literally include any wrong. Car wreck? Past wrong. Assault? Past wrong. I don't think you really know what you believe or have a principled belief here. 

Again, it would not unless perhaps reparations is a legal term.  If so, great, but I think it's clear from the discussion we are talking about historical wrongs perpetrated against people based on enslavement, race, or creed.  Not personal injury cases.

[Dahobbs 17449]

Just now, DixonHur said:

Again, it would not unless perhaps reparations is a legal term.  If so, great, but I think it's clear from the discussion we are talking about historical wrongs perpetrated against people based on enslavement, race, or creed.  Not personal injury cases.

What is the principle in your mind that makes one compensable and the other not? That's what I'm trying to get out of you and what I don't think you've thought through. 

[DixonHur 11228]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The Fed literally creates money out of thin air. If you work in finance, you should know this.

That's called quantitative easing...and was mentioned in the post you are replying to.   It has as bad, if not worse of a track record than trickle down.

Just now, Dahobbs said:

What is the principle in your mind that makes one compensable and the other not? That's what I'm trying to get out of you and what I don't think you've thought through. 

The direct and provable link between the injured party and the payee.

[Dahobbs 17449]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That's called quantitative easing...and was mentioned in the post you are replying to.   It has as bad, if not worse of a track record than trickle down.

The direct and provable link between the injured party and the payee.

Ok, so if we could prove a direct link between slavery that was legalized and supported by the United States government and damages caused by systemic racism, then you'd agree the United States government would owe compensation, correct? 

[Incredulity 11555]

31 minutes ago, safe sex said:

I was making the point that there has been a case already in America where the amount was "enough." And not Incredulity's bitch-made conservative whining about government spending

L O fucking L

sign me the fuck up as onboard for reparations.

Reparations day PLUS 1 there is no further need for affirmative action or any other race based allocation of public resources or any other preference.  Deal?

[safe sex 11684]

Cloak Room is so fuckin' mean i stg 😭