Reparations

[DixonHur 11228]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Fine. Take it from the Pentagon.

Done and done.

Dude, we're on the same team there.  The military budget is outrageous, but good luck getting that past the military industrial complex.

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

That's called quantitative easing...and was mentioned in the post you are replying to.   It has as bad, if not worse of a track record than trickle down.

 

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Fuck it

No, it doesn’t have an as bad or worse track record than trickle down economics. 

QE was used successfully to combat the GFC in 2008 and during Covid as it addressed the problem of the zero lower bound. We can argue about the degree of success or the timing of success, but to say QE didn’t work is incorrect. 

Trickle Down Economics has been proven repeatedly to be unsound. Tax Cuts for Corporations do not stimulate the economy and there is tons of data out there to prove it. 
 

 

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

I suggest you read Fifty Shades of QE.  

 

33 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

That's the conclusion of the authors, not the studies.  Even the academic studies that found that QE helped, found that it either barely helped, or was way under what the banks said it did.  I trust the academics more than the banks, who have a vested interest in showing improvement.  I aways write glowing self reviews too.

What these studies don't take into effect are the long-term downsides.  It's a ponzi scheme.  The Fed pays interest on the reserves it holds for banks and it uses those reserves to finance its purchases of long-term bonds. Now that the interest rate has increased to fight inflation, the Fed must pay more for reserves than it's getting from the bonds in its portfolio, and its losing money.

Cheap money distorts risk, so people take on more debt thinking the gravy train will last forever, but it's a shell game.  Eventually the piper must get paid.  Look at what happened after the financial crisis of 2008 you mentioned earlier.  Housing prices exploded as debt became cheap, but now that interest rates are going up, how will the next generation afford housing?  How will those with bloated valuations on their homes make a profit?  Look at Wall Street.  Looks great, but I submit its a mirage and we are all in for a rude awakening sooner rather than later.

 

25 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I feel like you're reading it with confirmation bias without understand the terms.   That's economic output.  Meaning more things are produced, and likely sold.  IE the economy is growing.  But that's a short-term effect.  How will the debts be repaid?  QE is like going to the $10 all-you-can-eat buffet everyday and then wondering why you have $100,000 in medical bills a few years later.  It's a ponzi scheme and when the bill comes due we're in for a hell of a ride.

Nothing is free...least of which, money.

Why do you think Americans have record debt?  

 

18 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Predicably you guys are cherry picking data points that support your idea.  I challenge you to read the entire report, as well as others on the topic and let me know if you still think QE is a good long-term solution.  

 

9 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Well, if you'd been following the discussion my point was that QE is as bad if not worse than trickledown.  I suggested he read this paper because it wasn't clear he truly understood what QE was.  Of course, when I read it a couple of years ago, I saw warning lights, but apparently that wasn't the case with you guys.

"It has as bad, if not worse of a track record than trickle down"

That was your original statement, which is not supported by any facts. Even by the paper you supplied as evidence doesn't support your original statement. Now you want to move the goal posts and talk about the future consequences of QE, which has nothing to do with the TRACK RECORD of QE. 

I would love the discuss the long term implications of QE with a fellow finance brother. (in another thread)

Off to stimulate the economy. Later

 

[DixonHur 11228]

5 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

"It has as bad, if not worse of a track record than trickle down"

That was your original statement, which is not supported by any facts. Even by the paper you supplied as evidence doesn't support your original statement. Now you want to move the goal posts and talk about the future consequences of QE, which has nothing to do with the TRACK RECORD of QE. 

I would love the discuss the long term implications of QE with a fellow finance brother. (in another thread)

Off to stimulate the economy. Later

 

Fair enough.  I stand by my statements.  Perhaps, I use too much hyperbole (Note: I do), I think QE is horrible.  

[DixonHur 11228]

16 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

That was your original statement, which is not supported by any facts. Even by the paper you supplied as evidence doesn't support your original statement. Now you want to move the goal posts and talk about the future consequences of QE, which has nothing to do with the TRACK RECORD of QE. 

Just a side note, I disagree with this statement. 

Half the studies showed QE didn't work and the others said the banks greatly overstated the success.  To me that says we've been sold a bill of goods by the banks.  And none of the studies include any forward looking projections.

But we can take it up on another thread. 

[Blotto 23434]

21 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

But we can take it up on another thread. 

Please do, its a fucking annoyance in this thread

[DixonHur 11228]

50 minutes ago, Blotto said:

Please do, its a fucking annoyance in this thread

Lol, this thread was dormant for 3 years, and you hadn't posted anything in it until this gem, but you're totally really into it.

[Blotto 23434]

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Lol, this thread was dormant for 3 years, and you hadn't posted anything in it until this gem, but you're totally really into it.

What the fuck does that matter, I'm reading the thread now and all this dick-slapping about QE effectiveness is a waste of my valuable time. Its not like I'm a Surly lawyer and can just bill  my clients. 

[DixonHur 11228]

28 minutes ago, Blotto said:

What the fuck does that matter, I'm reading the thread now and all this dick-slapping about QE effectiveness is a waste of my valuable time. Its not like I'm a Surly lawyer and can just bill  my clients. 

When you're posting about your bowel movements, does that constitute valuable time?  Just trying to understand where you draw the line on wasted time.

 

[Blotto 23434]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

When you're posting about your bowel movements, does that constitute valuable time?  Just trying to understand where you draw the line on wasted time.

 

Only when I'm posting my bowel movements on your mom's chest. 

[DixonHur 11228]

Just now, Blotto said:

Only when I'm posting my bowel movements on your mom's chest. 

She's dead and cremated so good luck.

[Slacks 6791]

On 2/9/2024 at 12:19 PM, DixonHur said:

Damn, it, just when I thought I was out...I don't know that I totally agree with this statement.  But I think you and I differ on the cause.  I don't see it as a race issue.  I see it as a class issue.

I think the US has a long history of propping up the rich.  And historically that has been disproportionately "white" in the way we interpret race today, but what has been considered white in the US has changed over time.  I wouldn't have been considered white 100 years ago.

You mean rich like the Greenwood District before it was burned to the ground and all the rich negroes were pretty much killed? Is that the type of class issue you see it as?

Unfortunately, the US has a REAL history of not allowing the black race to attain "rich" (wealthy) UNLESS it is via the entertainment of white people. It's not just class. There are, what, two first generation black billionaires that are not entertainers. 2.5 if you want to include Alex Karp.  Fwiw, any / all U.S. black billionaires are first gen (there are about 12, including the entertainers.) All of the FAANG founders are first gen wealthy. Any one of them has more wealth than all of the US black billionaires combined.

Hell, I know caterers / restauranteurs who are worth mid-8 figures. They weren't born rich. They were born (and still are) white. Did they work to get there? Of course. Are they unique for working hard? Not at all. We know people right here on this site that are rich and it wasn't because they came from rich class... It's also not solely because they are white, but if you think the access to opportunity was the same for them as any black person, I would like to offer you a prime piece of ocean front property adjacent to South Mountain.

Look, I celebrate for everyone who makes it and everyone who is going to, but let's not bullshit ourselves. The wealth of this country was built on "a race issue". 

They don't think it be that way, but it do be.

 

Suspicious.

[DixonHur 11228]

9 hours ago, Slacks said:

You mean rich like the Greenwood District before it was burned to the ground and all the rich negroes were pretty much killed? Is that the type of class issue you see it as?

Unfortunately, the US has a REAL history of not allowing the black race to attain "rich" (wealthy) UNLESS it is via the entertainment of white people. It's not just class. There are, what, two first generation black billionaires that are not entertainers. 2.5 if you want to include Alex Karp.  Fwiw, any / all U.S. black billionaires are first gen (there are about 12, including the entertainers.) All of the FAANG founders are first gen wealthy. Any one of them has more wealth than all of the US black billionaires combined.

Hell, I know caterers / restauranteurs who are worth mid-8 figures. They weren't born rich. They were born (and still are) white. Did they work to get there? Of course. Are they unique for working hard? Not at all. We know people right here on this site that are rich and it wasn't because they came from rich class... It's also not solely because they are white, but if you think the access to opportunity was the same for them as any black person, I would like to offer you a prime piece of ocean front property adjacent to South Mountain.

Look, I celebrate for everyone who makes it and everyone who is going to, but let's not bullshit ourselves. The wealth of this country was built on "a race issue". 

They don't think it be that way, but it do be.

 

Suspicious.

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

But if you where black in which country would want to be born?  IE, statistically which country gives you the best chance at attaining wealth?

You point out negative extremes but think about the question rationallly.  The US has about 4% of the world's black population, yet 53% of the world's black billionaires.

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person.

[safe sex 11684]

Wee-ow.

[Goredho 17349]

3 hours ago, DixonHur said:

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person billionaire.

Fixed it for you.

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

4 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

But if you where black in which country would want to be born?  IE, statistically which country gives you the best chance at attaining wealth?

You point out negative extremes but think about the question rationallly.  The US has about 4% of the world's black population, yet 53% of the world's black billionaires.

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person.

Such a weird question. What race is this not true for? 

[Neonmoon 38127]

5 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

But if you where black in which country would want to be born?  IE, statistically which country gives you the best chance at attaining wealth?

You point out negative extremes but think about the question rationallly.  The US has about 4% of the world's black population, yet 53% of the world's black billionaires.

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person.

 The burning down of black neighborhoods wasn’t a negative extreme. It was common. Which is one of many reasons blacks have always been in a certain poorer class. They were suppressed, specifically by the government in many cases, which is the point of the entire thread. Pointing out a few black billionaires doesn’t negate the entire injustices of the past 300 years. It’s like saying yeah, we burned down your great grandparents house but at least you don’t live in Botswana. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 The burning down of black neighborhoods wasn’t a negative extreme. It was common. Which is one of many reasons blacks have always been in a certain poorer class. They were suppressed, specifically by the government in many cases, which is the point of the entire thread. Pointing out a few black billionaires doesn’t negate the entire injustices of the past 300 years. It’s like saying yeah, we burned down your great grandparents house but at least you don’t live in Botswana. 

Even if it is a negative extreme, think about it for a second.  

In what other first, or even second, world country are neighborhoods or towns of any composition invaded and destroyed by fellow citizens in a non-military adventure?

That bespeaks something truly fucked up and unjust.

That said, I don't believe America or Americans are inherently uniquely racist compared to the rest of the world.  But the institution of slavery, in addition to its inherent evils, placed a sizable portion of subjugated others right smack in the midst of a bunch of white folks.  That's going to cause serious problems wherever you do it, especially in the mid-19th century. And especially if the legal and social institutions don't act robustly to minimize or eliminate the consequences.

And we did that to ourselves and we're paying for it to this day, as a nation.  I am not sure reparations are worth it, but I can't exclude them from consideration.

Edited February 11 by TwiceHorn

[David Dennison 18661]

7 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

But if you where black in which country would want to be born?  IE, statistically which country gives you the best chance at attaining wealth?

You point out negative extremes but think about the question rationallly.  The US has about 4% of the world's black population, yet 53% of the world's black billionaires.

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person.

What percentage of America's billionaires are black?

[DixonHur 11228]

5 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Such a weird question. What race is this not true for? 

In a sense that's the point.  But the reparations question we're discussing is specifically about African-Americans and the legacy of slavery.  Thus the focus on African-Americans.

5 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

 The burning down of black neighborhoods wasn’t a negative extreme. It was common. Which is one of many reasons blacks have always been in a certain poorer class. They were suppressed, specifically by the government in many cases, which is the point of the entire thread. Pointing out a few black billionaires doesn’t negate the entire injustices of the past 300 years. It’s like saying yeah, we burned down your great grandparents house but at least you don’t live in Botswana. 

It also wasn't unique in the American experience.  Ask the Native Americans, the Catholics, the Jewish, the Irish, the Italians, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Muslims, LGBTQ, etc., etc. etc.  

Come to think of it, maybe the problem is American protestants, since they've been leading that charge since day 1...and still are, I'm looking at you MAGA.

Also, keep in mind that ethnic violence isn't relegated to the US.  Every culture does and has done it...again, my favorite word on the subject is schizogenesis, not just because it's fun to say, but also because it's true.  We, humans, love to find difference between us so we can justify carrying out atrocities.  The peoples of the African continent are no different.  Burning neighborhoods is child's play in comparison to much of the ethnic violence in Africa.

The point is that things are always changing, and on average, African-Americans today enjoy better lives, with greater opportunities for upward mobility in the US than they would have had their ancestors not been brought to America as slaves...or had been taken to Brazil for example.

NO...I'm not extolling the virtues of slavery, so don't be intellectually lazy.  Let me be clear...slavery is BAD.  

But I don't see the need to monetarily compensate decedents 5, 6 or 7 generations after the fact when on average they are statistically not bad off. 

% of US Millionaires by demographic:

1. Asian - 6% of population, 8% of millionaires
2. White - 76% of population, 76% of millionaires
3. African Americans - 14% of population, 8% of the millionaires
4. Hispanic - 19% of population, 7% of millionaires

For comparison, only 0.014% of black Africans are millionaires.  In other words, a black person in the US, has a 224x greater chance at becoming a millionaire here than Africa. 

So, while we're certainly not living in a "post-racial" America, the situation for African Americans has improved greatly since the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and will continue to improve over time.  I'd prefer to continue building on the progress that's been made than monetary reparations.  But clearly many here disagree.  And that's good.  IMO, it's healthy to have the debate.

[safe sex 11684]

Did you get around to reading the Ta-Nehisi Coates essay, @DixonHur?

[Neonmoon 38127]

12 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

In a sense that's the point.  But the reparations question we're discussing is specifically about African-Americans and the legacy of slavery.  Thus the focus on African-Americans.

It also wasn't unique in the American experience.  Ask the Native Americans, the Catholics, the Jewish, the Irish, the Italians, the Mexicans, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Muslims, LGBTQ, etc., etc. etc.  

Come to think of it, maybe the problem is American protestants, since they've been leading that charge since day 1...and still are, I'm looking at you MAGA.

Also, keep in mind that ethnic violence isn't relegated to the US.  Every culture does and has done it...again, my favorite word on the subject is schizogenesis, not just because it's fun to say, but also because it's true.  We, humans, love to find difference between us so we can justify carrying out atrocities.  The peoples of the African continent are no different.  Burning neighborhoods is child's play in comparison to much of the ethnic violence in Africa.

The point is that things are always changing, and on average, African-Americans today enjoy better lives, with greater opportunities for upward mobility in the US than they would have had their ancestors not been brought to America as slaves...or had been taken to Brazil for example.

NO...I'm not extolling the virtues of slavery, so don't be intellectually lazy.  Let me be clear...slavery is BAD.  

But I don't see the need to monetarily compensate decedents 5, 6 or 7 generations after the fact when on average they are statistically not bad off. 

% of US Millionaires by demographic:

1. Asian - 6% of population, 8% of millionaires
2. White - 76% of population, 76% of millionaires
3. African Americans - 14% of population, 8% of the millionaires
4. Hispanic - 19% of population, 7% of millionaires

For comparison, only 0.014% of black Africans are millionaires.  In other words, a black person in the US, has a 224x greater chance at becoming a millionaire here than Africa. 

So, while we're certainly not living in a "post-racial" America, the situation for African Americans has improved greatly since the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and will continue to improve over time.  I'd prefer to continue building on the progress that's been made than monetary reparations.  But clearly many here disagree.  And that's good.  IMO, it's healthy to have the debate.

No one is arguing that we shouldn’t continue to build on the progress. You’re the person making it a choice between continuing to build on progress or monetary reparations. It doesn’t have to be a choice. It can be both. 

Current Billionaire and Millionaire statistics don’t eliminate the large racial wealth gap between white and black households, a gap that the Federal government was crucial in sustaining for decades. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the issue you seem to have is the decedents don’t deserve the money? Or it won’t do any good, unlike other programs?

I think we can kill 2 birds with one stone. Decedents can apply for home loan and get a reduced interest rate by the Federal government. They still have to qualify with assets, income, and credit but can receive a 1% or 2% interest rate. Their payments would be much less, and they could afford a nicer house. They’re still paying for the house just subsidized. In fact, we could include Native Americans and Japanese Internment victims. 

[Nivek 16861]

5 hours ago, David Dennison said:

What percentage of America's billionaires are black?

I watch Shark Tank, and we got old lady, middle aged lady, white bald guy, immigrant son with good hair, black dude, and guy who sounds Cuban.  So that means, 1/6th.   

[DixonHur 11228]

35 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Did you get around to reading the Ta-Nehisi Coates essay, @DixonHur?

Yes.  It's terrible, but it doesn't move me to the monetary reparations camp.   

I think the descendants of folks who had their land stolen should be allowed to sue for their family land back, just as was done with Bruce's Beach in California.  The predetory loan aspects should be civil cases against the companies, such as Wells Fargo who profited off them.   

I tend to agree with Charles Ogletree's vision of job training and public works mentioned in the essay.

[DixonHur 11228]

53 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

No one is arguing that we shouldn’t continue to build on the progress. You’re the person making it a choice between continuing to build on progress or monetary reparations. It doesn’t have to be a choice. It can be both. 

Current Billionaire and Millionaire statistics don’t eliminate the large racial wealth gap between white and black households, a gap that the Federal government was crucial in sustaining for decades. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the issue you seem to have is the decedents don’t deserve the money? Or it won’t do any good, unlike other programs?

I think we can kill 2 birds with one stone. Decedents can apply for home loan and get a reduced interest rate by the Federal government. They still have to qualify with assets, income, and credit but can receive a 1% or 2% interest rate. Their payments would be much less, and they could afford a nicer house. They’re still paying for the house just subsidized. In fact, we could include Native Americans and Japanese Internment victims. 

Deserve is a subjective term that I'm not prepared to use, but otherwise the sentiment is pretty accurate.

I like your idea of "socialized" mortgage rates, but I wouldn't base it on race.  I think it should be income based.  

[safe sex 11684]

12 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Yes.  It's terrible, but it doesn't move me to the monetary reparations camp.   

I think the descendants of folks who had their land stolen should be allowed to sue for their family land back, just as was done with Bruce's Beach in California.  The predetory loan aspects should be civil cases against the companies, such as Wells Fargo who profited off them.   

I tend to agree with Charles Ogletree's vision of job training and public works mentioned in the essay.

As long as something happens.

[Incredulity 11555]

found @David Dennison in the wild

 

[Slacks 6791]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:41 PM, DixonHur said:

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

But if you where black in which country would want to be born?  IE, statistically which country gives you the best chance at attaining wealth?

You point out negative extremes but think about the question rationallly.  The US has about 4% of the world's black population, yet 53% of the world's black billionaires.

For all of America's racial flaws, its still arguably the best place to live as a black person.

Nice try. 

Where the Billionaires are is Irrelevant to the topic... And supports the statement I made. Entertain and you can be a billionaire. Otherwise, there are two in the US. 

What's your point again? How is that relevant to how the country was built? 

[DixonHur 11228]

22 minutes ago, Slacks said:

Nice try. 

Where the Billionaires are is Irrelevant to the topic... And supports the statement I made. Entertain and you can be a billionaire. Otherwise, there are two in the US. 

What's your point again? How is that relevant to how the country was built? 

IDGAF about how this country was built any more than I do about how ancient Roman was built. 

The past is great to study, but only in the context of what lessons can be learned to use in the present and future.  There's nothing anyone do can erase, change or in any way affect the past, but we can change how things are going forward.  That's my focus.

[YChang 3431]

I don’t think most will disagree with your desire to move things forward. It’s challenging to do so when we fail to acknowledge and study our history though. Rather than say sweep it under the rug (not saying that’s what you’’re advocating for) and just proclaim let’s move forward! Especially when some of the inherent disadvantage for Black Americans and other minorities are still baked into some of our institutions.

[DixonHur 11228]

2 minutes ago, YChang said:

I don’t think most will disagree with your desire to move things forward. It’s challenging to do so when we fail to acknowledge and study our history though. Rather than say sweep it under the rug (not saying that’s what you’’re advocating for) and just proclaim let’s move forward! Especially when some of the inherent disadvantage for Black Americans and other minorities are still baked into some of our institutions.

Not sweeping anything under the rug.  Just don't think monetary payments to the 6th and 7th generation after slavery is the way to go.  

Acknowledge, and learn from the past, but move forward.  That's all I'm saying.

[Slacks 6791]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Not sweeping anything under the rug.  Just don't think monetary payments to the 6th and 7th generation after slavery is the way to go.  

Acknowledge, and learn from the past, but move forward.  That's all I'm saying.

I don't think monetary payments are the solution (as I meetings in a previous post). 

I do think money is the path of least resistance and better than nothing. 

"Move forward" is hard to do when the pace of movement is determined by the past and there is a compound effect. 

It would be great if everyone really meant 'move forward'. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:41 AM, DixonHur said:

Quick question.  I'm assuming you're white.

Bruh.  Slacks are not just for white guys.  
 

I like the subsidized/reduced mortgage interest rates more than most other ideas I’ve heard.  I’m assuming that’s for the first or second home purchase?  Some type of grants or reduced interest college loans, etc would do a lot of move people forward and secure wealth for the next generation(s) 

[DixonHur 11228]

20 minutes ago, Slacks said:

I don't think monetary payments are the solution (as I meetings in a previous post). 

I do think money is the path of least resistance and better than nothing. 

"Move forward" is hard to do when the pace of movement is determined by the past and there is a compound effect. 

It would be great if everyone really meant 'move forward'. 

I hear you, but while often frustrating, societal change is extremely slow moving.  

Look how long it took the LGBTQ+ community to get equal rights (in Western civilization).  The Greeks outlawed homosexuality in 380AD, and while there are short periods in the intervening years where homosexuality was tolerated, IE you weren't killed for being gay, it wasn't until 2020 that hiring discrimination based on sexual orientation was outlawed in the US.

By comparison rights for African-Americans have come at lighting speed.  

And while I know racism is alive and well in America, I also believe it has lessened...don't let the MAGAts fool you.  They've just been emboldened to say out loud what many more people said in private in the past.

[elfenix 34172]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:01 PM, Neonmoon said:

I was writing a quick summary about redlining for work, and reading the history of it, and am still blown away. The US government made it systemically harder for minorities to get loans, and research has show these redlined families have achieved something like 42% less wealth through property because of it. When you realize most people achieve wealth through homeownership, it’s a big deal. (Same could be said for women that needed a man to get a loan for a loan time)

I once was a ‘it’s not a race issue, it’s a class issue’ person for a long time, but the more you learn, the more you realize there’s a pretty big fucking reason a certain race is in a certain class. 

"oh, that redline thing, that was wrong and we're going to stop.

 

"but that interstate we built on the redline?  that stays."

 

[Dnaguy 11777]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:21 PM, DixonHur said:

Dude, we're on the same team there.  The military budget is outrageous, but good luck getting that past the military industrial complex.

What if the reparations are paid in jets, tanks, or bullets?

 

Edited February 13 by Dnaguy