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fuggled

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fuggled

fuggled 576

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So, I'm in Dallas and insurance approved replacing my roof thanks to some recent hail damage.  The contractor I'm talking with said two things that gave me pause.

First, the insurance estimate calls for the drip edge to be replaced.  The contractor suggested they can leave the existing drip edge  (to avoid taking down the gutters) and just install underlayment over the drip edge.  I'm not a roofer, but that doesn't sound like best practice to me.  Is he trying to take a shortcut to save time?

Second, the contractor suggested that the money saved by skipping the drip edge could be used on something else (like upgraded shingles) or be used to reduce my deductible.  I asked how that would work and his answer was basically, "we'll just charge you for less, it's all really a numbers game."  That sounded shady (and maybe illegal based on a quick Google check).

Am I way off base here?  Is this sketchy or is it standard procedure?

@ROFL BOX I know you usually have all the answers here.

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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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5 hours ago, fuggled said:

So, I'm in Dallas and insurance approved replacing my roof thanks to some recent hail damage.  The contractor I'm talking with said two things that gave me pause.

First, the insurance estimate calls for the drip edge to be replaced.  The contractor suggested they can leave the existing drip edge  (to avoid taking down the gutters) and just install underlayment over the drip edge.  I'm not a roofer, but that doesn't sound like best practice to me.  Is he trying to take a shortcut to save time?

Second, the contractor suggested that the money saved by skipping the drip edge could be used on something else (like upgraded shingles) or be used to reduce my deductible.  I asked how that would work and his answer was basically, "we'll just charge you for less, it's all really a numbers game."  That sounded shady (and maybe illegal based on a quick Google check).

Am I way off base here?  Is this sketchy or is it standard procedure?

@ROFL BOX I know you usually have all the answers here.

I'm going to send you a PM & also, @deadshank is correct on his response.

He's pre-med, I'm pre-math.

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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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Yes, the drip edge actually DOES get damaged on removing the felt or whatever vapor barrier you have.

If the drip edge isn't coming off, that means the vapor barrier most likely isn't coming off either.  & That means you are getting multiple layers of felt or whatever is up there & that means any potential damage to the perimeter of the roof is going to have overlooked problems.  If there are gutters with no leaf protection system & a reasonable tree issue close by, chances are you have some rotten wood somewhere, especially if you have a hip roof... the hip tips are suspect (which is why we do certain things for those areas).

Check yer PM's.

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MonkeyDoughnut

MonkeyDoughnut 10,236

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I had a couple roofers who wouldn't even quote my roof replacement when I said I might not use insurance because my deductible was high (ie. I was going to pay them cash).

These guys are the slime of the roofing industry and seem a large percentage. If you wonder why your home insurance is high, look no further than these guys.

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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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2 hours ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

I had a couple roofers who wouldn't even quote my roof replacement when I said I might not use insurance because my deductible was high (ie. I was going to pay them cash).

These guys are the slime of the roofing industry and seem a large percentage. If you wonder why your home insurance is high, look no further than these guys.

If the insurance adjustment is even $ 1.00 higher than your deductible, why would you want a cash job?  Trying to understand your situation.

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MonkeyDoughnut

MonkeyDoughnut 10,236

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The reputable guys will quote it the same with or without. The un-reputable guys will try and sock it to your insurance company with whatever they can get away with.  The un-reputable quotes came in around double the other quotes.  I ended up going with a highly recommended company that was $1K less than my deductible for exactly the same materials.

If a roofer is ok screwing your insurance company, he's ok screwing you as well.

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deadshank

deadshank 24,653

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1 hour ago, MonkeyDoughnut said:

The reputable guys will quote it the same with or without. The un-reputable guys will try and sock it to your insurance company with whatever they can get away with.  The un-reputable quotes came in around double the other quotes.  I ended up going with a highly recommended company that was $1K less than my deductible for exactly the same materials.

If a roofer is ok screwing your insurance company, he's ok screwing you as well.

This has come up in trial.  I do some expert witness work for some insurance defense attorneys when roof replacement and insurance coverage  is the crux of the case.  On more than one occasion, dummy storm chaser roofing contractor admitted while on the stand that they "charge more" if insurance funds are available when compared to regular, non-insurance money funded roof replacements.  

When asked why they did this they replied, "uh, it's insurance money."

The judges and juries were not pleased with that answer.

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deadshank

deadshank 24,653

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14 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

Yes, the drip edge actually DOES get damaged on removing the felt or whatever vapor barrier you have.

If the drip edge isn't coming off, that means the vapor barrier most likely isn't coming off either.  & That means you are getting multiple layers of felt or whatever is up there & that means any potential damage to the perimeter of the roof is going to have overlooked problems.  If there are gutters with no leaf protection system & a reasonable tree issue close by, chances are you have some rotten wood somewhere, especially if you have a hip roof... the hip tips are suspect (which is why we do certain things for those areas).

Check yer PM's.

If the gutters are attached with hidden hangers that are screwed through the face of the drip edge then the drip edge may need to remain.  Swapping out felt paper underlayment is easy enough becuase underlayment goes on top of the drip edge at the eaves where the gutters are and under the drip edge at the rakes (you know this).  Changing out drip edge at the rakes is easy enough.

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  • 4 months later...
Dbeasy

Dbeasy 15,051

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I’m trying to get a rough sense of the cost to replace a roof. It’s a 3564 sq ft one story house with high arches. What’s a rough range assuming reasonable shingles. I’m selling the house and a buyer wants a credit towards roof replacement. It’s a 16 year old roof.

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deadshank

deadshank 24,653

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jkwellborn said:

What’s a good product to keep leaves out of the gutters? I’ve got a giant oak tree in my back yard that keeps them full until the leaves are gone.

A ladder, a plastic garbage bag and  your hand.

In our experience, Gutter Helmet looks like hell and doesn't work as advertised.

Regular  mid-size opening gutter screen (a version of smallish chicken wire) is OK but will let smaller stuff in and then you must remove the screen, clean out the infiltrating small debris by hand and re-attach the gutter screen.

Super fine mesh screen is expensive and keeps everything out but also keeps debris on top of the screen and the water passes over the gutter and not into it.

There are some products that is extruded to match the profile (ogee / K-style) of the gutter that is placed inside the gutter to discplace debris but it also discplaces rain water.  They don't work too well either.

We've installed miles of gutters over the years and all types (ogee / K-style; half-round; quarter-round, box and some real oddities).  There is no magic bullet or "best" mouse trap.

Bottom line: keep your money in your pocket and clean out your gutters by hand.

One thing I do advise people to get are downspout cleanouts.  The are trap doors that can be installed toward the bottom of your downspouts.  Open the doors by hand and pull out the debris that gets built up in your downspouts and caught by the strainer that is built into the cleanout.  They can be bought on-line from K&M Sheet Metal out of NC.  They are worth the money as they actually work as advertised.

 

Edited by deadshank
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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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3 hours ago, Jkwellborn said:

I normally clean them by hand. I’ll take a blower and use it too if everything is dry.

If you don't mind the debris potentially landing on the side of your house, a leaf blower is gonna work well.

This one is something I always suggest:
Extended Reach Gutter Cleaning Wand

Something like this is also sold @ Home Depot, you can get via Amazon, etc.  Connects to the garden hose, has a on / off lever @ the bottom of the deal where it connects to your hose.
We sell & install the LeaFree system & like DeadShank, I explain to customers that it is going to work to probably 75% of your expectations but nothing is perfect.  Have installed it for some Shaggers, maybe they can give a testamonial?

Typically $ 11.50 per linear ft, so not cheap.  Add cost for 2 story, inside miters, etc.

https://www.thegreenhead.com/2009/03/extended-reach-gutter-cleaning-wand.php
 

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deadshank

deadshank 24,653

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16 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

If you don't mind the debris potentially landing on the side of your house, a leaf blower is gonna work well.

This one is something I always suggest:
Extended Reach Gutter Cleaning Wand

Something like this is also sold @ Home Depot, you can get via Amazon, etc.  Connects to the garden hose, has a on / off lever @ the bottom of the deal where it connects to your hose.
We sell & install the LeaFree system & like DeadShank, I explain to customers that it is going to work to probably 75% of your expectations but nothing is perfect.  Have installed it for some Shaggers, maybe they can give a testamonial?

Typically $ 11.50 per linear ft, so not cheap.  Add cost for 2 story, inside miters, etc.

https://www.thegreenhead.com/2009/03/extended-reach-gutter-cleaning-wand.php
 

Is that you in the background operating the sprayer?

If so, you're kinda cute.

For a butterface.

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  • 5 months later...
Beau Vine

Beau Vine 54,230

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6 minutes ago, RexWilson said:

After today's storm, my car has hail damage. What's the best process for determining if my roof has damage? Two story house with high pitch so I'm not wanting to get up there.

You should be completely swarmed by roof repairmen knocking on your door within the next couple of days.

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C-Man

C-Man 27,229

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After today's storm, my car has hail damage. What's the best process for determining if my roof has damage? Two story house with high pitch so I'm not wanting to get up there.

Reach out to a reputable roofer in your area and have them come take a look. They’ll do it for free. Do NOT talk to assholes who come knocking on your door.
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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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After today's storm, my car has hail damage. What's the best process for determining if my roof has damage? Two story house with high pitch so I'm not wanting to get up there.
Send me your info via email.

RestorationEmail/yahoo.com

I was actually on a gutter measurement today (Burnet) when it started to rain.

We stepped into the garage & *blammo*, hail comes down.

10 minutes later, the customer is on the roof with me. 2 year old house, roof is a total loss.

Heard Bertram had golf ball sized whacks & Round Rock near 620 / 35 area got tossed as well.

First time I have ever been with a customer when hail has come down. It's like you're a lawyer & in the next lane over stopped @ a traffic light when a semi plows into another vehicle.0aae9251bb99052025ad762f905e66dc.jpg64ef59d4c4fa99cc1ec0a2d43b8880c4.jpgfcd1954c2ee5103a4ff1db921099b41f.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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fuggled

fuggled 576

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On 4/16/2021 at 12:30 AM, ROFL BOX said:

Can you please comment on our work & your chimney "bonus"?

For sure.  I was working with a neighborhood roofed in Dallas who started acting sketchy.  @ROFL BOX swooped in from Dripping Springs to help get us sorted out.  Since the house is 60 years old, he was really helpful in pointing out things he could upgrade for us at no added cost.  The trickiest bit was our chimney that he mentioned.  The chimney is along the edge of the roof and had been broken (bricks knocked out) and was capped in a half-assed way.  The previous roofer didn't offer any advice on it.  Box explained the right way to route water around it coming down the roof.  Then he suggested how we could just take it down and deck over it.  Turned out to be a really great solution and he did it without increasing our cost.  I definitely recommend Box as someone who is thorough and takes the time to think about all the options for you.

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ROFL BOX

ROFL BOX 6,649

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 Also, @fuggled had gutter damage that was overlooked by the field / contract adjuster.  Got a few pics, supplemental conversation with the insurance desk adjuster & bingo, new gutters as well.  IIRC, they had a 5" & we upgrayedja to a 6" (haven't reviewed your docs, could be wrong there).  I think we kept his original downspouts because that was a custom paint color different from the gutters, but we still had some thought process in there anyhow.

 

All of the added stuff was within his deductible.  ANYTHING that gets storm damaged is part of the same deductible.  Screens, window beading / trim, garage door dings, chimney caps, lawn furniture, Q grill covers, the grill itself if there are dents, kids playhouses, swingsets, trampolines, fencing (provided it is stained & gets dings that show the raw wood or actual splits).
 

Again, folks - pay attention to what your deductible is.  You can have a lower monthly premium but that's a higher deductible.  You can have a lower deductible but that's a higher monthly premium.  & As of 01 Sept. 2019, waiving deductibles is against the law here in Texas... which is why I try to throw in upgrades & better quality components / labor, but that deductible has to be paid.

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  • 5 months later...
C-Man

C-Man 27,229

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On 10/13/2021 at 10:35 PM, ROFL BOX said:

FYI... Y'all *REALLY* need to pay attention to the policies you are purchasing or being shuffled into.ffe60f3716e026b9769b8f2da1a562f4.jpg66502042288dc0005e4b41a676f6646d.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
 

Correct. But Allstate isn't the only one doing this these days but they're one of the most egregious. Doesn't Allstate's RPS scale start in Year 2 of a roof's life? I didn't think you got 100% replacement cost for the first 10 years of the roof's life but I'm not sure. Carriers have been slaughtered by wind/hail claims on roofs in the last 10 years. Mandatory 1% or higher wind/hail deductibles are part of it -- this gets to a much bigger deal on $1M+ homes if you can no longer have a flat wind/hail deductible.

@ROFL BOXwill agree with me on this -- if you qualify for Chubb or other HNW carriers such as PURE, AIG, Cincinnati or the other few you should seriously, seriously consider it. It might cost a little more on the front end but you'll potentially save many, many thousands in a claim situation.

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Can y'all in the business help me understand the economics of roofing? I have some bids in around $16,000 for a replacement. I've priced out materials. Comes to about $5,000. Let's call it $6,000 just to give plenty of leeway.

I've been told the job can be done in a day. Then say it's a crew of eight guys making $30 an hour for a 10-hour day. That's $2,400 in labor. So that comes out to around $8,500 in materials and labor, leaving about $7,500.

Then there's all sorts of things like insurance, transportation, offices, hauling away debris, etc. No idea what the "other" would be, but will assume $2,000 to be generous. 

Is there really a $5,500 profit margin on a roof? 

 

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C-Man

C-Man 27,229

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:50 AM, Catpfish said:

Just out of curiosity, what are the thresholds for high net worth?  I know, I know, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

 

I apologize for answering this 18-19 months after you asked it. I didn't see it previously.

It depends on where the home is located. For Texas, it's basically $500K+ on Dwelling to qualify for Chubb though they're not usually competitively-priced until you get to $1M+. AIG, Cincinnati and Nationwide Private Client are $1M and above. Berkley One, Vault and PURE recently bumped their minimums for DFW to $2M+. This also applies to Houston area. Austin-SA is seen as a big growth area for the HNW carriers and the minimums can be a little different than DFW/Houston for some of the carriers.

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T’Boo Ted Marshall

T’Boo Ted Marshall 2,732

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1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Can y'all in the business help me understand the economics of roofing? I have some bids in around $16,000 for a replacement. I've priced out materials. Comes to about $5,000. Let's call it $6,000 just to give plenty of leeway.

I've been told the job can be done in a day. Then say it's a crew of eight guys making $30 an hour for a 10-hour day. That's $2,400 in labor. So that comes out to around $8,500 in materials and labor, leaving about $7,500.

Then there's all sorts of things like insurance, transportation, offices, hauling away debris, etc. No idea what the "other" would be, but will assume $2,000 to be generous. 

Is there really a $5,500 profit margin on a roof? 

 

For most roofers I know that margin is low.  

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MonkeyDoughnut

MonkeyDoughnut 10,236

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26 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

F350s aren’t cheap these days.

lol... was about to post similar... "just take a look at the truck they show up in"... that should tell you how much magin is in it.  I had quotes from 4 roofers couple years back.. 3 came by to quote in $80K brand new trucks (that had never had anything in their bed except maybe a cooler)... and a 4th guy who came by in a work truck that was maybe 1/2 the cost.... his bid also was 1/2 the cost (family generational business over 40 years)

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deadshank

deadshank 24,653

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3 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Can y'all in the business help me understand the economics of roofing? I have some bids in around $16,000 for a replacement. I've priced out materials. Comes to about $5,000. Let's call it $6,000 just to give plenty of leeway.

I've been told the job can be done in a day. Then say it's a crew of eight guys making $30 an hour for a 10-hour day. That's $2,400 in labor. So that comes out to around $8,500 in materials and labor, leaving about $7,500.

Then there's all sorts of things like insurance, transportation, offices, hauling away debris, etc. No idea what the "other" would be, but will assume $2,000 to be generous. 

Is there really a $5,500 profit margin on a roof? 

 

No.  There is not.  
 

How big is your roof area and what kind of shingles will be used?  
 

Making $5.5K over $10.5K isn’t happening.  
 

I do this every day.   Seems your estimated material costs are too low as is your labor costs.  But I need to know how much roof area you have to replace and what kind of shingle is to be installed.  

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