Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[David Dennison 19440]

3 minutes ago, General Specific said:

Let’s try this another way. Opinion is one thing, but what some are asking is to show work or sources cited.

https://www.britannica.com/art/minstrel-show

Not as clear cut as it would seem.

With new information, we get to make new decisions.

Indeed.

https://www.americanheritage.com/blackface-sad-history-minstrel-shows

[bad_teammate 13479]

*looking at picture of smiling slave*

"Hmmm, makes u think!"

[David Dennison 19440]

12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Helo had a good question as to what contemporary black people thought at the time. I’m curious as to that question. You have any ideas?  

Here's the thing about pre-Civil Rights Act America: white people were largely unconcerned about what black people thought. Moreover, if black people complained or showed any kind of attitude deemed inappropriate by the dominant caste, they could wind up hanging from a tree. That kind of intimidation isn't really conducive for the free flow of opinions.

 

[CleverNickname 1345]

I propose modifying the lyrics to Rawhide. 

[BurntOrange&White 41646]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes. Not just someone, but multiple.

Not even sure TexAgs would defend minstrel shows.

They’re defending Sul Ross. Move the goal post again and do better. 
 

 

[Randolph Duke 4034]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes. Not just someone, but multiple.

Not even sure TexAgs would defend minstrel shows.

"Minstrel shows" are not the issue. Minstrels were performed for over 150 years by both black and white performers. Great American traditions of music (jazz) and various forms of dance were directly derived from minstrel shows. The rise of minstrel entertainment roughly traces the rise of the American city. Plain and simple, people wanted light entertainment accessible by the masses.

The problem with minstrel shows is they often portrayed offensive stereotypes and cruel satire. Blacks also attended minstrel shows, usually in support of black performers. It is that support that allowed the first black performers to exist on Broadway (did you really think contemporary whites were the ones promoting greater black representation in the performing arts?). For those who don't know "Jim Crow" of "the Jim Crow era" fame was one of the first popular minstrel characters dating to the 1820s and is pretty much the first character to appear on stage in blackface.

If you think EOT is controversial, just wait until Univ of Kentucky is asked to end "My Old Kentucky Home" because it is "racist." Pretty much everything from the Ragtime era was used in (if not written for) minstrel shows. Jazz derived from minstrel music, are is jazz. Rock evolved from blues, hip-hop from jazz and blues. Is it all racist because of its minstrel roots?

Put the band on indefinite hiatus, help them learn about the 150-year history of American arts and entertainment, and after that see where the consensus on EOT is. Simply asserting (minstrel=racist) is naive and simplistic.

So there, a defense of minstrel shows, but with a delineation between the shows and their content. People were assholes then, just as people are assholes today. If we start erasing every era of history because the assholes from a given era left big piles of shit all over the place for the rest of us to clean up, we will continuously seek to erase everything without cleaning up the piles of shit.

I personally don't think EOT is a big pile of shit from the 1920s.

I truly believe that in attending UT Austin there is a "it" to get. Not everyone gets "it." In my mind, the EOT tradition has been a reminder that the education I obtained has given me incredible opportunities in life. To me, the tradition says "the eyes of Texas" (past, present, and future) are watching to see what I do after leaving the 40 Acres. "The gift" of a UT education comes at a price, which is to both live a life and also give back in a way that extends the gift I was given down to the next select lucky few who get to attend UT.

I participate in the tradition of EOT to express to those who worked to help me get "it" that I still appreciate and remember what I have been given. That, and to pass down to current and future generations the part of the "it" that asserts the way one repays others is to do great things with what has been passed down to them. Part of the "it" I was given is the belief integrity is how one acts when no one is watching. For some of us, "the eyes of Texas" are upon us, even when no one is watching. I sing for very personal reasons. Some people get 'it." Some people don't.

"The Eyes of Texas" evidently means different things to different people.

That is why I participate in the EOT tradition and will continue to for the foreseeable future. And I don't care if someone thinks that makes me a racist.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Randolph Duke

[General Specific 3484]

Here's the thing about pre-Civil Rights Act America: white people were largely unconcerned about what black people thought. Moreover, if black people complained or showed any kind of attitude deemed inappropriate by the dominant caste, they could wind up hanging from a tree. That kind of intimidation isn't really conducive for the free flow of opinions.
 

DD and BT (as well as a few others and possibly socks)

Once again, using broad strokes to include All people on either side is not conducive to a conversation.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Underground-Railroad

Not as you painted in your post?

Cite your sources to back up your discussion points. Gaslighting, virtue signaling, moving the goal post and using straw men are not helpful here.

If you want to be a troll, FUCK OFF!

Otherwise, help move the conversation forward by providing information, not opinions about what you believe.

[David Dennison 19440]

5 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

"Minstrel shows" are not the issue. Minstrels were performed for over 150 years by both black and white performers. Great American traditions of music (jazz) and various forms of dance were directly derived from minstrel shows. The rise of minstrel entertainment roughly traces the rise of the American city. Plain and simple, people wanted light entertainment accessible by the masses.

The problem with minstrel shows is they often portrayed offensive stereotypes and cruel satire. Blacks also attended minstrel shows, usually in support of black performers. It is that support that allowed the first black performers to exist on Broadway (did you really think contemporary whites were the ones promoting greater black representation in the performing arts?). For those who don't know "Jim Crow" of "the Jim Crow era" fame was one of the first popular minstrel characters dating to the 1820s and is pretty much the first character to appear on stage in blackface.

If you think EOT is controversial, just wait until Univ of Kentucky is asked to end "My Old Kentucky Home" because it is "racist." Pretty much everything from the Ragtime era was used in (if not written for) minstrel shows. Jazz derived from minstrel music, are is jazz. Rock evolved from blues, hip-hop from jazz and blues. Is it all racist because of its minstrel roots?

Put the band on indefinite hiatus, help them learn about the 150-year history of American arts and entertainment, and after that see where the consensus on EOT is. Simply asserting (minstrel=racist) is naive and simplistic.

So there, a defense of minstrel shows, but with a delineation between the shows and their content. People were assholes then, just as people are assholes today. If we start erasing every era of history because the assholes from a given era left big piles of shit all over the place for the rest of us to clean up, we will continuously seek to erase everything without cleaning up the piles of shit. I personally don't think EOT is a big pile of shit from the 1920s.

Or allow players to decide if they want to show deference to a song they find offensive.

[MirrOlure 15185]

Or allow players to decide if they want to show deference to a song they find offensive.

Or, tell them to be 1% smarter than the fringe element that is blowing overblown bullshit up their collective ass and get over it.

[David Dennison 19440]

7 minutes ago, General Specific said:

DD and BT (as well as a few others and possibly socks)

Once again, using broad strokes to include All people on either side is not conducive to a conversation.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Underground-Railroad

Not as you painted in your post?

Cite your sources to back up your discussion points. Gaslighting, virtue signaling, moving the goal post and using straw men are not helpful here.

If you want to be a troll, FUCK OFF!

Otherwise, help move the conversation forward by providing information, not opinions about what you believe.

Why is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 a thing? Why do we need the Voting Rights Act of 1965? Why do we need the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments?

There are literally thousands of books and articles about the social relationship between black and white Americans. They are too numerous to cite here, but if you are really interested in knowing what it was like, particularly in the south, here are a few places to start:

Davis, Allison, Burleigh B. Gardner and Mary R. Gardner. Deep South: A Social and Anthropological Study of Caste and Class. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1941.

Dollard, John, Caste and Class in a Southern Town. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1937.

Powdermaker, Hortense. After Freedom: A Cultural Study in the Deep South. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1939.

 

[BurntOrange&White 41646]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Why is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 a thing? Why do we need the Voting Rights Act of 1965? Why do we need the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments?

There are literally thousands of books and articles about the social relationship between black and white Americans. They are too numerous to cite here, but if you are really interested in knowing what it was like, particularly in the south, here are a few places to start:

Davis, Allison, Burleigh B. Gardner and Mary R. Gardner. Deep South: A Social and Anthropological Study of Caste and Class. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1941.

Dollard, John, Caste and Class in a Southern Town. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1937.

Powdermaker, Hortense. After Freedom: A Cultural Study in the Deep South. Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1939.

 

Thought you couldn’t care less?

[David Dennison 19440]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

Thought you couldn’t care less?

I couldn't care less about whether the Eyes of Texas is performed at Texas sporting events.

I am very interested in the history of slavery and racism in America.

[Poe It Up 126]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

I couldn't care less about whether the Eyes of Texas is performed at Texas sporting events.

I am very turned on by the history of slavery and racism in America.

fify. 

[Duane Moore 5636]

39 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

"Minstrel shows" are not the issue. Minstrels were performed for over 150 years by both black and white performers. Great American traditions of music (jazz) and various forms of dance were directly derived from minstrel shows. The rise of minstrel entertainment roughly traces the rise of the American city. Plain and simple, people wanted light entertainment accessible by the masses.

The problem with minstrel shows is they often portrayed offensive stereotypes and cruel satire. Blacks also attended minstrel shows, usually in support of black performers. It is that support that allowed the first black performers to exist on Broadway (did you really think contemporary whites were the ones promoting greater black representation in the performing arts?). For those who don't know "Jim Crow" of "the Jim Crow era" fame was one of the first popular minstrel characters dating to the 1820s and is pretty much the first character to appear on stage in blackface.

If you think EOT is controversial, just wait until Univ of Kentucky is asked to end "My Old Kentucky Home" because it is "racist." Pretty much everything from the Ragtime era was used in (if not written for) minstrel shows. Jazz derived from minstrel music, are is jazz. Rock evolved from blues, hip-hop from jazz and blues. Is it all racist because of its minstrel roots?

Put the band on indefinite hiatus, help them learn about the 150-year history of American arts and entertainment, and after that see where the consensus on EOT is. Simply asserting (minstrel=racist) is naive and simplistic.

So there, a defense of minstrel shows, but with a delineation between the shows and their content. People were assholes then, just as people are assholes today. If we start erasing every era of history because the assholes from a given era left big piles of shit all over the place for the rest of us to clean up, we will continuously seek to erase everything without cleaning up the piles of shit.

I personally don't think EOT is a big pile of shit from the 1920s.

I truly believe that in attending UT Austin there is a "it" to get. Not everyone gets "it." In my mind, the EOT tradition has been a reminder that the education I obtained has given me incredible opportunities in life. To me, the tradition says "the eyes of Texas" (past, present, and future) are watching to see what I do after leaving the 40 Acres to add to the achievements of others who made my time at UT possible. "The gift" of a UT education comes at a price, which is to live a life and give back in a way that extends the gift I was given down to the select lucky few in the future who get to attend UT.

I participate in the tradition of EOT to express to those who worked to help me get "it" that I appreciate and remember what I has given That, and to pass down to current and future generations that the only way you repay others for what you have been given is to do great things. I was taught integrity was how one acts when no one is watching. For some of us, "the eyes of Texas" are upon us.

That is why I participate in the EOT tradition and will continue to for the foreseeable future. And I don't care of someone thinks that makes me a racist.

Quite possibly the best post on this God-forsaken thread. Thank you for your service. 
 

[Newy25 7894]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I couldn't care less about whether the Eyes of Texas is performed at Texas sporting events.

I am very interested in the history of slavery and racism in America.

That must have been hard  to write that first sentence with a straight face. “I don’t care except I obsessively talk about my strong opinion on the subject non stop!”. 

If you continue to be dishonest, people quickly discount your opinions. You think somehow acting as if you are detached emotionally from a subject (when all evidence suggests otherwise) gives you some sort or high ground. And dropping “slavery” into the discussion repeatedly somehow gives you the virtuous argument. 

Just stop pretending like you don’t care. You would be more believable in your agenda if you did. 

[Apex73 313]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Social commentary recycled from some washed up comedian who is mad no one younger than 50 likes him.

A problem with this garbage commentary is that the players aren't blanketing social media talking about this. In fact, I can't think of an example of ONE of them talking about it. Overshown talked about the "real fans" in reaction to a tidal wave of hatred and racism thrown at the players because of the controversy. Can you, or anyone else, show evidence of this socially open clout chasing?

Pretty please, with sugar on top.

Who are you referring to exactly?  If you are saying that what I'm saying is something a lot of other people agree with then you're right.  Other than that, it just sounds like you think I plagiarized or regurgitated information someone else said to make my own point.  That's what people say who have never had an original thought and think everything is "recycled".  No shit, turns out when people are talking about the same thing there is often overlap in opinion.  I still have honestly no idea who you are referring to because there have been a lot of people who have echoed these sentiments.   And because people are upset at the players at this doesn't mean they have a tidal wave of hate.  You define hate as anyone who gets upset or disagrees with them.  That's disingenuous.  You are behaving like a 14 year old girl.  It's not a good look.  You need to get laid.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Apex73

[DoobieWah 1528]

2 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Overshown talked about the "real fans" in reaction to a tidal wave of hatred and racism thrown at the players because of the controversy.

A tidal wave of hatred and racism?

Because we object to our football team, of every fucking color in the box, refusing to sing the alma mater of their school with their fans and alumni, as their far more accomplished predecessors have done for over a hundred years?

because we object, we’re racists?
 

fuck you, you little troll. 

[Apex73 313]

1 hour ago, Newy25 said:

Apex is a comedian? Did you make that up like everything else you do or is that legit? 

He doesn't ever have anything of substance to say so when someone does he calls it "recycled"

[bad_teammate 13479]

56 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

"Minstrel shows" are not the issue.

...
The problem with minstrel shows is they often portrayed offensive stereotypes and cruel satire.

The problem wasn't minstrel shows, it was... minstrel shows?

Quote

If you think EOT is controversial, just wait until Univ of Kentucky is asked to end "My Old Kentucky Home" because it is "racist." Pretty much everything from the Ragtime era was used in (if not written for) minstrel shows. Jazz derived from minstrel music, are is jazz. Rock evolved from blues, hip-hop from jazz and blues. Is it all racist because of its minstrel roots?

I don't think The Eyes is racist.

But you're definitely enjoying your rant, so keep going.

Quote

I truly believe that in attending UT Austin there is a "it" to get. Not everyone gets "it."

From the outside looking in, you can't understand it.
From the inside looking out, you can't explain it.

Whooooooooop!

Quote

That is why I participate in the EOT tradition and will continue to for the foreseeable future. And I don't care if someone thinks that makes me a racist.

No one cares if you sing The Eyes. Zero people.

No one has called you a racist. No one is going to. Good job vanquishing invisible demons. We are all impressed and proud.

11 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Who are you referring to exactly?

Any dumbass bald 50-year-old comedian on Youtube or a podcast.

Kids these days blah blah horseshit grumbling

Quote

And because people are upset at the players at this doesn't mean they have a tidal wave of hate. 

Read the thread. There is outright racism in this thread and in the first thread that had to be locked because it was such a burning fire of garbage and hatred towards the players. Calling our players fatherless thugs with no future and "blackthletes" or whatever. Overshown quoted it in his Tweet.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish by denying this stuff.

10 minutes ago, DoobieWah said:

because we object, we’re racists?

Who called you a racist?

Why do you guys keep claiming false victimhood like triggered snowflakes?

No one called you anything, crybaby.

A forum full of white Jussie Smollets.

Edited October 23, 2020 by bad_teammate

[bad_teammate 13479]

"I am so tired of being called racist!"

- "Who called you racist?"

"Well, no one, but..."

[Apex73 313]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The problem wasn't minstrel shows, it was... minstrel shows?

I don't think The Eyes is racist.

But you're definitely enjoying your rant, so keep going.

From the outside looking in, you can't understand it.
From the inside looking out, you can't explain it.

Whooooooooop!

No one cares if you sing The Eyes. Zero people.

No one has called you a racist. No one is going to. Good job vanquishing invisible demons. We are all impressed and proud.

Any dumbass bald 50-year-old comedian on Youtube or a podcast.

Kids these days blah blah horseshit grumbling

Read the thread. There is outright racism in this thread and in the first thread that had to be locked because it was such a burning fire of garbage and hatred towards the players. Calling our players fatherless thugs with no future and "blackthletes" or whatever. Overshown quoted it in his Tweet.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish by denying this stuff.

Who called you a racist?

Why do you guys keep claiming false victimhood like triggered snowflakes?

No one called you anything, crybaby.

A forum full of white Jussie Smollets.

Ok so you weren't referring to anyone specifically just running your dick licker about nonsense again.  Got it.  You should also not conflate the opinions of a few (which btw I didn't see anything blatantly racist in that but maybe I missed something) with everyone who disagrees with you on this board.  It takes 3 seconds of thinking to come up with a conclusion like that.  It seems like you live in a bubble.  You have no credibility with me.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Apex73

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, Apex73 said:

It seems like you live in a bubble.

We call it the Cloak Room

[bad_teammate 13479]

3 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Ok so you weren't referring to anyone specifically just running your dick licker about nonsense again.  Got it.  You should also not conflate the opinions of a few (which btw I didn't see anything blatantly racist in that but maybe I missed something) with everyone who disagrees with you on this board.  It takes 3 seconds of thinking to come up with a conclusion like that.  It seems like you live in a bubble.

What specifically did I accuse you of that was unfair?

[David Dennison 19440]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

We call it the Cloak Room

The irony is delicious.

 

[Randolph Duke 4034]

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The problem wasn't minstrel shows, it was... minstrel shows?

I don't think The Eyes is racist.

But you're definitely enjoying your rant, so keep going.

From the outside looking in, you can't understand it.
From the inside looking out, you can't explain it.

Whooooooooop!

No one cares if you sing The Eyes. Zero people.

No one has called you a racist. No one is going to. Good job vanquishing invisible demons. We are all impressed and proud.

Any dumbass bald 50-year-old comedian on Youtube or a podcast.

Kids these days blah blah horseshit grumbling

Read the thread. There is outright racism in this thread and in the first thread that had to be locked because it was such a burning fire of garbage and hatred towards the players. Calling our players fatherless thugs with no future and "blackthletes" or whatever. Overshown quoted it in his Tweet.

I don't know what you hope to accomplish by denying this stuff.

Who called you a racist?

Why do you guys keep claiming false victimhood like triggered snowflakes?

No one called you anything, crybaby.

A forum full of white Jussie Smollets.

Wow. This should be in the dictionary illustrating the entry for "ADHD."

It is fascinating to me to see how the minds of other people process information.

[Helobious 9755]

There’s plenty of valid defenses of The Eyes. All these defenses of minstrel shows are fucking embarrassing and should stop. 
 

Some minstrel shows did feature black performers and musicians. It’s a sad commentary that the only way they could make a name for themselves as performers at the time was to debase and exploit themselves for white audiences. Black minstrel actors still had to wear blackface and exaggerate their speech in order to create the most ridiculous caricatures possible of a black person. All for less pay than their white counterparts on stage. It’s not an art form worthy of much defense. 
 

 

[bad_teammate 13479]

Surly:  "Minstrel shows were actually good!"

TexAgs:

[dcar00 14899]

8 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Ok so you weren't referring to anyone specifically just running your dick licker about nonsense again.  Got it.  You should also not conflate the opinions of a few (which btw I didn't see anything blatantly racist in that but maybe I missed something) with everyone who disagrees with you on this board.  It takes 3 seconds of thinking to come up with a conclusion like that.  It seems like you live in a bubble.  You have no credibility with me.

this.  the bubble is nice and soft though.  I'm still trying to figure out at what point on this thread Godwin's Law will enter...

[Apex73 313]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What specifically did I accuse you of that was unfair?

Well for one, how about that ridiculous you and yours comment you made about me that insinuates that me and the rest of the "angry white people" are just raging ignorant old people.  How about saying that I use recycled opinions from comedians then not bringing up anyone in specific when asked repeatedly to do so.  You have zero credibility with me. 

[Randolph Duke 4034]

8 minutes ago, Helobious said:

There’s plenty of valid defenses of The Eyes. All these defenses of minstrel shows are fucking embarrassing and should stop. 
 

Some minstrel shows did feature black performers and musicians. It’s a sad commentary that the only way they could make a name for themselves as performers at the time was to debase and exploit themselves for white audiences. Black minstrel actors still had to wear blackface and exaggerate their speech in order to create the most ridiculous caricatures possible of a black person. All for less pay than their white counterparts on stage. It’s not an art form worthy of much defense. 
 

 

The art form itself wasn't the problem, it was how the art form was used that is the problem. The fact that people found amusement in the degrading portrayals of others is the issue, not that lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses was inherently racist. If you can't differentiate between the two, then you may want to take a step back and rethink things.

There was no other art form at the time for large urban populations as American cities hadn't grown to the size they were becoming starting on the 1820s. The culture of the nation at that time is what made degrading portrayals of others qualify as "entertainment." That culture left us benefits and also large steaming piles of shit. Some that still pollute our culture and society today.

Is EOT one of those stinking piles of cultural shit? So far, the evidence doesn't lead me to believe it is. Simply having cultural roots in a minstrel show doesn't automatically qualify something as a cultural pile of shit, in my mind. Finding amusement in the degrading portrayals of others does.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Randolph Duke

[MirrOlure 15185]

The art form itself wasn't the problem, it was how the art form was used that is the problem. The fact that people found amusement in the degrading portrayals of others is the issue, not that lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses was inherently racist. If you can't differentiate between the two, then you may want to take a step back and rethink things.

Oh, Randy,

The Darlings of the Echo Chamber don’t have to “step back and rethink” when all the have to is add 2 + 2 and arrive at Eleventy Billion

[BabaYaga 15532]

15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The irony is delicious.

 

Coming from you, it sure as shit is.

[Catdaddyhorn 3462]

3 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

The art form itself wasn't the problem, it was how the art form was used that is the problem. The fact that people found amusement in the degrading portrayals of others is the issue, not that lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses was inherently racist. If you can't differentiate between the two, then you may want to take a step back and rethink things.

Are you claiming that "all lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses" were by definition minstrel shows? Or asked another way, were all vaudeville styled shows termed minstrel shows back then? 

[bad_teammate 13479]

3 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Well for one, how about that ridiculous you and yours comment you made about me that insinuates that me and the rest of the "angry white people" are just raging ignorant old people.  How about saying that I use recycled opinions from comedians then not bringing up anyone in specific when asked repeatedly to do so.  You have zero credibility with me. 

A throwaway dig comparing you to Bill Burr or whatever really seems to have hit a nerve.

This right here: "These kids have grown up in a society where they get rewarded for call out culture.  If you call out something privately you get no social points but if you do it publicly you get the points which is crucial to your social capital."

Turn on the Joe Rogan podcast with any ep with a comedian and just pick a random spot in any of them and this is basically verbatim. Maybe you consume that kind of crap and are repeating it or maybe your brilliant mind came up with it in a vacuum, either way it's idiotic and, in this case, completely inaccurate.

I asked if you had evidence if the players were crowing out this on social media for clout, but instead of dealing with that simple question you continue to roll around on the turf like a soccer player because I accurately mocked the type of dumb crap you're spouting.

The players ARE NOT "do(ing) it publicly" to "get the points which (are) crucial to your social capital". The players are silent about this on social media.

Your dumb take isn't even close to being accurate.

6 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

The art form itself wasn't the problem, it was how the art form was used that is the problem. The fact that people found amusement in the degrading portrayals of others is the issue, not that lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses was inherently racist. If you can't differentiate between the two, then you may want to take a step back and rethink things.

Was all popular entertainment in the 19th century called "minstrelsy" or just a specific type?

Please answer this question.

[David Dennison 19440]

42 minutes ago, DoobieWah said:

A tidal wave of hatred and racism?

Because we object to our football team, of every fucking color in the box, refusing to sing the alma mater of their school with their fans and alumni, as their far more accomplished predecessors have done for over a hundred years?

because we object, we’re racists?
 

fuck you, you little troll. 

You might not be racist, but it appears you claim to be the final arbiter of what symbols black people must deem worthy of respect. 

[MirrOlure 15185]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You might not be racist, but it appears you claim to be the final arbiter of what symbols black people must deem worthy of respect. 

The fact that you cannot distinguish between "worthy of respect" and "not worthy of disrespect" tells us all we need to know....

[Pancho 46052]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Helo had a good question as to what contemporary black people thought at the time. I’m curious as to that question. You have any ideas?  

You know what this answer is so it's unclear why you're purposely choosing to be obtuse.  

 

[Helobious 9755]

2 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

The art form itself wasn't the problem, it was how the art form was used that is the problem. The fact that people found amusement in the degrading portrayals of others is the issue, not that lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses was inherently racist. If you can't differentiate between the two, then you may want to take a step back and rethink things.

You know minstrels were a specific form of theater with a specific format right? They all centered around depictions of black culture, most commonly plantation life. Slaves were often depicted as happy go-lucky, their appearance, speech, music, and dance was lampooned, and black characters (again, who were almost always white actors in blackface) were often the simple-minded foils of the white characters. It was an inherently racist form of entertainment. The fact that The Eyes was debuted at an event featuring a minstrel show does not make The Eyes itself inherently racist in my opinion, but to say minstrels were not racist is an ignorant and misguided belief.

[Randolph Duke 4034]

7 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Are you claiming that "all lighthearted entertainment for the urban masses" were by definition minstrel shows? Or asked another way, were all vaudeville styled shows termed minstrel shows back then? 

Vaudeville was developed in France about half a century after minstrel shows. Again, when minstrel shows first developed, they were a new art form, namely lighthearted entertainment for the masses. Americans weren't into Shakespearean plays. The circus as we know it hadn't yet evolved.

It is absolutely possible to replicate the minstrel show format without including material that includes degrading portrayals of others.

[David Dennison 19440]

Just now, MirrOlure said:

The fact that you cannot distinguish between "worthy of respect" and "not worthy of disrespect" tells us all we need to know....

There is a growing constituency of students, athletes, and alumni who no longer deem the Eyes of Texas worthy of the respect demanded by those who do.

That makes people uncomfortable.

[Catdaddyhorn 3462]

4 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

Vaudeville was developed in France about half a century after minstrel shows. Again, when minstrel shows first developed, they were a new art form, namely lighthearted entertainment for the masses. Americans weren't into Shakespearean plays. The circus as we know it hadn't yet evolved.

It is absolutely possible to replicate the minstrel show format without including material that includes degrading portrayals of others.

Did that happen?

[David Dennison 19440]

4 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

Vaudeville was developed in France about half a century after minstrel shows. Again, when minstrel shows first developed, they were a new art form, namely lighthearted entertainment for the masses. Americans weren't into Shakespearean plays. The circus as we know it hadn't yet evolved.

It is absolutely possible to replicate the minstrel show format without including material that includes degrading portrayals of others.

Then it wouldn't be a minstrel show.

[BurntOrange&White 41646]

Just now, David Dennison said:

There is a growing constituency of students, athletes, and alumni who no longer deem the Eyes of Texas worthy of the respect demanded by those who do.

That makes people uncomfortable.

Regents chairman Kevin Eltife reiterated the board’s approval of Hartzell’s announcement that “The Eyes” will remain the university song even though some band members are now refusing to play it.

“To be clear, the UT System Board of Regents stands unequivocally and unanimously in support of President Hartzell’s announcement that The Eyes of Texas is, and will remain, the official school song,” Eltife said in a statement.

[David Dennison 19440]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

Regents chairman Kevin Eltife reiterated the board’s approval of Hartzell’s announcement that “The Eyes” will remain the university song even though some band members are now refusing to play it.

“To be clear, the UT System Board of Regents stands unequivocally and unanimously in support of President Hartzell’s announcement that The Eyes of Texas is, and will remain, the official school song,” Eltife said in a statement.

That's great.

It does nothing to solve the problem.

[Wulaw Horn 19560]

1 hour ago, Randolph Duke said:

"Minstrel shows" are not the issue. Minstrels were performed for over 150 years by both black and white performers. Great American traditions of music (jazz) and various forms of dance were directly derived from minstrel shows. The rise of minstrel entertainment roughly traces the rise of the American city. Plain and simple, people wanted light entertainment accessible by the masses.

The problem with minstrel shows is they often portrayed offensive stereotypes and cruel satire. Blacks also attended minstrel shows, usually in support of black performers. It is that support that allowed the first black performers to exist on Broadway (did you really think contemporary whites were the ones promoting greater black representation in the performing arts?). For those who don't know "Jim Crow" of "the Jim Crow era" fame was one of the first popular minstrel characters dating to the 1820s and is pretty much the first character to appear on stage in blackface.

If you think EOT is controversial, just wait until Univ of Kentucky is asked to end "My Old Kentucky Home" because it is "racist." Pretty much everything from the Ragtime era was used in (if not written for) minstrel shows. Jazz derived from minstrel music, are is jazz. Rock evolved from blues, hip-hop from jazz and blues. Is it all racist because of its minstrel roots?

Put the band on indefinite hiatus, help them learn about the 150-year history of American arts and entertainment, and after that see where the consensus on EOT is. Simply asserting (minstrel=racist) is naive and simplistic.

So there, a defense of minstrel shows, but with a delineation between the shows and their content. People were assholes then, just as people are assholes today. If we start erasing every era of history because the assholes from a given era left big piles of shit all over the place for the rest of us to clean up, we will continuously seek to erase everything without cleaning up the piles of shit.

I personally don't think EOT is a big pile of shit from the 1920s.

I truly believe that in attending UT Austin there is a "it" to get. Not everyone gets "it." In my mind, the EOT tradition has been a reminder that the education I obtained has given me incredible opportunities in life. To me, the tradition says "the eyes of Texas" (past, present, and future) are watching to see what I do after leaving the 40 Acres. "The gift" of a UT education comes at a price, which is to both live a life and also give back in a way that extends the gift I was given down to the next select lucky few who get to attend UT.

I participate in the tradition of EOT to express to those who worked to help me get "it" that I still appreciate and remember what I have been given. That, and to pass down to current and future generations the part of the "it" that asserts the way one repays others is to do great things with what has been passed down to them. Part of the "it" I was given is the belief integrity is how one acts when no one is watching. For some of us, "the eyes of Texas" are upon us, even when no one is watching. I sing for very personal reasons. Some people get 'it." Some people don't.

"The Eyes of Texas" evidently means different things to different people.

That is why I participate in the EOT tradition and will continue to for the foreseeable future. And I don't care if someone thinks that makes me a racist.

I had no idea Jim Crow related and started in Minstrel shows.  Saw that in the General specific article he linked.  Thanks for some context to this. I've never really looked into this- the only association I had with Minstrel shows was people in black face and it looks horrific to modern sensibilities, but I've never read about the art form or any of what you laid out. Thanks for taking the time to share.

[Helobious 9755]

6 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

It is absolutely possible to replicate the minstrel show format without including material that includes degrading portrayals of others.

That clears things up. You simply don’t understand what a minstrel show is. 

[Newy25 7894]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

"I am so tired of being called racist!"

- "Who called you racist?"

"Well, no one, but..."

Wrong, again. By saying the EOT is racist and it needs to be cancelled, it implies those who like the song and sing it proudly and do not share that view are in fact racists. That’s why the intellectually dishonest view as painting the song itself as racist is not only stupid it’s very divisive. 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Newy25

[Don Johnson 4802]

Hasn't this song been co-opted for "good" long, long since? 

The traditional Longhorn uniform was worn by a segregated football team for 75 + years.  But it has since proudly been worn by many black players.  No one wants to stop wearing the uniform because of ties to segregated teams.   Its taken on a new meaning over the past 50 years.

The song was once performed at a minstrel show in 1903 by performers "likely" donning blackface.  But has since been proudly sung by many black players and coaches.  Hasn't it taken on a new meaning since that day in 1903?  

[BurntOrange&White 41646]

Just now, David Dennison said:

That's great.

It does nothing to solve the problem.

Appears to me there is no problem. Only people like you who seem to create non existent problems and move goal post once they’ve been dealt with. 
 

seems the problem rest inside your head. But hey you couldn’t care less remember?

[Randolph Duke 4034]

12 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You know minstrels were a specific form of theater with a specific format right? They all centered around depictions of black culture, most commonly plantation life. Slaves were often depicted as happy go-lucky, their appearance, speech, music, and dance was lampooned, and black characters (again, who were almost always white actors in blackface) were often the simple-minded foils of the white characters. It was an inherently racist form of entertainment. The fact that The Eyes was debuted at an event featuring a minstrel show does not make The Eyes itself inherently racist in my opinion, but to say minstrels were not racist is an ignorant and misguided belief.

Yep, and the first popular character from the minstrel era was "Jim crow." I get it.

But It is absolutely possible to replicate the minstrel show format without including material that includes degrading portrayals of others. And because of that, for people to claim "minstrel = evil" oversimplifies the issue. If you simply equate "minstrel = evil" the you avoid the truly uncomfortable reality that there has always been a part of our culture that derives entertainment out of the degradation of others.

Promote "minstrel = evil" all you want, but even if you stamp out everything related to the minstrel show format that you can possibly find, you will still be left with the problem of not having dealt with the reality that part of our culture still derives entertainment out of the degradation of others (or at least is indifferent to the degradation of others). And simply passing that down to the next generation would be a pile of steaming shit our generation would have passed down for others.

The problem is the mindset, not the art form allowing that mindset to be expressed. If not through minstrel shows, how is that mindset still being expressed on campus, and in our culture. Because that racist mindset unquestionable still exists today, well after the demise of the minstrel show format..

But in my mind, I do not think that mindset is being perpetuated by the singing of EOT.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Randolph Duke