Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[TonyTexas 10485]

12 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Is the alleged racist connotation the fact that UT students performed the song in blackface minstrel shows, or does it go farther . . . are the "eyes" on African Americans exclusively, as in "keep in line"?

You have to play it backwards to get the real meaning. 

[David Dennison 18694]

2 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Ladies & gentlemen, the booger blob’s representative has spoken!

You know how this is going to end. You just don't like it.

[maninblack 7974]

51 minutes ago, LTtxfan said:

Just to catch folks up who are late to this discussion.

2:10 Mark.... Question on "The Eyes of Texas"

 

Both Ricky and Earl see value in keeping "The Eyes of Texas" 

By not immediately canceling the song, more discussions have been happening.  More Longhorn players & students are now better interacting with alumni and vice versa.  This is a good thing.  People need to discuss things more and dictate less.  The Committee report comes out next week, probably on Tuesday.  I look forward to reading the entire report and learning about their findings.

 

Btw -- Several have said to just let the EOT go due to all the criticism.  Be Careful... Just because you are criticized doesn't mean you should just give in.  

 

Two mature opinions from Longhorn greats 🤘

[Horn of Gabriel 1590]

26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You know how this is going to end. You just don't like it.

[Restinmybones 111]

33 minutes ago, YChang said:

I don't see it as insidious as what you described. There's absolutely a reason to bring awareness and highlight things that aren't right. Butttt... as with so many things there can also be a negative aspect to that as well. Especially with <painting with broad brush> some of today's college-age youth being way too hyper-sensitive to everything. I chalk that up to exuberance toward something that resonates with them and general dumbassery due to youth.  <shrug>

Thanks for bein' civil Mr. Chang {?}. Makes sense. I just think it's being seriously over-emphasized by front-running politicians who don't want to attempt to address some very serious economic, infrastructure, and foreign policy problems because, well, some Big Money doesn't want those issues addressed. I really hate discussing this stuff. It's stressful and God knows I don't need stress, any longer.

[po elvis 2070]

33 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You know how this is going to end. You just don't like it.

not so sure on this one. this is one thing that powers at be aren't just going to roll over like we are seeing others do these days. they are actually going to need a valid reason. that valid reason is going to need actual evidence to support it. when your reason is shaky an no evidence exists to support your shaky reason, it makes it a lot easier to keep it.

[David Dennison 18694]

18 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Daniel Snyder thought so, too.

[David Dennison 18694]

15 minutes ago, po elvis said:

not so sure on this one. this is one thing that powers at be aren't just going to roll over like we are seeing others do these days. they are actually going to need a valid reason. that valid reason is going to need actual evidence to support it. when your reason is shaky an no evidence exists to support your shaky reason, it makes it a lot easier to keep it.

The song has ties to Robert E. Lee.

Its days are numbered.

Edited March 3, 2021 by David Dennison

[jimmyjazz 45606]

Well, it seems to me any discussion about racist undertones of the lyrics hinges on the pronoun "you".

-- if "you" is the student body, then the lyrics would seem to be cautioning students that they are privileged to be attending The University, and that the whole state is watching.

-- if "you" is African-Americans or former slaves (in the early 20th century?) then the tone is decidedly negative, and proof of such would justify shelving the song.

 

To me, a person who has never denied my left-of-center political and social views, I think clear evidence of intent is required.  Perhaps it will come from Prather's writings, etc., because it seems pretty well-established that the author was getting a dig in on him.

Regarding the letter quoted above, it seems a stretch to reference phrases such as "the eyes of the world are upon us", etc. as supporting the alleged benign intent of the song.  The difference in pronoun could be everything.

Edited March 3, 2021 by jimmyjazz

[ChiTownDoc 21105]

More Taste!!

 

Less Filling!!!

[GringoSalado 1651]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

To me, a person who has never denied my left-of-center political and social views, I think clear evidence of intent is required.

Have some rep, I think too many folks disagree there.

[David Dennison 18694]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Well, it seems to me any discussion about racist undertones of the lyrics hinges on the pronoun "you".

-- if "you" is the student body, then the lyrics would seem to be cautioning students that they are privileged to be attending The University, and that the whole state is watching.

-- if "you" is African-Americans or former slaves (in the early 20th century?) then the tone is decidedly negative, and proof of such would justify shelving the song.

 

To me, a person who has never denied my left-of-center political and social views, I think clear evidence of intent is required.  Perhaps it will come from Prather's writings, etc., because it seems pretty well-established that the author was getting a dig in on him.

Regarding the letter quoted above, it seems a stretch to reference phrases such as "the eyes of the world are upon us", etc. as supporting the alleged benign intent of the song.  The difference in pronoun could be everything.

The "you" is the student body. Still, Robert E. Lee led an army that was fighting to keep African Americans enslaved as chattel property. Anything connected to Lee or the Confederacy is going to be highly scrutinized moving forward.

[Da Fino 2741]

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The song has ties to Robert E. Lee.

Its days are numbered.

Is there actual evidence to that?

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

1 minute ago, Da Fino said:

Is there actual evidence to that?

No, lol.

[David Dennison 18694]

3 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

Is there actual evidence to that?

According to the university, yes.

https://www.utsystem.edu/board-of-regents/former-regents/william-lambdin-prather

President Prather also provided the University with the words "The Eyes of Texas are upon you," which later became the title of the institution's official song. As a student, he reportedly heard Washington and Lee University President Robert E. Lee tell students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." President Prather changed the words slightly and used them as opening and parting comments he made to students. "The Eyes of Texas are upon you" was placed under trademark registration in 1936.

Edited March 3, 2021 by David Dennison

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

hearsay evidence LUL

[Cajun 11675]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

You know how this is going to end. You just don't like it.

All you're doing is proving my point.  

I have no doubt that The University will cave.  You say "no one will miss it".  Plenty will miss it, especially the woke Booger Blob.  It will have to reimagine something else to be offended by and it certainly will, but in the space between the end of EOT and that moment, the Beast will long for its food trough of pretend offense.

It is never satiated.  It will never end.

And you are a very obedient little pony soldier for speaking out on its behalf so consistently.  They will write poetry about you!

Edited March 3, 2021 by Cajun

[David Dennison 18694]

5 minutes ago, BurntOrange&White said:

hearsay evidence LUL

We aren't in court.

Edited March 3, 2021 by David Dennison

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

We aren't in court and even if we were, it's probably an exception to the hearsay rule as an admission by a party opponent.

Look buddy, you're going to need stone cold facts to change this. It's not going to come down to subjectivity and hearsay from 100+ years ago to change this. 

[Cajun 11675]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

You know how this is going to end don't you?  You should accept your situation.  There would be more dignity in it.

Oh, and given my avatar, you really missed a great opportunity here, so fify.

[66BUFF 2557]

24 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

More Taste!!

 

Less Filling!!!

Great Taste

[Cajun 11675]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We aren't in reality.

fify

again

[jimmyjazz 45606]

I'm really gonna need to see more about the context of Lee's "eyes of the South" statement, not to mention good evidence that Prather was angling for nefarious intent as opposed to just nicking a clever phrase.

[GringoSalado 1651]

5 minutes ago, Cajun said:

And you are a very obedient little pony soldier bootlicker for speaking out on its behalf so consistently. 

 

[David Dennison 18694]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

I'm really gonna need to see more about the context of Lee's "eyes of the South" statement, not to mention good evidence that Prather was angling for nefarious intent as opposed to just nicking a clever phrase.

Intent is irrelevant. It's the connection to Lee and the Confederacy that will doom the Eyes of Texas.

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Intent is irrelevant. It's the connection to Lee and the Confederacy that will doom the Eyes of Texas.

Can you factually prove they're directly connected? 

[David Dennison 18694]

Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

Can you factually prove they're directly connected? 

William Prather got his law degree at Washington College, what is now Washington and Lee University. William Prather claimed to have heard Robert E. Lee tell his students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." He then used those words to tell his students in Austin that, "The eyes of Texas are upon you." Those are the words that were the impetus behind the song.

 

[mininghorn88 2270]

My local TV station ran a story on this last night.  Though they showed both sides of the story it was still probably 60/40 to 70/30 slanted toward the ones that wanted it removed.  To the casual observer, who fails to do critical thinking or any thinking at all, I can see how the opinion is formed to have it removed.

[mininghorn88 2270]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

William Prather got his law degree at Washington College, what is now Washington and Lee University. William Prather claimed to have heard Robert E. Lee tell his students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." He then used those words to tell his students in Austin that, "The eyes of Texas are upon you." Those are the words that were the impetus behind the song.

 

And so....?

[David Dennison 18694]

1 minute ago, mininghorn88 said:

And so....?

That connection is why the song will eventually be retired. It's just a matter of time.

[jimmyjazz 45606]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Intent is irrelevant. It's the connection to Lee and the Confederacy that will doom the Eyes of Texas.

You keep saying that as if it's a foregone conclusion.  I don't think that's necessarily true.  Should Washington & Lee University be shut down?

I'm pretty sure the administration is leaning strongly in favor of keeping the song.  I don't think Sark would have been as definite about singing it if that weren't the case.  This may turn out to be a test run for more rational approaches to assessing historical blind spots.

[BurntOrange&White 39717]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

William Prather got his law degree at Washington College, what is now Washington and Lee University. William Prather claimed to have heard Robert E. Lee tell his students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." He then used those words to tell his students in Austin that, "The eyes of Texas are upon you." Those are the words that were the impetus behind the song.

 

conjecture at best.

 

Where is the facts?

Edited March 3, 2021 by BurntOrange&White

[PassiveAggressiveCoach 118]

13 hours ago, Hookem2147 said:

No, but there are people who cheer for this university who would rather sing a song than win football games. I’d love to do both but I won’t let one get in the way of the other. We lost of our arch rival in 4 OT’s and not one story after the game had anything to do with the game itself.

Dont let a great tradition get destroyed because of something not based on reality but just cancel culture. You have to make some serious jumps in logical thought to make the song racist. It's seriously is like a weird conspiracy theory. If a group of people are offended by something not actually based on fact but a conspiracy theory maybe you should push back on that? Hopefully, we can get a lot of ex players to help out with the process of truly understanding the Eyes. That's what I'd do at least if trying to tackle this issue.

[David Dennison 18694]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

You keep saying that as if it's a foregone conclusion.  I don't think that's necessarily true.  Should Washington & Lee University be shut down?

I'm pretty sure the administration is leaning strongly in favor of keeping the song.  I don't think Sark would have been as definite about singing it if that weren't the case.  This may turn out to be a test run for more rational approaches to assessing historical blind spots.

I think it is a foregone conclusion. I think the pressure from current and future students, particularly athletes, will force the administration's hand.

Also, W&L's board of regents is in the process of deciding whether to change the name of the school. 

[Horn of Gabriel 1590]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

William Prather got his law degree at Washington College, what is now Washington and Lee University. William Prather claimed to have heard Robert E. Lee tell his students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." He then used those words to tell his students in Austin that, "The eyes of Texas are upon you." Those are the words that were the impetus behind the song.

 

Where's the evidence that Lee actually said this?  See above posted open letter where multiple Lee/Civil War historians say that there is no evidence of this and, like Lincoln, lots of quotes get ascribed to Lee without him actually having said them.

The whole anti-EOT house-of-cards is built on offenses generated by a spurious connection.  It's not even real!

[David Dennison 18694]

2 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

Where's the evidence that Lee actually said this?  See above posted open letter where multiple Lee/Civil War historians say that there is no evidence of this and, like Lincoln, lots of quotes get ascribed to Lee without him actually having said them.

The whole anti-EOT house-of-cards is built on offenses generated by a spurious connection.  It's not even real!

You are missing the point. William Prather made the connection. Did he embellish the truth? Who knows? Prather claimed to have heard Lee say those words. Lee was the inspiration. It does not matter one whit whether Robert E. Lee actually said it.

[jimmyjazz 45606]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

IAlso, W&L's board of regents is in the process of deciding whether to change the name of the school. 

That's fine, but it in no way negates the school's history.  Lee was president for 5 years immediately following the Civil War, and then he died.  It's a huge strike on the school.

Now, I realize it's far easier to shelve a song than it is to close a university, but in one case the link is nebulous and certainly secondary, and in the other, it's specific and a terrible honorific to perpetuate.  I would be shocked if they DIDN'T change the name of the school -- they absolutely should.

[GringoSalado 1651]

19 minutes ago, mininghorn88 said:

My local TV station ran a story on this last night.  Though they showed both sides of the story it was still probably 60/40 to 70/30 slanted toward the ones that wanted it removed.  To the casual observer, who fails to do critical thinking or any thinking at all, I can see how the opinion is formed to have it removed.

https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/

[Ghost of Shag 2585]

11 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I think it is a foregone conclusion. I think the pressure from current and future students, particularly athletes, will force the administration's hand.

Also, W&L's board of regents is in the process of deciding whether to change the name of the school. 

So what’s your position? Do you think the song should be removed?

[GTX Horn 1707]

Unfortunately, at this point I’m inclined to agree with DD that the headwinds are too strong and it’ll eventually be removed. It’s a no-win situation because people who want to keep it will be upset but then conversely if the song is kept, the crowd that’s convinced it’s racist will say the school is purporting racist traditions (whether or not that’s actually true). The emails are a bad look and while not totally accurate, the perception in the media and on social media is that the song is completely racist in both its history and lyrical content and that the university is supporting those ideologies. That’s a lot to overcome at this point in 2021. Frankly the admin failed by allowing this to fester for so long and not working immediately to find ways to reclaim it through something like a PR Campaign with famous alumni discussing what The Eyes means to them or something along those lines.

[n64ra 1078]

35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

According to the university, yes.

https://www.utsystem.edu/board-of-regents/former-regents/william-lambdin-prather

President Prather also provided the University with the words "The Eyes of Texas are upon you," which later became the title of the institution's official song. As a student, he reportedly heard Washington and Lee University President Robert E. Lee tell students, "Young men, the eyes of the South are upon you." President Prather changed the words slightly and used them as opening and parting comments he made to students. "The Eyes of Texas are upon you" was placed under trademark registration in 1936.

Wow. I thought it was a cold, hard fact that Prather heard Lee say, "the eyes of the South are upon you." Now that I read it's just reported, geez, F those idiots presenting it as such.

[UncleSonny 6564]

23 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm pretty sure the administration is leaning strongly in favor of keeping the song.  I don't think Sark would have been as definite about singing it if that weren't the case. 

They clearly were and honesty that’s where this was all headed. The reason this thread exploded the last few days wasn’t because of the woke mob or cancel culture or anyone’s other favorite hobby horse. It was the racist emails from donors that were published. 

The players haven’t said shit about the eyes  since after OU and they all stayed on the field since then. Sark said the song would remain from day 1 and got no public pushback from the team. This thing could have been dying down and handled internally if not for racists being unable to keep their racism to themselves. 
 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by UncleSonny

[David Dennison 18694]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

So what’s your position? Do you think the song should be removed?

Personally, no. However, because this is a PR disaster that will continue to fester with every new class of incoming freshmen, I think the prudent thing for the university to do would be to retire it.

[jimmyjazz 45606]

It's not as if the University has failed to ever act in righting historical wrongs.  It's OK to draw the line at nebulous slights with no serious evidence.  I mean, a "university of the first class" might actually act in concert with that perception, no?  

For fuck's sake, dozens if not hundreds of schools in the US wear far more significant and legitimate racist badges of dishonor.  We don't have to act on every accusation.  If the evidence supports the idea that Prather had nefarious intent, then fine, kill the song.  I don't want to sing that shit, either.  I just don't see it based on what I've seen so far.

[Wally Pryor 5245]

39 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'm pretty sure the administration is leaning strongly in favor of keeping the song. 

The song isn't going to be dropped.   Not going to happen. 

Bank on that.   Almost literally. 

[David Dennison 18694]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

It's not as if the University has failed to ever act in righting historical wrongs.  It's OK to draw the line at nebulous slights with no serious evidence.  I mean, a "university of the first class" might actually act in concert with that perception, no?  

For fuck's sake, dozens if not hundreds of schools in the US wear far more significant and legitimate racist badges of dishonor.  We don't have to act on every accusation.  If the evidence supports the idea that Prather had nefarious intent, then fine, kill the song.  I don't want to sing that shit, either.  I just don't see it based on what I've seen so far.

Again, intent is irrelevant. It's the connection to Lee and the Confederacy that matters. Add in minstrelsy and black face and you have a public relations nightmare that will eventually force the university's hand.

When that happens is anyone's guess.

[David Dennison 18694]

1 minute ago, Wally Pryor said:

The song isn't going to be dropped.   Not going to happen. 

Bank on that.   Almost literally. 

Daniel Snyder and legions of Washington fans thought the same thing about their former name, logo, and mascot.

 

[Revolution512 1480]

It doesn’t matter if it stays or goes, either end result changes nothing for any party involved. 

[PassiveAggressiveCoach 118]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Daniel Snyder and legions of Washington fans thought the same thing about their former name, logo, and mascot.

 

horrible analogy.

[Horn of Gabriel 1590]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Again, intent is irrelevant. It's the connection to Lee and the Confederacy that matters. Add in minstrelsy and black face and you have a public relations nightmare that will eventually force the university's hand.

When that happens is anyone's guess.

Zero evidence of blackface in EOT original performance.  Lots of "maybe" or "could have been."  Minstrel show has been established.  You don't need to embellish and make up new facts.