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Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

Goo Punch

By Goo Punch
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Deej
Deej

Considering it is sung to the tune of "I've Been Working on the Railroad", shouldn't the Chinese students be the ones with the problem?

NorthLoop
NorthLoop

I'm a Trump hating liberal and hope the Republican party withers and dies before my children are of voting age.  That being said....  The song isn't racist. The bullshit 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon

crash_davis
crash_davis

I don't like some if the demands but I'm not a black athlete representing the University of Texas. I don't know what it's like to deal with the fucked up system that they've grown up under.  Fuck

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, perfectchaos007 said:

Critics have been fairly quiet since the EoT report released. I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thing but I assume it’s good news for those in favor of keeping the song 

I recommend you read the report. Or at least the open letter at the beginning. A few paragraphs from the open letter composed by the chair of the committee.

Quote

The history of this institution, the state, and indeed our nation, in many ways, is told through “The Eyes of Texas": the noble, transcendent moments, as well as those that speak to exclusion and oppression. Our collective charge is to understand, reflect, and digest this chronicle, and strategize how we can in fact meet the challenge of being an institution welcoming and befitting of, in the words of lyricist John Lang Sinclair, “eyes of every hue.”

This report is not a cudgel to settle a debate. Instead, it is a call to accountability. While many school songs are hubristic statements of pride, “The Eyes of Texas” is a song lyrically that reminds the singer that the best is expected, at all times, from this moment to eternity. Our task as a university community – students, staff, faculty, alumni, friends of the university, and the larger community – is to acknowledge our history in its entirety, understand where we must do better, and chart a plan of action living up to our espoused values. As Toni Morrison stated, “This culture doesn't encourage dwelling on, let alone coming to terms with, the truth about the past.” Our challenge is to do this, and our actions must be clear, measurable, and enduring.

Further, we must collectively commit to the work, finding common ground through foundations of respect: reasonable people can come to different conclusions and personal feelings about “The Eyes of Texas.” Traditions do not endure through disrespect, coercion, or threat; indeed, the song is often an entry point for deeper discussions about identity, belonging, and respect. Our community needs to build courageous capacity for these necessary and needed conversations, not just in the circles we inhabit, but also in those less familiar to us – all equally essential parts of the Longhorn Nation.

 

 

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Your Mom

Your Mom 4956

Posted
Posted

I’m not seeing the connection between Lee and the song at all.  Are you saying that anytime that anyone says “the eyes of_______ are upon you.” thats it’s related to Lee?  Because if that’s what you’re saying it’s really fucking stupid.  That was and still is a common figure of speech. It’s older than Lee. 
 

Sombody talking to Robert E.  Lee once scratched their balls too. Does that link all future ball scratching to Lee?  Am I being racist at the moment as I type with one hand and scratch my balls with the other? 

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 34407

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

I’m not seeing the connection between Lee and the song at all.  Are you saying that anytime that anyone says “the eyes of_______ are upon you.” thats it’s related to Lee?  Because if that’s what you’re saying it’s really fucking stupid.  That was and still is a common figure of speech. It’s older than Lee. 
 

Sombody talking to Robert E.  Lee once scratched their balls too. Does that link all future ball scratching to Lee?  Am I being racist at the moment as I type with one hand and scratch my balls with the other? 

Please tell me you're not actually this stupid, mom.

Or is it just that you don't know who Prather is? The quoted text literally gives the origin of the specific phrase The eyes of Texas are upon you which then led to the school alma mater. Your misdirection about the phrase being used in other contexts is completely irrelevant.

I swear, some of y'all take the stupidity on one side of the discussion and must say to yourselves "Oh yeah, I'm gonna out-stupid those sons of bitches, just watch!"

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9918

Posted
Posted
On 3/7/2021 at 2:21 PM, sheeeit said:

Just one quick comment on minstrel shows.  People have to understand that there is no common type of "minstrel" show.  The ones in Texas at the time were much more akin to variety shows than anything related to racism.  Most had no performers in black face at all.  

Per the info found when this shit came up previously, the author of the song wanted to make a school song and poke fun at the current UT Pres.  The song was NOT created to be performed at a minstrel show.  It was not created by people associated with putting on the minstrel show.  It had exactly nothing to do with the show.  The truth is that in those times there was literally almost no way for the song creators to perform it for an audience that included the school president except at the minstrel shows.  The only reason it was performed there was because the creators knew that the school president would be in attendance.  Thats it.  The Lee association stuff is stupidly ignorant.  The minstrel show connection has been taken wildly out of context.  There just isnt anything there.

The reality is that a professor stirred up racial animosity during an emotional time on campus and convinced some 18-22 year olds that something was racist and none of the 18-22 year olds spent any time researching the facts for themselves.  I dont blame the 18-22 year olds.  And I dont blame the professor.  Just pointing out what happened.  My guess is that all of this will be pointed out in the report.

I completely disagree with those that are saying that because something offends a particular group that other people have no right to question them.  Of course they have the right to do that and they should do that.  I am not talking about criticising them or belittling them or anything similar.  I am saying that the offended group needs to have all of the relevant facts before making snap judgments.  Allowing traditions and other things to be cancelled based on extremely weak or made up or taken out of context information, is always bad.  I especially think those that maintain that they personally do not think the song is racist but think it needs to go because some of the players think it is are lacking in character.  If you believe in something and you have researched all of the relevant facts about it and still feel that way then you should never back down.  Because you may not care about the song or other types of traditions but one day this same thing will happen to something that you do care about.

Careful. David will run along soon with a strongly worded sentence. 

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Cajun

Cajun 11771

Posted
Posted

Dorothy clicked her heels in Wizard Of Oz.  

Know who else clicked their heels?  NAZIS!!!!

Cancel her and her little dog Toto too!  While at it, cancel the band Toto!  Rains in Africa?  Sheeeeeit.  Promoting the mass drowning of brown people?  Monsters!

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Tex Pete

Tex Pete 21394

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Please tell me you're not actually this stupid, mom.

Or is it just that you don't know who Prather is? The quoted text literally gives the origin of the specific phrase The eyes of Texas are upon you which then led to the school alma mater. Your misdirection about the phrase being used in other contexts is completely irrelevant.

I swear, some of y'all take the stupidity on one side of the discussion and must say to yourselves "Oh yeah, I'm gonna out-stupid those sons of bitches, just watch!"

But Lee was in no way using the phrase in the context of race. Obviously, Prather wasn’t either. 
 

There are still racists and racist things in this world. We don’t need to invent racism so we can tear it down. 

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Cajun

Cajun 11771

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, UncleSonny said:

It's pretty funny the amount of real estate DD takes in some of your heads but by all means keep dunking on him if it makes y'all feel good. God knows he has been pretty annoying in this thread. 

Pretty embarrassing for you guys to keep harping on Sterns though. Yeah, he's not good at football and we'll likely be better without him on the field, but what about this is so offensive to you guys? 

 

Pretty funny that a guy with over 400 posts on the subject is described by you as occupying "real estate" in our heads.

Did you even think before typing that out?

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Paco

Paco 1947

Posted
Posted
Please tell me you're not actually this stupid, mom.
Or is it just that you don't know who Prather is? The quoted text literally gives the origin of the specific phrase The eyes of Texas are upon you which then led to the school alma mater. Your misdirection about the phrase being used in other contexts is completely irrelevant.
I swear, some of y'all take the stupidity on one side of the discussion and must say to yourselves "Oh yeah, I'm gonna out-stupid those sons of bitches, just watch!"
You know what else is irrelevant? The fact the connection to Lee was mentioned at all. The ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSITY has ties to slavery and the confederacy. The 40 acres was donated by a Confederate officer. It's the flagship university of a slave state. For fuck's sake.
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Tex Pete

Tex Pete 21394

Posted
Posted
Just now, Paco said:
57 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:
Please tell me you're not actually this stupid, mom.
Or is it just that you don't know who Prather is? The quoted text literally gives the origin of the specific phrase The eyes of Texas are upon you which then led to the school alma mater. Your misdirection about the phrase being used in other contexts is completely irrelevant.
I swear, some of y'all take the stupidity on one side of the discussion and must say to yourselves "Oh yeah, I'm gonna out-stupid those sons of bitches, just watch!"

You know what else is irrelevant? The fact the connection to Lee was mentioned at all. The ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSITY has ties to slavery and the confederacy. The 40 acres was donated by a Confederate officer. It's the flagship university of a slave state. For fuck's sake.

Selective outrage is so confusing. 

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6790

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Pretty funny that a guy with over 400 posts on the subject is described by you as occupying "real estate" in our heads.

Yeah and you poor guys seem to have read and internalized each and every one of them. Wasn’t being sarcastic when I said he had been annoying on this thread. I sincerely hope all of you got the catharsis you needed by mentioning him endlessly today.

Separate from all that plenty of y’all continued to embarrass yourself. 

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Cajun

Cajun 11771

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Yeah and you poor guys seem to have read and internalized each and every one of them. Wasn’t being sarcastic when I said he had been annoying on this thread. I sincerely hope all of you got the catharsis you needed by mentioning him endlessly today.

Separate from all that plenty of y’all continued to embarrass yourself. 

Nah, when you get spammed over and over hundreds of times you remember some shit.

You should really think a little more before running this line.  Might help in the credibility department when you sit on your imaginary mountaintop declaring who's embarrassing themselves.

lulz

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6790

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Nah, when you get spammed over and over hundreds of times you remember some shit.

You should really think a little more before running this line.  Might help in the credibility department when you sit on your imaginary mountaintop declaring who's embarrassing themselves.

lulz

You seem mad, which makes me feel awful because this is such a big day for you and now I'm ruining it.

Also, I didn't mention or quote you so why are you telling on yourself?

35 minutes ago, Cajun said:

Dorothy clicked her heels in Wizard Of Oz.  

Know who else clicked their heels?  NAZIS!!!!

Cancel her and her little dog Toto too!  While at it, cancel the band Toto!  Rains in Africa?  Sheeeeeit.  Promoting the mass drowning of brown people?  Monsters!

Ah, there is it.

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Cajun

Cajun 11771

Posted
Posted (edited)

The guy who tells everyone they are embarrassing themselves now lobs the "you seem mad?" 12 year old sick burn?  Allthewhile white knighting a dude he pretends to be annoyed by?

Rich.

Unintentional comedy is my favorite kind, so I thank you for that.

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GTNY

GTNY 284

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

I recommend you read the report. Or at least the open letter at the beginning. A few paragraphs from the open letter composed by the chair of the committee.

 

 

I recommend you read and comprehend it too:

"These historical facts add complexity and richness to the story of a song that debuted in a racist setting, exceedingly common for the time, but, as the preponderance of research showed, had no racist intent in that it was intended to parody the famous phrases of the university president."

"The committee found no evidence the lyrics were intended to show nostalgia for slavery"

On your own page 11 "The University Record for October 1899 printed that speech; in it, as printed, Prather quoted Aristotle, Harvard president Charles Eliot, William Makepeace Thackeray, and the authors of the Texas Declaration of Independence, but he made no mention of Robert E. Lee, and he did not tell the students that “the eyes of Texas” were upon them. Nor did the Austin Daily Statesman’s transcript of Prather’s inaugural address contain any reference to Lee or the eyes of Texas."

The speech in question was either 1899 or 1903. The report also notes this "Finally on this point, the committee noted numerous examples of the formulation “the eyes of ___________ are upon you” around the world and long predating 1903. "

Edited by GTNY
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zjaponica

zjaponica 6

Posted
Posted

glory found from the eyes of texas supposedly comes to those who work hard all the live long day. if this is the case, then the song may not be racist because the students wanted to point out the discrepancy between the lack of compensation blacks got for all the work done to poke fun at the school fathers cherished beliefs.

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Run Run Run Punt

Run Run Run Punt 145

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Are you under the impression that my watching that game gave them money? Do you understand how advertising works? They have to spend more money the higher viewership is.

(Although it's a few steps away in the process when stadium naming rights are negotiated)

You were explaining to us how noble a person you are because you won’t buy a Mercedes because of that company’s past. Just figured if you felt that strongly then you would disassociate with anything related to Mercedes. Guess not.

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jinx

jinx 2636

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, mdleast said:

Can I get a playlist of you guys’ other favorite railroad based songs? TIA


 I haven’t seen it brought up that the track team was fundraising by minstrel show. Are we expecting it to be disbanded?

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Tex Pete

Tex Pete 21394

Posted
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, South Austin said:

So now that it’s settled the song isn’t racist, can we all agree that it’s stupid?

So is “Boola Boola” and about 3/4 of the shit I did in college. And?

Edited by Tex Pete
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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, GTNY said:

I recommend you read and comprehend it too:

"These historical facts add complexity and richness to the story of a song that debuted in a racist setting, exceedingly common for the time, but, as the preponderance of research showed, had no racist intent in that it was intended to parody the famous phrases of the university president."

"The committee found no evidence the lyrics were intended to show nostalgia for slavery"

On your own page 11 "The University Record for October 1899 printed that speech; in it, as printed, Prather quoted Aristotle, Harvard president Charles Eliot, William Makepeace Thackeray, and the authors of the Texas Declaration of Independence, but he made no mention of Robert E. Lee, and he did not tell the students that “the eyes of Texas” were upon them. Nor did the Austin Daily Statesman’s transcript of Prather’s inaugural address contain any reference to Lee or the eyes of Texas."

The speech in question was either 1899 or 1903. The report also notes this "Finally on this point, the committee noted numerous examples of the formulation “the eyes of ___________ are upon you” around the world and long predating 1903. "

What do you think I am not comprehending? 

Are you under the impression that the report establishes the confederacy, General Lee, and General Gregg played no role in the origin of the eyes?   If so, you are misreading the report.  There are two speeches by Prather noted on that page.  One recorded in October 1899 and another recorded December 1900.  The December 1900 speech clearly established that Prather (two years before the eyes was written) linked the eyes to the confederacy. He refers to both Lee and Gregg (confederate generals) in the speech, and the quotes Gregg as stating "the eyes of texas are upon you" and "the eyes of General Lee are upon you." 

Then in 30's, the Dean of Engineering again links the confederacy and Lee (leaving out Gregg) back to eyes.  

There is no reason to hide from any of that.  Those are facts in the report.

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 41649

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Your Mom said:

I’m not seeing the connection between Lee and the song at all.  Are you saying that anytime that anyone says “the eyes of_______ are upon you.” thats it’s related to Lee?  Because if that’s what you’re saying it’s really fucking stupid.  That was and still is a common figure of speech. It’s older than Lee. 
 

Sombody talking to Robert E.  Lee once scratched their balls too. Does that link all future ball scratching to Lee?  Am I being racist at the moment as I type with one hand and scratch my balls with the other? 

Fuck. I just scratched my balls. 

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BurntOrange&White

BurntOrange&White 41649

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, UncleSonny said:

Yeah and you poor guys seem to have read and internalized each and every one of them. Wasn’t being sarcastic when I said he had been annoying on this thread. I sincerely hope all of you got the catharsis you needed by mentioning him endlessly today.

Separate from all that plenty of y’all continued to embarrass yourself. 

Imagine white knighting David Dennison/Kevin. 
 

 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Please tell me you're not actually this stupid, mom.

Or is it just that you don't know who Prather is? The quoted text literally gives the origin of the specific phrase The eyes of Texas are upon you which then led to the school alma mater. Your misdirection about the phrase being used in other contexts is completely irrelevant.

I swear, some of y'all take the stupidity on one side of the discussion and must say to yourselves "Oh yeah, I'm gonna out-stupid those sons of bitches, just watch!"

The report states that the story of Prather's inspiration for the saying came from TU Taylor's memoir, which has been shown to be fraught with various errors.  It goes on to say:

Many accounts over the years have stated as fact that the saying “The eyes of Texas are upon you” was inspired by Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee, who was thought to have often said “the eyes of the South are upon you” as president of Washington College after the Civil War, where Prather had studied. Lee was clearly a beloved figure to Prather, but no primary source has been found connecting the phrase as something that Lee used. The oft-repeated claims that Lee was the inspiration all seem to trace back to a 1938 memoir by retired engineering dean T.U. Taylor. The committee’s research revealed multiple errors in Taylor’s remembrance. What is more, research failed to discover in the records of Washington & Lee University (as Washington College is now called) evidence that Lee ever closed an address to the students with the phrase attributed to him by the Taylor account.

Moreover, the fact that it is generally a fairly common and ancient figure of speech dilutes any special connection to R. E. Lee.  Because truly, any racial connotation requires both use by Lee and in that particular context, at a southern college and invoking the eyes of the South, which has a lost cause sort of connotation.  Absent that, it's a turn of phrase and not much more.

The apocryphal story of Gregg invoking the eyes of General Lee and Prather in turn invoking the eyes of Texas is really too attenuated to support some claim of racial animus due to connection to the Confederacy.  The "Eyes of the South" thing is a bit less attenuated due to the context, but has no factual support.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The report states that the story of Prather's inspiration for the saying came from TU Taylor's memoir, which has been shown to be fraught with various errors.  It goes on to say:

Many accounts over the years have stated as fact that the saying “The eyes of Texas are upon you” was inspired by Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee, who was thought to have often said “the eyes of the South are upon you” as president of Washington College after the Civil War, where Prather had studied. Lee was clearly a beloved figure to Prather, but no primary source has been found connecting the phrase as something that Lee used. The oft-repeated claims that Lee was the inspiration all seem to trace back to a 1938 memoir by retired engineering dean T.U. Taylor. The committee’s research revealed multiple errors in Taylor’s remembrance. What is more, research failed to discover in the records of Washington & Lee University (as Washington College is now called) evidence that Lee ever closed an address to the students with the phrase attributed to him by the Taylor account.

Moreover, the fact that it is generally a fairly common and ancient figure of speech dilutes any special connection to R. E. Lee.  Because truly, any racial connotation requires both use by Lee and in that particular context, at a southern college and invoking the eyes of the South, which has a lost cause sort of connotation.  Absent that, it's a turn of phrase and not much more.

I recommend you take a look at page 11 of the report and note the discussion of Prather’s speech in November 1900. The quotes from the summary you provided do not appear to clearly line up with the contents of the report (page 11)

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

I recommend you take a look at page 11 of the report and note the discussion of Prather’s speech in November 1900. The quotes from the summary you provided do not appear to clearly line up with the contents of the report (page 11)

See my edit.

Prather cited not Lee, but Gregg, and not saying "the eyes of the South," but rather "the eyes of General Lee," which is more consistent with the fact that it is a general exhortation rather than some southern, lost cause shibboleth.

The whole Prather-Lee-Confederacy-Racism thing is beyond attenuated to the point of silly.

That Prather apparently idolized Lee I suppose is somewhat problematic, but the relationship to the song itself is like six degrees of Kevin Bacon.  It is fabricating a connection from the whole cloth.

The report also seems to establish that the song was not written FOR a minstrel show, but in a more general and innocent context and happened to be performed AT a minstrel show due to circumstance of available venue and Prather's attendance.  That is a problematic aspect of the song, but still does not establish that the song is the product of or intended to invoke racial animus.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Cajun

Cajun 11771

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Pos rep to both of the posters who accused me of “white knighting” while managing to resist the urge to use it as a jumping off point into another pointless slippery slope riff. 

Dilly Dilly!

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19441

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

See my edit.

Prather cited not Lee, but Gregg, and not saying "the eyes of the South," but rather "the eyes of General Lee," which is more consistent with the fact that it is a general exhortation rather than some southern, lost cause shibboleth.

The whole Prather-Lee-Confederacy-Racism thing is beyond attenuated to the point of silly.

That Prather apparently idolized Lee I suppose is somewhat problematic, but the relationship to the song itself is like six degrees of Kevin Bacon.  It is fabricating a connection from the whole cloth.

The report also seems to establish that the song was not written FOR a minstrel show, but in a more general and innocent context and happened to be performed AT a minstrel show due to circumstance of available venue and Prather's attendance.  That is a problematic aspect of the song, but still does not establish that the song is the product of or intended to invoke racial animus.

What's odd is how long the University promoted the Lee/Prather narrative.

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GW Hayduke

GW Hayduke 1957

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

See my edit.

Prather cited not Lee, but Gregg, and not saying "the eyes of the South," but rather "the eyes of General Lee," which is more consistent with the fact that it is a general exhortation rather than some southern, lost cause shibboleth.

The whole Prather-Lee-Confederacy-Racism thing is beyond attenuated to the point of silly.

That Prather apparently idolized Lee I suppose is somewhat problematic, but the relationship to the song itself is like six degrees of Kevin Bacon.  It is fabricating a connection from the whole cloth.

That’s fair but I don’t really see much of a difference between citing Gregg or Lee. They are both confederate generals. Seemingly Taylor in 30s misassigned statements by Gregg. But that error isn’t really consequential to the thrust that the confederacy was intertwined with the origin story of the eyes.  

We could say that other folks used phrases similar to the eyes (like Washington), but Prather and Taylor we’re quoting confederate generals and not Washington.  

Prather was UT president at the time of his Lee/Greg speech and at the time of composition of the eyes song. I may be mistaken but I also believe the debut of the song was at an event for Prather (which also happened to be a minstrel performance likely in black face).

I’m not convinced the connection is fabricated

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