Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[RomaVicta 29824]

1 hour ago, Alien Octopus said:

Stats don’t say what you think or what you want,  they say what they say.  

Mmmmhmmm. Sure. You're confusing facts with statistics.

What do I deduce from statistics inidicating that police are rarely punished or even reprimanded for violence against blacks (or just about anybody else for that matter)?

What do I deduce from the Floyd video and the lack of official response to it prior to protests?

What do I deduce from the repeated testimony of blacks about their experience of the police?

Do I clamp on to my favorite statistics about blacks killing blacks? Do I print them out and stuff them in my ears? Do I stop far from the truth when I find a convenient statistic?

You're pretty smug if you're sure your choice of statistics lays the entire racism issue or even the narrow issue of police brutality of blacks to rest. You're embracing ignorance while declaring yourself absolutely right.

[Stannis 232]

2 hours ago, Randolph Duke said:

I think he’s also ignoring such gems from The Supremes as Dred Scott, Plessy v Ferguson. 

I also think he is ignoring Bull Connor, and his type. And the 16th St Baptist Church. And federal troops in Little Rock. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

The history of violence driving civil rights reform far outweighs the history of the Supreme Court doing anything to bring about meaningful change in the streets of our nation. 

“The Supreme Court has made its decision, now let them enforce it.”

Dred Scott?  The 1857 decision that was superseded by the Constitutional Amendments that formed the bases of the cases I cited?

Plessy?  The 1896 decision that was abrogated by Brown and the other cases I cited?

No, I'm not ignoring those cases.  Neither did the Supreme Court when it overturned those decisions or the Congress and the States when they enacted the Reconstruction Amendments.

The Supreme Court's equal protection jurisprudence was not enforced by violent mobs.  It was enforced through the rule of law.  Sometimes that meant the deployment of troops.  The 101st Airborne Division being deployed to desegregate Little Rock public schools at the direction of our duly elected civilian government is a far cry from violent mobs destroying billions of dollars of private property and attacking the very agents of the state who were once called upon to enforce the Court's equal protection jurisprudence.

[BNB 100]

18 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

with regards to your last sentence.... I envy you

Can you give me a synopsis of what UT's African-American greats have stated on the subject?  Thanks!

Edited June 14, 2020 by BNB

[Randolph Duke 4034]

4 minutes ago, Stannis said:

Dred Scott?  The 1857 decision that was superseded by the Constitutional Amendments that formed the bases of the cases I cited?

Plessy?  The 1896 decision that was abrogated by Brown and the other cases I cited?

No, I'm not ignoring those cases.  Neither did the Supreme Court when it overturned those decisions or the Congress and the States when they enacted the Reconstruction Amendments.

The Supreme Court's equal protection jurisprudence was not enforced by violent mobs.  It was enforced through the rule of law.  Sometimes that meant the deployment of troops.  The 101st Airborne Division being deployed to desegregate Little Rock public schools at the direction of our duly elected civilian government is a far cry from violent mobs destroying billions of dollars of private property and attacking the very agents of the state who were once called upon to enforce the Court's equal protection jurisprudence.

I’m not going to argue the subject with you. The decisions of the Supreme Court mean nothing until and unless there is a commitment to see the right of the people enforced. The entire reason there is the current civil unrest is that there is no other reasonable alternative for the people being oppressed. 

Face it, we as a nation have failed. And people are demanding change. 

[CfRhTxStBobcats 600]

38 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I apologise, I misremembered your words. I agree that you did not claim to know black or athlete student feelings.

I will note that you said you were sure they didn't know the history, so my question is still what makes you think that? I don't know if this was a topic of conversation or not, but if there was conversation, I could easily see it being pretty internal given the general lack of public discourse at the time. In other words it seems like the starting point was something like "it wasn't brought up by me or my social circle therefore it didn't exist". I personally think that this is the default perception for any majority in any country, which includes me. I do the same at times, but am trying to be more conscious of it when I do.

 Again apologies for attributing the statement about knowing their feelings to you.

I like to think I'm up on my history, given my DAR award and all I received in high school. Lol. But I realize now that so many historical figures are more controversial than I ever learned in my history classes. I just believe if back in January if you would have asked students on campus who Jim Hogg was you may have gotten a former governor of Texas from a few, but how many knew he was racist? Hell, I didn't even know, but now that I do it doesn't surprise me.  I just learned from reading a post by randolphduke that Sul Ross was a real piece of shit confederate general. Why  they ever named a university after him I have no idea. Everyone of course knows of Robert E Lee and his statue may belong in a museum somewhere but not on a university campus or even public park. Bottom line is I think most of us agree everyone should feel comfortable on campus and I was sincere when I said change the names and take down the statues. What I meant by it changes nothing is it won't keep racist or bad cops from killing an innocent man or keep someone from hiring a person because of the color of their skin.  I guess every journey starts with a first step. I don't think we're too far apart on how we think about this issue, except for possibly donations to BLM. I said in a previous post have more scholarships for black students instead. I think that would be money better spent and less likely to line someone's pockets.

Damn, I mention R. D. in my post and there he is.

 

And by the way I saw you were the spelling Nazi when someone spelled a lot allot, it's apologize, not apologise. Just messing with you. If we all spent time correcting everyone's spelling nothing would get posted. I know I've had my share of misspellings.

Edited June 14, 2020 by CfRhTxStBobcats

[Woodrow Call 494]

Could replace it with something like Neck. 

[mdmost 42879]

This is good shit from Finger. 

Quote

Finger: With overdue audacity, UT players push for change

Mike Finger June 13, 2020 Updated: June 14, 2020 5:33 p.m.

 

Comments

UT athletes no longer should have to stand for school song “The Eyes of Texas,” which has blackface minstrel-show roots.

Photo: Brad Tollefson /Associated Press

There was a time in my life when the name “Littlefield” held significant meaning. It stirred up something inside of me, and that something was hunger.

Back in the late 1990s, upon matriculating at our state’s flagship school, I pursued no form of knowledge more enthusiastically than I sought cheap food. One of my earliest discoveries was a spot on the south edge of campus, right next to Littlefield Fountain, where a vendor would set up his mini-trailer and hawk bargain-priced sausage wraps and cherry lemonade.

If, in those days, I ever took a few seconds to even skim the tribute to Confederate soldiers that used to be inscribed on the side of that fountain, I don’t remember it. It wasn’t until years later that I read about George Washington Littlefield, the former Confederate major who became one of the University of Texas’ biggest donors and spent his time as a regent dedicated to making the school as “South-centric” as possible.

I always did notice, however, several of the statues he commissioned. On those walks to class, toward buildings named for other unexamined ghosts, I’d take a gulp from my lemonade cup and look up at the monuments to Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, and it seemed both shameful and perplexing.

 

After all, if this was a place to honor sworn enemies, where were the busts of Jackie Sherrill and Barry Switzer?

Still, it’s not like I ever complained about it to anyone in authority, and I didn’t know of anyone who did. As far as we knew, those corroded green-bronze figures had stood there forever, and forever they’d remain. It wasn’t like students had the power to change anything anyway.

So what a grand discovery it is, now, to see students who don’t think that way anymore. In this, the age of so-called “influencers,” teenagers have learned how to wield a form of power we couldn’t have comprehended in the grunge era, and not all of it is meme-related frivolity.

 

When dozens of current UT athletes banded together Friday and called for changes ranging from renaming campus buildings to altering the school song, some of their requests were long overdue, and some of them were outside of the box, and some of them were unrealistic.

But even if all some of the participants did was attach a prewritten two-page letter to a Twitter post, the whole endeavor was admirably audacious, and that especially applied to the move they chose for leverage. The players did not threaten to stop playing or practicing. Instead, they vowed to hold back on meeting with recruits and alumni.

For an athletic program known for two things — signing lots of talent and generating lots of money — the players couldn’t have picked a more fitting cudgel. And as for their specific criticisms of a campus that long has struggled with issues related to race? They made plenty of valid points.

There is no defensible reason why UT math classes should be held in a building named for Robert Lee Moore, who at first refused to allow black students in his classroom after the university’s integration and later told a black student he could take his course, “but you start with a C and can only go down from there.”

 

There is no defensible reason why physics classes should be held in a building named for Theophilus Painter, who as school president in 1946 denied a black student named Heman Sweatt admission to UT’s law school and fought it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court in a case Sweatt won.

 

There is no defensible reason why, in a shrine of a football stadium teeming with corporate sponsorships and homages to donors, there is nothing named for Julius Whittier, the San Antonio native who in 1969 became the school’s first black varsity football player.

Whittier, a successful attorney who only hinted at the racism he endured while paving the way for Earl Campbell, Ricky Williams and Vince Young, died two years ago after years of battling symptoms of brain damage his sister is convinced stemmed from his college career.

The players are right. Whittier is worth memorializing.

 

As for their other requests? Inner-city outreach programs might take some time, and donations to black organizations might be complicated, but these are well-intentioned undertakings. Banning “The Eyes of Texas,” the school song that has been criticized for its early-1900s blackface minstrel-show roots, probably is a long shot, but it’s certainly reasonable that players not be required to participate in the singing ritual.

 

Besides, why should they place limits on how many minds they might change? Five years ago, as a grownup, I got up on a Sunday morning and walked past Littlefield Fountain to watch crews take down the statue of Davis, because I wanted to see it for myself. Student government leaders at the time had promised they’d get it done, despite everyone telling them they couldn’t, and they did it.

In 2016, the Confederate inscription was removed from the fountain. The next year, Lee’s statue came down.

Now, UT players want the name of Littlefield, who praised the Confederacy until his death in 1920, gone from the fountain.

 

Of course, there will be stubborn curmudgeons who complain about all of this. They mistakenly equate the players’ requests with ripping pages out of an old book, not realizing that, on the contrary, they’re adding a new chapter that provides better context to the ones that came before.

And for those who worry about erasing the past? Let’s get one thing straight.

Ignoring history isn’t removing a monument to unworthy men.

Ignoring history is ordering a sausage wrap, staring directly at that monument, and never asking why somebody built the dang thing in the first place.

mfinger@express-news.net

 

[Serak The Preparer 3430]

12 minutes ago, CfRhTxStBobcats said:

I like to think I'm up on my history, given my DAR award and all I received in high school. Lol. But I realize now that so many historical figures are more controversial than I ever learned in my history classes. I just believe if back in January if you would have asked students on campus who Jim Hogg was you may have gotten a former governor of Texas from a few, but how many knew he was racist? Hell, I didn't even know, but now that I do it doesn't surprise me.  I just learned from reading a post by randolphduke that Sul Ross was a real piece of shit confederate general. Why  they ever named a university after him I have no idea. Everyone of course knows of Robert E Lee and his statue may belong in a museum somewhere but not on a university campus or even public park. Bottom line is I think most of us agree everyone should feel comfortable on campus and I was sincere when I said change the names and take down the statues. What I meant by it changes nothing is it won't keep racist or bad cops from killing an innocent man or keep someone from hiring a person because of the color of their skin.  I guess every journey starts with a first step. I don't think we're too far apart on how we think about this issue, except for possibly donations to BLM. I said in a previous post have more scholarships for black students instead. I think that would be money better spent and less likely to line someone's pockets.

Damn, I mention R. D. in my post and there he is.

 

And by the way I saw you were the spelling Nazi when someone spelled a lot allot, it's apologize, not apologise. Just messing with you. If we all spent time correcting everyone's spelling nothing would get posted. I know I've had my share of misspellings.

All good friend, but I was not the spelling Nazi. Even for me, that splinter in my eye is too big, so that was someone else.

[CfRhTxStBobcats 600]

9 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

All good friend, but I was not the spelling Nazi. Even for me, that splinter in my eye is too big, so that was someone else.

I apologize for the false accusation. Sometimes my memory isn't very good and I'm too lazy to go back and look at things, otherwise we could have resolved our differences and misunderstandings long ago. Peace!

[CfRhTxStBobcats 600]

38 minutes ago, Randolph Duke said:

I’m not going to argue the subject with you. The decisions of the Supreme Court mean nothing until and unless there is a commitment to see the right of the people enforced. The entire reason there is the current civil unrest is that there is no other reasonable alternative for the people being oppressed. 

Face it, we as a nation have failed. And people are demanding change. 

Thanks for the Sul Ross history lesson in the aggy thread. I had no idea what a POS that guy was.

[MrBig 5292]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Cliff’s notes of their takes?

Arguing about whether or not the song carries racial undertones because it may or may not have been written FOR a minstrel show, it just happened to be first performed AT a minstrel show. 

Apex said black people lack fathers. 

And some people are going to drop Texas football if we drop the song. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by MrBig

[BradInATX 9208]

12 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Arguing about whether or not the song carries racial undertones because it may or may not have been written FOR a minstrel show, it just happened to be first performed AT a minstrel show. 

Apex said black people lack fathers. 

And some people are going to drop Texas football if we drop the song. 

 

You forgot the part where we've all decided that there is no systemic prejudice against minorities in our justice system, because OJ Simpson was found not guilty. Powerful stuff.

[Js1 85156]

15 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Arguing about whether or not the song carries racial undertones because it may or may not have been written FOR a minstrel show, it just happened to be first performed AT a minstrel show. 

Apex said black people lack fathers. 

And some people are going to drop Texas football if we drop the song. 

Good riddance. 

[brown water 3761]

I’ve read a sample of this thread.  Not random - essentially the first several pages and the last few. The following thoughts keep coming up. Apologies if I’m beating a dead horse.  
 

1. I’m happy to see mostly civil discourse on a polarizing subject. By mostly civil I’m referring to a willingness to listen, admit a comment could have been misunderstood and eventually be willing to agree to disagree 

2. I’m sure somewhere in the pages I skipped someone has suggested the “Eyes of Texas” demand was brilliant negotiating strategy. I doubt it is the most material grievance but, as evidenced by the focus here, the one that can be leveraged into the most material change.  Kudos to the athletes for a really smart move.

3.  Change needs to happen.  It won’t if we rationalize why the ones that impact us personally aren’t the changes that should occur.  That mindset resists any change.  Personal sacrifice and painful introspection are needed.  As I type this I’m listening to a couple people discuss how taking the confederate flag down at nascar races is wrong.  And that amplifies my position.  

 

 

 

 

[pyrohornIII 4812]

1 hour ago, mdmost said:

This is good shit from Finger. 

 

"Of course, there will be stubborn curmudgeons who complain about all of this. They mistakenly equate the players’ requests with ripping pages out of an old book, not realizing that, on the contrary, they’re adding a new chapter that provides better context to the ones that came before.

And for those who worry about erasing the past? Let’s get one thing straight.

Ignoring history isn’t removing a monument to unworthy men.

Ignoring history is ordering a sausage wrap, staring directly at that monument, and never asking why somebody built the dang thing in the first place."

mfinger@express-news.net

 

Well said.    This is what we need to focus on.   For years the victors wrote the history.  Now the masses are catching up and wanting a rewrite.   We went through this with the Alamo and its story not too long ago and survived, wiser even.  

[Alien Octopus 506]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Mmmmhmmm. Sure. You're confusing facts with statistics.

What do I deduce from statistics inidicating that police are rarely punished or even reprimanded for violence against blacks (or just about anybody else for that matter)?

What do I deduce from the Floyd video and the lack of official response to it prior to protests?

What do I deduce from the repeated testimony of blacks about their experience of the police?

Do I clamp on to my favorite statistics about blacks killing blacks? Do I print them out and stuff them in my ears? Do I stop far from the truth when I find a convenient statistic?

You're pretty smug if you're sure your choice of statistics lays the entire racism issue or even the narrow issue of police brutality of blacks to rest. You're embracing ignorance while declaring yourself absolutely right.

I never declared myself anything. This is where I know your are full of crap. Anyone who starts an argument with forget the stats, I have testimonials, is a conman. A conman who has the balls to call me smug.

The call for police accountability and the race baiting you continue to promote are two entirely different issues. If BLM is so concerned about police accountability, where were the fuck were they when officer Grimes executed two people in their homes down here in Htown earlier this year? I saw no protests. Oh yeah those impoverished people were white. Does not fit narrative.
 

Go to BLM website and see all the community things they are doing. I mean the site is jam packed with such meaningful actions like protesting ICE, because that really helps the black community?!  I particularly liked the copy in spanish. Really doing a lot for the black community.  I mean however could they read the action packet without a spanish translation? Looks like a typical voter drive, nice tshirts though.

As for the rest  of your drivel; I am positive that no one ever in the history of ever getting nabbed by the man was ever in the wrong. I mean I was not speeding, I am innocent. No one in prison has been or ever is guilty.

Just listen to their testimonials...Queue the video the BLM just paid a black artist to create, as per their stated mandate.

The myth of white cops systematically and disproportionately eradicating black men Is a fantasy that has been regurgitated by the progressive machine now incarnated by BLM. Provide data to back up this basic point or get off your high horse. Come on man, you doubled down, called me stupid, smug and ignorant, negged me. The only thing you have not done is gone over the stats? Why is that? 

[Neonmoon 38127]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:19 PM, Goo Punch said:

 

 

This is what the players think. 

[Veerbone 116]

3 minutes ago, brown water said:

I’ve read a sample of this thread.  Not random - essentially the first several pages and the last few. The following thoughts keep coming up. Apologies if I’m beating a dead horse.  
 

1. I’m happy to see mostly civil discourse on a polarizing subject. By mostly civil I’m referring to a willingness to listen, admit a comment could have been misunderstood and eventually be willing to agree to disagree 

2. I’m sure somewhere in the pages I skipped someone has suggested the “Eyes of Texas” demand was brilliant negotiating strategy. I doubt it is the most material grievance but, as evidenced by the focus here, the one that can be leveraged into the most material change.  Kudos to the athletes for a really smart move.

3.  Change needs to happen.  It won’t if we rationalize why the ones that impact us personally aren’t the changes that should occur.  That mindset resists any change.  Personal sacrifice and painful introspection are needed.  As I type this I’m listening to a couple people discuss how taking the confederate flag down at nascar races is wrong.  And that amplifies my position.  

 

 

 

 

I too feel “The Eyes” was more strategy than a priority.  Perhaps I’m looking too deep but even the wording suggests “at least don’t require us to sing it without issue”.

I hope/feel this works out in a very mutually beneficial & satisfactory way for everyone.  

[RomaVicta 29824]

20 minutes ago, Alien Octopus said:

I never declared myself anything. This is where I know your are full of crap. Anyone who starts an argument with forget the stats, I have testimonials, is a conman. A conman who has the balls to call me smug.

The call for police accountability and the race baiting you continue to promote are two entirely different issues. If BLM is so concerned about police accountability, where were the fuck were they when officer Grimes executed two people in their homes down here in Htown earlier this year? I saw no protests. Oh yeah those impoverished people were white. Does not fit narrative.
 

Go to BLM website and see all the community things they are doing. I mean the site is jam packed with such meaningful actions like protesting ICE, because that really helps the black community?!  I particularly liked the copy in spanish. Really doing a lot for the black community.  I mean however could they read the action packet without a spanish translation? Looks like a typical voter drive, nice tshirts though.

As for the rest  of your drivel; I am positive that no one ever in the history of ever getting nabbed by the man was ever in the wrong. I mean I was not speeding, I am innocent. No one in prison has been or ever is guilty.

Just listen to their testimonials...Queue the video the BLM just paid a black artist to create, as per their stated mandate.

The myth of white cops systematically and disproportionately eradicating black men Is a fantasy that has been regurgitated by the progressive machine now incarnated by BLM. Provide data to back up this basic point or get off your high horse. Come on man, you doubled down, called me stupid, smug and ignorant, negged me. The only thing you have not done is gone over the stats? Why is that? 

Congrats. You've found a new way to make yourself argument proof. You're worth no more of time. You are exactly as I described. 

[Alien Octopus 506]

1 minute ago, RomaVicta said:

Congrats. You've found a new way to make yourself argument proof. You're worth no more of time. You are exactly as I described. 

Bbye toad.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Alien Octopus

[Js1 85156]

34 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

This is what the players think. 

Hell yeah on naming something in athletics after Whittier 

[brown water 3761]

1 hour ago, brown water said:

I’ve read a sample of this thread.  Not random - essentially the first several pages and the last few. The following thoughts keep coming up. Apologies if I’m beating a dead horse.  
 

1. I’m happy to see mostly civil discourse on a polarizing subject. By mostly civil I’m referring to a willingness to listen, admit a comment could have been misunderstood and eventually be willing to agree to disagree 

2. I’m sure somewhere in the pages I skipped someone has suggested the “Eyes of Texas” demand was brilliant negotiating strategy. I doubt it is the most material grievance but, as evidenced by the focus here, the one that can be leveraged into the most material change.  Kudos to the athletes for a really smart move.

3.  Change needs to happen.  It won’t if we rationalize why the ones that impact us personally aren’t the changes that should occur.  That mindset resists any change.  Personal sacrifice and painful introspection are needed.  As I type this I’m listening to a couple people discuss how taking the confederate flag down at nascar races is wrong.  And that amplifies my position.  

 

 

 

 

Ah well. Never the less. 

48 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Congrats. You've found a new way to make yourself argument proof. You're worth no more of time. You are exactly as I described. 

 

47 minutes ago, Alien Octopus said:

Bbye toad.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by brown water

[Apex73 313]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

This is not true. Players from the team have said it has bothered them in the past. There have been multiple news reports referenced in this thread showing how it was pointed out in the past but no one gave a shit. Again, you just refuse to acknowledge these facts because it does not fit your narrative. 
 

The rest of your post is more ignoring their point of view because it’s not your point of view, therefore it won’t achieve shit TO YOU. And since you have an opinion, you believe it should be given the same weight at the players opinion. 

 

Yea my opinion is worth just as much as any human beings. I support these guys and pay a lot of money to university year in and year out so I think my opinion holds a little weight.  Im not ignoring what they are saying I just disagree with the notion that it will have any lasting change.  Did it bring anybody closer together? Does it draw a light on police brutality? No it just strokes the ego in the fact that I got someone to comply with what I wanted.  Im allowed to have an opinion opposing what the kids want and can still support them.  You have no room for nuance in your point of thinking.  Everything isn't so "Black and White" so to speak.  You are just a victim to the narrative.  We keep electing the same people hoping for change then get mad when it doesn't.  I didn't put into policy that minorities should be treated unequal.  But you don't care.  You will just champion for anything that your narrative supports because it doesn't require you to think.  God forbid someone expressing their mind and give a different opinion.  

Edited June 15, 2020 by Apex73

[Macanudo 12936]

My brain has looked at this and said "Who created this list of grievances?  This sounds like someone besides a college kid."

And that's not minimizing changes that need to happen in this country.  But if we rename every building, institution, entity, etc that wasn't "woke" 25 or 50 or 100 or 150 years ago we're going to change A LOT.   This country is not perfect by any means.  But are we going to change everything? 

[Apex73 313]

4 hours ago, What? said:

I'm not "reaching," it's right there in the article.  Try fucking reading it : 

T.J. Finley, who graduated from UT with a bachelor's degree in kinesiology in the spring, stopped singing UT's iconic alma mater completely after being told that the song was first performed by students wearing blackface makeup in a turn-of-the-century minstrel show.

"At first, I was just so shocked that something like this could still exist," said Finley, a graduate student at the Duke University School of Law.

They interviewed multiple people, some who were uncomfortable, some who weren't.  The issue is that you claim that this is only now an issue, when clearly it predates the current situation and invalidates your claim on this point.

You stopped the quote at the point where it supports your point of view.  If anyone actually reads the article all the stuff I said is valid.  You are just cherrypicking the parts you want to express.

[Apex73 313]

4 hours ago, mdmost said:

You simply do not know this. You are assuming this because you think these players are being used by SJWs, BLM, and other nefarious groups you do not like. What may be more likely is some of the actually did know about this but never felt they had a platform to speak out about it lest they be chastised or lose their spot on the team. Look right at Kaepernick as why they might not have spoke out before. Then George Floyd happens and Herman encourages them to get active and speak out. Or maybe none of them knew about it and after recently learning about it, they have decided to use their high profile platform to speak up about it because it's something they could realistically work on and change to make the University a more welcoming place for everyone. I don't know. You don't know. Maybe we should let the players speak and hear what they have to say. 
 

Kaepernick was going to lose his spot anyway.  It's already been said by multiple sources inside the 49ers.  Him doing what he did was just the nail in the coffin.  Not saying that was justified but thats the way it works in business when you are trying to protect your brand. You're right.  We should listen to the players opinions and what they have to say and Ive done that. I still disagree with them but I support them.  Im not against our players and want them to succeed in football and in life but the idea that I don't agree with them and I think they are kind of being led astray by what the media and their emotions are telling them makes me a bad person is absurd.  I have just as much of a right to my opinion as they do and you guys are acting like I don't.  Get over your bullshit and start having a meaningful conversation.  Because by coming after me like you guys are doing, is only further solidifying my point.  

Edited June 15, 2020 by Apex73

[mdmost 42879]

6 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Kaepernick was going to lose his spot anyway.  It's already been said by multiple sources inside the 49ers.  Him doing what he did was just the nail in the coffin.  Not saying that was justified but thats the way it works in business when you are trying to protect your brand. You're right.  We should listen to the players opines and what they have to say and Ive done that. I still disagree with them but I support them.  Im not against our players and want them to succeed in football and in life but the idea that I don't agree with them and I think they are kind of being led astray by what the media and their emotions are telling them makes me a bad person is absurd.  I have just as much of a right to my opinion as they do and you guys are acting like I don't.  Get over your bullshit and start having a meaningful conversation.  Because by coming after me like you guys are doing, is only further solidifying my point.  

No, you haven't as they haven't actually spoke in a medium where you can hear their voices and understand their reasoning for taking this action. Guys signing their names on Instagram or Twitter is not the same as listening to them speak about this. You keep assuming something based on your own perception of BLM and the media. And then you think they're being manipulated. And I'm not saying you're not entitled to an opinion. But we don't have to sit here and listen to you espouse it without responding. If you feel this is coming after you then you're really playing the victim in all this which precisely goes back to the problem. You can't come into this debate with an open mind. You immediately throw up roadblock after roadblock. If you supported them, you would let them say their peace without reservations. You said no at the first step. So when you tell us to get over our bullshit, take a look internally and try to do the same. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by mdmost

[Sawbonz 27447]

I always thought it was kind of a dumb song /unpopular opinion

[Neonmoon 38127]

2 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Kaepernick was going to lose his spot anyway.  It's already been said by multiple sources inside the 49ers.  Him doing what he did was just the nail in the coffin.  Not saying that was justified but thats the way it works in business when you are trying to protect your brand. You're right.  We should listen to the players opinions and what they have to say and Ive done that. I still disagree with them but I support them.  Im not against our players and want them to succeed in football and in life but the idea that I don't agree with them and I think they are kind of being led astray by what the media and their emotions are telling them makes me a bad person is absurd.  I have just as much of a right to my opinion as they do and you guys are acting like I don't.  Get over your bullshit and start having a meaningful conversation.  Because by coming after me like you guys are doing, is only further solidifying my point.  

I’m not coming after you. I’m disagreeing with your opinion. No one has said you are a bad guy. The harshest I have been was when I said your position was morally bankrupt when you said our players were mentally weak if they are hurt from the song. It is the epitome of not listening to their point of view. They have said the song is hurtful and you say they are mentally weak. How does that support the players? 
 

You have stated you pay a lot of money to the school. Who cares? So do a lot of people. 
 

and when I say your opinion does not hold as much weight, it doesn’t. There is a reason why Dr Beeper is asking what Vince, Earl, Ricky have said on this issue and not you. 

[gmr548 16535]

21 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

My brain has looked at this and said "Who created this list of grievances?  This sounds like someone besides a college kid."

And that's not minimizing changes that need to happen in this country.  But if we rename every building, institution, entity, etc that wasn't "woke" 25 or 50 or 100 or 150 years ago we're going to change A LOT.   This country is not perfect by any means.  But are we going to change everything? 

This essentially boils down to "Solving the problem is hard. Are we sure we want to do that?"

[Apex73 313]

5 minutes ago, mdmost said:

No, you haven't as they haven't actually spoke in a medium where you can hear their voices and understand their reasoning for taking this action. Guys signing their names on Instagram or Twitter is not the same as listening to them speak about this. You keep assuming something based on your own perception of BLM and the media. And then you think they're being manipulated. yinAnd I'm not saying you're not entitled to an opinion. But we don't have to sit here and listen to you espouse it without responding. If you feel this is coming after you then you're really playing the victim in all this which precisely goes back to the problem. You can't come into this debate with an open mind. You immediately throw up roadblock after roadblock. If you supported them, you would let them say their peace without reservations. You said no at the first step. So when you tell us to get over our bullshit, take a look internally and try to do the same. 

I have let them say their peace and I disagree.  Apparently that's too hard for you to understand.  I don't have to agree to understand what they are talking about or where they are coming from.  Do I think they are influenced regardless of what they say?  Yes.  Because from ages 18-22, which is what most of these guys are, they don't have a fully developed brain and solidified thought patterns to not be completely influenced by the media they consume.  That go's for all of us to a certain degree.  But way more so for developing kids.  Do you agree with every 18-22 year olds ideas about how to make change?  You hear what you want to hear from me and take what I say out of context.  You are the one who is close minded in the since that you can't see how someone can have an opinion that disagrees with what the kids are saying and still support them.  Their is no room for nuance or thinking in your point of view.  It's agree with the mob or you're full of hate.  That requires next to no thinking to come up with that conclusion.  I'm not playing victim to anything.  I just said what happened.  I have an opinion that opposes the players point of view and you guys come after me for it.  That's fine I guess.  My opinion is not immune to scrutiny.  But the execution of the way you guys do it is childish.

[mdmost 42879]

24 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

My brain has looked at this and said "Who created this list of grievances?  This sounds like someone besides a college kid."

And that's not minimizing changes that need to happen in this country.  But if we rename every building, institution, entity, etc that wasn't "woke" 25 or 50 or 100 or 150 years ago we're going to change A LOT.   This country is not perfect by any means.  But are we going to change everything? 

I see it as more of empowering the players to help shape the University so that when they're hosting a recruit, they can walk by the former Littlefield Fountain and say "black players had a major problem with this fountain named after a Klansman so we petitioned the school to change the name, they listened to us, and worked with us to come up with a solution together. We wanted the first player that integrated the football team to have a section of the stadium in his honor and the University agreed to that. That's the university you're looking at and possibly committing your 4 years to. One that cares what you do on the field but also cares a lot about who you are, what you think and what you're concerned with off the field". 

[Texas73 420]

5 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

FWIW, maybe Texas lost some of the right to bitch about the song complaints when you left a building named after a guy so racist he would not teach black students unchanged until 2020 - when they complained?  Just maybe you forfeited some shit when that happened - like the right to push back as hard on other examples - like the song.   Had you been addressing the other clearly egregious issues earlier, you might have more moral authority to push back on The Eyes issue.  But you didn't.   Maybe this is -  I dunno - more like having to take personal responsibility for doing some undeniably bad shit in the past and failing to correct it till now - even if the consequence of that delay is way more uncomfortable than you'd like.  Or even more uncomfortable than it deserves.   Consequences are not always equal to the original injury.

I know, Gator, not my fight song, blah blah.  Just a thought I had after reading ten pages of this.

You think all Texas students or Texas Exes or Texas fans knew a building on campus, R L Moore, was named after a racist professor?  Th.ey didn't

[mdmost 42879]

Just now, Apex73 said:

I have let them say their peace and I disagree.  Apparently that's too hard for you to understand.  I don't have to agree to understand what they are talking about or where they are coming from.  Do I think they are influenced regardless of what they say?  Yes.  Because from ages 18-22, which is what most of these guys are, they don't have a fully developed brain and solidified thought patterns to not be completely influenced by the media they consume.  That go's for all of us to a certain degree.  But way more so for developing kids.  Do you agree with every 18-22 year olds ideas about how to make change?  You hear what you want to hear from me and take what I say out of context.  You are the one who is close minded in the since that you can't see how someone can have an opinion that disagrees with what the kids are saying and still support them.  Their is no room for nuance or thinking in your point of view.  It's agree with the mob or you're full of hate.  That requires next to no thinking to come up with that conclusion.  I'm not playing victim to anything.  I just said what happened.  I have an opinion that opposes the players point of view and you guys come after me for it.  That's fine I guess.  My opinion is not immune to scrutiny.  But the execution of the way you guys do it is childish.

Man, you really are projecting in a lot of this. There is plenty of room for nuance in my point of view. There's an awful lot of absolutism in your posting that you then want to ascribe to those of us who disagree with you. I mean it's okay to disagree. You seem very upset that we won't just go along with all the stuff that we find objectionable in what you're saying. Again, you seem to really, really enjoy playing the victim here. It'll be okay, trust me. Society will still endure. But the young men of this program are going to have their say whether you like it, understand it, or agree with it. They've earned that right. 

 

[Apex73 313]

15 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I’m not coming after you. I’m disagreeing with your opinion. No one has said you are a bad guy. The harshest I have been was when I said your position was morally bankrupt when you said our players were mentally weak if they are hurt from the song. It is the epitome of not listening to their point of view. They have said the song is hurtful and you say they are mentally weak. How does that support the players? 
 

You have stated you pay a lot of money to the school. Who cares? So do a lot of people. 
 

and when I say your opinion does not hold as much weight, it doesn’t. There is a reason why Dr Beeper is asking what Vince, Earl, Ricky have said on this issue and not you. 

They are all just humans and don't have the capacity to think logically anymore than any of us.  You do come after me.  You use emotion as a way to navigate your argument instead of actually having a logical adult discussion about the issue.  I will agree when I said everyone who supported this was just pussies looking for witch hunt was out of line. At the end of the day we are all on the same team.  We all bleed orange.  And I still love every one of y'all for that.  I love being apart of this university and I love the fact we can disagree and still have something in common. We want these kids to be successful on and off the field.  I just disagree about the methods and measures they are taking to make a statement that is obvious to the masses.  Hook em.

[Apex73 313]

1 minute ago, mdmost said:

Man, you really are projecting in a lot of this. There is plenty of room for nuance in my point of view. There's an awful lot of absolutism in your posting that you then want to ascribe to those of us who disagree with you. I mean it's okay to disagree. You seem very upset that we won't just go along with all the stuff that we find objectionable in what you're saying. Again, you seem to really, really enjoy playing the victim here. It'll be okay, trust me. Society will still endure. But the young men of this program are going to have their say whether you like it, understand it, or agree with it. They've earned that right. 

 

I feel the exact same way about you.  I never said they weren't going to have their say or have a problem with them having their say.  I'm saying I don't agree and I told you why.  It's not enough for you to get over that but I explained my valid concerns.  I know society will endure. We are all on the same team at the end of the day.  We all bleed orange. Hook Em.

[Texas Jeff 1939]

Not sure if it matters, but the Eyes debuted in 1903 and the Texas Cowboys apparently were founded in 1922.  They didn't exist at the time of the show.

[mdmost 42879]

1 minute ago, Texas Jeff said:

Not sure if it matters, but the Eyes debuted in 1903 and the Texas Cowboys apparently were founded in 1922.  They didn't exist at the time of the show.

That's not the issue people had/are having. The group that came up with the song and did the performance did it for a minstrel show in blackface. The tradition was kept up by the Texas Cowboys as time went on. According to Armybrat, it kept up until the mid-60s when he was in school and until people rightly protested the "traditional" blackface performances and it stopped. 

[What? 13]

41 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

You stopped the quote at the point where it supports your point of view.  If anyone actually reads the article all the stuff I said is valid.  You are just cherrypicking the parts you want to express.

Then please

 

42 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

You stopped the quote at the point where it supports your point of view.  If anyone actually reads the article all the stuff I said is valid.  You are just cherrypicking the parts you want to express.

Fill in the missing bits for all of us, you disingenuous twat

[US183 124]

As each day goes by and being a season ticket holder since 1984, I feel more comfortable with my decision to not renew my season tickets this year. 

[Apex73 313]

12 minutes ago, What? said:

Then please

 

Fill in the missing bits for all of us, you disingenuous twat

I did in my first post about it.  Fuck off.

[What? 13]

Just now, Apex73 said:

I did in my first post about it.  Fuck off.

Do it again if you are so sure of yourself, show us all.  Disingenuous twat.

[Alien Octopus 506]

57 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

My brain has looked at this and said "Who created this list of grievances?  This sounds like someone besides a college kid."

And that's not minimizing changes that need to happen in this country.  But if we rename every building, institution, entity, etc that wasn't "woke" 25 or 50 or 100 or 150 years ago we're going to change A LOT.   This country is not perfect by any means.  But are we going to change everything? 

It strangely matches the mission statement of BLM on their website. Especially the call to employ black artists.

[Apex73 313]

1 minute ago, What? said:

Do it again if you are so sure of yourself, show us all.  Disingenuous twat.

I have nothing to prove to you.  You can look back at my first post.  It says word for word what was said in the article.  You make me sick.  Your'e a jackass.

[The Dog 43858]

29 minutes ago, Texas73 said:

You think all Texas students or Texas Exes or Texas fans knew a building on campus, R L Moore, was named after a racist professor?  Th.ey didn't

I didn't. But now that I do, fuck that guy. Rename the building.

[What? 13]

3 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

I have nothing to prove to you.  You can look back at my first post.  It says word for word what was said in the article.  You make me sick.  Your'e a jackass.

Show the quote that i "cut off." Prove me wrong. Do it. You can't,  snowflake. Move the goalposts again, do it , you disingenuous entitled twat. You've never heard of something,  therefore it can't be valid. Textbook definition of entitled cunt.

Edited June 15, 2020 by What?

[CycleTex87 2957]

I’ve known the words to “The Eyes” as long as I can remember.  I sang it to each of my children as I carried them away from the delivery room.  I would hate to see it go away. 

[Texas Jeff 1939]

6 minutes ago, mdmost said:

That's not the issue people had/are having. The group that came up with the song and did the performance did it for a minstrel show in blackface. The tradition was kept up by the Texas Cowboys as time went on. According to Armybrat, it kept up until the mid-60s when he was in school and until people rightly protested the "traditional" blackface performances and it stopped. 

The song was written by one guy at the prompting of another guy and sang by four members of the Glee Club, plus the guy who wrote it on banjo.

The same guy who wrote the song also wrote a poem in March, two months before the show -- a precursor to what would be the song.  It talks about the "myriad eyes of Texas" and ends by saying that Texans' eyes are "Vandyke brown, vermillion, Sepia, Prussian blue, Ivory black and crimson lac, And eyes of every hue."  In the poem, he tried to cover everyone, even with a blanket line at the end in case he forgot someone's eye color.  Isn't that what we are trying to do?  Do we give Sinclair any points for putting diversity in his poem?

So, let me tweak the song using words from the poem, but the same melody:

The Eyes of Texas are upon you,
All the livelong day.
The eyes of Texas are upon you,
They’re with you all the way.
Sing me a song of Texas,
And Texas’ myriad eyes
Countless as the bright stars
That fill the midnight skies.

All of those words are from the original poem.  The sentiment of the song changes, for me, to mean that Texans are watching you but they are behind you.  If we need more tweaks to the wording let's talk about it, but you can build the lines above from the original poem.

The poem existed in March, before the show, and has probably never been performed, in blackface or not.  I can't change the fact that it comes from the source melody and probably neither could Sinclair, since he stole tunes for both of his song attempts.  A&M stole "Goodbye my Coney Island Baby" for their song, so it happens.  I also can't change the similarity to the Robert E Lee quote, but I can point out that Sinclair was making fun of the quote derived from the quote.

Can we take what we have and work together to make it inclusive?

 

[Born Burnt 6171]

Didn't know this about Moore either. Glad I lived in the Hyphen.

[Apex73 313]

49 minutes ago, What? said:

Show the quote that i "cut off." Prove me wrong. Do it. You can't,  snowflake. Move the goalposts again, do it , you disingenuous entitled twat. You've never heard of something,  therefore it can't be valid. Textbook definition of entitled cunt.

Micheondra Williams, a College of Liberal Arts sociology major, learned about the alma mater's history from a friend.

"I have to admit that I was a little bit shocked to read about the song's history," she said. "But there aren't any words that put me down or degrade me, or make me feel negatively about myself or anyone else."

That's the part you left out. Try to be more professional in the future sir.