Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[Cairn Horn88 8500]

5 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

how in the fuck do the journalists in the fucking town not understand it's not the fucking fight song

I can’t remember a poster using fuck 3 times in one sentence.  Well, fuck.

[Valmy77 13567]

16 minutes ago, bullet said:

What it means is people who believe it are prejudiced and lump all people in a group based on skin color, rather than as individuals.

How does it mean that? I think rather people who think it sucks that it is a thing believe the opposite of that.

Quote

There are lots of aholes around.  Everybody experiences their bullshit.  Some white people have more than average to face.  Some Black people have less than average to face.

Absolutely true. There is lots of bullshit and garbage that people have to face. Some people also have more bullshit because of the color of their skin and that sucks.

Quote

Privilege in this country is primarily based on wealth, not skin color.  And yes, Blacks on average have less wealth.  That doesn't mean all whites have privilege and all Blacks don't.

Privilege comes from many sources and certainly the one I would wish to have is vast wealth. But white privilege is just one thing, one little deal that you can have to make your life slightly easier. Obviously being a black millionaire is a better deal than being a white dirt farmer.

Personally I hate the term "privilege" to describe this kind of thing since I think it triggers this kind of reaction. How could impoverished meth addicts in Ohio really be privileged? But nobody consulted me when naming shit.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Valmy77

[Burt Macklin 19211]

8 minutes ago, bullet said:

That doesn't mean all whites have privilege and all Blacks don't.

This is not what white privilege means, nor what anyone has said it means. Maybe the misunderstanding of what it means to acknowledge the existence of white privilege is why you’re so adamantly against the concept. 
 

White privilege can be a legitimate thing to acknowledge and there still be plenty of instances where a black person has experienced more privilege and an easier life than a white person, but there are certain privileges most white people experience that minorities do not and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that and trying to move towards more equal ground for everyone. And no, that doesn’t have to be driven by white guilt. It can just be driven by a sense of morality. 

14 minutes ago, bullet said:

36 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

 

What it means is people who believe it are prejudiced and lump all people in a group based on skin color, rather than as individuals.

Or maybe it means that people who acknowledge the existence of white privilege understand that much of our society is prejudiced (at least subconsciously, some consciously too) and lump all people in a group based on skin color, and therefore white people experience privileges that minorities do not. 

[Apex73 313]

Not that it doesn't exist to a certain degree, but the problem with white privilege is it's often used as a way to shut down conversation meaning you can't have an opinion on this topic because you are white which is absurd.  I just don't think that term is an effective way of having a productive dialogue about sensitive issues like these.  It alienates people who might otherwise agree with everything you say because it comes from a place of racial divide.

[Valmy77 13567]

2 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

Not that it doesn't exist to a certain degree, but the problem with white privilege is it's often used as a way to shut down conversation meaning you can't have an opinion on this topic because you are white which is absurd.  I just don't think that term is an effective way of having a productive dialogue about sensitive issues like these.  It alienates people who might otherwise agree with everything you say because it comes from a place of racial divide.

Yeah. I hate that ad hominem stuff.

[What? 13]

3 hours ago, Apex73 said:

I'm aware of what it means.  Iv'e studied it extensively.  I wasn't trying to frame it as an ethnic issue.  I was trying to explain the danger of a collective mindset that subjugates guilt on a group of people.  It wasn't about comparing it to the song.  It was a response to saying America is full of white privilege.  That is targeting a specific group. If you can't understand that then you don't know what words mean.  You took everything I said completely out of context in what it was in response too.  It wasn't about the song shithead.  Btw I love how a song that everyone was fine singing and repping until recently becomes "my little song" once it becomes unpopular.  Apparently when it's wrong I have sole ownership.  That's rich.

Are you really this obtuse?  It was exactly in the context you presented. Comparing an individual commenting on white privilege to forced collectivization and mass famine is hyperbolic and hysterical.  It also causes you to appear to be detached from reality. Your historical comparisons are pedantic and counterfactual.

[LTtxfan 49909]

7 hours ago, Goodman said:

This was sent to me, seems timely and not political.   Quality training and open discussion vs hate. Acknowledging that there will be a percentage on every side that does not agree.

 

Great info from a former SEAL... training, training training...

Thanks for this video @Goodman

Edited June 17, 2020 by LTtxfan

[OU Sucks 9325]

33 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

I disagree because they don't seem to have a well laid out plan.  I still think this will die down in a few weeks and everyone is going to think job well done and it's over until the next time something bad happens.  Maybe they do, but I doubt it since they are kids.  If I know anything about today's 18-22 year olds, it's all about instant gratification.  And they will probably get that, and I'm afraid it will take something else horrible to exact actual change.  But hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.  

I mean, I agree that most players probably aren't going to do much more than what's on the list.  But other people can take over and make more meaningful changes and perhaps a few players will be more active later in life.  This is going to take decades to fix, if it's ever fixed at all.  But right now, if we can attempt to make black people feel welcome and at home at the University of Texas, that's a start.  Just imagine being black and having to stand there and sing a song that has questionable roots regarding your race.  I'm not black, but I know I wouldn't feel too great in that scenario.  This will all just get the ball rolling in the right direction.

Edited June 17, 2020 by OU Sucks

[What? 13]

3 hours ago, Apex73 said:

My post wasn't designed to take apart all of those things but I can go into greater detail about all of that and I will shortly.  It was designed to show you the madness of collective thinking attributing guilt to a whole group of people.

But none of that is actually happening here, except perhaps in your hysterical worldview.

[Apex73 313]

2 minutes ago, OU Sucks said:

I mean, I agree that most players probably aren't going to do much more than what's on the list.  But other people can take over and make more meaningful changes and perhaps a few players will be more active later in life.  This is going to take decades to fix, if it's ever fixed at all.  But right now, if we can attempt to make black people feel welcome and at home at the University of Texas, that's a start.  Just imagine being black and having to stand there and sing a song that has questionable roots regarding your race.  I'm not black, but I know I wouldn't feel too great in that scenario.  This will all just get the ball rolling in the right direction.

I think that's a real trivial thing to be upset about personally but like I said, not everyone has tough skin and thinks about things like that the way I do.  I think we have and continue to make this a place where people feel welcome based on the countless testimonies of friends, classmates, former players, and everyone involved.  The overall experience has been remarkably positive.  But I agree that it gets the ball rolling in the right direction.

[A-Tex Devil 2492]

41 minutes ago, bullet said:

Privilege in this country is primarily based on wealth, not skin color.  And yes, Blacks on average have less wealth.  That doesn't mean all whites have privilege and all Blacks don't.

You are missing the forest.  Look at the Jay Pharoah video.  Talk to an African American living in a wealthy white neighborhood.  I’ve had several eye opening conversations in the last month, including one law partner at a big law firm here in Texas that has gotten pulled over or stopped while jogging or walking multiple times in his own neighborhood.  Privilege isn’t just about getting into college, getting jobs, etc.  Its about not getting fucked with because you happen to look like you belong in a certain neighborhood. 

[Apex73 313]

1 minute ago, What? said:

But none of that is actually happening here, except perhaps in your hysterical worldview.

It was but that's neither here nor there at this point.  Are you going to continue to come after me or be apart of having a productive conversation?  Because it sounds like its more important for you to be right at this moment than have anything of substance to add.

[Texas73 422]

7 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

the origins of the song are steeped in racism

Really? You and I see steeped in racism differently. I'm all for BLM, I marched over 3 hours a couple of Sunday's ago and I'm old. I remember when R L Moore Hall was built and named the PMA (Physics, Math, Astronomy) building and yes as a math major I knew R L Moore was a racist and when they named the PMA after him it was controversial and written up in the Daily Texan. 

I'm in favor of all of the demands except for ending The Eyes of Texas. 

[What? 13]

1 minute ago, Apex73 said:

It was but that's neither here nor there at this point.  Are you going to continue to come after me or be apart of having a productive conversation?  Because it sounds like its more important for you to be right at this moment than have anything of substance to add.

Pray tell, what have you added to the conversation?  Remembering, of course, that our exchange began over you denying that the Eyes of Texas was not an issue until you heard about it, regardless of past students' opinions which were documented over a decade ago, in addition to the opinion of former and current players. I know you have moved your goal posts so many times that your original point is indecipherable, but do not blame me for your blundering and lack of coherent viewpoint.

[Apex73 313]

2 minutes ago, What? said:

Pray tell, what have you added to the conversation?  Remembering, of course, that our exchange began over you denying that the Eyes of Texas was not an issue until you heard about it, regardless of past students' opinions which were documented over a decade ago, in addition to the opinion of former and current players. I know you have moved your goal posts so many times that your original point is indecipherable, but do not blame me for your blundering and lack of coherent viewpoint.

I didn't blame you for anything.  And yes even though Ive changed my opinion that doesn't mean I didn't have anything of substance to add before I did.  I'm saying if you're going to continue to come after me over a trivial issue like the song then you have no interest in having dialogue.  You just want to smash people with different opinions than you.  Which on a message board I guess is fine but I'm not going to engage in conversation with you anymore if you have nothing of substance to add.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

Is it too late add a demand-request to rename the stadium? Take DKR’s name off and tear down his statue. He coached all-white teams for most of his career, and we all know that he must’ve been forced - kicking and screaming - to integrate the team.

[What? 13]

6 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

I didn't blame you for anything.  And yes even though Ive changed my opinion that doesn't mean I didn't have anything of substance to add before I did.  I'm saying if you're going to continue to come after me over a trivial issue like the song then you have no interest in having dialogue.  You just want to smash people with different opinions than you.  Which on a message board I guess is fine but I'm not going to engage in conversation with you anymore if you have nothing of substance to add.

Well, that's a bit bit different then.  Yesterday, the song was an issue to become foamy mouthed and spittle flecked over on your part.  You were going to withdraw your vast wealth from the school. Now, it's a trivial issue.  I'm glad you were able to change your perspective.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by What?
commas

[Apex73 313]

1 minute ago, What? said:

Well, that's a bit bit different then.  Yesterday the song was an issue to become foamy mouthed and spittle flecked over on your part.  You were withdrawing your vast wealth from the school. Now it's a trivial issue.  I'm glad you were able to change your perspective.

Dude I never said I was withdrawing anything from the school.  I said I donate a lot of money every year so I felt my concerns were valid.  I never said I was going to stop giving money to the school.  And I don't have vast wealth.  You are assuming quite a lot.  

[Valmy77 13567]

Forgive my ignorance but I am having a hard time figuring out what exactly is so objectionable about Jim Hogg. I mean I know he was governor during a pretty racist period but I thought he was one of those "New South" type guys so not really a redemptionist reactionary.

But considering when he was governor he probably did do something to earn the ire his statue is receiving I was just curious what it was.

[Saint Austin 776]

20 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

Is it too late add a demand-request to rename the stadium? Take DKR’s name off and tear down his statue. He coached all-white teams for most of his career, and we all know that he must’ve been forced - kicking and screaming - to integrate the team.

I wouldn’t sweat it. Different players will make that request in a couple years. 

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

15 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

But considering when he was governor he probably did do something to earn the ire his statue is receiving I was just curious what it was.

Ask a 19 or 20 year old expert. 

[runthebone 8322]

1 hour ago, bullet said:

What it means is people who believe it are prejudiced and lump all people in a group based on skin color, rather than as individuals.

...

Privilege in this country is primarily based on wealth, not skin color.  And yes, Blacks on average have less wealth.  That doesn't mean all whites have privilege and all Blacks don't.

You completely don't get it.  That is your opinion, and you are stating it as fact.

[ImissWallyPryor 9046]

Just now, runthebone said:

You completely don't get it.  That is your opinion, and you are stating it as fact.

I request that you change your username. It offends me that it references an offense invented by coaches of an all-white team. If my username offends anyone for similar associations, I say....

[Js1 86940]

36 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

Is it too late add a demand-request to rename the stadium? Take DKR’s name off and tear down his statue. He coached all-white teams for most of his career, and we all know that he must’ve been forced - kicking and screaming - to integrate the team.

[notre dame joe 202]

9 hours ago, David Dennison said:

It's not up to the journalist. Just like they don't write headlines.

Thanks Poindexter.  But removing the comments is like removing your UT song.  Just another attack on freedom from people who don't want it to exist. 

9 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Let's be clear here. You appear to be saying that over the last 100+ years the idea that being white has been advantageous in the United States of America is just a feeling with no supporting evidence. Is that your assertion?

But even more relevantly, that doesn't even matter. You still have yet to offer an argument supporting your assertion that for white people to state that being white has been advantageous it must be from a feeling of guilt. That is logically incorrect. Let's try an analogy.

Do you believe that being born in the USA offers an advantage over being born in many of the other countries in the world? Do you feel guilty about being born in the USA? Or is it simply obvious and observable that being born in the USA is better than being born in many other places and no feeling of guilt is required for you to make that observation?

 

Since you speak for DD, does he know that no black person leaves the USA to emigrate to a black majority country.  Many want go the opposite way.  Has he ever paused to contemplate that?

[Bruh Man 3160]

12 hours ago, Skipper said:

You can also go read the takes from the idiots on Orangebloods if you want to shake your head.   As much as we bitch about some of our resident dumbasses over here, the average intelligence on this board is night and day compared to that cesspool.

Orangebloods has looked like Brietbart for about a month. Quandre was trying to educate a few of them the other day but it was like talking to a brick wall. OB is full of aggrieved middle aged white guys. 

[Valmy77 13567]

44 minutes ago, notre dame joe said:

Thanks Poindexter.  But removing the comments is like removing your UT song.  Just another attack on freedom from people who don't want it to exist. 

What? We are compelled to have a certain school song or we hate freedom? What? Why do we have to do something for freedom? Doesn't that seem contradictory?

Likewise I don't see why people should be forced to have comments on their own webpage for freedom.

You seem big on ordering everybody around for somebody who loves freedom.

I guess I figured people have a choice as to what kinds of things they wanted to do. But I guess freedom dictates otherwise?

Edited June 17, 2020 by Valmy77

[zork 629]

Take half of the UT endowment and split it up this way:

Every black member of the 2005-2006 national championship football team gets 1 million dollars.  Every black member of any national championship team since 2000 gets 250k dollars.

Half of that remaining dollars gets put into a fund to continue the payouts, inflation adjusted, in perpetuity, to increase incentives for excellence in UT sports.

Whatever is left, of the original half allocated, gets used to pay for the full ride(a set stipend) for any black student currently or in the future that maintains a 3.0 GPA or higher. 

Accept all of the other demands as written.  Any new rights from the changes made should be split into half going to the UT general fund and the other half going to the above mentioned full ride fund.

We as a University community need to set the example.

 

[Royal With Cheese 3]

2 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

Orangebloods has looked like Brietbart for about a month. Quandre was trying to educate a few of them the other day but it was like talking to a brick wall. OB is full of aggrieved middle aged white guys. 

Remember what Tom Herman is promoting when ya'll leave the Cotton Bowl in October.

[TreatyOak 17197]

7 hours ago, Bruh Man said:

OB is full of aggrieved middle aged white guys. 

[Valmy77 13567]

5 hours ago, Royal With Cheese said:

Remember what Tom Herman is promoting when ya'll leave the Cotton Bowl in October.

The way this year is going I sure hope we even get to be in the Cotton Bowl in October.

[TornACL 7791]

I think if you consider white privilege to mean "benefit of the doubt" its meaning becomes a whole lot more clear. 

[Wally Pryor 5388]

47 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

The way this year is going I sure hope we even get to be in the Cotton Bowl in October.

You're assuming it will still be the "Cotton" Bowl in October? 

I love optimism.  Much needed. 

 

[Bevo14 8468]

11 hours ago, Texas73 said:

Really? You and I see steeped in racism differently. I'm all for BLM, I marched over 3 hours a couple of Sunday's ago and I'm old. I remember when R L Moore Hall was built and named the PMA (Physics, Math, Astronomy) building and yes as a math major I knew R L Moore was a racist and when they named the PMA after him it was controversial and written up in the Daily Texan. 

I'm in favor of all of the demands except for ending The Eyes of Texas. 

I'm up for them tearing down that ugly ass building. Figured they would've gotten around to it by now. It was the worst part about being a math major.

[Valmy77 13567]

55 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

You're assuming it will still be the "Cotton" Bowl in October? 

I love optimism.  Much needed. 

 

I am here to pump the sunshine.

[Valmy77 13567]

Just now, Bevo14 said:

I'm up for them tearing down that ugly ass building. Figured they would've gotten around to it by now. It was the worst part about being a math major.

I don't think I ever talked to anybody at my time at Texas that liked RLM. 

[zork 629]

3 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Half the endowment?  Lulz. 

Listening to Brian Jones right now on The Ticket. Love this guy and totally agree with his take on removal of statues and names on buildings, but leaving The Eyes alone, turning it into something good. 

If not half, estimated at 30 billion in total as of 5-2019, a round 5 billion to start the funds and payouts should suffice.  Put Blacks in charge of the funds as well.  What starts here changes the world.  Nobody could question UoTexas desire to make things right.  Literally putting their money where their intentions are while rewarding championship behavior and results.  If nothing else, the grandest of grand gestures with real financial backing that would be lasting.  

[US183 163]

I’m happier today that I didn’t renew my season tickets than I was yesterday or the days before. Life is good. 

[Tex Pete 21394]

46 minutes ago, Bevo14 said:

I'm up for them tearing down that ugly ass building. Figured they would've gotten around to it by now. It was the worst part about being a math major.

I thought the worst part was all the math.

And I also hated the one class I had in there, though I actually enjoyed Mrs. Beck as a teacher. She reminded me of Mrs. Doubtfire.

[HeyMcFly 144]

14 minutes ago, US183 said:

I’m happier today that I didn’t renew my season tickets than I was yesterday or the days before. Life is good. 

Why? what specific reason makes you happier that you didnt renew?

Edited June 17, 2020 by HeyMcFly

[Valmy77 13567]

24 minutes ago, US183 said:

Life is good. 

Glad your life is going so well.

[hayden_horn 11401]

13 hours ago, Texas73 said:

Really? You and I see steeped in racism differently. I'm all for BLM, I marched over 3 hours a couple of Sunday's ago and I'm old. I remember when R L Moore Hall was built and named the PMA (Physics, Math, Astronomy) building and yes as a math major I knew R L Moore was a racist and when they named the PMA after him it was controversial and written up in the Daily Texan. 

I'm in favor of all of the demands except for ending The Eyes of Texas. 

you'll stand there proudly in the stands singing a song that our football players find offensive?

and the song being steeped in racism has been outlined, and it's sort of hard to avoid. 

[MirrOlure 15185]

you'll stand there proudly in the stands singing a song that our football players find offensive?
and the song being steeped in racism has been outlined, and it's sort of hard to avoid. 

The only thing “steeped” is the anecdotal and indirect association with antiquated activities that are unacceptable in today’s standards.

Unlike your pinheaded snowflake self, I’ve got confidence that the players will be open to and accept that the Alma Mater has greatly evolved into an all inclusive anthem despite questions about the origin.

[Wally Pryor 5388]

26 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Yes. Because it’s a tradition that despite its origins (which aren’t steeped in racism, btw), that was about bringing Longhorn fans together and nothing more, from the days of Julius Whittier onward. Listen to Brian Jones’ take this morning. 

Jones has never lacked an opinion and hesitated to call out bullshit, including that relating to his own school.  I'm especially interested what he has to say on the matter. 

A link would help. 

[Bevo14 8468]

1 hour ago, Tex Pete said:

I thought the worst part was all the math.

And I also hated the one class I had in there, though I actually enjoyed Mrs. Beck as a teacher. She reminded me of Mrs. Doubtfire.

Close second. 

[Valmy77 13567]

30 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

The only thing “steeped” is the anecdotal and indirect association with antiquated activities that are unacceptable in today’s standards.

Unlike your pinheaded snowflake self, I’ve got confidence that the players will be open to and accept that the Alma Mater has greatly evolved into an all inclusive anthem despite questions about the origin.

Yeah I hope the players and the administration and alumni can come together and work this out. And I think that is what the players were mainly trying to do anyway.

However I am not all that interested in some players protesting the alma mater by just leaving the field and not singing it. That could get unpleasant. Hopefully that will not be the case if we keep it.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Valmy77

[MrBig 5602]

58 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

The only thing “steeped” is the anecdotal and indirect association with antiquated activities that are unacceptable in today’s standards.

How is The Eyes’ association with racism “anecdotal and indirect” when there is proof the song was first performed in blackface, and continued to be performed in blackface until around 1965?

The fact that the students adopted it as the “school song” does not diminish the song’s blackface aspect of its history.

The Eyes brings people together. I love singing it at graduations and football games. Our school history shows The Eyes first brought students together at a blackface show.

That’s NOT okay with me, and I don’t want to be associated with something initially performed in blackface. 

The history of the song makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable. It’s not just the black athletes who feel this way. 

[Texas73 422]

1 hour ago, hayden_horn said:

you'll stand there proudly in the stands singing a song that our football players find offensive?

and the song being steeped in racism has been outlined, and it's sort of hard to avoid. 

The song is not steeped in racism. Statues of Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee and the confederate flag flying are steeped in racism. How President Prather ended his speeches admonishing staff and students to remember to do their best and the right thing because the eyes of Texas are upon you is not racist. 

I've marched in BLM protests several times, my significant other is black and we both stand and sing The Eyes before and after the games. 

[formermav43 4607]

14 minutes ago, MrBig said:

How is The Eyes’ association with racism “anecdotal and indirect” when there is proof the song was first performed in blackface, and continued to be performed in blackface until around 1965?

The fact that the students adopted it as the “school song” does not diminish the song’s blackface aspect of its history.

The Eyes brings people together. I love singing it at graduations and football games. Our school history shows The Eyes first brought students together at a blackface show.

That’s NOT okay with me, and I don’t want to be associated with something initially performed in blackface. 

The history of the song makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable. It’s not just the black athletes who feel this way. 

I’ve actually not see evidence the song was first performed in blackface. I could have missed it. But I’ve only seen an assertion made by a professor. It’s indisputable that it debuted at a minstrel show, but none of the primary sources I’ve seen indicate it was in blackface, and not all performances at minstrel shows were in blackface.

To be clear, I’m not saying that minstrel shows are ok, that they’re acceptable as long as you don’t use blackface, or that it definitively was not performed in blackface. But I do think accuracy is important, particularly when we know for a fact that there is a lot of misinformation on this topic.

Edited June 17, 2020 by formermav43

[zork 629]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

$5 Billion for what, exactly?

I listed a few things, in post #2237 of this thread, that would help Black people directly affiliated with the University of Texas now and going forward.  It won't be up to me as just one member of the alumni to implement them.  We should set  the standard.

Thee large amount I suggest is due to the need to have income from it to continue the proposed program.  Setting the highest standard of help to foster trust within and beyond the black community at UT and what happens if you decide to become a part of UT as a black individual.

The asks from the black community at Texas are reasonable and the endowment of the help for that community at Texas would solidify the response for now and going forward.