Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[Texas73 420]

13 minutes ago, Pasken said:

How is it not? The song parody was requested by program director of the Varsity Minstrel Show and it was debuted at a minstrel show.

FYI, it has been sung at events that have not been minstrel shows in the last 117 years; hence, it is not a specifically minstrel song. 

You're welcome.

[Nicole44 22028]

22 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Sounds like the Consensus is most of us are happy to jettison the Eyes if it ultimately helps us get back to winning games. 

Without a poll though. But agreed. The “Eyes of Texas” Was made great imo because of the band build up to the singing. For me at least. A lot of us have a huge reaction to the song because of memories.  Wins and losses shared with our families.

And that should be acknowledged Also.

because as far as I know no one sang that song before or after games as some kind of way of demeaning black individuals. If I knew in any way how the athletes felt about the song overall, I Would never have sung it at all. I hated the rhyme. And also I guess Railroads would surely refer to the Asian Americans who built them. 

[futureman 22425]

40 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Sounds like the Consensus is most of us are happy to jettison the Eyes if it ultimately helps us get back to winning games. 

how about we tell the players we’ll get rid of it after they win the championship, and not before.  give them a list of our own demands.  turn the tables on them!

[SHOOTER12 8791]

48 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

For fuck’s sake we should all kill ourselves now for living in a state that was a Confederate state and loving a university with some history of racism. 

I already said I have no problem with The Eyes; I just don’t really like the song. I love Texas Fight. What in the fuck gives you the inkling that I care about your logic?  

That's not logic, that's pubic hair harvesting.

[JohnnyRage 1617]

12 minutes ago, futureman said:

how about we tell the players we’ll get rid of it after they win the championship, and not before.  give them a list of our own demands.  turn the tables on them!

Wrap up the negotiations folks, we're done here.

[Saint Austin 745]

2 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Good, just making sure I wasn't the only one lol.

If we do give up The Eyes, hopefully if it will swing recruiting momentum back in our favor and drive top recruits here over Alabama and Clemson. 

 

And I thought the realignment thread was full of absurd posts. 

[W0244 Jester 104]

9 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

With all due respect, this is utterly fucking retarded. 

I just need to make sure this doesn’t get missed by someone new to the thread.  
 

Zork must be a dropout of the business school.  At Baylor.  

[Irieguy 1059]

47 minutes ago, Texas73 said:

FYI, it has been sung at events that have not been minstrel shows in the last 117 years; hence, it is not a specifically minstrel song. 

You're welcome.

I saw Nirvana perform in Austin, therefore they were not a specifically Seattle grunge band. 

Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

[Texas73 420]

2 minutes ago, Irieguy said:

I saw Nirvana perform in Austin, therefore they were not a specifically Seattle grunge band. 

Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

We sing The Eyes in the way people used to sing songs at minstrel shows? I've been doing it wrong for 49 years.

[Irieguy 1059]

1 minute ago, Texas73 said:

We sing The Eyes in the way people used to sing songs at minstrel shows? I've been doing it wrong for 49 years.

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

[Veerbone 116]

19 minutes ago, Irieguy said:

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

Roger Clemens was born & raised in Dayton, Ohio until he was 15.

Touche & toodaloo mother fucka!

[Texas73 420]

35 minutes ago, Irieguy said:

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

Virtually no one living today knew that the song was sung at a minstrel show in 1903 until a couple of days ago. That negates your stance that The Eyes of Texas is specifically a minstrel show. 

[JohnnyRage 1617]

Did someone already post the Texas Monthly article? It helped me out.

[Lerka Lerka 1086]

1 hour ago, Irieguy said:

I saw Nirvana perform in Austin

Liberty Lunch?

[ousux 5588]

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

Not if he moved to Haiti before his first radio hit and spent most of his performing life based out of Haiti.

The Jersey origin thing would simply be a minor detail on his wiki page.

[Pasken 1309]

8 hours ago, Texas73 said:

FYI, it has been sung at events that have not been minstrel shows in the last 117 years; hence, it is not a specifically minstrel song. 

You're welcome.

That’s just confirmation that we have racism embedded in our culture. 

[UncleBuck 6448]

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

A lot of our successful space exploration missions and technology has its roots in Nazi science, that doesn’t mean we’ve put concentration camps on the moons (we have two now!).

We’re a relatively young country, and most of our history has featured slavery and/or a lot of shitty racist laws against mostly black people, along with racist practices from business to entertainment, so chances are there are going to be a shit ton of things that have origins in slavery and racism.

But for me, if it bothers black people, any race, then we should listen to them, 100%. But some of us are getting “listening” confused with all out compliance. We can still have discussions, keep an open mind, and try to learn from one another before just throwing up our hands and saying “take everything!”

This goes back to the very founders of this country. Just because they were racist slave owners, doesn’t mean their ideas outside of that must solely belong to Jersey!!!!

[Slacks 6792]

We in here talking about music. I mean, listen, we're talking about music, not a person, not a person, not a person, we talking about music. Not a person. Not, not … Not the people...

Not the people, but we're talking about music , man. I mean how silly is that? … And we talking about music. 

Man look, I hear you... it's funny to me too, I mean it's strange... it's strange to me too, but we're talking about music man, we're not even talking about the people... the actual people, when it matters... We're talking about music...

[fuggled 576]

17 hours ago, MrBig said:

My point is that the song was originally written FOR the purpose of being performed at a minstrel blackface act.

You've presented this as fact several times over the past week, but you don't actually know this.  You should stop presenting it as fact.

According to at least one narrative, Johnson (the minstrel director) had been trying to have a school song created for more than a year.  In addition to the minstrel shows, Johnson organized "Promenade Concerts" where the band would wander campus, playing songs from other colleges but not having anything to perform specific to Texas.  He contacted alumni to get involved but didn't make progress.  He then reached out to John Sinclair for help with the song.  He composed his first attempt in 1902, but didn't love it.  A year later he wrote The Eyes.  

Quote

He first contacted alumni known to have literary talent, and hoped to recruit a volunteer to write a UT song, but received only polite refusals. Not one to give up easily, Johnson turned to his fellow students, specifically to fellow band member John Lang Sinclair. Sinclair was an editor of the Cactus yearbook, a regular contributor to the University of Texas Literary Magazine, and was widely known as the campus poet. Sinclair resisted at first, but Johnson continued to pester.

https://jimnicar.com/ut-traditions/the-eyes-of-texas/

So, it's equally likely that the song was originally written FOR the purpose of giving the University a song it could call its own with a distinct Texas identity.  This could be true even though the song was regrettably premiered at a minstrel show.  Do I know this with 100% certainty?  No, of course not.  I can't interpret the intentions of college kids from over 100 years ago.  And neither can you.  That's why you should be very careful about attributing purpose and intent to individuals who aren't here to speak for themselves.

Additionally, there's another tradition dating back to these minstrel shows that I haven't seen discussed.  The Varsity Band performed a lot of songs at these shows.  The Varsity Band would go on to become what is today known as Longhorn Band.  Would you argue Longhorn Band is a racist organization that doesn't have a place at the University today?  Should it be defunded and dissolved?  I would be very surprised if you said "yes."  So, why is it different? 

At least in my mind, we can't condemn today's Longhorn Band for the inappropriate behavior of these early members.  Because when there's an illness, you treat the cause, you don't execute the patient.  The cancer was racist individuals, blackface and minstrel shows.  Not The Eyes itself.  

John Fleming, the first black drum major of Longhorn Band, said it even best:

Quote

Is it really the song they're boycotting, or are they boycotting the people and what they represented when it was performed at a minstrel show?

https://abcnews.go.com/OnCampus/story?id=7160813&page=1

[HeyMcFly 144]

10 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

I wasn’t aware The swastika was specifically a fascism thing. Oh, it’s not, and you’re just posting idiots from a few generations ago?  Yeah, thanks fuckface. 

See how easy that is?

[Wally Pryor 5245]

19 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

It was a radio interview this morning. They have an app that’ll let you rewind one hour, but it was at 7:15 AM so way past 1 hour. They do however have podcast highlights from their broadcast day, generally made available about 10 PM each night. I am sure the Jones interview will be there, and I’ll post when I find out. Worth a listen. 

What station?  An Austin one?  The Ticket? 

[Valmy77 13125]

27 minutes ago, fuggled said:

John Fleming, the first black drum major of Longhorn Band, said it even best:

Is he still the only one? That article was from 2009.

[Valmy77 13125]

That article clearly indicates it was written to be the Alma Mater and they just decided the Minstril Show was a good place to debut it, not that it was specifically written to be a racist mockery of anybody. If that makes a difference, I don't know.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Valmy77

[Tex Pete 20196]

25 minutes ago, HeyMcFly said:

See how easy that is?

That’s sort of completely the opposite. 

[TreatyOak 16169]

12 hours ago, Nicole44 said:

Oh also, fuck you Chip Brown you pompous, short, fugly, useless pile of canon fodder, smug, dipshit, fucktard, fuckface, asshat, socially awkward weirdo! 

Please don't do this. Please don't...now I must post. .....triggered. So triggered. 

 

[fuggled 576]

21 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Is he still the only one? That article was from 2009.

I'm not sure actually.  Here's the list of drum majors, I just haven't looked them all up.

https://longhornband.org/drum-majors/

[Fondren & Main 6675]

This will all come down to money.  I wonder how it will work out.

[UncleBuck 6448]

1 hour ago, Pasken said:

That’s just confirmation that we have racism embedded in our culture. 

Well no shit we do. Who would argue against that? Our white history here on this land is only 400 or so years old (vikings pending), and over half of that featured Slavery, and we've had racist laws against blacks in this country within the past one hundred years. I'm not sure what people expect. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by UncleBuck

[Veerbone 116]

1 hour ago, Fondren & Main said:

This will all come down to money.  I wonder how it will work out.

Yup.

Best guess, all requests will be honored In large part with the exception of The Eyes & the funding of BLM.  
 

That will satisfy most but not all, in this scenario we move forward as a better place with the ones who really have the University in their hearts.  

[David Dennison 18694]

11 minutes ago, Veerbone said:

Yup.

Best guess, all requests will be honored In large part with the exception of The Eyes & the funding of BLM.  
 

That will satisfy most but not all, in this scenario we move forward as a better place with the ones who really have the University in their hearts.  

If that's the case, expect a divided team at the end of every football game. Staying and singing will be left up to the players, and most of them are going to leave the field while others sing what they perceive to be a racist song with a largely white crowd. So it's gonna be great.

[Neonmoon 38127]

It's scary how similar the arguments are for Aggy fans to keep the Confederate Soldier Statue and Texas fans to keep a minstrel song. 

But some reason Texas fans thinks this is totally different

 

[Valmy77 13125]

25 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If that's the case, expect a divided team at the end of every football game. Staying and singing will be left up to the players, and most of them are going to leave the field while others sing what they perceive to be a racist song with a largely white crowd. So it's gonna be great.

Yeah we should clearly not sing the song if this is a likely outcome. That would be a disaster.

[Valmy77 13125]

19 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

It's scary how similar the arguments are for Aggy fans to keep the Confederate Soldier Statue and Texas fans to keep a minstrel song. 

But some reason Texas fans thinks this is totally different

 

I am all for getting rid of the song but this is ridiculous. There is a substantial difference between a statue of a mass murdering individual and something that is not a statue of a mass murdering individual.

The song was, at least according to the article posted here, not written to be a minstrel song. It has no lyrics or anything that indicates that origin. It was introduced that way since that form of entertainment was what was popular in our wonderful University in 1903. Now maybe there is a discussion that all songs ever sung or associated with minstril shows should not be sung or that all people who attended one or performed in one should not be honored or that all venues that hosted one should no longer be used or whatever. I mean that is certainly a conversation that could be had and I would be willing to have it. Maybe some or all of those things should happen. But that strikes me as a different conversation than whether or not we should honor a mass murderer and war criminal, even if he was once Governor.

But convince me they are the same thing, or at least not substantially different. I am open to any discussion.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Valmy77

[HRSchenker 2259]

2 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

What station?  An Austin one?  The Ticket? 

Is he confusing the real Jerry Jones with the fake Jerry Jones that Gordon Keith does?!

[David Dennison 18694]

Meanwhile, in the SEC . . . 

 

[Neonmoon 38127]

10 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

I am all for getting rid of the song but this is ridiculous. There is a substantial difference between a statue of a mass murdering individual and something that is not a statue of a mass murdering individual.

The song was, at least according to the article posted here, not written to be a minstrel song. It has no lyrics or anything that indicates that origin. It was introduced that way since that form of entertainment was what was popular in our wonderful University in 1903. Now maybe there is a discussion that all songs ever sung or associated with minstril shows should not be sung or that all people who attended one or performed in one should not be honored or that all venues that hosted one should no longer be used or whatever. I mean that is certainly a conversation that could be had and I would be willing to have it. Maybe some or all of those things should happen. But that strikes me as a different conversation than whether or not we should honor a mass murderer and war criminal, even if he was once Governor.

But convince me they are the same thing, or at least not substantially different. I am open to any discussion.

 

From my previous post. Yes it was. Links and everything. You don't want to believe it, I get it. It was a long time ago. Things are different now. But I think we really need to understand where this song came from and understand what that means to people who are not white. 

But you are correct, I am arguing that all songs written for minstrel shows should never be performed or sung. 

"I've been working on the railroad" was a minstrel song created for and performed at a minstrel show. The whole point of dressing up in blackface was to mimic/mock black people. 

Links and information

https://www.americanheritage.com/blackface-sad-history-minstrel-shows

  Quote

the long tradition of minstrel shows in which whites covered their faces with burnt cork or grease paint in order to profit from denigrating African-Americans. 

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/ut-austin-eyes-of-texas-song-racist/

  Quote

These minstrel shows, which went on until the sixties, were fund-raisers organized by students and featured white performers singing and dancing in blackface. 

https://gen.medium.com/dinah-put-down-your-horn-154b8d8db12a

  Quote

Blackface minstrelsy was the most popular form of musical entertainment in America from the 1840s to the early 20th century. The theatrical and musical act consisted of White performers coloring their skin with burned cork and ridiculing African Americans in blatantly racist terms.

  Quote

I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” is based on the minstrel tune “Levee Song,” first published by Princeton University students in 1894. Caricaturing the African American laborers who built the levee and railroad systems in the 19th and early 20th centuries, “Levee Song” was a hit on college campuses and by 1920 became known by the line from its popular chorus, “I Been Wukkin’ on de Railroad.”

The song’s publication in caricatured Black dialect continued into the 1940s, with lyrics that reflected the physically abusive and highly exploitative conditions for laborers in railroad and levee camps. The camp workday began early (“rise up, so uhly in de mawn’”), the hours were long (“I been wukkin’ on de railroad all de live long day”), and White foremen enforced abusive conditions through disciplinary violence (“doan’ yuh hyah de capn’ shoutin’”), which occasionally resulted in death.

Dinah, the railroad camp cook whose meal is so eagerly awaited by the laborers (“Dinah, blow yo’ hawn!”) is a character from another minstrel song, “Old Joe,” or “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah.” Dinah was a 19th-century generic name for an African American woman, recalling Aunt Dinah, the untidy slave cook of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin (1852).

Lyrics to “Dere’s Some One in De House wid Dinah.” Source: ‘Gordon’s Universal Melodist,’ London: G.H. Davidson (1953)

In “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah,” a drunken plantation laborer, Old Joe, flies into a rage when he realizes that someone, “playin’ on de ole banjo,” is in the house with his mistress, Dinah. Like many minstrel songs, “Dinah” employs the classic minstrel trope of the African American playing the banjo.

By 1915, “Levee Song” started being published in children’s song collections. In M. Teresa Armitage’s children’s song anthology, Junior Laurel Songs, “Levee Song” was published in caricatured Black dialect but was euphemistically described as an “old popular song.”

By the mid-20th century, publishing minstrel songs in caricatured Black dialect became unacceptable, and the lyrics to minstrel songs started appearing in standard English spelling. Beatrice Landeck, in her 1950 anthology, Songs to Grow On, published “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” in standard English and called it “one of the classic American community songs” that mysteriously “sprung from nowhere.” The songbook’s accompanying illustration, however, betrayed the editors’ knowledge of the song’s true roots.

The folk revivalist Pete Seeger similarly downplayed the historical roots of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad.” The liner notes to Seeger’s first recording of the song in 1963 innocuously describe “Railroad” as an “old 19th-century ditty” that “just keeps changing and rolling along.”

The mythologizing of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” as a tune celebrating American values has continued into recent decades. When Smithsonian Folkways reissued Seeger’s recording in 1990, the liner notes touted the “democratic passion” of folk revivalists to include the “music of working-class Americans” as part of the “national cultural conversation.” The Black Americans represented in “Railroad,” however, barely had any rights as laborers in railroad camps and arguably still lack basic rights as Americans today.

Read more  

[Veerbone 116]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Meanwhile, in the SEC . . . 

 

Just this am was thinking this would be a great idea, but not at Texas “Don’t  mess with Texas (Uni’s)”.
 

Separate note:

Anyone know if “The Eyes” was exclusively a minstrel/black faced Cowboys application for an extended period of time or was it a one off &/or blended with several scenarios after that original intro?

[Valmy77 13125]

7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You don't want to believe it, I get it. It was a long time ago.

I was just going by what the article said about the lyrics. I am perfectly willing to believe anything that is true. It is not like I have some kind of rose-tinted glasses about the past.

And yes I know quite a bit about that particular form of entertainment.

If the problem is rather the music itself rather than the words, which was what I was talking about, then ok. That's a new wrinkle.

But let's have a discussion not just claim everybody who is working out their thoughts is the same as somebody who thinks Sul Ross is great.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Valmy77

[Saint Austin 745]

Just now, Veerbone said:

Just this am was thinking this would be a great idea, but not at Texas “Don’t  mess with Texas (Uni’s)”.
 

Separate note:

Anyone know if “The Eyes” was exclusively a minstrel/black faced Cowboys application for an extended period of time or was it a one off &/or blended with several scenarios after that original intro?

This will happen here, too, book it, and possibly as a compromise to keep "The Eyes." I love our burnt orange, but for people wanting to start a "new tradition," this might not be a horrible way to show support for our black players and community, and a lot of the players would love it. Hell, even places like Notre Dame wears alternate unis once a year. Might as well use this as a reason to embrace the idea.

[Wally Pryor 5245]

8 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

Is he confusing the real Jerry Jones with the fake Jerry Jones that Gordon Keith does?!

Looks like the Musers did an interview with (Brian) Jones yesterday morning. 

Respect his opinion as much as any black athlete that played at Texas so interested in hearing the interview.  No luck finding it, so far. 

[Fondren & Main 6675]

1 hour ago, Veerbone said:

Yup.

Best guess, all requests will be honored In large part with the exception of The Eyes & the funding of BLM.  
 

That will satisfy most but not all, in this scenario we move forward as a better place with the ones who really have the University in their hearts.  

This will be how to keep the money.  I wonder if that’s what will happen though.

[Armybrat 40755]

13 hours ago, Assman said:

I would adopt the ISIS alma mater if it brought us a national championship.

Blow ‘em up, blow ‘em up, sis boom... boom?

[Nope 3112]

 

 

[Apex73 313]

Both sides need to listen carefully to each other.  Compromise rarely happens when people are demanding and screaming or tone deaf and dismissive.

[C-Man 27083]

3 hours ago, Wally Pryor said:

What station?  An Austin one?  The Ticket? 

In case nobody has posted it, you can find it here: https://www.theticket.com/shows/the-musers/

It's second one down on the "Playlist"

[C-Man 27083]

No need for two posts. Sorry.

Edited June 18, 2020 by C-Man

[Not a cat 5622]

12 hours ago, Irieguy said:

Doesn’t matter how it’s song. It’s the origin. Bruce Springsteen could move to Haiti. He will always be a Jersey act. This isn’t hard. 

That's why everyone always associates Jerry Jeff Walker with New York and Willie with Baylor.  I mean that's where they originated...

Having said that, if it really is offensive to AA students, change it.  I wasn't even aware of the possibility until a week ago. 

[Wally Pryor 5245]

2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

In case nobody has posted it, you can find it here: https://www.theticket.com/shows/the-musers/

It's second one down on the "Playlist"

Thanks much.

[Wally Pryor 5245]

1 minute ago, Dr. Beeper said:

The Ticket. They didn’t have Brian Jones podcast last night on the Dallas Morning News app. I’ll search for it. 

C-Man linked it above. 

Thanks. 

[Wally Pryor 5245]

The University of Florida will no longer allow its "Gator Bait" cheer at sporting events because of "historic racist imagery associated with the phrase," school president Kent Fuchs announced Thursday.

As part of a university-wide review to help the school take steps against racism, Fuchs highlighted the cheer as action that will be taken immediately.

"While I know of no evidence of racism associated with our 'Gator Bait' cheer at UF sporting events, there is horrific historic racist imagery associated with the phrase," Fuchs said. "Accordingly, University Athletics and the Gator Band will discontinue the use of the cheer."

When the band strikes up the familiar tune at sporting events, fans respond with a chomping motion with their arms and shout "Gator Bait!"

African American babies were used as alligator bait, according to the Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorabilia at Ferris State University, citing newspaper articles and imagery from the late 1800s and early 20th century. The term "alligator bait" was also used as a racial slur against African Americans.

 

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/29329250/university-florida-putting-end-gator-bait-cheer-band-performance-due-racist-history