Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[Fondren & Main 6675]

57 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Doubt it. Old timers are being replaced by corporate ticket buyers and transplants, who decidedly do not care. The students won’t care. I predict heavy financial adverse impact over Covid until it dies down. 

On this note, my 69 yo dad and 65 yo mom are “through” with Texas football without the Eyes. My ten yo son didn’t understand and I had to explain to him that they’re set in their ways, and that the black players have some valid points, but that I did not believe the Eyes were one of them. I told him that the song in and of itself isn’t worth getting into a tizzy about, and his grandparents were being ridiculous. But, I wasn’t about to call them out on it, because they agreed with the building name changes, kind of agreed about Whittier, and disagreed on BLM. It just created an opportunity for me to tell my son why this is happening and why it’s important. 

I failed to tell them zork from Surlyhorns.com wanted to devote half our endowment to be spent on payments to Ramonce Taylor and Rashad Bobino and BLM and other social programs. I didn’t want a goddamned riot in my house. 

 

[David Dennison 18694]

5 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Assuming there is A) a season and B) fans in the stands. I could absolutely see this scenario happening. This team (and staff) has not proven themselves to have a lot of mental toughness to begin with (not because of the issues being raised by team now - rather shit like 3rd & 17 give up, defensive offsides on roach, goal line stupidity etc)

They lose to LSU & OU and this program is dead man walking regardless of Herman's contract.

Not if they win the other 10.

[BabaYaga 15215]

2 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

Assuming there is A) a season and B) fans in the stands. I could absolutely see this scenario happening. This team (and staff) has not proven themselves to have a lot of mental toughness to begin with (not because of the issues being raised by team now - rather shit like 3rd & 17 give up, defensive offsides on roach, goal line stupidity etc)

They lose to LSU & OU and this program is dead man walking regardless of Herman's contract.

Yep.  We are still in the first act.  This play is far from over.  On the plus side, I think this will engender a whole new generation of young, black position and HCs as demand in this area will spike as well.  Not all unintended consequences are bad.  

[Valmy77 13125]

15 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

I'm not worried about boo's from singing or not singing - I'm worried the players get what they want, then shit the bed during the season, and get the crap boo'd out of them for playing awful....and start sulking, crying foul, playing the victim card, etc.  

I mean that is just a normal season. I don't know why you would be worried about that.

 

[BabaYaga 15215]

5 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

I mean that is just a normal season. I don't know why you would be worried about that.

 

From Section 102! 

 

TEXAS!!!!!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Jacob McCandles 202]

39 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I think this the major sticking point for some. I'm guessing the players and all black people do not agree with you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is some that say the song has evolved since then. But I think the people wanting the song gone do not think the delivery can be separated from the song. You may use any analogy you want to try and separate the two, but I just don't think you're going to convince one side. 

Other than Mitchell leaving the field prior to The Eyes last season during one game, I am not aware of other complaints/concerns/whatever being raised about the song in the 50 years since Texas had an integrated football team (no time to look up when other sports integrated, but presume about the same time); if anyone knows of other instances, I'd like to hear them. To me, the lack of prior "protests" is some evidence that the song has evolved. Statements from former players, like the one from Brian Jones, are another. Nevertheless, I agree that the side wanting The Eyes gone will never agree with me (and perhaps others) that there is a difference between the song and the delivery, or that the meaning/connotation/purpose of the song might have evolved over the past 117 years.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Jacob McCandles

[W0244 Jester 104]

21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yep.  We are still in the first act.  This play is far from over.  On the plus side, I think this will engender a whole new generation of young, black position and HCs as demand in this area will spike as well.  Not all unintended consequences are bad.  

We need input from Maybe A Coordinator

[89Horn 1495]

If the decision is ultimately that the Eyes not be played by the UT band at the games, I expect the Rice MOB to play it over and over when we play them in the future.  Frankly, I would find that really funny.

[Valmy77 13125]

My concern is that now that this is all out there in national coversation it will be hard to walk it back. Now maybe I am overestimating the attention span of the US sports media and population but if this gets linked in the public imagination with being a racist minstrel song we will never live it down if we keep it.

So even if we go through a big discussion and have a compromise where we decide to keep it, hypothetically with all the players onboard, will it not eventually be a big mess anyway? Won't this constantly be an attack against us by the usual suspects who love to pile on us? And plus plenty of UT alumni are just not going to want to use the Alma Mater anymore now that this has been brought to their attention.

It seems like we are in a tough spot. But I guess we will see how it develops.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Valmy77

[BabaYaga 15215]

5 minutes ago, W0244 Jester said:

We need input from Maybe A Coordinator

To this day, one of Mack's best initial moves (aside from keeping Ricky) was hiring Bruce Chambers from Dallas Carter.  He was such a well known AA coach from the DFW area that immediately ingrained Mack with the HS coaches and players.  Nor was it a charity case - Chambers was a fantastic coach and a great hire on Mack's part.  I'm great friends with a former player @ Ole Miss that is great friends with Arthur Johnson.  The stories from these position coaches and the time they spent with players and the myriad of issues they faced.  It's amazing really how important they are to the players and their development (as men).  

*I'd heard stories of Charlie's time in the trenches working and developing the players on D @ UF.  Which was why I had such high hopes for him as so many others did.  How Myer would run roughshod through the locker room, piss a bunch of guys off, them Charlie would come in behind him and really get the players to understand and connect.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

To this day, one of Mack's best initial moves (aside from keeping Ricky) was hiring Bruce Chambers from Dallas Carter.  He was such a well known AA coach from the DFW area that immediately ingrained Mack with the HS coaches and players.  Nor was it a charity case - Chambers was a fantastic coach and a great hire on Mack's part.  I'm great friends with a former player @ Ole Miss that is great friends with Arthur Johnson.  The stories from these position coaches and the time they spent with players and the myriad of issues they faced.  It's amazing really how important they are to the players and their development (as men).  

*I'd heard stories of Charlie's time in the trenches working and developing the players on D @ UF.  Which was why I had such high hopes for him as so many others did.  How Myer would run roughshod through the locker room, piss a bunch of guys off, them Charlie would come in behind him and really get the players to understand and connect.  

Chambers was a fantastic coach?  That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that.

[BevoSwag 272]

1 hour ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Doubt it. Old timers are being replaced by corporate ticket buyers and transplants, who decidedly do not care. The students won’t care. I predict heavy financial adverse impact over Covid until it dies down. 

On this note, my 69 yo dad and 65 yo mom are “through” with Texas football without the Eyes. My ten yo son didn’t understand and I had to explain to him that they’re set in their ways, and that the black players have some valid points, but that I did not believe the Eyes were one of them. I told him that the song in and of itself isn’t worth getting into a tizzy about, and his grandparents were being ridiculous. But, I wasn’t about to call them out on it, because they agreed with the building name changes, kind of agreed about Whittier, and disagreed on BLM. It just created an opportunity for me to tell my son why this is happening and why it’s important. 

I failed to tell them zork from Surlyhorns.com wanted to devote half our endowment to be spent on payments to Ramonce Taylor and Rashad Bobino and BLM and other social programs. I didn’t want a goddamned riot in my house. 

I"m much older than your parents.  Are you sure they really object to the changes or just the losing?  They were part of a generation that say UT on top all the time.

[BabaYaga 15215]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Chambers was a fantastic coach?  That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say that.

He, maybe embellishing a little.  He was great @ Carter.  No doubt about that.  He also did a great job with Ricky, Hodges, and a young Benson before switching to TEs.  Then did a pretty good darn job with that group up until we lost Finley.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

He, maybe embellishing a little.  He was great @ Carter.  No doubt about that.  He also did a great job with Ricky, Hodges, and a young Benson before switching to TEs.  Then did a pretty good darn job with that group up until we lost Finley.  

He had zero to do with Ricky's success.  

[Mole 4320]

18 minutes ago, 89Horn said:

If the decision is ultimately that the Eyes not be played by the UT band at the games, I expect the Rice MOB to play it over and over when we play them in the future.  Frankly, I would find that really funny.

Either way, I expect some kind of “Tribute to our Racist Past” that gets them banned from a few stadiums for a few years.

[Valmy77 13125]

7 minutes ago, BevoSwag said:

I"m much older than your parents.  Are you sure they really object to the changes or just the losing?  They were part of a generation that say UT on top all the time.

All the time? UT was down in the 50s, 80s, 90s and 2010s. In the 70s we got to see our beloved DKR be humiliated by Barry Switzer. We have only reall dominated for short periods of time.

[BabaYaga 15215]

4 minutes ago, Mole said:

Either way, I expect some kind of “Tribute to our Racist Past” that gets them banned from a few stadiums for a few years.

I know what we can do.  Anyone got any swords we can borrow?

[Knighthawk 284]

Trying to think of examples of teams surrounded by a circus that still win big.   One that comes to mind is the Bulls with Rodman.  They only had the goat with Jordan .... any others examples come to mind??

[South Austin 52171]

35 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

He had zero to do with Ricky's success.  

Not even sure Bucky Godbolt can claim credit for Ricky beyond recruiting him.

[Saint Tacky 1610]

2 hours ago, Apex73 said:

Then what would your limit be?

I have no objections to anything that's been requested. Again, I cut the deal and move on down the road before the players either (a) demand something truly unreasonable; or (b) the matter blows-up in our faces and the ultimate resolution becomes inconsequential as to the perceived failure to act. Florida's actions today only turns up the heat on Texas. Get it done.

[Apex73 313]

3 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

I have no objections to anything that's been requested. Again, I cut the deal and move on down the road before the players either (a) demand something truly unreasonable; or (b) the matter blows-up in our faces and the ultimate resolution becomes inconsequential as to the perceived failure to act. Florida's actions today only turns up the heat on Texas. Get it done.

I would say demanding money be given to BLM is pretty unreasonable.  But that's just my opinion.  And who's to say there won't be more demands even if you meet all these?

[Deej 76599]

8 minutes ago, South Austin said:

Not even sure Bucky Godbolt can claim credit for Ricky beyond recruiting him.

Bucky has said he had nothing to do with Ricky's greatness. 

[South Austin 52171]

Might I offer a suggestion?  What if we replace The Eyes of Texas with Love is a Battlefield? Hear me out . . . .

[Saint Tacky 1610]

Just now, Apex73 said:

I would say demanding money be given to BLM is pretty unreasonable.  But that's just my opinion.  And who's to say there won't be more demands even if you meet all these?

Unreasonable to you, and perhaps me, but that doesn't matter. Clearly it is significant to the players and teams. The suits can say there won't be any more demands. This is a final agreement and is intended to encompass and resolve all demands.

[Saint Tacky 1610]

1 minute ago, South Austin said:

Might I offer a suggestion?  What if we replace The Eyes of Texas with Love is a Battlefield? Hear me out . . . .

or, Hell is for Children?

[mdmost 42876]

1 minute ago, South Austin said:

Might I offer a suggestion?  What if we replace The Eyes of Texas with Love is a Battlefield? Hear me out . . . .

I would agree to this but only if the players do the shoulder shake when they sing it.

[Apex73 313]

4 minutes ago, Saint Tacky said:

Unreasonable to you, and perhaps me, but that doesn't matter. Clearly it is significant to the players and teams. The suits can say there won't be any more demands. This is a final agreement and is intended to encompass and resolve all demands.

I mean that's all well and good in theory but it definitely could go a completely different direction.  Meaning they get their demands met then they make more later.  I have no idea what they would be its just hypothetical.  I guess we cross that bridge when we get there.

[Skipper 6107]

Rod Babers just tweeted the best idea I've heard yet.  Name a section of the Stadium for Julius Whittier, place the band in that section and have players/fans face that section when Singing the Eyes.

[BrazilHorn 6577]

4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Rod Babers just tweeted the best idea I've heard yet.  Name a section of the Stadium for Julius Whittier, place the band in that section and have players/fans face that section when Singing the Eyes.

I am curious to see how the current players and former players come together and align on a set of proposals. Then add in the BMDs and the average donor/fan and you get a big bowl of misalignment.

[Macanudo 12936]

9 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Rod Babers just tweeted the best idea I've heard yet.  Name a section of the Stadium for Julius Whittier, place the band in that section and have players/fans face that section when Singing the Eyes.

I like this.  I like it A LOT. 

[Apex73 313]

I just think they are reaching too far on what I see as a trivial issue.  Like B. Jones said, the song itself doesn't have racist intent.  I don't want to pretend like I know their feelings about it but there comes a point where you should really examine is this really worth the trouble?  All the other stuff I totally understand why they would want that and they should get it but this is asking a little too much in my opinion and obviously even in the opinions of former players.

[Apex73 313]

7 minutes ago, BrazilHorn said:

I am curious to see how the current players and former players come together and align on a set of proposals. Then add in the BMDs and the average donor/fan and you get a big bowl of misalignment.

That is the best proposed compromise Ive heard so far.

[Tex Pete 20196]

21 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Rod Babers just tweeted the best idea I've heard yet.  Name a section of the Stadium for Julius Whittier, place the band in that section and have players/fans face that section when Singing the Eyes.

Perfectly reasonable. It shows that The Eyes is important to lots of our former players, too. I don’t think anyone would have an issue with recognizing Julius Whittier. Naming something for him, putting up a statue, whatever. 

[Brisketexan 104746]

I like this.  I like it A LOT. 

I do too. It’s a great announcement at the end of each game: “ladies and gentlemen, please turn and face the Julius Whittier section for the Eyes of Texas.” It gets a mention every game, and becomes its own tradition - not just a statue in forgotten corner.

 

Hell, at away games, a member of the LHB can hold up a sign - “Julius Whittier Section,” and that’s where the players and fans face.

[David Dennison 18694]

15 minutes ago, Apex73 said:

I just think they are reaching too far on what I see as a trivial issue.  Like B. Jones said, the song itself doesn't have racist intent.  I don't want to pretend like I know their feelings about it but there comes a point where you should really examine is this really worth the trouble?  All the other stuff I totally understand why they would want that and they should get it but this is asking a little too much in my opinion and obviously even in the opinions of former players.

If it's trivial, why do you care?

[SHOOTER12 8791]

1 hour ago, South Austin said:

Might I offer a suggestion?  What if we replace The Eyes of Texas with Love is a Battlefield? Hear me out . . . .

I was thinking (yeah I know, a rarity), if Eyes are dropped, as many skilled writers and musicians as we have on this site, why not start submitting possible replacement songs?  Or at the very least possible lyrics?  Maybe something based on current struggles and use it to unify and bring us all together?

Yeah, I'll shut up now.

[maninblack 7974]

Good idea from Babers. Song still isn't racist.

[SHOOTER12 8791]

23 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I like this.  I like it A LOT. 

+1

[Valmy77 13125]

Ok it's out there on twitter...I guess we wait for the response.

[bullet 1596]

7 hours ago, Skipper said:

Orangebloods now has a bunch of old whitey's so pissed they are clammoring to do away with UT athletics or scholarship athletics as a whole  One guy even has the idea that "all players should have same academic standards" and be "parents should be forced to pay for the players tutoring"  And you wonder why our players have some of these attitudes.   Seriously, the Boomers (at least many of them) just need to fucking die off already.

That's pretty disgusting of you even by Surly standards.  Very unifying of you also.  America is filled with hateful bleeding hear idiots.

[bullet 1596]

6 hours ago, SHOOTER12 said:

I will say one thing, I've learned more about racism and racist history than I ever thought I could.  Damn there's some crazy stuff in the past(and now).

Yes, but if you believe everything you read, you are believing a lot of fiction.  Be skeptical of stuff (on any side) that comes out at a time like this.

[bullet 1596]

4 hours ago, BrazilHorn said:

I think the optics just look better. It feels like Texas (CDC/Hartzell) are in pursuit of perfection vs a good start.

There is also zero way to enforce the crowd themselves yelling "Gator Bait" but it certainly sounds good to not have cheerleaders start the cheer themselves.

Texas needs to move faster here, start announcing some of the changes the players have requested and get moving.

Wrong.  Fast is wrong.

Immediate discussion is right.  Get the facts.  Get the whole story.  No shoot from the hip decisions.

Remember when Houston named its international terminal after Mickey Leland just after he died, in violation of policy to wait 2 years before naming things after people?  He had nothing to do with helping the airport and he died IN A PLANE CRASH!!!!  Everyone wants to be reminded of plane crashes when they head to the airport.

[bullet 1596]

6 hours ago, Fondren & Main said:

I predict heavy financial losses over the song.  I bet the majority are in total agreement with every demand except BLM and the eyes.  And this is going to cause a reckoning. I hope that I am wrong.

I've got a real problem with Littlefield.  Yes he was a Confederate (and I don't concede that should be a disqualifier because it excludes 99.9% of all white southerners who were 12 and up in 1860), but he was honored because he was perhaps the biggest benefactor the school ever had.  Why should anyone support a school that, based on standards of 100 years later, spits on your legacy?

And the others need to be evaluated with the same thought process.  RLM looks like a sure change.  But what about Painter, a premier geneticist (apparently in the world), who was also president during the fight over integration?  Did he merely support the state's position or was he more like a Governor Wallace in Alabama?

The concerns need to be addressed, but also fleshed out.  Education goes both ways.

Edited June 19, 2020 by bullet

[EuroHorn 3204]

 

[Sgt Hulk 13648]

Rumor is. Baby shark is in the running to replace the eyes 

[Brothahorn 10085]

 

Hell no. We cannot have some dude from Atlanta rapping our song. Too many great rappers in Texas for that.

[formermav43 4599]

1 minute ago, Sgt Hulk said:

Rumor is. Baby shark is in the running to replace the eyes 

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo 

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo 

Texas Fight

[Sgt Hulk 13648]

Just now, formermav43 said:

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo 

Texas Fight, doo doo doo doo doo doo 

Texas Fight

That’s it mayne 

[Valmy77 13125]

36 minutes ago, bullet said:

I've got a real problem with Littlefield.  Yes he was a Confederate (and I don't concede that should be a disqualifier because it excludes 99.9% of all white southerners who were 12 and up in 1860), but he was honored because he was perhaps the biggest benefactor the school ever had.  Why should anyone support a school that, based on standards of 100 years later, spits on your legacy?

Littlefield is long dead so he won't be too upset. His big rival, George Brackenridge, was a Union guy though not exactly a saint. I thought it might be funny to just change the name to Brackenridge.

Quote

But what about Painter, a premier geneticist (apparently in the world), who was also president during the fight over integration?  Did he merely support the state's position or was he more like a Governor Wallace in Alabama?

Whether he wanted it or not Painter got his name on an infamous court case so his name will always be associated with white supremacy.

The Daily Texan Article almost makes it sound like Painter could decide himself to integrate the school:

https://thedailytexan.com/2019/08/27/painter-hall-memorializes-wrong-side-of-history

Quote

In 1946, Heman Sweatt applied for admission to the University of Texas School of Law. A hard-working, educated mail carrier in his 30s, he was like any other applicant in all respects but one — he was “duly qualified for admission into the Law School at the University of Texas, save and except for the fact that he is a Negro.” 

Those were the words of Theophilus Painter, the president of the University at the time. Today, UT has a building on campus bearing his name — Painter Hall. 

However, Painter was more that just a racist. He was on the losing side of a Supreme Court case, one that laid the groundwork to desegregate the entire U.S. public school system. Instead of honoring his stain on U.S. history, lets rename his building after one of UT’s most significant students — Heman Sweatt.

“Heman Sweatt was a letter carrier. A mail person,” Edmund T. Gordon, vice provost for diversity said. “He wanted to study law… he was denied admission because he was black. They began running the case, with the help of the NAACP, up through the court system to the point where it reached the Supreme Court… with Thurgood Marshall arguing the case.” 

The case, Sweatt v. Painter, was decided unanimously in Sweatt’s favor and against the University. The University of Texas was forced to allow black students into its graduate schools. However, the undergraduate school remained segregated.

“That precedent, with a couple of others, became the basis for the Supreme Court decision in 1954, Brown v. Board of Education, which definitively knocked down Plessy v. Ferguson,” Gordon said. 

Despite Sweatt’s immense contribution and sacrifice for civil rights, his name is not memorialized as a building on UT’s main campus. Instead, students of color study in a building named for the man who fought in the country’s highest court to keep them out. 

“I feel like renaming the building is one way to make the black student body feel more included and respected in the University environment,” journalism sophomore Angelica Arinze said. “Sometimes I think there’s a difference between remembering history and growing from it.”

UT has renamed buildings named after racists before. Until 2010, Creekside Residence Hall was named after William Simkins, a former Klansman and law professor. 

“I don’t see why they can’t do the same for Painter Hall,” Arinze said. “It makes me feel like UT doesn’t really care enough to make sure the black community at UT feels completely respected and included.”

Simkins and Painter would hate the campus of today — both explicitly told black students that they didn’t belong at UT. For students like Arinze, she said it’s hard not to feel like that when those are the names UT chooses to honor.

“UT’s inability and reluctance to make positive, inclusive change to their university’s structures stems from an inability to have a deep conversation about heavily racialized experiences students are having on this campus,” Arinze said. 

Replacing Painter’s name with Sweatt’s would not be erasing history — it would serve as a reminder of the shame of our past as well as a celebration of the black students on our campus today. However, UT won’t make changes without student pressure and efforts to make their voices heard.

“If students are really committed to something like that, I find it hard to believe that the University… would ignore them forever,” said Gordon.  “But if they're not, then it's easier for the University to leave those things with the way they are.”

So, let’s keep fighting for a university that reflects our student body. Instead of honoring a man who would have kept UT from progressing, let’s memorialize one who paved the way for diversity across the country. Let’s send a message that all students are welcome here.

I would have appreciated a bit more support for the assertion that he was a racist. I mean he might have just been stating the facts there and it was the Regents or state law that were responsible for the situation. Or maybe he actually could have just decided to integrate the Law School and didn't because he was a racist. I don't know. The fact Painter admits he is qualified to be in the Law School is interesting. I wish we had a bit more information.

But his name on the court case is just really bad for his reputation. I mean they say he would hate the campus of today but he was on campus until the late 60s so it was not like he never saw black students. Did he have any black students or anything? I don't know. 

I asked earlier why Hogg was so terrible, but I guess that as governor when he was governor he probably signed some pretty bad laws.

An explanation why each one was bad would have been nice. But ah well. They are all just names of times gone by it is not like we don't have other prestigious people associated with our University we could use instead. None of those guys are sacred or anything.

[Apex73 313]

32 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Littlefield is long dead so he won't be too upset. His big rival, George Brackenridge, was a Union guy though not exactly a saint. I thought it might be funny to just change the name to Brackenridge.

Whether he wanted it or not Painter got his name on an infamous court case so his name will always be associated with white supremacy.

The Daily Texan Article almost makes it sound like Painter could decide himself to integrate the school:

https://thedailytexan.com/2019/08/27/painter-hall-memorializes-wrong-side-of-history

I would have appreciated a bit more support for the assertion that he was a racist. I mean he might have just been stating the facts there and it was the Regents or state law that were responsible for the situation. Or maybe he actually could have just decided to integrate the Law School and didn't because he was a racist. I don't know. The fact Painter admits he is qualified to be in the Law School is interesting. I wish we had a bit more information.

But his name on the court case is just really bad for his reputation. I mean they say he would hate the campus of today but he was on campus until the late 60s so it was not like he never saw black students. Did he have any black students or anything? I don't know. 

I asked earlier why Hogg was so terrible, but I guess that as governor when he was governor he probably signed some pretty bad laws.

An explanation why each one was bad would have been nice. But ah well. They are all just names of times gone by it is not like we don't have other prestigious people associated with our University we could use instead. None of those guys are sacred or anything.

Completely agree.  I will not lose a wink of sleep over the names or the statues.