Texas athletes petitioning University to replace "The Eyes of Texas" and to no longer require athletes to sing it

[Wanker Bob 379]

18 hours ago, Tex Pete said:

They can feel whatever the fuck they want to, but those words were written some 40 years after slavery to mock the university president at a campus with only white students, faculty, and administrators. Only a dense person would relate those words to slavery after being made aware of those facts. The words have nothing to do with slavery because there had been no slaves for 40 years.

I'm sure being universally recognized as a gigantic racist institution who refuses to change a racist song by the black community in America will do wonders for talent acquisition to actually be good at football or basketball or any sport that anyone gives enough of a shit to make revenue again. 

Sometimes even if you are correct and have truth on your side you have to make sacrifices in order to get/keep a job, keep out of jail on wrongful charges, or in this case keep the ability to field teams worth any kind of a shit in sports that are cash cows. 

I know you feel helpless and that you shouldn't have to change the way you do things because you are right. Well, welcome to what it's like being a minority in America. Choose between being right or the ability to field a competitive team. Tough shit. 

[MirrOlure 14643]

Look, Black America, we're going to need you to stop being so uppity and demanding instant change. As the last 250 years have shown, if you just have a little patience and compliance and trust in the affluent white oligarchs who run this country, you'll be well on your way to social equality. We promise. Now, shut up and go beat the hell out of each other without a wage, to enrich and entertain us. 
 
 

For fuck’s sake....

[Wanker Bob 379]

2 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Look, Black America, we're going to need you to stop being so uppity and demanding instant change. As the last 250 years have shown, if you just have a little patience and compliance and trust in the affluent white oligarchs who run this country, you'll be well on your way to social equality. We promise. Now, shut up and go beat the hell out of each other without a wage, to enrich and entertain us.

 

 

 

No shit. Being so hard line in the sand about a song when you have almost zero leverage against an entire community you 100 percent rely on for fielding a competitive team is the epitome of spoiled white privilege. I hope the black community boycotts this University and athletic programs if they're really that stupid about it. Just change the damn song and keep the unpaid highly specialized labor force you rely on and can't replace at least somewhat happy. 

[Tex Pete 20196]

Bob, you seem like a wanker. 

[MirrOlure 14643]

No shit. Being so hard line in the sand about a song when you have almost zero leverage against an entire community you 100 percent rely on for fielding a competitive team is the epitome of spoiled white privilege. I hope the black community boycotts this University and athletic programs if they're really that stupid about it. Just change the damn song and keep the unpaid highly specialized labor force you rely on and can't replace at least somewhat happy. 

So, you and Big Brain Brad help me out here: intolerance, narrow mindedness and broad generalizations are OK, as long as they jibe with a certain “enlightened” narrative? Agree with me on 100% of what I say, or you are a low IQ racist Cro Magnon White Supremacist?

[David Dennison 18694]

5 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

So, you and Big Brain Brad help me out here: intolerance, narrow mindedness and broad generalizations are OK, as long as they jibe with a certain “enlightened” narrative? Agree with me on 100% of what I say, or you are a low IQ racist Cro Magnon White Supremacist?

The ol' reverse racism angle. Always popular with aggrieved white folk.

[Wanker Bob 379]

6 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

So, you and Big Brain Brad help me out here: intolerance, narrow mindedness and broad generalizations are OK, as long as they jibe with a certain “enlightened” narrative? Agree with me on 100% of what I say, or you are a low IQ racist Cro Magnon White Supremacist?

No, I'm not talking about what's right or what's okay. I'm talking about reality, and the reality is if you don't want to risk pissing off a highly specialized labor community you rely on and cannot replace then you're going to have to make sacrifices to keep them happy. At least sacrifices comparable to the rest of your competition. If other competitors are changing in ways that are perceived to remove racism and you refuse to change in a way that is perceived racist by this specialized labor force then you risk not having the ability to be competitive. 

Are you really willing to risk being blackballed by the highest levels of talent from this specialized and unreplaceable labor force over a song? That is what the University administration is having to consider.

I don't know whether the song has racist tones in it's lyrics or not, and neither do you because neither of us were there when it was created. We are going off of stories that could have been manipulated. But even if there are no racist tones in the lyrics the fact that your specialized labor force believe so means you may have to change it anyway. I know it's tough for White America to understand but sometimes you have to make sacrifices even if you are right. 

[bad_teammate 13145]

6 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

I know it's tough for White America to understand but sometimes you have to make sacrifices even if you are right. 

Some men die in battle.

Some women suffer greatly in childbirth.

Some work 3 jobs to feed their kids.

But I had to stop singing a minstrelsy version of "I've Been Working on the Railroad" at a sporting event. 

It is truly I who make the ultimate sacrifice.

#Namaste

[MirrOlure 14643]

No....I think that a reasoned discussion about “the song” should occur, and “both sides” be open to what the “other” says and thinks. I personally believe (based on my own experiences and limited “research”) that the song has been unfairly tied to minstrel shows and slavery. I don’t deny that it “debuted” at such a show, and that the melody is derived from a tune of questionable (at best) if not nefarious origin.

The question then becomes (at least to me) are those two facts (pretty much universally agreed upon) sufficient to warrant ditching 100+ years of positive application of the song (at least to “most”) because Dr. Gordon says so?

[GHOSTUSER 361]

25 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

No, I'm not talking about what's right or what's okay. I'm talking about reality, and the reality is if you don't want to risk pissing off a highly specialized labor community you rely on and cannot replace then you're going to have to make sacrifices to keep them happy. At least sacrifices comparable to the rest of your competition. If other competitors are changing in ways that are perceived to remove racism and you refuse to change in a way that is perceived racist by this specialized labor force then you risk not having the ability to be competitive. 

Are you really willing to risk being blackballed by the highest levels of talent from this specialized and unreplaceable labor force over a song? That is what the University administration is having to consider.

I don't know whether the song has racist tones in it's lyrics or not, and neither do you because neither of us were there when it was created. We are going off of stories that could have been manipulated. But even if there are no racist tones in the lyrics the fact that your specialized labor force believe so means you may have to change it anyway. I know it's tough for White America to understand but sometimes you have to make sacrifices even if you are right. 

We could get rid of every player on this team and would still have 100s more dying to play for us.  The Eyes are more important than this set of players who haven’t won shit. The example set by the administration not caving in and replacing the malcontents would meet the approval of the vast majority of our fans.

[MirrOlure 14643]

No....I think that a reasoned discussion about “the song” should occur, and “both sides” be open to what the “other” says and thinks. I personally believe (based on my own experiences and limited “research”) that the song has been unfairly tied to minstrel shows and slavery. I don’t deny that it “debuted” at such a show, and that the melody is derived from a tune of questionable (at best) if not nefarious origin.

The question then becomes (at least to me) are those two facts (pretty much universally agreed upon) sufficient to warrant ditching 100+ years of positive application of the song (at least to “most”) because Dr. Gordon says so?

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 minute ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

We could get rid of every player on this team and would still have 100s more dying to play for us.  The Eyes are more important than this set of players who haven’t won shit. The example set by the administration not caving in and replacing the malcontents would meet the approval of the vast majority of our fans.

Now that's just stupid. Yeah, you can field a team with nothing but white players and the black players who only come because no one else wanted them, but you aren't winning anything like that ever. 

[BradInATX 9208]

No....I think that a reasoned discussion about “the song” should occur, and “both sides” be open to what the “other” says and thinks. I personally believe (based on my own experiences and limited “research”) that the song has been unfairly tied to minstrel shows and slavery. I don’t deny that it “debuted” at such a show, and that the melody is derived from a tune of questionable (at best) if not nefarious origin.  

The question then becomes (at least to me) are those two facts (pretty much universally agreed upon) sufficient to warrant ditching 100+ years of positive application of the song (at least to “most”) because Dr. Gordon says so?

 

No black people want to sit down and negotiate with a bunch of white men that googled "is the eyes of Texas racist" and then decided that based on extensive research, it's not an offensive song.The fact that you think your opinion about whether or not the song is offensive matters is exactly the problem.

 

The time of fragile white men getting to tell people what they're allowed to be offended by is slowly coming to an end. I understand that it's terrifying to consider that your children might have to compete with women and minorities on a level playing field. But you're going to have to get over it.

 

 

 

[David Dennison 18694]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

No black people want to sit down and negotiate with a bunch of white men that googled "is the eyes of Texas racist" and then decided that based on extensive research, it's not an offensive song.

The fact that you think your opinion about whether or not the song is offensive matters is exactly the problem.

The time of fragile white men getting to tell people what they're allowed to be offended by is slowly coming to an end. I understand that it's terrifying to consider that your children might have to compete with women and minorities on a level playing field. But you're going to have to get over it.

 

No matter what happens, the Eyes will be divisive from now on. It will split the team, students, and fans. That's reason enough to retire it.

[bad_teammate 13145]

38 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

The question then becomes (at least to me) are those two facts (pretty much universally agreed upon) sufficient to warrant ditching 100+ years of positive application of the song (at least to “most”) because Dr. Gordon says so?

The "at least to 'most'" part of your post is kind of the key, isn't it?

Also, reducing it to "because Dr. Gordon says so" is dismissive and patronizing. Which is fine, I guess, but when you say each side should be "open" to what the other has to say, that's kind of counter-productive. Either you want to fight about it or you don't. Pick one and party.

25 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

We could get rid of every player on this team and would still have 100s more dying to play for us.

The most replaceable people (angry fans who probably don't even have stuff named after them) talking about the hardest to replace people (elite athletes).

lol

[DiceHands 349]

Just fucking get rid of the song and end this distraction.  If we really do have football this year, were setting up for the biggest distraction filled season yet.  It would be nice to head into LSU without all this bullshit surrounding us.  Atleast shelve the song until we can come up with a better solution or a new song.

The song doesnt mean jack shit, especially to the younger generation.  I could never hear it or sing it again and be perfectly fine, and guess what, so could you.  Anyone still holding onto it as "muh turdition" is a dumb fuck.

Our admin needs to get their shit together before we lose the entire team.  You think black players are gonna go out there and sacrifice their bodies for a school that wouldnt even listen to them when they said "hey this thing is kinda fucked and we feel uncomfortable"?  I sure as fuck wouldnt.

[JFKFC 4878]

The origins of the performance of the Eyes is racist. 

Ergo, the song is racist.

Any argument otherwise is racist.

[Valmy77 13125]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

But I had to stop singing a minstrelsy version of "I've Been Working on the Railroad" at a sporting event. 

Um I've been Working on the Railroad is already a minstrel type song.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Valmy77

[Valmy77 13125]

5 minutes ago, JFKFC said:

The origins of the performance of the Eyes is racist. 

Ergo, the song is racist.

Any argument otherwise is racist.

I don't think it is quite that simple. As I said before, lots of stuff in our culture (and in cultures around the world) have weird or problematic origins. I don't think everything is automatically cancelled because of something long since past. But if it really bothers people it kind of ruins the whole point of the song. So keeping it would be the wrong decision. IMO.

But I also think it is unreasonable to just attack everybody who disagrees as racist.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Valmy77

[Valmy77 13125]

10 minutes ago, DiceHands said:

Just fucking get rid of the song and end this distraction.  If we really do have football this year, were setting up for the biggest distraction filled season yet.  It would be nice to head into LSU without all this bullshit surrounding us.  Atleast shelve the song until we can come up with a better solution or a new song.

The song doesnt mean jack shit, especially to the younger generation.  I could never hear it or sing it again and be perfectly fine, and guess what, so could you.  Anyone still holding onto it as "muh turdition" is a dumb fuck.

Our admin needs to get their shit together before we lose the entire team.  You think black players are gonna go out there and sacrifice their bodies for a school that wouldnt even listen to them when they said "hey this thing is kinda fucked and we feel uncomfortable"?  I sure as fuck wouldnt.

Thank God the season might be delayed. Totally agree. At least agree to suspend the song for this season pending some kind of discussion if you cannot bring yourself to just get rid of it.

[Apex73 313]

14 minutes ago, JFKFC said:

The origins of the performance of the Eyes is racist. 

Ergo, the song is racist.

Any argument otherwise is racist.

Only takes about 3 seconds of thinking to come up with a conclusion like that.  Definitely a well thought out analysis.

[ChickenSandwich 9803]

22 minutes ago, JFKFC said:

The origins of the performance of the Eyes is racist. 

Ergo, the song is racist.

Any argument otherwise is racist.

If we follow this sound reasoning....

150yrs ago White people owned slaves. They were racists

Ergo, all White people are racist. 

Any argument otherwise is racist. 

[Ghost of Shag 2585]

35 minutes ago, JFKFC said:

The origins of the performance of the Eyes is racist. 

Ergo, the song is racist.

Any argument otherwise is racist.

That’s some dumb shit right there.

[Apex73 313]

4 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Look, Black America, we're going to need you to stop being so uppity and demanding instant change. As the last 250 years have shown, if you just have a little patience and compliance and trust in the affluent white oligarchs who run this country, you'll be well on your way to social equality. We promise. Now, shut up and go beat the hell out of each other without a wage, to enrich and entertain us.

 

 

 

It really is amazing how you can take what I said and spin it completely out of control with your own bullshit.  You have had literally nothing of substance to say this entire thread just virtue signaling, pandering, and race baiting.  If you really think this way you need to go home and have a really long and serious conversation with yourself.  

[Ghost of Shag 2585]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

No black people want to sit down and negotiate with a bunch of white men that googled "is the eyes of Texas racist" and then decided that based on extensive research, it's not an offensive song.The fact that you think your opinion about whether or not the song is offensive matters is exactly the problem.

 

The time of fragile white men getting to tell people what they're allowed to be offended by is slowly coming to an end. I understand that it's terrifying to consider that your children might have to compete with women and minorities on a level playing field. But you're going to have to get over it.

 

 

 

And I’m guessing a bunch of old white men don’t really care to sit and negotiate with a bunch of eighteen and nineteen year olds who “heard” that the Eyes has racist origins and decided, based on that extensive research, that it’s an offensive song.

But you go ahead and play the “white men googling shit” theory.

[Apex73 313]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

There are two issues in this post and line of thought that I would like to address. I believe both play into each other. I see this second line of thinking brought up a lot in defense. Many people on one side “feel” that their views are not being heard. And once they voice their opinions, they are labeled racist and shouted down. They feel that is unfair and counter productive to change. You would like the other side to listen to your point and understand that you are not a racist. That is fair. No one who sang the song over the past 90 years or so is racist. No one is saying that. Loving that song was not racist. It was about school pride and celebrating the University. No one is debating that. That is a valid an true perspective. 
 

[“new” information has entered the conversation] 

1. Are Minstrel songs racist? 
2. Is “I’ve been working on a railroad” a minstrel song?

3. Was this song with new lyrics performed at a minstrel show in black face?

I’m going to let you do your own research on the above three questions. Those are the basis of the “new” information. I say new in quotation because while it may be new to you and me, and many of the players, it had been recognized by others before. The objections throughout different parts of history have been documented in this thread. However, most, because of the recently focus of BLM only just now are learning about these facts. 
 

Now, the players and many others have learned about these facts and would like it changed. They have presented their facts to you and you say I don’t believe you. I do not agree with your facts. What should that side feel about you? How should they label your opinion? They presented facts showing the songs origins and your opinion is that their facts are bullshit and you don’t believe them. How should they label you? Are you racist? Are you a terrible person? Probably not either, but you are someone that loves their school song and is unwilling to see the other side. No one is saying you are racist for singing the song for a hundred years, but after seeing the new information, and you still want to sing it. What should you be labeled? But how can you blame them for their reaction? To make matters worse, most of the alumni is white, the color of the people who originally owned slaves, and these are the people telling them no no, those facts aren’t facts. You are wrong. We really like singing this song. But we’re not racists for doing it. Your using your feelings as leverage to change my song. 

I bolded those words because they unknowingly or not attempt to lessen the veracity of the request. By using them, you have already degraded their facts to just feelings. You have degraded their request for change as manipulation. They’re not trying to manipulate you . They’re being pretty clear about it. That song was originally written as a minstrel song. Minstrel songs are racist. It was co-opted by a student and sung in black face. They want to represent a university that doesn’t celebrate its racist past. It was a part of our history. That is fine. It can be in the museum. But maybe we should all come together under a new song that celebrates everyone. 

 

Well you used a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing and you completely missed the point.  I have done the research on the song.  I understand they "feel" it is racist but that doesn't mean everyone does. Even a lot of the the former black players think they are going too far.  The song at this point wasn't even what I was talking about.  It's the attitude both sides of this are approaching this situation.  If Overshown wants to take his ball and go home he can do that but it seems very childish to me though I'm willing to hear him out.  But if all you have to say is the same vague things like it's racist because I feel this way then it's really hard for me to just do what you tell me.  Once again, I support everything else that was on their list one hundred percent.  Doesn't mean I have to agree with the last part.  You are basically saying because I disagree with the players on that that I didn't acknowledge facts and I'm not willing to hear them out.  Your'e the one who is wrong.

[Lidig8r 1862]

50 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Um I've been Working on the Railroad is already a minstrel type song.

Imma so confused. So, all minstrel shows are bad now? So, is this bad or good?

 

[Treefidy 1463]

3 hours ago, BradInATX said:

Look, Black America, we're going to need you to stop being so uppity and demanding instant change. As the last 250 years have shown, if you just have a little patience and compliance and trust in the affluent white oligarchs who run this country, you'll be well on your way to social equality. We promise. Now, shut up and go beat the hell out of each other without a wage, to enrich and entertain us.

 

 

 

I realize it’s not a popular opinion, but let’s at least be honest about football players and their “free education”. Are there half a dozen players on the team who will play meaningful time in the NFL and make significant money doing so?  Yes, and they are probably not receiving their market value playing in college (unless they are SEC) AND are physically ready for that profession.  There are more with future potential but they still need physical training, positional coaching, nutrition, and mental maturity to get to that level and be successful.  Are there >75 players who will never reach the NFL who are being “paid” tuition, books, room, meals, tutors, very high level medical treatment, along with an allowance?   Meals alone, how do the football players meals compare to what you ate in college?  There is no Golden Corral in the North end zone.

It’s true those don’t amount to an actual tax free wage that you can save or spend at your own discretion, but they are the trade off for representing the university as a student athlete.  For the great majority of players football represents an opportunity to get a degree for playing a game a lot of them actually want to play.   How many HS senior football players are relieved when the reality sets in that they will never play organized football again just as they are starting to hit their prime physical condition in life?  A few?   How many would jump at the chance to keep playing, all the benefits aside?  Probably a lot of them.  
 

Surely there are players playing only as a means to an end, like a chance to escape poverty.   Well, the NFL might be a golden ticket, but a college degree in a surer bet.   How many players get a more prestigious degree and better connections than they would have otherwise from academics alone?  More than a few.  
 

Most kids play football because they grew up loving the sport.  I mentioned high level medical care and I absolutely acknowledge that a lot of that care and treatment is a result of injuries from playing football.   Though how many players have prior injuries that are remedied after they enroll?  Or conditions not football related who end up with top specialists that would not have been available otherwise?   We have quite a few just on our team alone.  
 

I don’t disagree with most of what you post, it’s the hyperbole that gets stale.   This “great melting pot” of a country has some long overdue change that’s needed, the whole concept of race needs to be removed from the equation.  We are all people, good, bad, ugly, beautiful, whatever... we need to move on from the social construct of race and focus on our species and our relationship with the planet and beyond.   But the near-term demands of social equity and wether or not athletes get paid are two very different subjects.  Yeah, most college football players think they are going to the NFL, so yeah they are underpaid at this point in their career.   But reality speaks otherwise and most of them are being compensated quite well for a teenager playing a sport.   

[bad_teammate 13145]

22 minutes ago, Treefidy said:

But reality speaks otherwise and most of them are being compensated quite well for a teenager playing a sport.   

Not relative to the revenue they produce, not even close. Their coach makes $5M/year, which makes the "teenager playing a sport" characterization somewhat disingenuous.

 

[TreatyOak 16169]

[BradInATX 9208]

 

 

 

 

I realize it’s not a popular opinion, but let’s at least be honest about football players and their “free education”. Are there half a dozen players on the team who will play meaningful time in the NFL and make significant money doing so?  Yes, and they are probably not receiving their market value playing in college (unless they are SEC) AND are physically ready for that profession.  There are more with future potential but they still need physical training, positional coaching, nutrition, and mental maturity to get to that level and be successful.  Are there >75 players who will never reach the NFL who are being “paid” tuition, books, room, meals, tutors, very high level medical treatment, along with an allowance?   Meals alone, how do the football players meals compare to what you ate in college?  There is no Golden Corral in the North end zone. It’s true those don’t amount to an actual tax free wage that you can save or spend at your own discretion, but they are the trade off for representing the university as a student athlete.  For the great majority of players football represents an opportunity to get a degree for playing a game a lot of them actually want to play.   How many HS senior football players are relieved when the reality sets in that they will never play organized football again just as they are starting to hit their prime physical condition in life?  A few?   How many would jump at the chance to keep playing, all the benefits aside?  Probably a lot of them.  

 

Surely there are players playing only as a means to an end, like a chance to escape poverty.   Well, the NFL might be a golden ticket, but a college degree in a surer bet.   How many players get a more prestigious degree and better connections than they would have otherwise from academics alone?  More than a few.  

 

Most kids play football because they grew up loving the sport.  I mentioned high level medical care and I absolutely acknowledge that a lot of that care and treatment is a result of injuries from playing football.   Though how many players have prior injuries that are remedied after they enroll?  Or conditions not football related who end up with top specialists that would not have been available otherwise?   We have quite a few just on our team alone.  

 

I don’t disagree with most of what you post, it’s the hyperbole that gets stale.   This “great melting pot” of a country has some long overdue change that’s needed, the whole concept of race needs to be removed from the equation.  We are all people, good, bad, ugly, beautiful, whatever... we need to move on from the social construct of race and focus on our species and our relationship with the planet and beyond.   But the near-term demands of social equity and wether or not athletes get paid are two very different subjects.  Yeah, most college football players think they are going to the NFL, so yeah they are underpaid at this point in their career.   But reality speaks otherwise and most of them are being compensated quite well for a teenager playing a sport.   

 

 

I appreciate this post and I'll probably come back and give it a more thoughtful response later as I'm many beers deep in the pool. I don't agree at all about college players mostly being adequately compensated. They are professionals and the expectations on them are professional. When schools have shut down to students but expect players to do OTAs, there is no longer any substance to the argument you're making. And I don't mean that as a confrontation starter. But you have to accept the reality that's playing out.

 

As for your point about hyperbole getting stale... hyperbole is the only thing that works in 2020 America. It took massive nationwide protests and a boiling over of centuries of anger to get enough attention to get an actual state to change their flag from a proud symbol of slavery in the year 2020. We as comfortable white people haven't really proven that "polite discourse" works. We've had 250 years to prove it. It's shocking to get punched back by the person you've bullied sometimes.

[BradInATX 9208]

And no, I'm not equivocating me using strong and confrontational language with the struggle of black people. I'm just an asshole for no reason and I think a lot of old money white people are terrified of a level playing field, and I think that's bitch made.

[Texaspython 231]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

If we follow this sound reasoning....

150yrs ago White people owned slaves. They were racists

Ergo, all White people are racist. 

Any argument otherwise is racist. 

Not a proper analogy. The song remains not the people. 

[MirrOlure 14643]

Not a proper analogy. The song remains not the people. 

So, who sings the song? People who have “evolved” beyond whatever questionable circumstances under which it originated.

[MirrOlure 14643]

No black people want to sit down and negotiate with a bunch of white men that googled "is the eyes of Texas racist" and then decided that based on extensive research, it's not an offensive song.The fact that you think your opinion about whether or not the song is offensive matters is exactly the problem.
 
The time of fragile white men getting to tell people what they're allowed to be offended by is slowly coming to an end. I understand that it's terrifying to consider that your children might have to compete with women and minorities on a level playing field. But you're going to have to get over it.
 
 
 

Yeah, well, that ain’t happening with an “I’ll hold my breath until you do 100% of everything I say and want” approach.

There are a few “white men” (quoting because YOU boil everything down to “us against them” race based analysis) that might have some ideas worth listening to, which (OMYGOD!) differ slightly from yours.

[BradInATX 9208]

Yeah, well, that ain’t happening with an “I’ll hold my breath until you do 100% of everything I say and want” approach.

There are a few “white men” (quoting because YOU boil everything down to “us against them” race based analysis) that might have some ideas worth listening to, which (OMYGOD!) differ slightly from yours.

I'm not sure why you keep making the same point over and over. We're all clear on the fact that you will only entertain the message of equality if the messenger properly knows their place.

[Texaspython 231]

33 minutes ago, MirrOlure said:

So, who sings the song? People who have “evolved” beyond whatever questionable circumstances under which it originated.

Yes, but let’s not be ridiculous. Lots of racists sing that song.

[MirrOlure 14643]

....and you’ll continue to presume, generalize and label. Time to wrap the brisket. Peace

[MirrOlure 14643]

Yes, but let’s not be ridiculous. Lots of racists sing that song.

There are a lot of enlightened non-racists that sing that song. What’s that got to do with anything? Who is arguing to keep the song BASED ON racist arguments or principles?

[BradInATX 9208]

....and you’ll continue to presume, generalize and label. Time to wrap the brisket. Peace

Post the after on the smoking thread. I have a pork butt on that's got a mind of it's own. Fighting the urge to foil it through the stall.

[BradInATX 9208]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Shag said:

And I’m guessing a bunch of old white men don’t really care to sit and negotiate

I would guess that you are correct

[BradInATX 9208]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

No matter what happens, the Eyes will be divisive from now on. It will split the team, students, and fans. That's reason enough to retire it.

Which is why the "don't force the issue" argument fails. Even if big cigar doesn't get rid of it immediately, it's a dead song walking. Activism works. It just needs some teeth. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by BradInATX

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

2 hours ago, Lidig8r said:

Imma so confused. So, all minstrel shows are bad now? So, is this bad or good?

 

Well, it features an overrated hack doing a bit that was cliched and boring even at the time it came out, so, yeah, it's bad.

Whether it's immoral or not is an entirely different discussion.

[Apex73 313]

34 minutes ago, Texaspython said:

Yes, but let’s not be ridiculous. Lots of racists sing that song.

Lot's of racists eat Mcdonalds too. Guess they should close up shop.

[Valmy77 13125]

2 hours ago, Lidig8r said:

Imma so confused. So, all minstrel shows are bad now? So, is this bad or good

I didn't say they were bad. Just saying it was originally written for that purpose. Whether or not it is bad has nothing to do with simple facts.

[BradInATX 9208]

Lot's of racists eat Mcdonalds too. Guess they should close up shop.

I remember being young and woefully ignorant of my lack of perspective and making arguments like this thinking I just owned the shit out of someone. Makes me nostalgic. I have a sudden craving for the OG 4 loko now

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 hours ago, Apex73 said:

Well you used a lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing and you completely missed the point.  I have done the research on the song.  I understand they "feel" it is racist but that doesn't mean everyone does. Even a lot of the the former black players think they are going too far.  The song at this point wasn't even what I was talking about.  It's the attitude both sides of this are approaching this situation.  If Overshown wants to take his ball and go home he can do that but it seems very childish to me though I'm willing to hear him out.  But if all you have to say is the same vague things like it's racist because I feel this way then it's really hard for me to just do what you tell me.  Once again, I support everything else that was on their list one hundred percent.  Doesn't mean I have to agree with the last part.  You are basically saying because I disagree with the players on that that I didn't acknowledge facts and I'm not willing to hear them out.  Your'e the one who is wrong.

I just realized while you may have read what I wrote, you are either intellectually or emotionally not competent enough to understand the words. You don’t think the song is racist and you’re never going to see it as such. No matter what evidence is presented to you. I don’t know how to respond. I guess it makes me a little sad. I hope someday you truly see the other side. 

[Apex73 313]

7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I just realized while you may have read what I wrote, you are either intellectually or emotionally not competent enough to understand the words. You don’t think the song is racist and you’re never going to see it as such. No matter what evidence is presented to you. I don’t know how to respond. I guess it makes me a little sad. I hope someday you truly see the other side. 

I'm not the only one who doesn't think it's racist, including a lot of black people.  And I hope someday you will stop pandering and virtue signaling for a cause you really don't care about at all.  We'll see which one happens first.

[Apex73 313]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

1 hour ago, Apex73 said:

Lot's of racists eat Mcdonalds too. Guess they should close up shop.

I remember being young and woefully ignorant of my lack of perspective and making arguments like this thinking I just owned the shit out of someone. Makes me nostalgic. I have a sudden craving for the OG 4 loko now

Haha you absolutely have no room to talk about a lack of perspective or making sustainable arguments.  Your entire argument is "your racist" if you don't agree without any evidence of anyone being racist.  Absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.  

Edited July 4, 2020 by Apex73

[Apex73 313]

5 hours ago, Wanker Bob said:

No, I'm not talking about what's right or what's okay. I'm talking about reality, and the reality is if you don't want to risk pissing off a highly specialized labor community you rely on and cannot replace then you're going to have to make sacrifices to keep them happy. At least sacrifices comparable to the rest of your competition. If other competitors are changing in ways that are perceived to remove racism and you refuse to change in a way that is perceived racist by this specialized labor force then you risk not having the ability to be competitive. 

Are you really willing to risk being blackballed by the highest levels of talent from this specialized and unreplaceable labor force over a song? That is what the University administration is having to consider.

I don't know whether the song has racist tones in it's lyrics or not, and neither do you because neither of us were there when it was created. We are going off of stories that could have been manipulated. But even if there are no racist tones in the lyrics the fact that your specialized labor force believe so means you may have to change it anyway. I know it's tough for White America to understand but sometimes you have to make sacrifices even if you are right. 

This is never going to happen regardless of what happens with the song.  Their will always be top tier talent that will play for UT.  You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think any different.