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Michael Knight

Michael Knight 13197

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Splash Mountain being reimagined

 

The log flume ride — which is based on the controversial 1946 film "Song of the South" — isn't going anywhere. Instead, it will be rethemed to star the characters from the 2009 animated film, "The Princess and the Frog," which features Disney's first Black princess.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/media/splash-mountain-disney/index.html

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NotActuallyALonghorn

NotActuallyALonghorn 4999

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Honestly, with the whole Splash Mountain thing, Br'er Rabbit was taken directly from African American folklore that originates from West African folk lore and probably was combined with stories from Native Americans. I understand that Song of the South is considered by many to be racist, but Disney has pretty well distanced themselves from that for a long time. The folk stories told in it are part of African American culture and I wouldn't think that they should be considered racist. Of course I am not a spokesperson for the African American community, but those are just my thoughts. I am glad, however, that they are at least replacing it with The Princess and the Frog, which is probably one of the most underrated Disney movies out there, even if it does have racist stereotypes of Cajuns in it.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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I don't think there is much of a question that Song of the South has heavy racist overtones. The story could be told without playing up stereotypes. FYI, you can find fair use clips of it on youtube if you don't know what I mean. The cartoon aspects are really bad. 

There are challenges of whether something today needs to be retired because of some past association of something racist. Sounds like Splash Mountain is one, and we know the Eyes of Texas is another. I imagine that many things today are directly or indirectly tied to something in the past that was racist given that the country looks to have been racist at every turn in many aspects. 

And the pendulum will most likely swing too far and some things taken down that even people that could be offended, are not. Given the past, it's not worth fighting over it.

 

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NotActuallyALonghorn

NotActuallyALonghorn 4999

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34 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don't think there is much of a question that Song of the South has heavy racist overtones. The story could be told without playing up stereotypes. FYI, you can find fair use clips of it on youtube if you don't know what I mean. The cartoon aspects are really bad. 

 

I've never seen the cartoon, but I remember growing up we had a book that I think was based on the movie. Yes, there are stereotypes, but many of those stereotypes exist because they wre true. At least with patterns of speech and such. And many of those patterns of speech were the same for folks of all color. Whether or not they are racist depends not only on the eye of the beholder, but also on the intentions of the person telling the story. And at the same time, those stereotypes are part of the African American historical culture. Do we want to whitewash their culture because some folks at some point in time looked down on it? Or should historical culture be embraced? Is getting rid of one part of their culture to replace it with another part that also contains stereotypes that are most definitely disparaging of another culture really helping? Have you seen The Princess and the Frog? It's a good story, but the portrayal of the firefly who is cajun doesn't really hold back any punches as far as portraying cajuns as backwoods toothless rednecks.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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14 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I've never seen the cartoon, but I remember growing up we had a book that I think was based on the movie. Yes, there are stereotypes, but many of those stereotypes exist because they wre true. At least with patterns of speech and such. And many of those patterns of speech were the same for folks of all color. Whether or not they are racist depends not only on the eye of the beholder, but also on the intentions of the person telling the story. And at the same time, those stereotypes are part of the African American historical culture. Do we want to whitewash their culture because some folks at some point in time looked down on it? Or should historical culture be embraced? Is getting rid of one part of their culture to replace it with another part that also contains stereotypes that are most definitely disparaging of another culture really helping? Have you seen The Princess and the Frog? It's a good story, but the portrayal of the firefly who is cajun doesn't really hold back any punches as far as portraying cajuns as backwoods toothless rednecks.

100% wrong that the intentions of the person have to be taken into account on whether something is racist or not. You don’t have a right to declare someone non-racist because your (or anyone’s ) intent isn’t self-identified as racist. 

If someone is offended by a joke at work, it doesn’t matter what the person intended it to be offensive. Intention may determine whether the person is fired or not, but it doesn’t change the fact that they shouldn’t have said and shouldn’t say it again.

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NotActuallyALonghorn

NotActuallyALonghorn 4999

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Racism:

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized."

So, I guess we have to look at what prejudice, discrimination, and antagonism mean.

Prejudice:

"preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."

Discrimination:

"the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."

Antagonism:

"active hostility or opposition."

Based on the common reading of all of those definitions, racism requires at least some level of intent to do or mean harm. If the intent is to portray something historical, even if it does conform to stereotypes, then it is not by definition racist. It could very well be found offensive, but that is a different word with a different meaning. When you say that something or someone is racist, that term implies intention, based on the every day use of the english language. To attempt to redefine racism as anything that might be offensive to minorities is itself, by definition, racist, as it is usually directed at white folks. When you try and do that, it sows discontent, which further exacerbates actual racism.

 And stereotypes themselves aren't racist. The southern African American community has a stereotype of being heavily involved with family and community affairs. Most folks would view that as a good thing, yet there are probably some southern African American people who disagree. So does that make it a racist stereotype?

 

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TornACL

TornACL 7792

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All these little token changes are going to happen everywhere because it's easy and makes people feel good, and then when it's time to destroy police unions and rebuild our entire concept of policing, everyone will back down like little bitches and point at all of our new wordplay as examples of how much progress we've made. 

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HiggyBaby

HiggyBaby 2616

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Sadly, not the Onion


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2020/06/29/master-bedroom-is-joining-aunt-jemima-as-a-thing-of-the-past/

‘Master bedroom’ is joining Aunt Jemima as a thing of the past

Real estate agents are dropping the label to avoid alienating clients.

Along with Aunt Jemima and Confederate statues, a familiar feature in real estate advertisements is being retired.

Property agents and multiple listing services are dropping the term “master bedroom” because of potential negative connotations.

The Houston Association of Realtors just made the change, replacing the terms master bedroom and master bathroom with “primary” bedrooms and baths.
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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FedEx, who has the naming rights of the Washington Redskins’ stadium, have asked the team to change their name. Pressure from investors. 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/business/fedex-washington-redskins/index.html

I’ve written it before in this thread but the clocking is ticking for Snyder to change the name. He’s on the wrong side of history now and will look like the fool the longer he waits. If Fedex is receiving investor pressure, then other teams will see something similar from their sponsors. You will see other teams announce that they will not display the name redskins in the scoreboard, it will not be written in the program, the announcers will not speak the name,etc.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

FedEx, who has the naming rights of the Washington Redskins’ stadium, have asked the team to change their name. Pressure from investors. 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/business/fedex-washington-redskins/index.html

I’ve written it before in this thread but the clocking is ticking for Snyder to change the name. He’s on the wrong side of history now and will look like the fool the longer he waits. If Fedex is receiving investor pressure, then other teams will see something similar from their sponsors. You will see other teams announce that they will not display the name redskins in the scoreboard, it will not be written in the program, the announcers will not speak the name,etc.

to add more, the Redskins name will be gone soon based on the following comment. They're giving Snyder a face-saving out so he can collect information. I think he's been told to change it and he doesn't have much of a choice. 

Quote

“In light of recent events around our country and feedback from our community, the Washington Redskins are announcing the team will undergo a thorough review of the team’s name. The review formalizes the initial discussions the team has been having with the league in recent events.

if you want to buy Redskins gear, not that I know why, I would do so soon. I bet its pulled shortly from the NFL store.

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 2:06 PM, TornACL said:

All these little token changes are going to happen everywhere because it's easy and makes people feel good, and then when it's time to destroy police unions and rebuild our entire concept of policing, everyone will back down like little bitches and point at all of our new wordplay as examples of how much progress we've made. 

It’s remarkable to see how fast shit gets done when corporate America feels slightly threatened.  There have been activist groups quietly working for decades on many of the changes we’ve seen over the past month with little no progress. Colin Kapernick can testify to fighting the good fight. 

But when people start burning shit down in the streets and toppling statues, the business executives suddenly grow a conscience, decide to make some overnight changes, and hopefully make a buck off it with the good PR. Boom, done.  

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Underdog

Underdog 29108

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Have long advocated that the Redskins change to the Renegades(if forced to change) and go with this sweet looking helmet.  Of course, they'd have to lose the feathers on it.  IIRC, it was a Lombardi design when he coached at DC. 

s-l1000.jpg

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, I know you don't like capitalism...but it does get shit done when it needs to.  

I like capitalism. I like the idea of a person earning his way in life through competition in a fair market economy.  I like the idea of building wealth and owning property. 

What we have now in the US is an economy of theft where the rules of the market are set by the players that have already won.  It isn’t capitalism when there is no real competition. Our tax dollars are getting funneled straight to the winners.  Lockheed, Boeing, AT&T, Big Pharma, Bezos, Big Oil, and the insurance companies write their own paychecks because they write their own laws through politicians they’ve bought.  It’s a scam and full blown socialism isn’t the answer either but a reckoning is coming.  We are either going to change or we are going to collapse. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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12 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Have long advocated that the Redskins change to the Renegades(if forced to change) and go with this sweet looking helmet.  Of course, they'd have to lose the feathers on it.  IIRC, it was a Lombardi design when he coached at DC. 

s-l1000.jpg

good name change. plus they have a built-in team song from Styx

There are practical obstacles that if Snyder was completely taken off-guard with a name and brand change, they will have to scramble. You don't want to name them the Renegades and then have a change of heart in 1 month. A smart move would be to just remove the team name and announce that you will decide later on the new name. Put a W on the helmet.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Yeah, but "W" is for Washington.  And he owned slaves.  You can't play up the D.C. angle, because Columbus was not only a colonist, but worse---an Italian with a bad sense of directions.  Shouldn't have anything to do with Native Americans obviously.  they're in Maryland, so maybe the Crabs?  But Trump gave Melania crabs from Stormy Daniels so that's too on the nose.  

Maybe combine two themes.  Landover, Maryland is famous for two things---NFL football and the largest wild Terrapin population.  What are Terrapins?  Turtles.  What clever name did Washington, D.C. have for their former baseball team?  The Senators (go Killebrew!).  Who is the most famous Senator right now?-------Mitch McConnell.  What does Mitch look like?-------A Terrapin.  It's a win-win.

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Bama Llama

Bama Llama 1505

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On 6/26/2020 at 12:25 PM, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

[Racism: . . . ]Based on the common reading of all of those definitions, racism requires at least some level of intent to do or mean harm. If the intent is to portray something historical, even if it does conform to stereotypes, then it is not by definition racist. 

So, I can be a 68-year old "white man" (a male with light-colored epidermis directly descended from a homo sapiens who was born in East Africa, as we all were), whose earliest and fondest memory is being three years old sitting on his grandmother's lap in western Alabama listening with rapture to Br'er Rabbit stories, without being deemed a racist?  Excellent.  By the way, she portrayed Br'er Rabbit and Uncle Remus as especially good, positive individuals.  I have always looked up to the Uncle Remus character.  But I am not "black" so I can't have a viable opinion about any BLM issue. But I digress.  I appreciated NotActually's post.  

Let's try the Golden Rule and see how that works.  Stop destroying shit.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31996

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58 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s remarkable to see how fast shit gets done when corporate America feels slightly threatened.  There have been activist groups quietly working for decades on many of the changes we’ve seen over the past month with little no progress. Colin Kapernick can testify to fighting the good fight. 

But when people start burning shit down in the streets and toppling statues, the business executives suddenly grow a conscience, decide to make some overnight changes, and hopefully make a buck off it with the good PR. Boom, done.  

Well that and 10 years can account for a fair amount of turnover and an increased social consciousness in the c-suite and below, where pressure is also likely to be applied.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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There is also protection in knowing that you're not the only person reacting to changing times, and if everyone is reacting and you don't, you're open to more criticism.

Also as more egregious brands are changed, the less egregious one are next up. The Indians, Chiefs and Braves probably felt relatively safe with their names as long as the Redskins were in the game. With the Redskins appearing to be gone, it focuses some attention on whether an ethnic group should be a team mascot or not. Personally I think it's ok if you're using an reasonably accepted name for a group i.e. Fighting Irish.

If you're using an actual group of people as your mascot, you have to understand that as times change, that group may eventually change their view of it and you should respect that. They own their image even at the individual level, not you.

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formermav43

formermav43 4607

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29 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

There is also protection in knowing that you're not the only person reacting to changing times, and if everyone is reacting and you don't, you're open to more criticism.

Also as more egregious brands are changed, the less egregious one are next up. The Indians, Chiefs and Braves probably felt relatively safe with their names as long as the Redskins were in the game. With the Redskins appearing to be gone, it focuses some attention on whether an ethnic group should be a team mascot or not. Personally I think it's ok if you're using an reasonably accepted name for a group i.e. Fighting Irish.

If you're using an actual group of people as your mascot, you have to understand that as times change, that group may eventually change their view of it and you should respect that. They own their image even at the individual level, not you.

I think those are in different categories than Redskins, personally (Chief Wahoo was in the Redskins category too). I’d liken Braves and Chiefs to Trojans, Spartans-even Fighting Irish. The terms aren’t inherently derogatory, and, in fact, are intended to evoke positive associations of a fighting spirit.

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TornACL

TornACL 7792

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

It’s remarkable to see how fast shit gets done when corporate America feels slightly threatened.  There have been activist groups quietly working for decades on many of the changes we’ve seen over the past month with little no progress. Colin Kapernick can testify to fighting the good fight. 

But when people start burning shit down in the streets and toppling statues, the business executives suddenly grow a conscience, decide to make some overnight changes, and hopefully make a buck off it with the good PR. Boom, done.  

Yeah but it's all still just window dressing. None of this shit fucking matters. The name of the Washington football team isn't going to change a single thing about institutionalized racism. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13712

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Posted
40 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I think those are in different categories than Redskins, personally (Chief Wahoo was in the Redskins category too). I’d liken Braves and Chiefs to Trojans, Spartans-even Fighting Irish. The terms aren’t inherently derogatory, and, in fact, are intended to evoke positive associations of a fighting spirit.

Intent has little to nothing to do in the conversation. I don’t believe that the redskins are intending to be derogatory. They believe(d) they are somehow honoring native Americans. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, TornACL said:

Yeah but it's all still just window dressing. None of this shit fucking matters. The name of the Washington football team isn't going to change a single thing about institutionalized racism. 

Neither will removing a statue but it’s a start. Every journey starts with a single step.  Just need to keep stepping to the destination. 

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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tchookem

tchookem 3966

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Posted
Yeah but it's all still just window dressing. None of this shit fucking matters. The name of the Washington football team isn't going to change a single thing about institutionalized racism. 
It's an act of good faith, and good faith is something we're in desperate need of right now.
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G650

G650 14427

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

I think those are in different categories than Redskins, personally (Chief Wahoo was in the Redskins category too). I’d liken Braves and Chiefs to Trojans, Spartans-even Fighting Irish. The terms aren’t inherently derogatory, and, in fact, are intended to evoke positive associations of a fighting spirit.

That's complete garbage. If anything those names are worse. And I say this as a Redskins fan who agrees its time to change the name.

 

Related to the Song of the South conversation earlier, I actually have a copy of it on VHS buried somewhere with Japanese subtitles. My Pap got it from god knows where eons ago.

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F250

F250 29180

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Posted
1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Intent has little to nothing to do in the conversation. I don’t believe that the redskins are intending to be derogatory. They believe(d) they are somehow honoring native Americans. 

I agree that intent doesn't matter but do agree some names are different. The term Redskins is inherently derogatory and the intention of using it as a team name doesn't matter.

Calling a team in San Antonio the Spics is wrong but the Aztecs would be fine.

 

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G650

G650 14427

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Posted
46 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Don’t see how, but ok.

Because it's not as offensive to the majority of Native Americans, that's why. I don't really feel like or have the time for the long drawn out discussion on it, because its a very complex topic, and I pretty much feel all of them need to go at this point. But crap like Chief Wahoo is Amos and Andy blackface level shit and the Redskins name is more like the Uncle Ben on the rice box.

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formermav43

formermav43 4607

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12 minutes ago, G650 said:

Because it's not as offensive to the majority of Native Americans, that's why. I don't really feel like or have the time for the long drawn out discussion on it, because its a very complex topic, and I pretty much feel all of them need to go at this point. But crap like Chief Wahoo is Amos and Andy blackface level shit and the Redskins name is more like the Uncle Ben on the rice box.

Well now I’m a bit confused, because you weren’t talking about Chief Wahoo, you were talking about those other names being worse. And that’s what I responded to.

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G650

G650 14427

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4 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Well now I’m a bit confused, because you weren’t talking about Chief Wahoo, you were talking about those other names being worse. And that’s what I responded to.

They exist somewhere in the middle of Chief Wahoo and the Redskin in terms of Native American offensiveness.

 

Non indigenous tend to equate Redskins with the n word, and it's nothing like that. By and large over the years Native Americans take much greater exception to whitey co opting their imagery and culture such as Chiefs and Braves than the Redskins name.

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