Eyes of Texas

[Bateshorn 9905]

I’m not seeing a Thread about this.  Sorry to pollute this board with football asshattery. 
 

Texas Monthly Article.

I’m of the opinion it should be changed.  I get it’s gonna be a big one,  but I honestly believe listening to the voices of the athletes on the field is where we need to start. 

[Pig Bellmont 8692]

Still better than Boomer Sooner

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Not my place to weigh in on this but from my, at a distance perspective, changing the song seems like a nominal ask considering the climate.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Hugo Stiglitz

[6th Street 6357]

Don't give a shit about the Eyes of Texas. If getting rid of it leads to more wins, I'm all in. Just want to stop getting embarrassed by Baylor and Iowa State. 

[Woland 729]

Tradition is comfortable. Change is inevitable. If now is the time for change, let's embrace it and come up with something better for the next 150 years of The University. The Eyes can remain in our hearts and memories. This is a microcosm of what needs to happen in our country as a whole.

[Mo Horn 8807]

I'm ok changing it, but if we do keep it can we please get people to understand you don't keep the beat with your hook em, except at the end. You just hold your hand high, and still,  until the last phrase. That's the real controversy we should be debating. 😁

[Pasken 1309]

It’s easier to talk about but harder to see. The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

[tantric superman 4667]

Shit, I don't even know the words to the song.  I always just kind of wave my hand drunkenly and go "The Eyes of Texas ya hah ya, hay, nay, ya ha ya hi!"  Is there an allusion to Texas Rangers?

[Bateshorn 9905]

Yiiiiiiiikes

[gmr548 16517]

I get that it's an entrenched tradition abd people are reluctant, or even hostile to changing that. In a perfect world I wouldn't change it either. I didn't have any idea - and I'd bet this applies to most fans/alums - about the history.

I guess what gets me is that people defend keeping it because the contemporary meaning isn't racist and is meant as a song of unity. In reality, that's a defense of yourself, not the song. People want to feel better about themselves for having sung it and wanting to keep it.

Bottom line is if a song meant to unify is aleinating a chunk of the students/alumni, then it isn't doing it's job. If UT's black community is uncomfortable with the song it should go. I don't see how you get around that without some serious mental gymnastics.

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

I’m not seeing a Thread about this.  Sorry to pollute this board with football asshattery. 
 

Texas Monthly Article.

I’m of the opinion it should be changed.  I get it’s gonna be a big one,  but I honestly believe listening to the voices of the athletes on the field is where we need to start. 

Thanks for posting this, hasn't been discussed. You should cross post this in the football forum, I bet it will lead to some healthy and productive conversations.

[Bateshorn 9905]

1 minute ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Thanks for posting this, hasn't been discussed. You should cross post this in the football forum, I bet it will lead to some healthy and productive conversations.

AYFKM?  The football board is an  insane asylum.

[RPM 26229]

Can they change it to Deep in The Heart of Texas? Would that work?

[Red Five 40665]

45 minutes ago, Pasken said:

The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

Serious question: Is this correct? I read awhile back that it was not written specifically for that show, and did not debut there. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

I think I saw where someone said there really isn't any definitive proof that the song was done in blackface, only that it was done during a minstrel show where there were skits done in blackface. I'm not sure we should just toss the baby out with the bathwater, but on the other hand, changing it will force the Aggies to have to change their fight song, which will drive them crazy... 

[Bateshorn 9905]

2 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I think I saw where someone said there really isn't any definitive proof that the song was done in blackface, only that it was done during a minstrel show where there were skits done in blackface. I'm not sure we should just toss the baby out with the bathwater, but on the other hand, changing it will force the Aggies to have to change their fight song, which will drive them crazy... 

The Texas Monthly article definitely places the debut at a minstrel show, but doesn’t know for certain whether the creators were actually in blackface when they performed it, only that it was likely, given the venue. 

[Pasken 1309]

5 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Serious question: Is this correct? I read awhile back that it was not written specifically for that show, and did not debut there. 

This is where I got the info:

 

https://abcnews.go.com/OnCampus/story?id=7160813&page=1

[Stringer 1437]

I love singing it at the end of games with a full stadium, but I don't feel I have a right to something that brings me joy, if in the balance it causes someone else pain.

If it causes pain for the players, get rid of it.

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2630]

54 minutes ago, Pasken said:

It’s easier to talk about but harder to see. The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

I thought it was posted that the cowboys were created years after the song.   Seems like it would be a simple thing to fact-check. 

[Hank Kingsley 20708]

4 minutes ago, Stringer said:

I love singing it at the end of games with a full stadium, but I don't feel I have a right to something that brings me joy, if in the balance it causes someone else pain.

If it causes pain for the players, get rid of it.

It's a simple as this. Get rid of it. It's the right thing to do.

And if you want to be selfish about it, getting ahead of other universities on these issues will benefit the athletic program as well. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

7 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The Texas Monthly article definitely places the debut at a minstrel show, but doesn’t know for certain whether the creators were actually in blackface when they performed it, only that it was likely, given the venue. 

Someone said in the other thread that the skit was about an Aggie visiting the President of UT, or something like that. Given that there probably weren't any black folks attending either university or in their administrations it seems plausible that the skit didn't include any blackface.

[Bateshorn 9905]

I saw somewhere else that the optics on this are terrible. The commentators are going to be talking about it after the games, players are going to walk off the field, teams are going to use it to recruit against us.  
 

it’s probably done.  It’s just a matter of how it gets resolved. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

No argument there. I'm not actually a Longhorn, so I really don't have a dog in this fight.

[Biff Tannen 45499]

[Brisketexan 104628]

Do I care?  Yeah.  When the tune starts, I'm stirred.  We sang it at my wedding, and many of my friends' weddings.  And I always took the meaning as it is worded -- that the eyes of the University were on us, and we should be mindful of acquitting ourselves well and doing right by the University and the state.

But we damned well have to hear about the real perception and takes of the athletes who play under our banner.  My hope?  That somehow, the song can be re-claimed -- even modified.  Someone suggested the lyrical change to "The eyes of Texas are upon US," to better reflect the message that I always understood, and to take away any sinister overtone.  I don't know if that would do it.  But some members of our university community say the song as it stands is hurtful, they state a case with some merit, and they'd like to have a conversation.  So we need to do that.  And what will come of that is what will come.  

If we lose the song, I'll be sad.  And if we do, I hope that whatever we do in substitute helps build a new tradition, something that every student and alumnus of the university helped create TOGETHER.

[Degenerate Gardner 4081]

Changing it to this might satisfy both sides. 

Well, except for Ice Cube.

 

 

[Bateshorn 9905]

Honestly, right now I’d prefer this:

 

 

 

[hpslugga 4044]

My alma mater had to change a LOT more of its traditions than merely its school song back in 2004, and we’re perfectly fine with those changes. I really don’t see what the problem is if enough students no longer wish it to be a part of the culture. 

[Red Five 40665]

I'm thinking the old guys who write the big checks won't be on board. At all. 

[workswithseed 2037]

1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

Shit, I don't even know the words to the song.  I always just kind of wave my hand drunkenly and go "The Eyes of Texas ya hah ya, hay, nay, ya ha ya hi!"  Is there an allusion to Texas Rangers?

No, they still haven't won the World Series.

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Do I care?  Yeah.  When the tune starts, I'm stirred.  We sang it at my wedding, and many of my friends' weddings.  And I always took the meaning as it is worded -- that the eyes of the University were on us, and we should be mindful of acquitting ourselves well and doing right by the University and the state.

But we damned well have to hear about the real perception and takes of the athletes who play under our banner.  My hope?  That somehow, the song can be re-claimed -- even modified.  Someone suggested the lyrical change to "The eyes of Texas are upon US," to better reflect the message that I always understood, and to take away any sinister overtone.  I don't know if that would do it.  But some members of our university community say the song as it stands is hurtful, they state a case with some merit, and they'd like to have a conversation.  So we need to do that.  And what will come of that is what will come.  

If we lose the song, I'll be sad.  And if we do, I hope that whatever we do in substitute helps build a new tradition, something that every student and alumnus of the university helped create TOGETHER.

All this. I hate to lose it, but it isn't worth the pain and micro-aggression's it generates for our students and the athletes we are there to celebrate. This is the first song my son learned to sing and still will randomly belt it out around the house. 

[fuggled 576]

Overall, I agree with @Brisketexan on this.  There should be discussion, we should listen and I hope we can keep the song.  I also had the realization that the song isn't a tradition because the University admin decided it should be.  It's a tradition because it resonated with students and they adopted it and carried it forward.  If what resonates with students changes and evolves, maybe I shouldn't have so much of a say as an alum.

Anyway, reposting this from the football board:

Some people have said The Eyes was written for a minstrel show.  I don't know if that's accurate and I agree with the "historical audit" I heard CDC suggest.

According to at least one narrative, Johnson (the minstrel director) had been trying to have a school song created for more than a year.  In addition to the minstrel shows, Johnson organized "Promenade Concerts" where the band would wander campus, playing songs from other colleges but not having anything to perform specific to Texas.  He contacted alumni to get involved but didn't make progress.  He then reached out to John Sinclair for help with the song.  He composed his first attempt in 1902, but didn't love it.  A year later he wrote The Eyes. 

Quote

He first contacted alumni known to have literary talent, and hoped to recruit a volunteer to write a UT song, but received only polite refusals. Not one to give up easily, Johnson turned to his fellow students, specifically to fellow band member John Lang Sinclair. Sinclair was an editor of the Cactus yearbook, a regular contributor to the University of Texas Literary Magazine, and was widely known as the campus poet. Sinclair resisted at first, but Johnson continued to pester.

https://jimnicar.com/ut-traditions/the-eyes-of-texas/

So, it's equally likely that the song was originally written for the purpose of giving the University a song it could call its own with a distinct Texas identity.  This could be true even though the song was regrettably premiered at a minstrel show.  Do I know this with 100% certainty?  No, of course not.  I can't interpret the intentions of college kids from over 100 years ago and neither can anyone else.  That's why you should be very careful about attributing purpose and intent to individuals who aren't here to speak for themselves.

Additionally, there's another tradition dating back to these minstrel shows that I haven't seen discussed.  The Varsity Band performed a lot of songs at these shows.  The Varsity Band would go on to become what is today known as Longhorn Band.  Would you argue Longhorn Band is a racist organization that doesn't have a place at the University today?  Should it be defunded and dissolved?  I would be very surprised if you said "yes."  So, why is it different? 

At least in my mind, we can't condemn today's Longhorn Band for the inappropriate behavior of these early members.  Because when there's an illness, you treat the cause, you don't execute the patient.  The cancer was racist individuals, blackface and minstrel shows.  Not The Eyes itself.

John Fleming, the first black drum major of Longhorn Band, said it even best:

Quote

Is it really the song they're boycotting, or are they boycotting the people and what they represented when it was performed at a minstrel show?

https://abcnews.go.com/OnCampus/story?id=7160813&page=1

[Hornius Emeritus 12420]

1 hour ago, Pasken said:

It’s easier to talk about but harder to see. The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

LOL. No.  The Eyes of Texas was born in 1903. Those bobby-soxers are from the 1950s. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

1 hour ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

I think I saw where someone said there really isn't any definitive proof that the song was done in blackface, only that it was done during a minstrel show where there were skits done in blackface. I'm not sure we should just toss the baby out with the bathwater, but on the other hand, changing it will force the Aggies to have to change their fight song, which will drive them crazy... 

I believe that's accurate.  I do not know whether a minstrel show is or was entirely in blackface or "just" included certain acts in blackface.  I don't think anyone else does either.

There is also some mixture of association of the Cowboy's minstrel show with whatever existed in 1903, which is impossible because the Cowboys weren't founded until 1922.

I still tend to believe that The Eyes is entirely devoid of racial content (certainly) and mostly devoid of implication or relationship (arguable) and it's something that the players and protesters were spoon fed.  It seems to me to be a manufactured outrage.  The rest of it (statues, buildings, etc.) is not.  They aren't even slightly comparable, in my opinion.

Edited June 18, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Brisketexan 104628]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I believe that's accurate.  I do not know whether a minstrel show is or was entirely in blackface or "just" included certain acts in blackface.  I don't think anyone else does either.

There is also some mixture of association of the Cowboy's minstrel show with whatever existed in 1903, which is impossible because the Cowboys weren't founded until 1922.

I still tend to believe that The Eyes is entirely devoid of racial content (certainly) and mostly devoid of implication or relationship (arguable) and it's something that the players and protesters were spoon fed.  It seems to me to be a manufactured outrage.  The rest of it (statues, buildings, etc.) is not.  They aren't even slightly comparable, in my opinion.

I agree with this.  BUT....whether it was spoonfed to them or not, our black athletes sure do have that perception.  So, a conversation definitely needs to happen.  I would hope that a full contextual discussion can happen, with a goal of making a decision that all parties agree is befitting of the university and an inclusive and proud tradition that can go the distance.  Thus, my idea of changing an important word, and reclaiming the song for all of us.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

I think the history of it is so uncertain that the idea of conducting a "historical audit" has a lot of merit.

I myself am skeptical of the maximalist accusation--i.e., that The Eyes of Texas was written specifically for a minstrel show to be performed in blackface.  If you're at all familiar with such shows, you recognize that it doesn't fit with the genre.  

Sings that were performed in blackface had overt racial meanings.  The crowd wouldn't have found it funny to have someone up there in blackface singing a random song.  It's a non sequitur.  So instead you got songs like That's Why Darkies Were Born and Pickaninny Heaven.

For that reason, I find it much more likely that The Eyes of Texas was written separately, or perhaps written for a show that had some blackface skits but was not itself performed during those skits.

But I could be wrong on that.  And recognizing that, I'd like to hear more on the subject.

And regardless of the historical facts, I'm interested in hearing more about our student-athletes' thoughts on what The University generally, and the athletic department specifically, can do to be more inclusive.  Because this is the headline-grabbing demand.  But they have a lot other suggestions with which I agree wholeheartedly without needing to know more.  And I don't think this demand should stand in the way of meeting those other demands.  

[Underdog 28457]

1 hour ago, RPM said:

Can they change it to Deep in The Heart of Texas? Would that work?

[6th Street 6357]

Changing or ridding ourselves of The Eyes could also have a positive impact on recruiting, where we have been losing significant ground to the elite programs like Clemson, LSU, and Alabama.

[Bateshorn 9905]

Saying somebody is "spoonfed" controversy when they are upset about something is exactly the dismissive patriarchal attitude that got us into this mess we are in right now.  Insinuating people should get over it is both reductive and insulting.

The players have a voice and a right to use it.  They are grown ass men with agency. 

 

Again, unless the University is willing to go on full blown media campaign to exculpate the song, and convince the world, then this is really moot.  The optics suck and unless you want to hear Herbstreit calling us racist every Saturday, it's going to get changed or eliminated.  I've worked in politics for almost 25 years.  The simpler the slogan and campaign, the more effective. If you are arguing what is and what is not a minstrel show, and whether it was originally performed in black face, you've lost the argument.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Bateshorn

[TwiceHorn 31283]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I think the history of it is so uncertain that the idea of conducting a "historical audit" has a lot of merit.

I myself am skeptical of the maximalist accusation--i.e., that The Eyes of Texas was written specifically for a minstrel show to be performed in blackface.  If you're at all familiar with such shows, you recognize that it doesn't fit with the genre.  

Sings that were performed in blackface had overt racial meanings.  The crowd wouldn't have found it funny to have someone up there in blackface singing a random song.  It's a non sequitur.  So instead you got songs like That's Why Darkies Were Born and Pickaninny Heaven.

For that reason, I find it much more likely that The Eyes of Texas was written separately, or perhaps written for a show that had some blackface skits but was not itself performed during those skits.

But I could be wrong on that.  And recognizing that, I'd like to hear more on the subject.

And regardless of the historical facts, I'm interested in hearing more about our student-athletes' thoughts on what The University generally, and the athletic department specifically, can do to be more inclusive.  Because this is the headline-grabbing demand.  But they have a lot other suggestions with which I agree wholeheartedly without needing to know more.  And I don't think this demand should stand in the way of meeting those other demands.  

Yep.  I have thought about it for a week or so now and haven't really changed my mind.  I tend to "dead reckon" what you say about its context within the minstrel show.  It seems exceedingly odd that a song that either parodies the president of the University, or is aspirational, would be sung in blackface at a time when there were no students of color on campus.

There is some evidence in the historical record that the song was written in at least partial response to call for a replacement for Jolly Students of Texas, also written by SInclair.

I think the real history of it is basically unknowable.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

2 hours ago, Pasken said:

It’s easier to talk about but harder to see. The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

 

18 minutes ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

LOL. No.  The Eyes of Texas was born in 1903. Those bobby-soxers are from the 1950s. 

I don't think the claim is that  this is a photo from the actual show where it was performed for the first time. But if this is a photo from the 50s, it would seem like a decent chance the Eyes were sung here as well.  a quick google search says this event was held as late as 1964.

This is a tough call but probably necessary if we're alienating many students or alumni, even if they're learning of this history now too. And white people have to understand that we aren't the ones that get to decide what is racist to an African-American. Is there a reasonable test? Yes to some extent. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

5 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Saying somebody is "spoonfed" controversy when they are upset about something is exactly the dismissive patriarchal attitude that got us into this mess we are in right now.  Insinuating people should get over it is both reductive and insulting.

The players have a voice and a right to use it.  They are grown ass men with agency. 

If they are grown men then they should act like it and use some critical thinking. If they haven't actually taken the time time to think it through or ask whether or not what they were told is accurate, then spoon fed is an appropriate term.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

14 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Saying somebody is "spoonfed" controversy when they are upset about something is exactly the dismissive patriarchal attitude that got us into this mess we are in right now.  Insinuating people should get over it is both reductive and insulting.

The players have a voice and a right to use it.  They are grown ass men with agency. 

 

Again, unless the University is willing to go on full blown media campaign to exculpate the song, and convince the world, then this is really moot.  The optics suck and unless you want to hear Herbstreit calling us racist every Saturday, it's going to get changed or eliminated.  I've worked in politics for almost 25 years.  The simpler the slogan and campaign, the more effective. If you are arguing what is and what is not a minstrel show, and whether it was originally performed in black face, you've lost the argument.

I get it.  I'm not wholly comfortable with saying what I'm saying.  I don't really like using the terms "spoon fed" or "manufactured outrage," but I can't escape it.

But I'm not comfortable with tossing a century-plus old tradition that has no facial connection to racism whatsoever.

I'm not arguing in favor of minstrelsy in any way, shape, or form.  I'm just not convinced of an insidious connection to it.  As GoLL says, that's a "maximalist" interpretation.

There is a point at which an unfettered and unquestioned right to declare things racist becomes a reductio ad absurdum.

Edited June 18, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Bateshorn 9905]

3 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

If they are grown men then they should act like it and use some critical thinking. If they haven't actually taken the time time to think it through or ask whether or not what they were told is accurate, then spoon fed is an appropriate term.

This is horribly insulting.  You are basically telling a black person that they don't have a right to decide what is racist.

[bolverk 29402]

This truly saddens me.

While I got my undergrad at Tech, I did earn my master's at UT during the late 1990s and have adopted at the school I most identify with as I grew up being more a fan of Texas. During my brief two years on campus, the story I was told was that the origin of the Eyes of Texas were a mocking tribute to some prudish dean that was always on the watch for campus misbehavior and sexual shenanigans between male and female students.

I had no idea of the minstrel show aspect to the song nor its connection to Robert E. Lee's the Eyes of the South expression, which I'd never heard of. Man, I'd really hate to see it go and it would hurt. Having said that, it sounds like keeping it would be even more painful to our Black students.

[Bateshorn 9905]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

I get it.  I'm not wholly comfortable with saying what I'm saying.  

But I'm not comfortable with tossing a century-plus old tradition that has no facial connection to racism whatsoever.

I'm not arguing in favor of minstrelsy in any way, shape, or form.  I'm just not convinced of an insidious connection to it.  As GoLL says, that's a "maximalist" interpretation.

I totally understand.  The history here is absolutely murky AF.  This is not a cut and dry issue like Littlefield, or removing a Lee statute. But when you find yourself arguing complicated details during an issue this fraught and charged, and the issue on the line is relatively minor (keep or get rid of a school song), you are almost certainly going to end up on the losing end of the argument eventually.

[Goredho 17349]

As long as they don't fill the time reserved for The Eyes with more cheesy jumbotron minotaur animations, I don't give a shit.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4968]

3 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

This is horribly insulting.  You are basically telling a black person that they don't have a right to decide what is racist.

No, I am saying that it's not OK to just arbitrarily decide something is racist without evidence. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

I totally understand.  The history here is absolutely murky AF.  This is not a cut and dry issue like Littlefield, or removing a Lee statute. But when you find yourself arguing complicated details during an issue this fraught and charged, and the issue on the line is relatively minor (keep or get rid of a school song), you are almost certainly going to end up on the losing end of the argument eventually.

#Bothsides of the issue are arguing fraught details, I think.  That's why I find it kind of objectionable.

I don't know.

[Wanker Bob 379]

You can literally de-racist any perceived or real racist implication of the song by simply changing the word "you" to "us" anywhere it appears in the song. If all the white people are saying us it includes them too so no longer can be perceived to be towards a 3rd party which could be slaves or whatever. 

I think this can be smoothed over by doing things that should be done (removing known racists names from parts of campus) and conceding to change the song to remove any possible perceived racist slant with a full explanation and cooperation of the minorities on campus.