Eyes of Texas

[Ghost of LL 15698]

25 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Saying somebody is "spoonfed" controversy when they are upset about something is exactly the dismissive patriarchal attitude that got us into this mess we are in right now.  Insinuating people should get over it is both reductive and insulting.

The players have a voice and a right to use it.  They are grown ass men with agency. 

 

Again, unless the University is willing to go on full blown media campaign to exculpate the song, and convince the world, then this is really moot.  The optics suck and unless you want to hear Herbstreit calling us racist every Saturday, it's going to get changed or eliminated.  I've worked in politics for almost 25 years.  The simpler the slogan and campaign, the more effective. If you are arguing what is and what is not a minstrel show, and whether it was originally performed in black face, you've lost the argument.

Without disagreeing with the substance of what you're saying, I reject the notion that we should get rid of a song that has been our alma mater for more than a century simply because "that's racist" is a simpler slogan.

I'm not even sure that a majority of our black students and alumni even share that opinion.  I know some current and former football players have that opinion.  I just don't know how widespread it is.

[TwiceHorn 32082]

Maybe some clever someone can add a verse to it that makes it overtly inclusive.

I am totally down with that idea.

[Dnaguy 12632]

Compromise:

The Pride of Texas

The Pride of Texas is upon you,
All the livelong day.
The Pride of Texas is upon you,
You cannot get away.
Do not think you can escape it
At night or early in the morn --
The Pride of Texas are upon you
Time to Hook'em Horns!

[BrazilHorn 6847]

Just drop the song. While it is a cool tradition it isn't worth alienating the team(s) over.

Plenty of traditions through the years have been added & dropped.

[Dnaguy 12632]

Or maybe.....

The Size of Texas is upon you,
All the livelong day.
The Size of Texas is upon you,
You cannot get away.
Do not think you can escape it
At night or early in the morn --
The Size of Texas are upon you
Til Gabriel blows .....

 

NM.

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Dnaguy

[Bateshorn 9991]

It may be fixable by changing the words.  I think you have to do it with the buy in of the minority student body reps and the players. 

 

[TexArcher 39074]

The girth of Texas is upon you...

[gmr548 16702]

The Pride of Texas are upon you

Are you referring to the famed fuck lions?

[Bateshorn 9991]

3 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

Or maybe.....

The Size of Texas is upon you,
All the livelong day.
The Size of Texas is upon you,
You cannot get away.
Do not think you can escape it
At night or early in the morn --
The Size of Texas are upon you
Til Gabriel blows .....

 

NM.

 

[David Dennison 19544]

29 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

No, I am saying that it's not OK to just arbitrarily decide something is racist without evidence. 

There is ample evidence that singing the Eyes of Texas at university functions has racist origins.

Edited June 18, 2020 by David Dennison

[Brisketexan 106913]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

It may be fixable by changing the words.  I think you have to do it with the buy in of the minority student body reps and the players. 

 

This.  Any resolution would have to be an agreed resolution with buy-in.

[burntorangebongos 10826]

When I originally read the tweet, I saw this last request of the eyes as a brilliant negotiating tactic to get the other demands accomplished. Remember when it wasnt that long ago that they wanted to get Simkins renamed since he was in the KKK? I think they said no but then changed it finally. This time has come to give in to the other requests and come to an agreement about the song. It will suck to lose it but if we can come to an agreement with all the stakeholders, maybe we can compromise. It is probably why this got added to the list because it is a powerful request. We all love singing the Eyes after a fucking win with the team. It was a smart request and i vote for giving them all the other demands right away. 

[Red Five 41742]

I thought the issue was the location in which the song was played in 1903. What's the issue with the lyrics themselves? 

[fuggled 576]

21 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

You can literally de-racist any perceived or real racist implication of the song by simply changing the word "you" to "us" anywhere it appears in the song. If all the white people are saying us it includes them too so no longer can be perceived to be towards a 3rd party which could be slaves or whatever. 

I think this can be smoothed over by doing things that should be done (removing known racists names from parts of campus) and conceding to change the song to remove any possible perceived racist slant with a full explanation and cooperation of the minorities on campus. 

Do not think us can escape them?

You write bad and should feel bad.

[fuggled 576]

Dup

Edited June 18, 2020 by fuggled

[David Dennison 19544]

1 minute ago, burntorangebongos said:

When I originally read the tweet, I saw this last request of the eyes as a brilliant negotiating tactic to get the other demands accomplished. Remember when it wasnt that long ago that they wanted to get Simkins renamed since he was in the KKK? I think they said no but then changed it finally. This time has come to give in to the other requests and come to an agreement about the song. It will suck to lose it but if we can come to an agreement with all the stakeholders, maybe we can compromise. It is probably why this got added to the list because it is a powerful request. We all love singing the Eyes after a fucking win with the team. It was a smart request and i vote for giving them all the other demands right away. 

I have a feeling this is becoming a sticking point with many of the athletes. I think they really want it to go. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13733]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Without disagreeing with the substance of what you're saying, I reject the notion that we should get rid of a song that has been our alma mater for more than a century simply because "that's racist" is a simpler slogan.

I'm not even sure that a majority of our black students and alumni even share that opinion.  I know some current and former football players have that opinion.  I just don't know how widespread it is.

Without a doubt some level of reasonableness should be applied when labeling something racist or deciding on a reaction to it. I don't know who gets to make that decision but also doing nothing is basically a decision as well.

As far as my comment as reasonableness, here's an example: the Student Union apparently hosted the Cowboy Minstrel shows. It also hosted MLK in the early 60s, quite possibly in the same room, but doubtfully at the same time. Would it be reasonable to request we tear down a building that hosted a racist event? I don't think so but someone that makes that request should be able to voice that opinion without everyone getting upset.

 

[Brisketexan 106913]

21 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

You can literally de-racist any perceived or real racist implication of the song by simply changing the word "you" to "us" anywhere it appears in the song. If all the white people are saying us it includes them too so no longer can be perceived to be towards a 3rd party which could be slaves or whatever. 

I think this can be smoothed over by doing things that should be done (removing known racists names from parts of campus) and conceding to change the song to remove any possible perceived racist slant with a full explanation and cooperation of the minorities on campus. 

This.  AND, what would go a long way would be for the university/administration to come up with some OTHER remedial ideas on its own that would benefit the state and its minority population as a whole.

UT should take this opportunity to treat its black athletes like the leaders they are trying to be.  That means working in partnership with them for common goals.  They sat down at the table and demanded to be heard.  Let's sit down with them, and go all-in.  Can we work on ways to build a new model -- a University of the First Class that makes a bona fide effort to ensure that historically marginalized populations are lifted up and become success stories and leaders in our state?  If you'd like a solid example of "what starts here, changes the world," that would be it.

 

[TexArcher 39074]

2 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

It may be fixable by changing the words.  I think you have to do it with the buy in of the minority student body reps and the players. 

 

So I thought the issue was the alleged inclusion in a minstrel show?

What is the problem with the lyrics?  Do black people feel the song is pointed at them in a threatening or demeaning way? 

I've got to say that this does indeed feel manufactured.  I'm all for removing statues and renaming buildings.  I never understood why that crap was allowed on a college campus.  But this one, yeah, it feels really contrived.  I started at UT 26 years ago and this is the first I've heard of any of this.

 

[Wanker Bob 379]

9 minutes ago, fuggled said:

Do not think us can escape them?

You write bad and should feel bad.

Change that one too we when appropriate

[Dnaguy 12632]

1 minute ago, TexArcher said:

So I thought the issue was the alleged inclusion in a minstrel show?

What is the problem with the lyrics?  Do black people feel the song is pointed at them in a threatening or demeaning way? 

I've got to say that this does indeed feel manufactured.  I'm all for removing statues and renaming buildings.  I never understood why that crap was allowed on a college campus.  But this one, yeah, it feels really contrived.  I started at UT 26 years ago and this is the first I've heard of any of this.

 

 

Per the article from Texas Monthly:

To trace the history of the tune, you must go back to the late 1860s, when William Prather was a law student at Washington College in Virginia (now called Washington and Lee University). Robert E. Lee was the university president and would frequently remind students that “the eyes of the South are upon you.” According to Dr. Edmund T. Gordon, a professor of African and African Diaspora Studies and Anthropology at UT, the saying was Lee’s way of reminding students to work hard and to uphold Southern traditions.

The saying stuck with Prather as he became a lawyer and then eventually a UT regent. By 1899, he was named president of the university and delivered an address to students on the first day of school. According to a 1926 Dallas Morning News column remembering her father, Prather’s daughter said the crowd roared when the president said: “I would like to paraphrase [Lee’s] utterance, and say to you, ‘Forward, young men and women of the University, the eyes of Texas are upon you!” From then on, it became Prather’s catchphrase. His daughter recalled one instance when students were waiting to hear the president speak. “Bet you a quarter he says ‘eyes of Texas’ before he gets through,” one student said to another. He won the quarter.

In 1902, a UT student named Lewis Johnson made it his personal mission to create a school song. He played tuba in the band, directed the school choir, and began something called Promenade Concerts, where the marching band would move through campus playing overtures and marches by John Philip Sousa. It bothered him that they played other schools’ songs, like “Fair Harvard.” He wanted a tune to call Texas’s own, but didn’t know how to write the lyrics.

He approached his classmate John L. Sinclair, the editor of the yearbook. Together, Johnson and Sinclair wrote a song titled “Jolly Students of Varsity,” but it wasn’t quite what they wanted, so they shelved the idea. Nearly a year later, Johnson was standing in line at the post office when Sinclair ran up to him and handed him a scrap of paper torn from a bundle of groceries. He’d had a flash of inspiration, he said. Scribbled on the paper, he had written a poem:

They watch above you all the day, the bright blue eyes of Texas. At midnight they’re with you all the way, the sleepless eyes of Texas. The eyes of Texas are upon you, all the livelong day. The eyes of Texas are upon you. They’re with you all the way. They watch you through the peaceful night. They watch you in the early dawn, when from the eastern skies the high light, tells that the night is gone. Sing me a song of Texas, and Texas’ myriad eyes. Countless as the bright stars, that fill the midnight skies. Vandyke brown, vermillion, sepia, Prussian blue, Ivory black and crimson lac, and eyes of every hue.

The two students decided to tweak the lyrics to more explicitly pay homage to Prather’s catchphrase. Johnson suggested that they set the lyrics to the tune of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad,” and they eyed an annual campus minstrel show on May 12, 1903, as the right time to debut it, since there would be a large audience, including President Prather. These minstrel shows, which went on until the sixties, were fund-raisers organized by students and featured white performers singing and dancing in blackface. 

The “Varsity quartet,” with Johnson on tuba and Sinclair on banjo, performed after the school choir, in the middle of the show. According to Gordon, it’s likely that the men donned blackface onstage as they performed the song. Their performance was a hit, and the crowd demanded that they play the song again and again. The very next day, on one of Johnson’s Promenade Concerts, the band marched through campus playing the song while students sang along. That fall, during UT’s annual bout with Texas A&M, the Aggies were driving late in the fourth quarter when they took a timeout. A student started singing the words, and soon, hundreds of others at Clark Field were joining in. A tradition was born, and “The Eyes of Texas” eventually became ingrained into Longhorn student life.

 

[Bateshorn 9991]

6 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

So I thought the issue was the alleged inclusion in a minstrel show?

What is the problem with the lyrics?  Do black people feel the song is pointed at them in a threatening or demeaning way? 

I've got to say that this does indeed feel manufactured.  I'm all for removing statues and renaming buildings.  I never understood why that crap was allowed on a college campus.  But this one, yeah, it feels really contrived.  I started at UT 26 years ago and this is the first I've heard of any of this.

 

It's the first  most of us have heard of it.  But we are in listening mode right now, and that means as white people, putting aside the historical tendency to waive stuff off for (insert X) reason.

[TXSG8R 3362]

10 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

So I thought the issue was the alleged inclusion in a minstrel show?

What is the problem with the lyrics?  Do black people feel the song is pointed at them in a threatening or demeaning way? 

I've got to say that this does indeed feel manufactured.  I'm all for removing statues and renaming buildings.  I never understood why that crap was allowed on a college campus.  But this one, yeah, it feels really contrived.  I started at UT 26 years ago and this is the first I've heard of any of this.

 

Quote

To trace the history of the tune, you must go back to the late 1860s, when William Prather was a law student at Washington College in Virginia (now called Washington and Lee University). Robert E. Lee was the university president and would frequently remind students that “the eyes of the South are upon you.” According to Dr. Edmund T. Gordon, a professor of African and African Diaspora Studies and Anthropology at UT, the saying was Lee’s way of reminding students to work hard and to uphold Southern traditions.

The saying stuck with Prather as he became a lawyer and then eventually a UT regent. By 1899, he was named president of the university and delivered an address to students on the first day of school. According to a 1926 Dallas Morning News column remembering her father, Prather’s daughter said the crowd roared when the president said: “I would like to paraphrase [Lee’s] utterance, and say to you, ‘Forward, young men and women of the University, the eyes of Texas are upon you!” From then on, it became Prather’s catchphrase. His daughter recalled one instance when students were waiting to hear the president speak. “Bet you a quarter he says ‘eyes of Texas’ before he gets through,” one student said to another. He won the quarter.

In 1902, a UT student named Lewis Johnson made it his personal mission to create a school song. He played tuba in the band, directed the school choir, and began something called Promenade Concerts, where the marching band would move through campus playing overtures and marches by John Philip Sousa. It bothered him that they played other schools’ songs, like “Fair Harvard.” He wanted a tune to call Texas’s own, but didn’t know how to write the lyrics.

He approached his classmate John L. Sinclair, the editor of the yearbook. Together, Johnson and Sinclair wrote a song titled “Jolly Students of Varsity,” but it wasn’t quite what they wanted, so they shelved the idea. Nearly a year later, Johnson was standing in line at the post office when Sinclair ran up to him and handed him a scrap of paper torn from a bundle of groceries. He’d had a flash of inspiration, he said. Scribbled on the paper, he had written a poem:

They watch above you all the day, the bright blue eyes of Texas. At midnight they’re with you all the way, the sleepless eyes of Texas. The eyes of Texas are upon you, all the livelong day. The eyes of Texas are upon you. They’re with you all the way. They watch you through the peaceful night. They watch you in the early dawn, when from the eastern skies the high light, tells that the night is gone. Sing me a song of Texas, and Texas’ myriad eyes. Countless as the bright stars, that fill the midnight skies. Vandyke brown, vermillion, sepia, Prussian blue, Ivory black and crimson lac, and eyes of every hue.

The two students decided to tweak the lyrics to more explicitly pay homage to Prather’s catchphrase. Johnson suggested that they set the lyrics to the tune of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad,” and they eyed an annual campus minstrel show on May 12, 1903, as the right time to debut it, since there would be a large audience, including President Prather. These minstrel shows, which went on until the sixties, were fund-raisers organized by students and featured white performers singing and dancing in blackface. 

The “Varsity quartet,” with Johnson on tuba and Sinclair on banjo, performed after the school choir, in the middle of the show. According to Gordon, it’s likely that the men donned blackface onstage as they performed the song. Their performance was a hit, and the crowd demanded that they play the song again and again. The very next day, on one of Johnson’s Promenade Concerts, the band marched through campus playing the song while students sang along. That fall, during UT’s annual bout with Texas A&M, the Aggies were driving late in the fourth quarter when they took a timeout. A student started singing the words, and soon, hundreds of others at Clark Field were joining in. A tradition was born, and “The Eyes of Texas” eventually became ingrained into Longhorn student life.

https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-culture/ut-austin-eyes-of-texas-song-racist/

 

EDIT:  DNAguy beat me to it.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by TXSG8R

[TexArcher 39074]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

It's the first  most of us have heard of it.  But we are in listening mode right now, and that means as white people, putting aside the historical tendency to waive stuff off for (insert X) reason.

Yeah, I'm good with that.  If people have actually been upset about it or uncomfortable with it all this time, then it's good that it's coming out.

I have fond memories over a lot of years with that song, but my level of caring about keeping it is about a 2.  If other people feel closer to a 10 about getting rid of it, then fine.

Willie Nelson and Black Pumas should collaborate on the replacement.  A white dude, a black dude, and a Latino, and it'll be great.

[henrygandorf 29227]

if the players (and future players) want it changed, then change it. who cares what the donors or fans have to say?

fans like wins, they’ll adjust. 

[Amos Moses 795]

1 hour ago, 6th Street said:

Changing or ridding ourselves of The Eyes could also have a positive impact on recruiting, where we have been losing significant ground to the elite programs like Clemson, LSU, and Alabama.

Is this a bit you’re doing?  If not your takes continue to be so fucking stupid it’s mind bottling.

[burntorangebongos 10826]

26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I have a feeling this is becoming a sticking point with many of the athletes. I think they really want it to go. 

Maybe but then why throw in to at least not make them sing it if it is kept? That is a signal that they are willing to compromise on this if things are negotiated in good faith. If the racist building names and statues are removed, that is a good signal that the University is listening and wanting to foster a more inclusive environment. I see that as a thing I can be proud of my University for doing. The song is in our hearts, but we need to look at it and de-racist it if we can. It may have come from a bad beginning but none of us really knew or understood that and no one ever meant to say the words to be hurtful. I think the student athletes will concede that much. 

[Mole 4343]

48 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

Change that one too we when appropriate

You still right bad.

[Ghost of LL 15698]

51 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  AND, what would go a long way would be for the university/administration to come up with some OTHER remedial ideas on its own that would benefit the state and its minority population as a whole.

UT should take this opportunity to treat its black athletes like the leaders they are trying to be.  That means working in partnership with them for common goals.  They sat down at the table and demanded to be heard.  Let's sit down with them, and go all-in.  Can we work on ways to build a new model -- a University of the First Class that makes a bona fide effort to ensure that historically marginalized populations are lifted up and become success stories and leaders in our state?  If you'd like a solid example of "what starts here, changes the world," that would be it.

 

I think listening needs to happen all the way around.

Let's be real honest about the Cloak Room--this group is a lot more liberal and "woke" than our State, our fanbase, and our alumni.  Just look over at the discussion on the Football Board or on Twitter to see that confirmed.  

But even so, I don't think that our fanbase or alumni tend to be racist.  If this were an overtly racist song, it would've been gone decades ago.  If this were My Old Kentucky Home, we wouldn't have just changed a few words.  We would have ditched the song.

And I think recognizing that is part of what makes this so viscerally objectionable for a lot of people.  For generations, we've sung The Eyes of Texas at weddings and at funerals.  We've sung it to our kids in their nurseries as a lullaby.  And now you're telling me that it's a racist song?

And implicit in that is an accusation.  There's an underlying accusation that one who sings a racist song is a racist.  "Oh, but I didn't know it was a racist song;" well, maybe you should've.

So if we're going to have any progress on this issue, we need to start with that.  There needs to be some recognition on some basic starting points.  (1) The song debuted at a plainly racist event, but (2) people singing it today do not do so with any racial animus.

Only if we start with those basic points--and acknowledge those basic points--are we going to have any shot at a constructive discussion.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13733]

Not defending anyone or anything, but part of the controversy of the Eyes is that is related to something that Robert E Lee said and one can only assume what he meant by it.

Quote

According to Dr. Edmund T. Gordon, a professor of African and African Diaspora Studies and Anthropology at UT, the saying was Lee’s way of reminding students to work hard and to uphold Southern traditions.

I don't know if any and everything Lee ever said automatically makes it racist.  Also this professor is making an assumption Lee meant something by the statement. Someone also could assume that Lee meant something else not as sinister. Who knows.

Ultimately there was so much evil with the Confederacy that it can't be an unemotional topic where only logic applies. 

[TXSG8R 3362]

https://www.onlygators.com/06/18/2020/florida-gators-to-discontinue-gator-bait-cheer-despite-no-evidence-of-direct-racial-ties/

What starts here changes the world.  I think you're going to see a lot of schools flushing anything that remotely has any ties, overt or potential, to racism.  UT's players put everyone on notice.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

It's definitely part of the problem that the tune itself has racist origins:  I've Been Working on the Railroad. I guess I thought most folks knew the origin of that song and others like it. I can only speak for my family, but we taught our children the origins of the song when they were old enough because they needed to learn the history behind the song. Folk songs have origins and those origins reflect the time and place from which they spring. Explained further in the spoiler, the "Levee song" which later became known by the above title, was quite popular at the time that the "Eyes" was written. University students were attending schools that were white, but only about thirty years removed from the Civil War years.

Here's some more history:

Spoiler

While the offensiveness of dressing in blackface is widely acknowledged, the ubiquity of blackface minstrel songs, by comparison, is relatively unknown. Blackface songs can be found throughout the American “folk” repertoire, in the fight songs of certain high schools and universities, and most disturbingly, in children’s music. Through decades of whitewashing in the 20th century, blackface minstrel songs were rebranded into the wholesome family favorites they are known as today, where they remain hidden in plain sight.

Blackface minstrelsy was the most popular form of musical entertainment in America from the 1840s to the early 20th century. The theatrical and musical act consisted of White performers coloring their skin with burned cork and ridiculing African Americans in blatantly racist terms.

Stock characters included “Jim Crow,” the illiterate plantation “darky” whose rubbery, resilient body was resistant to pain, and “Zip Coon,” the dandy who continuously tried and failed to fit into White, middle-class culture. Entertainers caricatured Black musicians by playing banjos — an instrument brought from Africa and adapted by enslaved Africans — and spoke in a caricature of Black dialect. While blackface minstrelsy contained an element of fascination with Black culture, minstrelsy’s popularity and success was driven by the stereotypes it perpetuated of Black Americans as buffoonish, naive, devious, prone to violence, superstitious, and servile.

Performing blackface minstrelsy started to become taboo by the 1950s, but its songs had become a fundamental part of American culture. The history of the children’s classic “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” serves as a case study illustrating how minstrel songs were whitewashed into wholesome American “folk songs” for children.

“I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” is based on the minstrel tune “Levee Song,” first published by Princeton University students in 1894. Caricaturing the African American laborers who built the levee and railroad systems in the 19th and early 20th centuries, “Levee Song” was a hit on college campuses and by 1920 became known by the line from its popular chorus, “I Been Wukkin’ on de Railroad.”

The song’s publication in caricatured Black dialect continued into the 1940s, with lyrics that reflected the physically abusive and highly exploitative conditions for laborers in railroad and levee camps. The camp workday began early (“rise up, so uhly in de mawn’”), the hours were long (“I been wukkin’ on de railroad all de live long day”), and White foremen enforced abusive conditions through disciplinary violence (“doan’ yuh hyah de capn’ shoutin’”), which occasionally resulted in death.

Dinah, the railroad camp cook whose meal is so eagerly awaited by the laborers (“Dinah, blow yo’ hawn!”) is a character from another minstrel song, “Old Joe,” or “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah.” Dinah was a 19th-century generic name for an African American woman, recalling Aunt Dinah, the untidy slave cook of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin (1852).In “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah,” a drunken plantation laborer, Old Joe, flies into a rage when he realizes that someone, “playin’ on de ole banjo,” is in the house with his mistress, Dinah. Like many minstrel songs, “Dinah” employs the classic minstrel trope of the African American playing the banjo.

The folk revivalist Pete Seeger similarly downplayed the historical roots of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad.” The liner notes to Seeger’s first recording of the song in 1963 innocuously describe “Railroad” as an “old 19th-century ditty” that “just keeps changing and rolling along.”

The mythologizing of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” as a tune celebrating American values has continued into recent decades. When Smithsonian Folkways reissued Seeger’s recording in 1990, the liner notes touted the “democratic passion” of folk revivalists to include the “music of working-class Americans” as part of the “national cultural conversation.” The Black Americans represented in “Railroad,” however, barely had any rights as laborers in railroad camps and arguably still lack basic rights as Americans today.

 

Here are the modern lyrics to the folk song followed by the older original Princeton version:

Spoiler

I've been working on the railroad
All the live-long day.
I've been working on the railroad
Just to pass the time away.
Can't you hear the whistle blowing,
Rise up so early in the morn;
Can't you hear the captain shouting,
"Dinah, blow your horn!"
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Someone's in the kitchen I know
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Strummin' on the old banjo!
Singin' fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o-o-o-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Strummin' on the old banjo.

Older version:

(SOLO) I once did know a girl named Grace--
(QUARTET) I'm wukkin' on de levee;
(SOLO) She done brung me to dis sad disgrace
(QUARTET) O' wukkin' on de levee.
I been wukkin' on de railroad
All de livelong day,
I been wukkin' on de railroad
Ter pass de time away.
Doan' yuh hyah de whistle blowin'?
Ris up, so uhly in de mawn;
Doan' yuh hyah de cap'n shouin',
"Dinah, blow yo' hawn?"
Sing a song o' the city;
Roll dat cotton bale;
Ni&&ah aint half so happy
As when he's out o' jail
Norfolk foh its oystahshells,
Boston foh its beans,
Chahleston foh its rice an' cawn,
But foh ni&&ahs New Awleens.

I have no say in your school's decision, as my degrees are from other institutions, but thought some additional background info might be good for discussion.

[TexArcher 39074]

40 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Only if we start with those basic points--and acknowledge those basic points--are we going to have any shot at a constructive discussion.

The only problem I have with this is that I don't hear anyone trying to have a constructive discussion.  Some people have decided that the song is racist and it needs to go.  So it will.  There won't be any real discussion about whether they're right.  

Again, I don't care that much about this issue.  But that seems like a dangerous precedent.

 

[LongestHorn 772]

I’m in the camp that used to sing eenie meenie miney moe until I discovered the roots of the song. 

[Llano Estacado 1257]

The only problem I have with this is that I don't hear anyone trying to have a constructive discussion.  Some people have decided that the song is racist and it needs to go.  So it will.  There won't be any real discussion about whether they're right.    

 

 

This.

 

Cedric Golden posted this last week.

 

It’s false information shared by the players.

 

Without any real discussion of the history and coming to terms with it some of our fan base will continue to sing The Eyes in an unofficial capacity and co-opt our school song into something it’s not, overtly racist lyrics.

 

Blow-up the cowboy pavilion next to the Exes building or better yet turn it into a history documenting their misdeeds. Put the information out there so former athletes, alum, and current students can have meaningful discussion.

 

I posted in the FB thread I hope The Eyes stay. I see it as a reminder and reaffirmation when I sing it that I belong to something greater than myself now. It’s just a song. My degree is just a piece of paper. The university is just a collection of buildings, staff, and students. Football is just a game. But together we’re better than the sum of our parts.

 

I hope there is real dialogue and change. We can’t hide our history, but we can share it and be better Texans and Longhorns in the future.

 

Edit:Tapa is being dumb when trying to embed the Golden tweet

[Brisketexan 106913]

28 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

I’m in the camp that used to sing eenie meenie miney moe until I discovered the roots of the song. 

And I'm of the camp that didn't even KNOW about those origins till I was in my 40s.  Seriously, I had ZERO clue (I'd never heard the racist version -- which is good news, I guess...but still).

[TwiceHorn 32082]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And I'm of the camp that didn't even KNOW about those origins till I was in my 40s.  Seriously, I had ZERO clue (I'd never heard the racist version -- which is good news, I guess...but still).

There is ample evidence that there was a racist version of the song.  I'm not sure that evidence reflects its actual origin, though.

It's murky.

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

There is ample evidence that there was a racist version of the song.  I'm not sure that evidence reflects its actual origin, though.

It's murky.

 

The eenie meenie song? That one is slightly different because it's a 'counting song' not a folk song. Counting songs exist worldwide and in all the different languages. (Back before coursework was so rate limited, I took a lot of electives in children's literature because it covers a lot of ground: political, artistic, cultural, etc). It wasn't uncommon to use the 'N' word or "negro," for many many years, but that is one that got whitewashed pretty abruptly apparently and changed to 'tiger.'  But the use of the word 'negro' and the subsequent 'if he hollers let 'em go' or 'if he hollers make him pay,' apparently was drawing upon the lore of slave catchers.

[Tom 2960]

I'll reserve my thoughts until after I hear which children's folk song we're ripping the next melody from. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by Tom

[bolverk 30337]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

It's definitely part of the problem that the tune itself has racist origins:  I've Been Working on the Railroad. I guess I thought most folks knew the origin of that song and others like it. I can only speak for my family, but we taught our children the origins of the song when they were old enough because they needed to learn the history behind the song. Folk songs have origins and those origins reflect the time and place from which they spring. Explained further in the spoiler, the "Levee song" which later became known by the above title, was quite popular at the time that the "Eyes" was written. University students were attending schools that were white, but only about thirty years removed from the Civil War years.

Here's some more history:

  Hide contents

While the offensiveness of dressing in blackface is widely acknowledged, the ubiquity of blackface minstrel songs, by comparison, is relatively unknown. Blackface songs can be found throughout the American “folk” repertoire, in the fight songs of certain high schools and universities, and most disturbingly, in children’s music. Through decades of whitewashing in the 20th century, blackface minstrel songs were rebranded into the wholesome family favorites they are known as today, where they remain hidden in plain sight.

Blackface minstrelsy was the most popular form of musical entertainment in America from the 1840s to the early 20th century. The theatrical and musical act consisted of White performers coloring their skin with burned cork and ridiculing African Americans in blatantly racist terms.

Stock characters included “Jim Crow,” the illiterate plantation “darky” whose rubbery, resilient body was resistant to pain, and “Zip Coon,” the dandy who continuously tried and failed to fit into White, middle-class culture. Entertainers caricatured Black musicians by playing banjos — an instrument brought from Africa and adapted by enslaved Africans — and spoke in a caricature of Black dialect. While blackface minstrelsy contained an element of fascination with Black culture, minstrelsy’s popularity and success was driven by the stereotypes it perpetuated of Black Americans as buffoonish, naive, devious, prone to violence, superstitious, and servile.

Performing blackface minstrelsy started to become taboo by the 1950s, but its songs had become a fundamental part of American culture. The history of the children’s classic “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” serves as a case study illustrating how minstrel songs were whitewashed into wholesome American “folk songs” for children.

“I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” is based on the minstrel tune “Levee Song,” first published by Princeton University students in 1894. Caricaturing the African American laborers who built the levee and railroad systems in the 19th and early 20th centuries, “Levee Song” was a hit on college campuses and by 1920 became known by the line from its popular chorus, “I Been Wukkin’ on de Railroad.”

The song’s publication in caricatured Black dialect continued into the 1940s, with lyrics that reflected the physically abusive and highly exploitative conditions for laborers in railroad and levee camps. The camp workday began early (“rise up, so uhly in de mawn’”), the hours were long (“I been wukkin’ on de railroad all de live long day”), and White foremen enforced abusive conditions through disciplinary violence (“doan’ yuh hyah de capn’ shoutin’”), which occasionally resulted in death.

Dinah, the railroad camp cook whose meal is so eagerly awaited by the laborers (“Dinah, blow yo’ hawn!”) is a character from another minstrel song, “Old Joe,” or “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah.” Dinah was a 19th-century generic name for an African American woman, recalling Aunt Dinah, the untidy slave cook of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin (1852).In “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah,” a drunken plantation laborer, Old Joe, flies into a rage when he realizes that someone, “playin’ on de ole banjo,” is in the house with his mistress, Dinah. Like many minstrel songs, “Dinah” employs the classic minstrel trope of the African American playing the banjo.

The folk revivalist Pete Seeger similarly downplayed the historical roots of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad.” The liner notes to Seeger’s first recording of the song in 1963 innocuously describe “Railroad” as an “old 19th-century ditty” that “just keeps changing and rolling along.”

The mythologizing of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” as a tune celebrating American values has continued into recent decades. When Smithsonian Folkways reissued Seeger’s recording in 1990, the liner notes touted the “democratic passion” of folk revivalists to include the “music of working-class Americans” as part of the “national cultural conversation.” The Black Americans represented in “Railroad,” however, barely had any rights as laborers in railroad camps and arguably still lack basic rights as Americans today.

 

Here are the modern lyrics to the folk song followed by the older original Princeton version:

  Reveal hidden contents

I've been working on the railroad
All the live-long day.
I've been working on the railroad
Just to pass the time away.
Can't you hear the whistle blowing,
Rise up so early in the morn;
Can't you hear the captain shouting,
"Dinah, blow your horn!"
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Someone's in the kitchen I know
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Strummin' on the old banjo!
Singin' fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o-o-o-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Strummin' on the old banjo.

Older version:

(SOLO) I once did know a girl named Grace--
(QUARTET) I'm wukkin' on de levee;
(SOLO) She done brung me to dis sad disgrace
(QUARTET) O' wukkin' on de levee.
I been wukkin' on de railroad
All de livelong day,
I been wukkin' on de railroad
Ter pass de time away.
Doan' yuh hyah de whistle blowin'?
Ris up, so uhly in de mawn;
Doan' yuh hyah de cap'n shouin',
"Dinah, blow yo' hawn?"
Sing a song o' the city;
Roll dat cotton bale;
Ni&&ah aint half so happy
As when he's out o' jail
Norfolk foh its oystahshells,
Boston foh its beans,
Chahleston foh its rice an' cawn,
But foh ni&&ahs New Awleens.

I have no say in your school's decision, as my degrees are from other institutions, but thought some additional background info might be good for discussion.

Damn, that's really informative. I absolutely had no idea that "I've Been Working on the Railroad" had anything to do with race. In my head, I've always pictured the character of Dinah as being the train itself. But when you deconstruct the lyrics to actually understand the context and language used within the song like in that description (when 5yo me never did as a kid), it becomes abundantly clear.

Edit: And for whatever reason, I always kind of thought of "Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah" as a different song, which obviously doesn't make sense when you put 2+2 together after mindlessly singing it.

Fuck.

Edited June 18, 2020 by bolverk

[Brisketexan 106913]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

I'll reserve my thoughts until after I hear which children's folk song we're ripping the next melody from. 

Over the hills and far away
Teletubbies come to play

One (one)
Two (two)
Three (three)
Four (four)

Teletubbies

Time for teletubbies
Time for teletubbies
Time for teletubbies....

Tinkywinky. "Tinkywinky!"
Dipsy. "Dipsy!"
Laalaa. "Laalaa!"
Po. "Po!"
Teletubbies. "Teletubbies!"
Say, Heeeeee-lo! "Eh-oh!"

Tinkywinky. Dipsy. Laalaa. Po
Teletubbies. "Teletubbies!"
Say Heeeeeee ......... "
Uh-oh!"

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, Llano Estacado said:

 

This.

 

Cedric Golden posted this last week.

 

 

It’s false information shared by the players.

 

Without any real discussion of the history and coming to terms with it some of our fan base will continue to sing The Eyes in an unofficial capacity and co-opt our school song into something it’s not, overtly racist lyrics.

 

Blow-up the cowboy pavilion next to the Exes building or better yet turn it into a history documenting their misdeeds. Put the information out there so former athletes, alum, and current students can have meaningful discussion.

 

I posted in the FB thread I hope The Eyes stay. I see it as a reminder and reaffirmation when I sing it that I belong to something greater than myself now. It’s just a song. My degree is just a piece of paper. The university is just a collection of buildings, staff, and students. Football is just a game. But together we’re better than the sum of our parts.

 

I hope there is real dialogue and change. We can’t hide our history, but we can share it and be better Texans and Longhorns in the future.

 

Edit:Tapa is being dumb when trying to embed the Golden tweet

Exactly. I knew those lyrics had to be construed that way by at least some of the black athletes that come through the school. That's why I think changing the lyrics will appease the objection. Also acknowledging that even though they weren't originally meant to be towards slaves or have any racial overtones it is understandable that young black men and women in America with the systemic racism as strong as ever could take them to mean that. 

So make the changes to the lyrics to make it undeniably inclusive and also remove the obligation for the athletes to stay after a game and sign the song. They can if they want but if they choose not to they can go into the locker room before it's played. 

But with the alterations still play it for the players and coaches that wish to partake as well as for the fan base that has come to love the song as tradition. 

[Wanker Bob 379]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

And I'm of the camp that didn't even KNOW about those origins till I was in my 40s.  Seriously, I had ZERO clue (I'd never heard the racist version -- which is good news, I guess...but still).

What is this song? I've never heard it before

[Brisketexan 106913]

2 minutes ago, Wanker Bob said:

What is this song? I've never heard it before

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

[Mole 4343]

I had never heard of the racist version until about 20 minutes ago. Having scanned the Wiki article, I now consider myself an expert. According to my Wiki expertise, calling the racist version the “origin” might not be 100% accurate. Of course, once you find yourself arguing about the nuances of racism, you’re probably making a losing argument.

[bolverk 30337]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

I learned the non racist version first too but must've been taught the racist one sometime on the playground in elementary school by a friend from a slightly more racist family than the one I grew up in, which wasn't overtly racist. My parents just gave winks and nods to their feelings and passed on the stereotypes of which I fully admit having had to purposely and with concerted effort try to disabuse myself over the years.

[Chuckie Finster 23081]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

https://www.onlygators.com/06/18/2020/florida-gators-to-discontinue-gator-bait-cheer-despite-no-evidence-of-direct-racial-ties/

What starts here changes the world.  I think you're going to see a lot of schools flushing anything that remotely has any ties, overt or potential, to racism.  UT's players put everyone on notice.  

We may have put everyone on notice, but I think the UF prez just forced our hand.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

My late grammy loved to sing and also recite poetry and nursery rhymes to us. She had a hs diploma, but had higher hopes for us and seemed to intuitively realize that language in its many forms is good for children. She grew up in Jim Crow times, and was well aware of the pejorative versions but did not introduce those to us when we were young. About hs age, I recall somehow the topic came up and she talked about how people could be so insensitive--calling Brazil nuts by the racist term for example 'as if people don't have any regard for the experiences of others.' She remembered all the rhymes of childhood--the Robert Louis Stevenson, the Wordsworth, and the folk songs and ditties that were passed down by her mama. Paper Moon was one she used to sing to me a lot. (Love that movie, btw). She was too poor to own a toothbrush, made a dollhouse when she was a child out of repurposed cardboard she found, and not enough to eat most of her youth and young adulthood but always had a common decency toward treating others the way she would want to be treated.

[TXSG8R 3362]

7 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

We may have put everyone on notice, but I think the UF prez just forced our hand.

Possibly, but they are pretty different. Gator bait has clear, ugly racist connotations. The school chant isn’t remotely tied to that connotation if you listen to Lawrence Wright. But it’s just too close an association to ignore anymore. The eyes is a much murkier situation IMO. 

[Ghost of LL 15698]

37 minutes ago, Tom said:

I'll reserve my thoughts until after I hear which children's folk song we're ripping the next melody from.