Eyes of Texas

[Chuckie Finster 22600]

14 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Possibly, but they are pretty different. Gator bait has clear, ugly racist connotations. The school chant isn’t remotely tied to that connotation if you listen to Lawrence Wright. But it’s just too close an association to ignore anymore. The eyes is a much murkier situation IMO. 

I mean logically you're correct, but "we concluded that Florida's not-overtly-racist-chant had a more direct association with racist origins than ours'" isn't a resolution that I think will sit well with the athletes.  What they'll see is another big state school making changes to tradition, so why can't we?

[Tom 2959]

43 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Over the hills and far away
Teletubbies come to play

One (one)
Two (two)
Three (three)
Four (four)

Teletubbies

Time for teletubbies
Time for teletubbies
Time for teletubbies....

Tinkywinky. "Tinkywinky!"
Dipsy. "Dipsy!"
Laalaa. "Laalaa!"
Po. "Po!"
Teletubbies. "Teletubbies!"
Say, Heeeeee-lo! "Eh-oh!"

Tinkywinky. Dipsy. Laalaa. Po
Teletubbies. "Teletubbies!"
Say Heeeeeee ......... "
Uh-oh!"

 

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

 

 

 If these are my choices I choose racism.

[Brisketexan 104628]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

 

 If these are my choices I choose racism.

That I laughed at this response is exhibit # 1,895,674 why I am going straight to hell.  Goddamit.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

53 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Edit: And for whatever reason, I always kind of thought of "Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah" as a different song, which obviously doesn't make sense when you put 2+2 together after mindlessly singing it.

Fuck.

Yes, they were two songs and then combined to create the modern one that most children sing today. I remember how eye opening it was to learn more about it when I was younger because of my grandmother explaining the bit about Dinah and how the fellow was angry because while he was working, some man was sneaking round the kitchen behind his back to steal away his 'girl.' That theme in particular would have resonated with the listeners of the times because, in addition to the other tropes denigrating African Americans in the minstrelsy songs, the idea of black sexuality was laden with stereotypes.

In a country music honky tonk, it would be "Your Cheatin' Heart". But that would not be performed in a minstrel show. That word, 'honky-tonk' is interesting too, and intertwined with the music of the South and the West and the interchange of ideas that traveled between races and classes but best discussed perhaps in another thread.

Our history, like all histories worldwide is complicated. And fascinating (to me).

 

[Sawbonz 27436]

I vote for this 

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

Daniel Boone was a man

Yes a big man

But the bear was bigger  . . . 

 

[Apex73 313]

8 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

if the players (and future players) want it changed, then change it. who cares what the donors or fans have to say?

fans like wins, they’ll adjust. 

Except we aren't winning that much.

[Gatorubet 30115]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

....and I suppose you ate Brazil nuts?

[Brisketexan 104628]

....and I suppose you ate Brazil nuts?

I did....and I didn’t know about THAT racist term till I was a young adult. I heard the n-word plenty, but never in that context. I mean, I’m glad that my parents didn’t roll with hardcore racists, so that’s good.

[Gatorubet 30115]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I did....and I didn’t know about THAT racist term till I was a young adult. I heard the n-word plenty, but never in that context. I mean, I’m glad that my parents didn’t roll with hardcore racists, so that’s good.

It was almost impossible to avoid it if you grew up in the south in the early 60s.    I moved down south from Iowa, and had a rude awaking...like seeing sunlight through the window and recognizing South Austin's mom. 

[SaucyJack 3487]

9 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

It's definitely part of the problem that the tune itself has racist origins:  I've Been Working on the Railroad. I guess I thought most folks knew the origin of that song and others like it. I can only speak for my family, but we taught our children the origins of the song when they were old enough because they needed to learn the history behind the song. Folk songs have origins and those origins reflect the time and place from which they spring. Explained further in the spoiler, the "Levee song" which later became known by the above title, was quite popular at the time that the "Eyes" was written. University students were attending schools that were white, but only about thirty years removed from the Civil War years.

Here's some more history:

  Hide contents

While the offensiveness of dressing in blackface is widely acknowledged, the ubiquity of blackface minstrel songs, by comparison, is relatively unknown. Blackface songs can be found throughout the American “folk” repertoire, in the fight songs of certain high schools and universities, and most disturbingly, in children’s music. Through decades of whitewashing in the 20th century, blackface minstrel songs were rebranded into the wholesome family favorites they are known as today, where they remain hidden in plain sight.

Blackface minstrelsy was the most popular form of musical entertainment in America from the 1840s to the early 20th century. The theatrical and musical act consisted of White performers coloring their skin with burned cork and ridiculing African Americans in blatantly racist terms.

Stock characters included “Jim Crow,” the illiterate plantation “darky” whose rubbery, resilient body was resistant to pain, and “Zip Coon,” the dandy who continuously tried and failed to fit into White, middle-class culture. Entertainers caricatured Black musicians by playing banjos — an instrument brought from Africa and adapted by enslaved Africans — and spoke in a caricature of Black dialect. While blackface minstrelsy contained an element of fascination with Black culture, minstrelsy’s popularity and success was driven by the stereotypes it perpetuated of Black Americans as buffoonish, naive, devious, prone to violence, superstitious, and servile.

Performing blackface minstrelsy started to become taboo by the 1950s, but its songs had become a fundamental part of American culture. The history of the children’s classic “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” serves as a case study illustrating how minstrel songs were whitewashed into wholesome American “folk songs” for children.

“I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” is based on the minstrel tune “Levee Song,” first published by Princeton University students in 1894. Caricaturing the African American laborers who built the levee and railroad systems in the 19th and early 20th centuries, “Levee Song” was a hit on college campuses and by 1920 became known by the line from its popular chorus, “I Been Wukkin’ on de Railroad.”

The song’s publication in caricatured Black dialect continued into the 1940s, with lyrics that reflected the physically abusive and highly exploitative conditions for laborers in railroad and levee camps. The camp workday began early (“rise up, so uhly in de mawn’”), the hours were long (“I been wukkin’ on de railroad all de live long day”), and White foremen enforced abusive conditions through disciplinary violence (“doan’ yuh hyah de capn’ shoutin’”), which occasionally resulted in death.

Dinah, the railroad camp cook whose meal is so eagerly awaited by the laborers (“Dinah, blow yo’ hawn!”) is a character from another minstrel song, “Old Joe,” or “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah.” Dinah was a 19th-century generic name for an African American woman, recalling Aunt Dinah, the untidy slave cook of Harriet Beecher Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin (1852).In “Dere’s Some One in de House wid Dinah,” a drunken plantation laborer, Old Joe, flies into a rage when he realizes that someone, “playin’ on de ole banjo,” is in the house with his mistress, Dinah. Like many minstrel songs, “Dinah” employs the classic minstrel trope of the African American playing the banjo.

The folk revivalist Pete Seeger similarly downplayed the historical roots of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad.” The liner notes to Seeger’s first recording of the song in 1963 innocuously describe “Railroad” as an “old 19th-century ditty” that “just keeps changing and rolling along.”

The mythologizing of “I’ve Been Working on the Railroad” as a tune celebrating American values has continued into recent decades. When Smithsonian Folkways reissued Seeger’s recording in 1990, the liner notes touted the “democratic passion” of folk revivalists to include the “music of working-class Americans” as part of the “national cultural conversation.” The Black Americans represented in “Railroad,” however, barely had any rights as laborers in railroad camps and arguably still lack basic rights as Americans today.

 

Here are the modern lyrics to the folk song followed by the older original Princeton version:

  Hide contents

I've been working on the railroad
All the live-long day.
I've been working on the railroad
Just to pass the time away.
Can't you hear the whistle blowing,
Rise up so early in the morn;
Can't you hear the captain shouting,
"Dinah, blow your horn!"
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow,
Dinah, won't you blow your horn?
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Someone's in the kitchen I know
Someone's in the kitchen with Dinah
Strummin' on the old banjo!
Singin' fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o-o-o-o
Fee, fie, fiddly-i-o
Strummin' on the old banjo.

Older version:

(SOLO) I once did know a girl named Grace--
(QUARTET) I'm wukkin' on de levee;
(SOLO) She done brung me to dis sad disgrace
(QUARTET) O' wukkin' on de levee.
I been wukkin' on de railroad
All de livelong day,
I been wukkin' on de railroad
Ter pass de time away.
Doan' yuh hyah de whistle blowin'?
Ris up, so uhly in de mawn;
Doan' yuh hyah de cap'n shouin',
"Dinah, blow yo' hawn?"
Sing a song o' the city;
Roll dat cotton bale;
Ni&&ah aint half so happy
As when he's out o' jail
Norfolk foh its oystahshells,
Boston foh its beans,
Chahleston foh its rice an' cawn,
But foh ni&&ahs New Awleens.

I have no say in your school's decision, as my degrees are from other institutions, but thought some additional background info might be good for discussion.

OKAY, HOUSTON WE'VE HAD A PROBLEM HERE

https://archive.org/details/carminaprinceto00univgoog/page/n27/mode/2up

[TXSG8R 3360]

55 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I did....and I didn’t know about THAT racist term till I was a young adult. I heard the n-word plenty, but never in that context. I mean, I’m glad that my parents didn’t roll with hardcore racists, so that’s good.

You’re lucky. I had the inverse experience. Didn’t know it was called a Brazil nut until middle school. Wasn’t my parents thankfully, in-laws on my dads side in Florida (big shocker) that got that mixed bag of nuts every Christmas. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by TXSG8R

[safe sex 11684]

I first heard the original racist version of 'Eenie meenie' when Quentin Tarantino (noted lover of the n-word) had a white supremacist rapist chant it when trying to choose which man to brutalize first. Guess who he picked.

[maninblack 7974]

It’s easier to talk about but harder to see. The manager of this show asked for a parody song and the eyes was born debuted on his show:

No it wasnt

[Wanker Bob 379]

18 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

Oh shit I have heard that one in Pulp Fiction

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

9 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

You’re lucky. I had the inverse experience. Didn’t know it was called a Brazil nut until middle school. Wasn’t my parents thankfully, in-laws on my dads side in Florida (big shocker) that got that mixed bag of nuts every Christmas. 

same, though it was my grandparents that called them that, and used the term quite freely until their deaths. All four of them were born between 1900-1918, and grew up in rural Louisiana, so not a big shock. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

14 hours ago, SaucyJack said:

OKAY, HOUSTON WE'VE HAD A PROBLEM HERE

https://archive.org/details/carminaprinceto00univgoog/page/n27/mode/2up

I finished up some work early today and got to thinking about some of the dialogue that students, alumni, and other interested parties have engaged in regarding not just the Eyes of Texas, but also the L. Sullivan Ross statue and other images. I can't recall where I saw it, maybe Surly maybe the Ag site, or another forum that I peruse but it has been posited that 'many of these students weren't protesting about these things _________ (insert days, months, years) ago.'

IMO, that's weak. First of all, currently enrolled students--when would they have learned of this prior to arriving (esp if they were white)? Are the two largest unis in Texas discussed in a hs class in this manner? Secondly, once upon campus, students now select from the core curricula as the foundation for their degree plan. Depending upon the institution students may 'self-select' just how inclusive they want their coursework to be. Regardless, depending upon the degree there are work arounds. So some students may be receiving new insight into history that they never realized while others are oblivious. The term 'woke' is used almost as a pejorative now, but it's original intent and meaning is not out of place in an institution devoted to critical thinking.

Finally, students pass through an institution, leave, and the wave recedes. In schools where tradition is revered, change may require other forces to give it a hard push. You know the real reason James Earl Rudder let women into Texas A&M? Revenue. Enrollment was declining and UT and the other state schools were growing by leaps and bounds. State schools tread a very interesting line between their mission and money.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
Edit

[David Dennison 18660]

5 hours ago, maninblack said:

No it wasnt

You think it was all that different in 1903?

[Hookah Horns 3082]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:10 AM, gmr548 said:

I get that it's an entrenched tradition abd people are reluctant, or even hostile to changing that. In a perfect world I wouldn't change it either. I didn't have any idea - and I'd bet this applies to most fans/alums - about the history.

I guess what gets me is that people defend keeping it because the contemporary meaning isn't racist and is meant as a song of unity. In reality, that's a defense of yourself, not the song. People want to feel better about themselves for having sung it and wanting to keep it.

Bottom line is if a song meant to unify is aleinating a chunk of the students/alumni, then it isn't doing it's job. If UT's black community is uncomfortable with the song it should go. I don't see how you get around that without some serious mental gymnastics.

I disagree.

It's unlikely anyone has ever gotten offended just from hearing the song.

If you have to dig into the history of a song to find offense, and the offense doesn't even come from the meaning of the words, it doesn't need to be banned. 

[David Dennison 18660]

1 minute ago, Hookah Horns said:

I disagree.

It's unlikely anyone has ever gotten offended just from hearing the song.

If you have to dig into the history of a song to find offense, and the offense doesn't even come from the meaning of the words, it doesn't need to be banned. 

Nor does it need to be played.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Nor does it need to be played.

It's the goddamned alma mater.  It needs to be played until it's not the alma mater.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

The song's about to hit the century mark, correct? If you all decide that you need a new one, you have what? two to three years to get it written and polished up.

[formermav43 4599]

25 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The song's about to hit the century mark, correct? If you all decide that you need a new one, you have what? two to three years to get it written and polished up.

Nope. 1903.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

On 6/18/2020 at 2:36 PM, Brisketexan said:

Eenie meenie, miney, moe, catch a tiger by his toe, if he hollers let him go, eenie meenie, miney moe.

Except in the original, it ain't a tiger.  I had never heard of the racist version till a few years ago.  And I did NOT live an insulated childhood.

as a small kid the version I learned was eenie meenie miney moe, catch a N* by his toe, if he hollers make him pay, 50 dollars every day, my mother told me to pick the very best one and you are not it.  Its how we picked who was it for for tag and what not.

When I reached the mature age of 7 or 8, suddenly we changed the n word to tiger.  All other words unchanged. I do not ever remember an adult being a part of the learning of that rhyme or the spreading of that rhyme, and I don't know what made us all switch the words when we did.

This is how everyone I played with as a small kid said it in the Texas panhandle in the 70's, both white and Mexican.  I didn't actually meet any black people my age until we had already stopped playing the games that used those rhymes to pick people, so yeah. Congrats on growing up in what was still a mostly segregated town where all the black kids went to the other elementary school I guess.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Our national anthem came from the tune of a drinking pub song. Its origins were from a drunken ditty, but we took that ditty and made it the anthem of a powerful nation. That is a true fact. The Eyes came from a minstrel tune and was sung in a minstrel show when it was debuted. But it was made into the alma mater for a great University by generations of students with no intention to be hurtful in singing the words. That too is a fact. The meaning of things evolve just as customs and institutions change. Texas was originally meant to be a University for white men only, but now it is a University for all who pass the criteria and get accepted, be they female, hispanic, or disabled.

A drinking song tune and a minstrel show tune ain't nothing to be so proud of but it would be a lie to say that those awful beginnings can't be overcome. That they can't evolve into something glorious. How many times did you get goose bumps hearing The Star Spangled Banner played during the olympics? Do you remember the feeling of singing The Eyes after the National championship game? The pride was streaming out of my eyes because my chest couldn't contain it. 

We have to respectfully find a way to remove the sting of its origins from what it is now. After all,  the University itself was racist in its origins but we aren't scrapping it. That is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. One of you brilliant assholes come up with a plan and maybe we can petition the University with it. Maybe we dont have to lose it nor hurt the feelings of the student athletes that represent UT today. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by burntorangebongos

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

Oh and as for the Eyes, I'm struggling to understand  where the concern lies.  Is it with the tune because the tune was originally a racist tune, we just changed the words, was it the words, because the words referred back to a statement made by a racist, or is it neither, its just that it was originally written to be played in a minstrel show?  

If it's the tune, ok, I get it, lets craft a new tune and keep the words.  If its the words, ok, let's craft some new words and keep the tune. 

If it's the way it was introduced, then let's dig into the history and figure out if it was actually written as an alma mater and just happened to be introduced at a minstrel show, in which case maybe we keep it because there wasn't anything being introduced in 1903 that wasn't being introduced for the first time in front of a bunch of racists. 

Or if it was written to poke fun of a dean for a minstrel show and caught on, yeah maybe it's time to finally drop the parody song we've been singing.  Sometimes you have to let the joke die.

I say all that but I gotta be honest, I want to do what's right by our students and I don't care if that means the Eyes goes into the dustbin, even if hearing the Eyes in the Rose Bowl in January 2006 was magical. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Those are thoughtful nuanced responses and rep to you both for representing your school with compassionate and reasoned discussion. Whatever the outcome, UT still does pretty darn spiffy for graduates.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 hour ago, formermav43 said:

Nope. 1903.

Math is hard. Thanks for the correction.

[David Dennison 18660]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

It's the goddamned alma mater.  It needs to be played until it's not the alma mater.

Which is where this is headed. Not if, but when.

[Wanker Bob 379]

52 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Oh and as for the Eyes, I'm struggling to understand  where the concern lies.  Is it with the tune because the tune was originally a racist tune, we just changed the words, was it the words, because the words referred back to a statement made by a racist, or is it neither, its just that it was originally written to be played in a minstrel show?  

If it's the tune, ok, I get it, lets craft a new tune and keep the words.  If its the words, ok, let's craft some new words and keep the tune. 

If it's the way it was introduced, then let's dig into the history and figure out if it was actually written as an alma mater and just happened to be introduced at a minstrel show, in which case maybe we keep it because there wasn't anything being introduced in 1903 that wasn't being introduced for the first time in front of a bunch of racists. 

Or if it was written to poke fun of a dean for a minstrel show and caught on, yeah maybe it's time to finally drop the parody song we've been singing.  Sometimes you have to let the joke die.

I say all that but I gotta be honest, I want to do what's right by our students and I don't care if that means the Eyes goes into the dustbin, even if hearing the Eyes in the Rose Bowl in January 2006 was magical. 

From what I've heard most of the players who refused to sing it did so because the lyrics can be easily misconstrued to be white masters barking at slaves. One person notices it and tells the others and all of a sudden it's racist. 

I doubt any players knew anything about the racist show origins or Robert E Lee until this all came up. 

That said, can be easily fixed by changing a few words so the song isn't talking at anyone and is instead speaking inclusively to the singer as well as audience. 

In the end though I think most black players just think it's a stupid ass old times whitey song and feel dumb having to hold their hands up and sing it after games and would rather not. 

[gmr548 16517]

I disagree.
It's unlikely anyone has ever gotten offended just from hearing the song.
If you have to dig into the history of a song to find offense, and the offense doesn't even come from the meaning of the words, it doesn't need to be banned. 

"It's unlikely anyone ever" is a very high bar that we know isn't true but okay. It's out there now. If a large portion isn't comfortable going forward then the point stands.

[SaucyJack 3487]

8 hours ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Oh and as for the Eyes, I'm struggling to understand  where the concern lies.  Is it with the tune because the tune was originally a racist tune, we just changed the words, was it the words, because the words referred back to a statement made by a racist, or is it neither, its just that it was originally written to be played in a minstrel show?  

If it's the tune, ok, I get it, lets craft a new tune and keep the words.  If its the words, ok, let's craft some new words and keep the tune. 

If it's the way it was introduced, then let's dig into the history and figure out if it was actually written as an alma mater and just happened to be introduced at a minstrel show, in which case maybe we keep it because there wasn't anything being introduced in 1903 that wasn't being introduced for the first time in front of a bunch of racists. 

Or if it was written to poke fun of a dean for a minstrel show and caught on, yeah maybe it's time to finally drop the parody song we've been singing.  Sometimes you have to let the joke die.

I say all that but I gotta be honest, I want to do what's right by our students and I don't care if that means the Eyes goes into the dustbin, even if hearing the Eyes in the Rose Bowl in January 2006 was magical. 

I’d like to find a source document or statement on what the grievance is. All I read are generalities, no specifics.

If need be would be very easy to incorporate some of the  original lyrics which would not change the chemistry of the song. 

If it’s the tune it could be problematic.  

The Eyes gives me chills every time I hear and sing it.

7 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Those are thoughtful nuanced responses and rep to you both for representing your school with compassionate and reasoned discussion. Whatever the outcome, UT still does pretty darn spiffy for graduates.

The University changed the courses of my and my wife’s lives.  Degrees and post graduate paper in business and law. 

We both came from lower blue collar homes, but UT and Austin were the foundation for putting us in a position that has allowed us to willingly give back much. /csb

[ftf82 485]

Long post on the Austin subreddit today with the backstory on the song

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/hclwto/nw_corner_of_6th_congress_600_congress_january_1/

[Hookah Horns 3082]

19 hours ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

"It's unlikely anyone ever" is a very high bar that we know isn't true but okay. It's out there now. If a large portion isn't comfortable going forward then the point stands.

 

We know it's not true? Who has gotten offended by the song on its face?

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

3 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

We know it's not true? Who has gotten offended by the song on its face?

There was a post upthread talking about some of the athletes thinking some of the lyrics were a call back to slavery.  That seems like a pretty decent reason to be offended, tbh.  

[TwiceHorn 31283]

26 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

There was a post upthread talking about some of the athletes thinking some of the lyrics were a call back to slavery.  That seems like a pretty decent reason to be offended, tbh.  

Taking the words "you cannot get away from night til early in the morn" and thinking they somehow implicate slavery is laughable.

To be frank, some of the students have been sold a bill of goods on this one.  A professor, who admits being ambivalent about the song, exposed them to the racial factoids and his imprimatur was basically "QED racist."

To SaucyJack's questions, the items seem to be as follows:

• the phrase "Eyes of Texas" was President Prather's paraphrase of Robt. E. Lee speaking as President of W&L (the eyes of the South are upon you).
• the music is I've Been Working on The Railroad, which has racist lyrics in its original or an early variant
• the song was first performed at a (what I really understand to be "the") student musical variety show that at the time was a minstrel show

All of those things are at least one degree of separation away from the song itself.  There is no evidence that the song itself was written to demean or disparage blacks in any way shape or form.  There is no hidden meaning, no double-entendre, no coded reference. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31283]

On 6/19/2020 at 5:23 AM, trauma babe said:

I first heard the original racist version of 'Eenie meenie' when Quentin Tarantino (noted lover of the n-word) had a white supremacist rapist chant it when trying to choose which man to brutalize first. Guess who he picked.

Actually, I think that's true for me, as well.  Although for some reason it didn't surprise me to learn or assume that the original lyric may have been nagger.

[troph 24563]

It’s not racist to me. It’s as dear to me as any spiritual hymn including Amazing Grace.* Truth is none of that matters, what I think doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if the song was sung at my own birth. It doesn’t matter if I love it at Texas OU. It doesn’t matter because I’m white. I don’t matter. Of course The Eyes isn’t racist to me, it’s about unity and accountability. Just like Amazing Grace is about complete repentance to me. But you know what? My opinion doesn’t mean jack shit. My opinion is worth zero, less than zero. My opinion isn’t worth the electronic byte it occupies. Why? Because I’m white. It’s about time that my opinion matter as much as it should. It’s time for Black opinions to prevail. Like Bates above, I’m here to listen. If my opinion is invited I will respond in more detail but until then I’m gonna sit down, shut up and listen to those who say it hurts them.

* Amazing Grace was written as a statement of complete repentance by a man who was in the slave trade - of course he didn’t leave the slave trade until years later.

[formermav43 4599]

The alma mater represents the University as a whole, not just black athletes or even black students more broadly. The idea that only black opinions matter on this (and the implication that they are monolithic) strikes me as much more problematic than the song. 

[phdhorn 6224]

36 minutes ago, troph said:

* Amazing Grace was written as a statement of complete repentance by a man who was in the slave trade - of course he didn’t leave the slave trade until years later.

John Newton left the slave trade in 1755, after briefly serving as a mate, then a captain on ships that were notoriously much more humane to slaves.   Still, in shame and disgust, he quit the slave trade and took up the clergyship.   He wrote the Amazing Grace lyrics in 1772, well after retiring as a slave captain, or having anything to do whatsoever with slavery personally.  His last major work was Thoughts Upon The African Slave Trade in 1787, which William Wilberforce used as a primary guide in his movement which ended slavery in Britain by 1807.  Of Newton's 78 years, only seven were spent in the slave trade.  Nevertheless he never stopped working for abolition, despite many of his friends calling for him to retire, in an age where he was vehemently mocked for his stance against slavery.

[troph 24563]

I respectfully disagree given the evidence of its history, the lyrics and the tune. I walked the campus oblivious to the racism of many UT founders it’s quite possible we are oblivious here too. I’ve been told I’m wrong by men, women, anyone not like me on a whole host of issues related to my experience. And I can tell you it’s infuriating, impossible, maddening, entrapping and a place I wouldn’t want anyone to be found. I imagine black athletes may feel the same. I imagine black students deal with it walking around campus. It’s a song, one I dearly love, one I’ve cried to a dozen times I’m sure. You won’t find an alum more dedicated to the song but it’s not without blemish and when that blemish has zero impact on me and a tremendous impact on others, the opinions of others is what matters.

[troph 24563]

John Newton left the slave trade in 1755, after briefly serving as a mate, then a captain on ships that were notoriously much more humane to slaves.   Still, in shame and disgust, he quit the slave trade and took up the clergyship.   He wrote the Amazing Grace lyrics in 1772, well after retiring as a slave captain, or having anything to do whatsoever with slavery personally.  His last major work was Thoughts Upon The African Slave Trade in 1787, which William Wilberforce used as a primary guide in his movement which ended slavery in Britain by 1807.  Of Newton's 78 years, only seven were spent in the slave trade.  Nevertheless he never stopped working for abolition, despite many of his friends calling for him to retire, in an age where he was vehemently mocked for his stance against slavery.

Thanks for that, I was actually uncertain and didn’t spend a lot of time looking for back up on it. My initial thought was that it was a truly repentant poem / testimony. My use of the hymn along with the eyes was originally to say one is sacrosanct as a spiritual hymn of repentance and the eyes is nothing like that but equally as important to me personally. And even with that I must be willing to let go of the eyes if its that harmful to my fellow UT grads and that’s what will make their lives better.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Taking the words "you cannot get away from night til early in the morn" and thinking they somehow implicate slavery is laughable.

To be frank, some of the students have been sold a bill of goods on this one.  A professor, who admits being ambivalent about the song, exposed them to the racial factoids and his imprimatur was basically "QED racist."

To SaucyJack's questions, the items seem to be as follows:

• the phrase "Eyes of Texas" was President Prather's paraphrase of Robt. E. Lee speaking as President of W&L (the eyes of the South are upon you).
• the music is I've Been Working on The Railroad, which has racist lyrics in its original or an early variant
• the song was first performed at a (what I really understand to be "the") student musical variety show that at the time was a minstrel show

All of those things are at least one degree of separation away from the song itself.  There is no evidence that the song itself was written to demean or disparage blacks in any way shape or form.  There is no hidden meaning, no double-entendre, no coded reference. 

I’m not talking about what is here, I’m talking about perception. Trumpers have a perception that wearing masks is communist. It isn’t true, but try to get them to see it a different way. 
 

I don’t think I disagree with you on a single thing you said. To me, it’s laughable. I’m a 48 year old white guy who has sang that song as long as I’ve been able to sing songs and I grew up in Texas, where if there were any racial undertones about it I guarantee you I would’ve heard about it in my family, so I don’t think it was meant in whatever way it’s being heard. But what you have to do is figure out how to convince people who do see it that way that it was just a mistaken understanding or they will not move past it and get on your page, and it will absolutely mean the end of The Eyes of Texas as our school song whether that happens tomorrow or a decade from now. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by NameAlreadyInUse

[TwiceHorn 31283]

7 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

I’m not talking about what is here, I’m talking about perception. Trumpets have a perception that wearing masks is communist. It isn’t true, but try to get them to see it a different way. 
 

I don’t think I disagree with you on a single thing you said. To me, it’s laughable. I’m a 48 year old white guy who has sang that song as long as I’ve been able to sing songs and I grew up in Texas, where if there were any racial undertones about it I guarantee you I would’ve heard about it in my family, so I don’t think it was meant in whatever way it’s being heard. But what you have to do is figure out how to convince people who do see it that way that it was just a mistaken understanding or they will not move past it and get on your page, and it will absolutely mean the end of The Eyes of Texas as our school song whether that happens tomorrow or a decade from now. 

I just think the perception is really poorly founded.  Statues, building names, Confederate flags, other symbols I get. I don't mind telling Trumpers they're full of shit  . . . .

I'm not for a majority imposing its will on an oppressed minority, when there's an aspect of oppression involved.

But the majority can't let the oppressed minority dictate everything, when there's not an aspect of oppression involved or only a self-declared one.  That kind of turns democracy on its head.  Not that there's a whole lot left, but still.

Edited June 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[troph 24563]

Dictate everything? When have black students and athletes dictated anything let alone everything. You’re one of my favs here I think you know that but I’m rather surprised by your takes here.

The tune is overtly racist, the origination of the lyrics has racism all around it, and like many whitewashed folk songs the lyrics seem benign to white people who have never been subject to racism and Black people say hey wait a minute. And then we say what’s the big deal? Well they say it’s a big deal and there is reason for them to conclude that it is so it is.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

16 minutes ago, troph said:

Dictate everything? When have black students and athletes dictated anything let alone everything. You’re one of my favs here I think you know that but I’m rather surprised by your takes here.

The tune is overtly racist, the origination of the lyrics has racism all around it, and like many whitewashed folk songs the lyrics seem benign to white people who have never been subject to racism and Black people say hey wait a minute. And then we say what’s the big deal? Well they say it’s a big deal and there is reason for them to conclude that it is so it is.

I disagree that musical notes, without lyrics, can be racist.  It doesn't convey that type of expression.

The lyrics dictate whether it has that kind of content or not.

The Eyes is a wholesale change of lyrics, not a whitewashing.

On the majority thing, I'm not relying on history of doing so.  I am relying on a remedial exception to majority rule in the case of historical oppression.  But I think there has to be some nexus to oppression when that exception gets applied.  One could say all music, or literature, or other art authored by white males prior to some date was the product of an imperialistic misogynistic slave culture and be mostly right, but finding oppression in that and banning it or similar, without something more overt, is just a bridge too far to me.  Comment on it, fine, attempt to deprive others of it, mmmmm no.

Edited June 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[troph 24563]

They used a racist tune. That’s undeniable. The lyrics themselves could be based on racist overtones that’s been explained. Those are two different points. The language itself was written at a time when similar language was used to incite fear in Black people to coerce compliance with White supremacist desires. Now it means school unity to us white folk but that’s not what’s going on here, others are saying that’s not what it means to us and they are not claiming harm without basis here. There is historical basis to conclude racism in the origins and lyrics of the song.

 

Look we disagree but I’m not telling you my white person thoughts I’m saying what the black community is telling us. I love the damn song, I personally would love no changes and for us to do all kinds of stuff BUT change the song. That’s what *I* want but I’m not here to say what I want I’m here in this space around the debate of the eyes to listen, understand and amplify black voices as an ally.

[formermav43 4599]

I do not accept that tunes are racist, especially within the context of folk music. Often, songs had multiple different versions of lyrics.  And a song might be sung to multiple tunes. Or different sets of lyrics could be sung to the same standard tune. You can see that phenomenon at work in a lot of 18th-19th century hymns, for instance, to this day.

Edited June 21, 2020 by formermav43

[TwiceHorn 31283]

I don't know.  It hit me funny from the get go.  Sometimes that changes over a bit of time, but so far it hasn't.

Maybe what I feel is that the claim of racist symbolism to me is sufficiently thin and contrived that I question the sincerity of those objecting to it.  At least insofar as they really object to it rather than are using it as some sort of political bargaining point.

I don't know, that's a brand-new thought that just spurted out.  I don't like questioning people's sincerity, as a rule, unless it's an obvious troll.

Especially not when my experiences have been so vastly different from those whose sincerity I might be questioning.

I'm trying to talk this out, with myself, with anyone who will listen/respond in good faith.  Thanks, troph.  You've changed me for the better.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I do not accept that tunes are racist, especially within the context of folk music. Often, songs had multiple different versions of lyrics.  And a song might be sung to multiple tunes. Or different sets of lyrics could be sung to the same standard tune. You can see that phenomenon at work in a lot of 18th-19th century hymns, for instance, to this day.

Funny, I was thinking of John Brown's body/Battle Hymn of the Republic.  I was familiar with the John Brown's Body variant, but honestly thought it was a pro-slave version because it seems to me to be celebrating the death of the abolitionist.  But it apparently is not.  Or maybe there was a variant that was.  Massively confusing.

Too bad Alan Lomax isn't around to sort some of this shit out.