Eyes of Texas

[bad_teammate 13132]

4 hours ago, BillyBadAss said:

BT, you keep saying that nobody matters in the conversation except the black athletes. I reject that contention. They certainly have an important voice in the conversation, but they aren't the only voice that belongs in the conversation. As someone else said, the University is a large community. 

"in the conversation"

A conversation isn't what the players requested.

That's what they are asking for. You either want the University to agree to their demands or you do not (maybe because you don't want to agree, or maybe because you want to engage the community in a learnings dialogue for stakeholders and other horseshit corporate speak designed by HR to cover the company's ass when discrimination happens).

They don't care about your opinion, and they shouldn't.

Quote

And truth matters. It's right there on the main building. "Ye Shall Know The Truth And The Truth Shall Make You Free". Others on this thread are trying to parse out and make sense of that truth for themselves. I'm glad you have it all figured out for yourself, but the issue is not 100% black and white (no pun intended) for many of us. Facts matter, context matters, intent matters. 

Ok, what is the issue of "truth" here that is relevant?

4 hours ago, troph said:

Actually I see a number of white alumni doing the exact opposite of what you say and those that are struggling through it are grappling with it. But keep screaming “fuck off with that bullshit” because you couldn’t stop if you wanted to.

They/we aren't being asked by the players to struggle or grapple. Their struggling and grappling IS their promotion of white supremacist institutionalism.

No one fucking cares what you (or I or anyone else here) wants or thinks about this when it comes to the question of acceding to the demands or not.

3 hours ago, Axiom of Choice said:

I don't care about the vast majority of traditions and I am not opposed to many of the proposed changes.  But the way decisions are being reached on these matters is not sustainable.

"If I'm not the center of attention and consideration, then what madness will follow!?!?"

Quote

Ultimately,  we cannot be held hostage by anyone who raises their hand over some sensitivity concern when the vast majority of the group believes the concern is minor/nonexistent.

Aggies.

Quote

Very much agree with all of this.  I tend to believe that there may be quite a bit of disinformation circulating in the locker room about the song.  It's not exactly a Plan II seminar in there.  

And... there it is.

@TwiceHorn is saying the quiet part loud.

 

 

[troph 24563]

You’re an argumentative asshole. I have said more on this thread to move the discussion forward than you and you’re telling me I’m wrong because I’m not telling folks to shut up and take it. It doesn’t matter the topic, you are supreme. You are all knowing, the holder of definitive truth. The master, the wise one, the wisest one. All hail BT!!

Student athletes don’t have power here not because they are black but because they are students not administrators. I fully expect they will gladly participate in a dialogue with the administration and I am already on record saying I think any decision making body on this issue should have a majority representation of black stakeholders across our university.

Yes we as a university community get to grapple with their demands. That’s humanity. What we DON’T get to do is dismiss their concerns as unfounded, trivial or unimportant.

Just fucking stop it already.

[bad_teammate 13132]

17 minutes ago, troph said:

Student athletes don’t have power here not because they are black but because they are students not administrators. I fully expect they will gladly participate in a dialogue with the administration and I am already on record saying I think any decision making body on this issue should have a majority representation of black stakeholders across our university.

So you don't think we should accede to the students' demands.

Cool.

I do.

Quote

Yes we as a university community get to grapple with their demands. That’s humanity. What we DON’T get to do is dismiss their concerns as unfounded, trivial or unimportant.

Fucking spare me. It's a song, not your god damned humanity.

Quote

Just fucking stop it already.

No, I'm right.

You're just mad because you are fighting the realization that you're Karening and demanding to speak to the student-athletes' manager instead of just being on their side.

Because you're not on their side.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Whatevs, Spanky wanna be. Your white man imposition is tiresome. 

[troph 24563]

BT you haven’t read what I’ve posted you argumentative fuck. I said the entirety of the black UT community should lead the way. Students, athletes, professors, historians, administrators, staff, alumni, all of the UT black community. current black student athletes should not be the only black voices heard.

 

I’ve said If the song must be trashed it must be trashed. I’ve convinced at least one poster here to rethink the idea that the song is racist. I’ve said it’s racist.

 

Why are you against hearing from black UT staff members? Huh? Tell me? Do they not matter? It’s a community wide issue all members of the community have a right to be heard and decisions should be made through a process that’s empowers the entire black UT community.

 

But you keep telling yourself you’re the only true progressive. Oh wise BT all knowing BT the only holder of progressive truth.

 

I begged you not to BT this thread and ruin it, but you did anyway. You are nothing but a troll. Nothing more than an ignorant self righteous troll. And you do your message a terrible disservice with your approach.

[bad_teammate 13132]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

I said the entirety of the black UT community should lead the way.

A serious question: Why?

Black student-athletes made the demand and I don't see any black UT constituency speaking out against them. Why do you need more black voices to come out in support of the student athletes? Who are the proper blacks to win your support?

Do you agree with TwiceHorn that the student-athletes are too stupid to take seriously? If not, why are you scolding me instead of calling out his obvious racism?

 

Quote

Why are you against hearing from black UT staff members? Huh? Tell me? Do they not matter?

I'm not. I'd love to read their thoughts.

But the student-athletes are demanding that we don't sing the song, and as long as that's what they want I don't give a shit what professors and admin have to say about it.

[bad_teammate 13132]

"Stakeholder"

fuck me running, this world isn't worth saving

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Spanky wanna be. Your white privilege is showing....just saying. You can't escape it all the live long day. Till Gabriel blows his horn.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Great allies you've got here, troph

[BillyBadAss 189]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

A conversation isn't what the players requested.

...

That's what they are asking for. You either want the University to agree to their demands or you do not (maybe because you don't want to agree, or maybe because you want to engage the community in a learnings dialogue for stakeholders and other horseshit corporate speak designed by HR to cover the company's ass when discrimination happens).

They don't care about your opinion, and they shouldn't.

 

Trying to learn about a topic and reason through it is not "corporate horseshit". It's called thinking. 

The players may or may not care about my opinion - I don't think you're the arbiter of that. Regardless, I'm trying to hear and understand theirs, that's what this conversation is about it.  

[bad_teammate 13132]

9 minutes ago, BillyBadAss said:

Trying to learn about a topic and reason through it is not "corporate horseshit". It's called thinking. 

Issue #1 - Let's talk all day on the message board, that's great.
Issue #2 - Let's not say "No, actual athletes impacted, let's not respect your wishes until we convene a committee."

The idea that those who make demands have to wait for a committee is the corporate horseshit. The use of inapplicable and designed-to-be-obfuscatory language like "stakeholder" is what corporations do to resist change while covering their asses for HR purposes. It's the parental equivalent of "we'll talk about it".

It's really simple: We don't sing The Eyes until the players tell us it's OK. That's all there is to it when it comes to the practical question.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Still interested in why no one else is calling out TwiceHorn's racism.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Spankywannabe says what???????????? JK, seriously we all know that Twicehorn just means that most student athletes ain't but dumb. Kind of like I know what you are even though you make yourself out be something else. Is it wrong to say this out loud till Gabriel blows his horn?

[bad_teammate 13132]

seriously we all know that Twicehorn just means that most student athletes ain't but dumb.

That is both untrue and racist.

[burntorangebongos 10681]

Yaaaay, I gave you something to hold on to. 

Maybe I'm just employing the same techniques you do..... that  your old white man self admitted to. 

[Bojack 2073]

4 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Still interested in why no one else is calling out TwiceHorn's racism.

A few reasons, I think.  It was at the end of the last page, late at night, and only 4 hours before your post.  Also, TwiceHorn doesn't have a history of posting racist shit that I've ever seen.  I take it that he's calling them dumb jocks instead of dumb blacks.  Racist? Could be.  Dismissive? Absolutely.  It does sound like the kind of thing a person that thinks shut up and dribble might say.  

[troph 24563]

[Covri 6231]

On 6/18/2020 at 3:16 PM, Tom said:

 

 

 If these are my choices I choose racism.

Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight

[formermav43 4599]

20 minutes ago, Covri said:

Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo
Texas Fight

I expect royalties for this.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by formermav43

[Covri 6231]

6 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

I expect royalties for this.

 

Lol and I read this whole thread to make sure it hadn’t already been done. And that included scrolling past bad_teamate’s walls of text.

[Fudge Nuggets 19151]

Damn, looks like some serious drankin’ was happening until early hours of the morning. You fucksticks know how to start off the week on a bad foot.

[troph 24563]

Nah BT showed up, that’s the extent of it.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

Wait--so @TwiceHorn is now a racist because he made a "dumb jocks" reference?  As someone who went to a high school where the football team was all white, I find that intensely funny.

And for the record, among jocks there is a definite hierarchy of dumbness.  Baseball players are generally regarded as the least dumb.  Hockey players are almost universally regarded as the most dumb.

Golfers aren't considered to be athletes.

[troph 24563]

Don’t leave me out, I’m racist too because I think there are a sizable number of white players on the team.

You’re also racist if you want to talk through this at all, even if you think UT’s black community should lead the conversation and determination about what changes need to be made.

We also now know that BT is the holder of all progressive truth at Surly.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 minute ago, Ghost of LL said:

And for the record, among jocks there is a definite hierarchy of dumbness.  Baseball players are generally regarded as the least dumb. 

XC/TF disagrees with your statement.

 

[troph 24563]

Joke: You know you’re a racist when.... BT tells you you are.

[bad_teammate 13132]

ten degrees to the left of center in good times
ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally

"love me, I'm a liberal"

I'll cry and change my FB profile pic in support if the players hold a BLM rally to yell at Cheeto Drumpf, but if they threaten my special song I'm looking in the attic for great-grandpa's klan robes.

1 hour ago, troph said:

Nah BT showed up, that’s the extent of it.

Let me know when/if you'd like to continue a discussion on the actual topic. I asked a bunch of questions about this topic for you to consider and I'll answer any on-topic questions you have for me.

For your convenience, I'll re-post them here:
- What did I post that was historically "inaccurate"?
- In what way was my initial characterization of the situation "hyperbole"?
- Why should " the entirety of the black UT community should lead the way"?
- Who are the proper blacks to win your support?
- Do you agree with TwiceHorn that the student-athletes are too stupid to take seriously?

24 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Wait--so @TwiceHorn is now a racist because he made a "dumb jocks" reference?  As someone who went to a high school where the football team was all white, I find that intensely funny.

Quote

And for the record, among jocks there is a definite hierarchy of dumbness.  Baseball players are generally regarded as the least dumb.  Hockey players are almost universally regarded as the most dumb.

A flourishing hockey team at your high school, huh? I appreciate that attempt to deracialize an obviously racist sentiment, but it's a losing battle because we're a thread full of white professionals where most of them are angrily defending the idea that the black Longhorn football players are too stupid to make a decision about a song.

And, of course, there's the actual reality of human life versus stupid stereotype jokes. And the reality is that the black student-athletes at the University of Texas are more than equipped mentally to understand what's happening. More equipped than us, I'd say, because they're actually black and know what it is to experience both overt and systemic racism.

If it's about who got the best grades, look at the pathetic state of this thread and how thoroughly the supposed brighter (aka, whiter) examples of Longhorn brainpower collapse when challenged.

But what do grades have to do with it? Is this a test about the specific historical details of the song?

[Ghost of LL 15492]

33 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

XC/TF disagrees with your statement.

 

Ok--you're right.  I forgot about cross-country and track.  I was focusing on the big team sports.

In that same vein, I vaguely remember swimmers having a rep as being pretty dumb.  Or maybe it was just that they were weird.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

Thanks for "having my back" on the racist issue, all.

My Plan II seminar comment was not intended to be racial, or really even to comment on intellect per se.  There are at least 85 guys in the football locker room of wildly varying intelligence and educational background.  I don't think as a group that they are particularly given to solemn contemplation and philosophical debate on an issue that has some subtlety to it.

Like any group of 85 18-22 year olds, there's probably a lot of rumor mongering and shit talking.  Look at their twitters ffs.

There's a reason they don't have 85 students in a Plan II seminar.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Ghost of LL 15492]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A flourishing hockey team at your high school, huh?

I didn't even understand most of that rambling post, so I'll just address what I did understand.  Yes--there was/is a flourishing hockey team at my high school.  I think most of the high schools in the Dallas suburbs have strong hockey programs.  There have been at least a couple NHL players coming from them.

[bad_teammate 13132]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

I didn't even understand most of that rambling post...

lol of course

Let me see if I can rephrase some things to make them more comprehensible. I'll make a bullet list of simple questions.

- Do you agree with me that the black student-athletes at the University of Texas are equipped mentally to understand what's happening?

- Do you think the joking stereotypes you had about your all-white classmates in your all-white high school are actually true and accurate?

- Do you think there is no racial component when a bunch of white people talk about the relative intelligence of groups of black people?

If those visually distanced questions contain too many words let me know. I'll rephrase them.

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thanks for "having my back" on the racist issue, all.

Mighty white of them, you might say.

Quote

I don't think as a group that they are particularly given to solemn contemplation and philosophical debate on an issue that has some subtlety to it.

Flatly stated with no ambiguity or attempt to sugar-coat it so I can have Internet friends, this is untrue and racist.

Quote

Like any group of 85 18-22 year olds, there's probably a lot of rumor mongering and shit talking.  Look at their twitters ffs.

Are you reading this thread?

[TwiceHorn 31283]

33 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thanks for "having my back" on the racist issue, all.

My Plan II seminar comment was not intended to be racial, or really even to comment on intellect per se.  There are at least 85 guys in the football locker room of wildly varying intelligence and educational background.  I don't think as a group that they are particularly given to solemn contemplation and philosophical debate on an issue that has some subtlety to it.

Like any group of 85 18-22 year olds, there's probably a lot of rumor mongering and shit talking.  Look at their twitters ffs.

There's a reason they don't have 85 students in a Plan II seminar.

 

I suppose, though, if you consider that maybe only the black players are discussing The Eyes of Texas in the locker room, then maybe there is a racial tinge to it.  That hadn't actually occurred to me.

I would assume that the locker room is an environment where the black players freely share their thoughts with the others.  Maybe I'm wrong there.

[bad_teammate 13132]

*listening to an "I've Been Working on the Railroad" copy popularized at a minstrel show and sung after football games*

"Ah, who could possibly expect the noble savage to truly comprehend the subtleties and mysteries of this transcendent experience of tradition and unity?"

[Eastwood 4394]

Y'all got Groverat'd.

[NameAlreadyInUse 5106]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I suppose, though, if you consider that maybe only the black players are discussing The Eyes of Texas in the locker room, then maybe there is a racial tinge to it.  That hadn't actually occurred to me.

I would assume that the locker room is an environment where the black players freely share their thoughts with the others.  Maybe I'm wrong there.

If you are wrong about that, our team has bigger problems than whether or not we should play the Eyes.

[Gatorubet 30116]

And for the record, among jocks there is a definite hierarchy of dumbness.  Baseball players are generally regarded as the least dumb. 

You insult the fencing team, they will demand satisfaction.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Axiom of Choice said:

There will not be a significant percentage of any group that voluntarily disenfranchises themselves, no matter how much you ramp up these tired shaming tactics.

I know that wanting to feel acceptance from the larger group and fearing social isolation are powerful and common motivators, but those things are uninteresting to me.

I like discussing issues and policies with as much raw clarity and honesty as possible, which is at odds with the motivations of others here, so we get into this endless loop:

"See, this is why we don't like you."
- "I know and don't care."
"Don't you want us to like you?"
- "No, I don't care."
"See, this is why we don't like you."

It's a common thing. I challenge the conventional wisdom in a direct, abrupt, and abrasive way and the thread becomes a series of different people abandoning all pretense of being on-topic to focus on me as an individual. That's not my preference, but it's a predictable result of upsetting the herd.

I'd like for people to prove me wrong and make me grow intellectually and morally by winning the arguments.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, Axiom of Choice said:

You have been convinced that you are not worthy of having a voice because of the color of your skin.  

This is literally language that Nazis use to groom angry young men.

Congratulations.

[Ghost of LL 15492]

52 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

lol of course

Let me see if I can rephrase some things to make them more comprehensible. I'll make a bullet list of simple questions.

- Do you agree with me that the black student-athletes at the University of Texas are equipped mentally to understand what's happening?

- Do you think the joking stereotypes you had about your all-white classmates in your all-white high school are actually true and accurate?

- Do you think there is no racial component when a bunch of white people talk about the relative intelligence of groups of black people?

If those visually distanced questions contain too many words let me know. I'll rephrase them.

Mighty white of them, you might say.

Flatly stated with no ambiguity or attempt to sugar-coat it so I can have Internet friends, this is untrue and racist.

Are you reading this thread?

Mentally equipped?  Uh, yeah.  They're mentally equipped.  But they may be operating under false premises.  Or they may be reaching incorrect conclusions from valid premises.  Or maybe not.  But it's fair to discuss the validity of their arguments and conclusions.

And yeah--swimmers are weird.  Hockey players are almost universally dumb.  And I say that as a former hockey player.

[Bojack 2073]

bad_teammate, sometimes all this reminds me of Derka 8 years ago defending Rick Barnes.  I mostly agree with you but you have no tact whatsoever about this shit and it does end up being personal.  The post just before your last is TwiceHorn admitting that he sees how his previous comment could be seen as having "a racial tinge to it."  It's pretty rare for someone to say something like that and it's not something that I've ever heard out of any racist.  It's exactly the element that's missing from discussions like this.  He's apparently thought it over and changed his mind somewhat or at least clarified what he meant.  

[TwiceHorn 31283]

26 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

If you are wrong about that, our team has bigger problems than whether or not we should play the Eyes.

Well, it brought to mind a Sam Acho quote, I think in that msn article I linked above that said something like "a lot of player hate that song, but how do you bring that up?"  Which does seem off to me, but maybe it is the state of things.  Hope not.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

4 minutes ago, Bojack said:

bad_teammate, sometimes all this reminds me of Derka 8 years ago defending Rick Barnes.  I mostly agree with you but you have no tact whatsoever about this shit and it does end up being personal.  The post just before your last is TwiceHorn admitting that he sees how his previous comment could be seen as having "a racial tinge to it."  It's pretty rare for someone to say something like that and it's not something that I've ever heard out of any racist.  It's exactly the element that's missing from discussions like this.  He's apparently thought it over and changed his mind somewhat or at least clarified what he meant.  

Yeah I didn't mean to intimate that the "locker room" is incapable of a debate, just that it is an environment in which it seems unlikely.  

This based on experience in all-white locker rooms with future Texas, Stanford, Harvard, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, and MIT students, among others, in them.

[elfenix 34171]

You probably thought this way because some people confuse the progressiveness of Austin as meaning UT itself is progressive, and that hasn’t been the case for the most part of our history.  I’ve said it before on this board (well shaggy) that UT really is an SEC school—the majority of our fan base is just too proud to admit it. 

The SEC invited us back when they invited Arky, aggy got wind of it at the 11th hour as we were saying sayonara, and complained to the lege that we needed to help them. It's the origin of their obsession with secsecsec.

[bad_teammate 13132]

48 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

The nazis wanted all people, regardless of color, gender, sexuality, religion, etc, to have an equal voice? 

No, the Nazis groom angry young men by saying that a multicultural nation has made them ashamed of their race.

Let me quote you again: "You have been convinced that you are not worthy of having a voice because of the color of your skin."

This is untrue. I obviously feel worthy of having a voice because I use it constantly and in defiance of people around me who don't like what I say. I don't think you're a Nazi, so your mirroring of their grooming rhetoric is disturbing and you should stop using it.

52 minutes ago, Bojack said:

It's pretty rare for someone to say something like that and it's not something that I've ever heard out of any racist. 

I didn't call him a racist. I said what he said was racist. Which it was.

Should people say racist statements are racist, or should people pretend to ignore them because it is bad for social morale?

44 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah I didn't mean to intimate that the "locker room" is incapable of a debate, just that it is an environment in which it seems unlikely.  

This based on experience in all-white locker rooms with future Texas, Stanford, Harvard, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, and MIT students, among others, in them.

More or less likely than any other gathering of people?

The coaches are supportive of the players. Wouldn't they know the situation in the UT locker room better than us?

[bad_teammate 13132]

5 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

You believe that many people should not have a say on certain issues based solely on their race, and that a select few, with race being a necessary criteria to be among the select, should be the ones to make decisions for us all. 

No, I don't. I think it's up to the players. There are many white players.

If at any point I said the white player shouldn't have a voice then please quote me.

You know who else makes false and dishonest claims about anti-white discrimination?

Quote

Somehow you do not see the hypocrisy in taking this position (which when abstracted is identical to race supremacists and nazi policy) while simultaneously claiming that all who disagree are giving racist and nazi like rhetoric.  

It's racist to say that a locker room heavy with black people isn't capable of thinking critically (especially when put up distinctly put up against a different group that is very noticeably not heavily black). It's Nazi rhetoric to claim anti-white discrimination and say that white people are shamed into silence because of their race.

I'm not calling anyone racist or a Nazi. I am (correctly) identifying the nature of statements.

The thing about implicit bias is that racism lives in all of us, even those of us who consider ourselves non/anti-racist and we should be very clear-eyed about confronting ourselves and others when these implicit biases crop up within us.

It doesn't make me popular, but it is what it is.

[bad_teammate 13132]

13 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

How do you think the decision should be made?  Single vote by all football players, majority of votes wins?   

I'm good with what happened here. Eagles spoke on behalf of the athletes and we should do what they ask.

It's already done, in my mind. It's all over but the shouting.

Edited June 22, 2020 by bad_teammate

[troph 24563]

Current players are only a tiny fraction of the black UT community with a vested interest. Those black voices can defer to current players if they want but white people shouldn’t silence or exclude others black voices if they speak up.

[bad_teammate 13132]

10 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Was Eagles elected to represent and speak for all athletes or given a sword in an aquatic ceremony?

No.

Are either of those necessary? Do you know how locker rooms work?

9 minutes ago, troph said:

Current players are only a tiny fraction of the black UT community with a vested interest.

They're the only ones required to stand and have the song sung at them. They're the ones currently on the field.

Whoever else has an interest, it's far less compelling than theirs.

Quote

Those black voices can defer to current players if they want but white people shouldn’t silence or exclude others black voices if they speak up.

Who is being silenced or excluded?

Everyone can speak all they want. Have a wonderful time speaking. Talk it up all day, but it doesn't matter unless you're a player on the field who has to face it.

Also, what are the black voices actually saying? Are you listening to them or just waiting for the ones to say what you want to hear?

[bad_teammate 13132]

*a bunch of black people say something I don't want to hear*

"I really want to hear from Black Voices, because I respect Bodies & Spaces and I'm an ally."

*more black voices saying the thing I don't want to hear*

"Hmm, it's a shame we aren't hearing from Black Voices."

[troph 24563]

No one should be required to sing the song, period. That should not have ever been an issue. And as for whether or not it’s our school song, everyone has a vested interest and I think the entirety of the black community should lead the way - alumni, students, athletes, staff, administrators, and professors.

But that’s all racist so feel free to ignore.