AISD's (and other districts) Plans for Schools Starting August 18

[Brisketexan 105142]

1 minute ago, babysdaddy said:

his posting style contributes to the problem he so desperately wants to fix.

Just highlighting the fact that you are conceding that we live in a world where it's not facts or data or actual experts in the actual field who persuade people to undertake a simple and logical path (or not), but rather, the "tone" of a random internet poster is the deciding factor.

If the difference between you lighting yourself on fire or not comes down to whether someone says:

"Please don't light yourself on fire.  That would be a bad outcome for everyone, including you.  I'm asking you nicely.  Pretty please with sugar on top, because I too love America and eagles and flags."

VS

"Holy shit!  Put down the match, you're covered in gasoline!  Whatever you do, don't light that match!  What the fuck are you doing striking that match right now?!? DON'T DO THAT!  ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY?!"

.....then man, we were turbofucked before I ever typed a single character on Surly.

[atomheartbevo 89670]

9 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

The CDC reported that the Swine Flu killed 1,180 children

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35367744

That article is from 2010, around the half-way point of the Swine Flu epidemic.  Three years later, this is what the same network was reporting that the CDC was saying

https://www.nbcnews.com/healthmain/americas-especially-hard-hit-2009-swine-flu-study-finds-2d11657478

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/flu-kills-105-children-most-not-vaccinated-cdc-says-1C9027561

Quote

Officials reported that six children died of flu last week, the CDC said. That brings the total to 105 for this season, compared to 34 last year. But in the 2010-2011 flu season 122 died, and when the H1N1 swine flu pandemic hit in 2009-2010, it killed 282 U.S. children.

And if you go to the actual CDC website, they revised it slightly up to 348 deaths.

A little confusing, but what about the National Institute for Health - they say 317 children:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21342902/

Quote

We compared pandemic influenza A (H1N1) (pH1N1)-associated deaths occurring from 15 April 2009 through 23 January 2010 with seasonal influenza-associated deaths occurring from 1 October 2007 through 14 April 2009, a period during which data collected were most comparable. Among 317 children who died of pH1N1-associated illness, 301 (95%) had a reported medical history. 

 Of those 301, 205 (68%) had a medical condition associated with an increased risk of severe illness from influenza. Children who died of pH1N1-associated illness had a higher median age (9.4 vs 6.2 years; P<.01) and longer time from onset of symptoms to death (7 vs 5 days, P<.01) compared with children who died of seasonal influenza-associated illness. The majority of pediatric deaths from pH1N1 were in older children with high-risk medical conditions. Vaccination continues to be critical for all children, especially those at increased risk of influenza-related complications.

And looking around the CDC website at what they are reporting during the 2009-2010 Swine Flu epidemic, from April 2009 through early 2010, which is time frame the article you mentioned used, I saw a report of 277 deaths in children.

So which NBC article do we believe?  Do we believe later reports the CDC and NIH put out?

If I had to guess, I'd say that the article you mentioned, from early 2010, during the Swine Flu pandemic, had a bunch of cases that were double-counted or something.

Or there was some overlap on the age ranges being used and they were counting 18 year-olds (18 and up were the largest group to get hit by it).

On a side note, the 65 and over group were the least hit by Swine Flu, because apparently they were exposed to a strain in their youth that gave them some immunity, and H1N! was apparently related to the Spanish Flu, so that's an interesting rabbit hole to dive down if you have a few hours.

[atomheartbevo 89670]

12 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

No, I know why we are doing all this which you were clear about when you immediately shifted to pointing out how deadly covid is to everyone but kids. 

You said it was deadlier to kids, but didn't cause us to do any of this.  I pointed out why we are doing all of this - covid has killed 600,000 more Americans than the Swine Flu epidemic did.  It also filled our hospitals to capacity at times.

Edit: To put this to rest: If Covid had only killed 12,500 Americans, we would not have shut down everything that we did, including schools.

Edited August 11, 2021 by atomheartbevo

[ZB'Tejas 593]

I'm not that concerned about my kids catching COVID and even less about them bringing it home to me and the wife. I was planning on send them masked anyway just to take an extra precaution. However, I think an even bigger benefit of the mask mandate is to make an environment that feels safer for teachers and employees to return and TEACH versus banding together and demanding that everything move to a virtual only option where so many of the kids would suffer. That would be a lot more damaging that simply wearing a mask.

[atomheartbevo 89670]

Districts mandating masks.

• Houston ISD
• Austin ISD
• Dallas ISD
• Fort Worth ISD
• Fort Bend ISD
• Spring ISD
• San Antonio ISD
• North East ISD (SA)
• Edgewood ISD (SA)
• Harlandale ISD (SA)
• Alamo Heights (SA)

Corpus sounds like they are about to join in, and some friends down in the Valley say they are about to, and possibly El Paso as well.

[swraith 346]

^^^
Does the above list mean that Leander, Cedar Park, Pluggerville, Round Rock ISD are all proceeding without mask mandates? Do the north Austin suburbs suck that much ?

[gsoda3 3262]

the pflugerville isd superintendent is a dan patrick crony.  that's about the nicest thing i can say about him.  he is completely unfit for the job.

[South Austin 52508]

The mask requirements are great, and I’m glad a lot of school districts are imposing them. But you’re still going to have periods of time when a mass of kids are packed in a cafeteria eating without a mask. Even in the masked school districts we’re going to see some rising numbers.

[Catpfish 618]

the pflugerville isd superintendent is a dan patrick crony.  that's about the nicest thing i can say about him.  he is completely unfit for the job.

And the school board is only concerned about getting the new schools named after themselves and building athletic complexes that no one wants. It's a really well run school district.

[hookemATL 11735]

Anecdotal but probably 90% mask adherence at our elementary in Leander ISD.
 

Best of luck and good health to all the Surly kiddos, teachers, and parents. We will get through this. 

[CooterBrown 18012]

The mask requirements are great, and I’m glad a lot of school districts are imposing them. But you’re still going to have periods of time when a mass of kids are packed in a cafeteria eating without a mask. Even in the masked school districts we’re going to see some rising numbers.

Our elementary school will eat outside spaced apart like they did this past year. Of course we’ll probably have rain daily so they’re forced inside.

[South Austin 52508]

10 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Our elementary school will eat outside spaced apart like they did this past year. Of course we’ll probably have rain daily so they’re forced inside.

My son's elementary school (Highland Park) will have two classes per grade eating outside, weather permitting.  I imagine that aside from rain, 100-degree days will move the students inside, so for the first month there's going to be kids packed inside the cafeteria on many days. 

[Muy Frio 182]

Our school district is going full steam ahead. I guess we’re the control group versus other districts mandating masks. 
 

16 hours ago, ZB&#x27;Tejas said:

I'm not that concerned about my kids catching COVID and even less about them bringing it home to me and the wife. I was planning on send them masked anyway just to take an extra precaution. However, I think an even bigger benefit of the mask mandate is to make an environment that feels safer for teachers and employees to return and TEACH versus banding together and demanding that everything move to a virtual only option where so many of the kids would suffer. That would be a lot more damaging that simply wearing a mask.

Are there teachers anywhere in Texas banding together and demanding virtual only?

Most teachers are vaccinated and my understanding is the ones that did virtual last year for the most part did not like it. 
 

 

[smoky 840]

Man, there will be a lot of data to sift through in a year or so regarding masks and infections in schools.

[Muy Frio 182]

15 minutes ago, smoky said:

Man, there will be a lot of data to sift through in a year or so regarding masks and infections in schools.

You would think there would be people working out a way to do prospective trials vs retrospective. 

[midtown 3345]

38 minutes ago, Muy Frio said:

Are there teachers anywhere in Texas banding together and demanding virtual only?

Teachers need to shut the hell up and do their freaking jobs.   Luckily in Texas they are largely castrated.   So tired of hearing how much they care for kids and then want to put kids back into virtual which is freaking horrendous. 

[mdmost 43001]

8 minutes ago, midtown said:

Teachers need to shut the hell up and do their freaking jobs.   Luckily in Texas they are largely castrated.   So tired of hearing how much they care for kids and then want to put kids back into virtual which is freaking horrendous. 

[CleverNickname 1310]

Fwiw at my wife's school (low income) they talked many parents into coming back in-person during last school year. Kids were struggling online, particularly those without a highly educated parent who could hover all day. Their scores outperformed similar schools who let folks coast online. 

But they want everyone to wear a mask.

[Brisketexan 105142]

1 minute ago, CleverNickname said:

Fwiw at my wife's school (low income) they talked many parents into coming back in-person during last school year. Kids were struggling online, particularly those without a highly educated parent who could hover all day. Their scores outperformed similar schools who let folks coast online. 

But they want everyone to wear a mask.

I think with a year of experience behind us, 90% of folks agree on that path: kids need to be back in-person, it's vastly superior, PARTICULARLY for the most vulnerable.  So, knowing that, we ALSO need to take all reasonable measures to protect their safety -- encourage vaccination of all eligible children (shit, offer it at school, with a parental permission slip, I say), and require mask wearing.

It's not perfect.  But it's the best choice of all the alternative paths.

[Beau Vine 54230]

I'm pretty torn between supporting a mask mandate that will/might help keep my kids safe, and opposing a mask mandate which would potentially put my kids' health at risk in order to own the libs.

Man, the dilemmas you face as a parent...

[BabaYaga 15298]

4 hours ago, South Austin said:

The mask requirements are great, and I’m glad a lot of school districts are imposing them. But you’re still going to have periods of time when a mass of kids are packed in a cafeteria eating without a mask. Even in the masked school districts we’re going to see some rising numbers.

When was the last time anyone was actually at school in the hallways between classes?  I had to drop something off for my freshman last year.  Once in the hallway - virtually all masks immediately drop below their noses, many came off all together or were hanging off their ears, etc.  It's a shit show.  Many teachers in the neighborhood confirmed as well.  

[gsoda3 3262]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

When was the last time anyone was actually at school in the hallways between classes?  I had to drop something off for my freshman last year.  Once in the hallway - virtually all masks immediately drop below their noses, many came off all together or were hanging off their ears, etc.  It's a shit show.  Many teachers in the neighborhood confirmed as well.  

i can see that happening in the middle and high schools, but in those cases you mostly have kids who are vaxxed or have the option to be vaxxed.  elementary kids are actually doing well with masks.  that's where my concern is.  

[Captainant 27669]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

When was the last time anyone was actually at school in the hallways between classes?  I had to drop something off for my freshman last year.  Once in the hallway - virtually all masks immediately drop below their noses, many came off all together or were hanging off their ears, etc.  It's a shit show.  Many teachers in the neighborhood confirmed as well.  

you're right, it's better we do abso-fucking-lutely nothing and just let COVID do it's thing amirite?? Anything less than a 100% effective and followed mitigation strategy is worthless and not worth pursuing - the strategy has been working so well for us and Florida so far /s

[utee94 15823]

10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

When was the last time anyone was actually at school in the hallways between classes?  I had to drop something off for my freshman last year.  Once in the hallway - virtually all masks immediately drop below their noses, many came off all together or were hanging off their ears, etc.  It's a shit show.  Many teachers in the neighborhood confirmed as well.  

Yeah, our kids' middle school eliminated lockers in an effort to minimize the time spent hanging out in crowded hallways, but I don't suspect it'll make a huge impact to the amount of close-quarters traffic in a given day.

But one thing to keep in mind, is the virus doesn't just hover in a cloud in the hallway for hours on-end.  In general you have to be pretty close to an infected person that is transmitting-- within 6 feet of them-- for an exposure time of 15 minutes or more, to inhale enough of the virus to become infected.

So it's a lot more likely to transmit at school from an infected person whose desk is near yours for an entire 50-minute-long class, even fully masked, or someone who sits next to you at lunch for 30 minutes, unmasked.

The crowded hallway pictures have never really been anything more than doom porn.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by utee94

[BabaYaga 15298]

4 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yeah, our kids' middle school eliminated lockers in an effort to minimize the time spent hanging out in crowded hallways, but I don't suspect it'll make a huge impact to the amount of close-quarters traffic in a given day.

But one thing to keep in mind, is the virus doesn't just hover in a cloud in the hallway for hours on-end.  In general you have to be pretty close to an infected person that is transmitting-- within 6 feet of them-- for an exposure time of 15 minutes or more, to inhale enough of the virus to become infected.

So it's a lot more likely to transmit at school from an infected person whose desk is near yours for an entire 50-minute-long class, even fully masked, or someone who sits next to you at lunch for 30 minutes, unmasked.

The crowded hallway pictures have never really been anything more than doom porn.

 

There's a lot of assumptions there.  Kids pass tons of crap back and forth at school, most I'd imagine when in close proximity and socializing before/after school and between classes.  And to come back full circle, they sit quite close at lunch talking.  They share food.  They hug.  They tussle.  They kiss.  

[utee94 15823]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's a lot of assumptions there.  Kids pass tons of crap back and forth at school, most I'd imagine when in close proximity and socializing before/after school and between classes.  And to come back full circle, they sit quite close at lunch talking.  They share food.  They hug.  They tussle.  They kiss.  

Yes, that's what I noted.  The way this virus passes, it's a lot more likely to spread in the lunchroom, or sitting next to someone's desk for an hour, than it is to randomly spread in a hallway.  

As far as sharing food or kissing-- deliberately trading bodily fluids is far from a random act.

I'm not saying it doesn't spread at school, it can and does.  My 13yo daughter caught it at school at some point last Spring, even fully masked.  She was asymptomatic and we had no idea, until I had her tested for antibodies before we got her vaccinated.  So it can absolutely spread at school even when taking precautions.

But the crowded hallway pictures are doom porn. 

[BabaYaga 15298]

3 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Yes, that's what I noted.  The way this virus passes, it's a lot more likely to spread in the lunchroom, or sitting next to someone's desk for an hour, than it is to randomly spread in a hallway.  

As far as sharing food or kissing-- deliberately trading bodily fluids is far from a random act.

I'm not saying it doesn't spread at school, it can and does.  My 13yo daughter caught it at school at some point last Spring, even fully masked.  She was asymptomatic and we had no idea, until I had her tested for antibodies before we got her vaccinated.  So it can absolutely spread at school even when taking precautions.

But the crowded hallway pictures are doom porn. 

Not sure of the Delta variant, but so many kids were asymptomatic because (according to this study) the reduced number of ACE2 receptors in children relative to adults in their lungs.  Not sure how well receive this is, but it seems interesting with what we know how the virus binds and spreads in the lungs.

Our kids had it too, zero symptoms other that the daughter lost taste/smell for a couple of days.  Wife and I had mild cough for a week or so.  Chocked it up to allergies but confirmed with a PCR test on her.  

Covid and children

Quote

This finding suggests that children seem to have similar rates of becoming infected compared with middle-aged adults following close contact with a person infected with SARS-CoV-2.

 Further evaluation of ACE2 expression at the single-cell level in children could help explain whether a lower percentage of ACE2-expressing cells or a decrease in expression in ACE2 expression per cell is related to lower ACE2 expression in nasal epithelium, as noted in children identified by Bunyavanich et al.⁴

 

[Brisketexan 105142]

10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's a lot of assumptions there.  Kids pass tons of crap back and forth at school, most I'd imagine when in close proximity and socializing before/after school and between classes.  And to come back full circle, they sit quite close at lunch talking.  They share food.  They hug.  They tussle.  They kiss.  

yep, all of those things happen.  Which are opportunities for transmission.  But many other opportunities for transmission are limited by wearing masks.

Speed limits don't stop all car wrecks.  But they prevent a fair number of them, and also help make some of the rest less severe.  It is a low-cost option that has actual benefit.  Same with mask wearing.  Don't engage in the "Nirvana logical fallacy" -- if something can't achieve perfect results, it is meritless.  That's....well....a fallacy.

[BabaYaga 15298]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

yep, all of those things happen.  Which are opportunities for transmission.  But many other opportunities for transmission are limited by wearing masks.

Speed limits don't stop all car wrecks.  But they prevent a fair number of them, and also help make some of the rest less severe.  It is a low-cost option that has actual benefit.  Same with mask wearing.  Don't engage in the "Nirvana logical fallacy" -- if something can't achieve perfect results, it is meritless.  That's....well....a fallacy.

This is your assumption.  Not mine.  Never did I say if it's not perfect don't engage.  Lots and lots of straw there.  What I'm saying is I'm not optimistic this is going to really amount to much in terms of prevention.  Nor are masks themselves risk free.  Set aside psychological reasons for a minute and focus just on the physical.  Dirty, reused masks collecting dozens and dozens of bugs and junk (last study I saw that tested the collected particulate matter in masks).  We try to rarely reuse, but it does happen.  You have hypoxia concerns as well.  These are fairly benign issues in my mind, but let's not pretend masks are 100% risk free either.  We just balance and prioritize which is worse.  

[Eastwood 4394]

36 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There's a lot of assumptions there.  Kids pass tons of crap back and forth at school, most I'd imagine when in close proximity and socializing before/after school and between classes.  And to come back full circle, they sit quite close at lunch talking.  They share food.  They hug.  They tussle.  They kiss.  

The issue is that when the school does nothing right out of the gate, that gives me the impression that they will do nothing in the future. For grades 7-12, I have less concern because those kids can get vaccinated. Then it truly is a family choice whether they want to take active steps to prevent infection. Grades K-6 have no choice and are at the mercy of the public school system to accommodate as many people as possible. Those accommodations include, at a bare minimum, masking up everyone. Ideally, they would mask up everyone, break up lunches into smaller groups, spend more time outside, and social distance. But a true mask mandate that is actually enforced and done in good faith is a showing of good faith that the school district recognizes that there is mounting evidence that younger children may be affected, we will have plenty more evidence, one way or the other, after a month of school, and the school district will be willing to do something in the future, if needed.

Show me nothing, I will expect nothing and my family will go to great lengths at our own expense to do something. As someone who pays a lot of property taxes, I would appreciate, and actually expect, the public school system to do it with the expense I already paid. Withdrawing my children does have an impact on the ISD's bottom line for next year. But, we are where we are and in the end and my accountability begins and ends with my family. I will do what is necessary to get them through what is, by all accounts, a time in our nation's history that will stand out in history books.

[BabaYaga 15298]

5 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

But a true mask mandate that is actually enforced and done in good faith is a showing of good faith that the school district recognizes that there is mounting evidence that younger children may be affected, we will have plenty more evidence, one way or the other, after a month of school, and the school district will be willing to do something in the future, if needed.

This is where I'm at.  I have seen very little evidence these kids or the schools police these policies with any efficacy.  Jesus, even in the yearbook there were tons of pics with kids in the classroom with their little noses sticking out.  It's better than nothing.  Fine.  But I lean a lot more toward "nothing" than "better".

It's going to spread.  What I'm paying attention to are the case severity numbers.  The original strain did very, very little damage to children.  My hope is the Delta follows suit.  

[Brisketexan 105142]

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

What I'm saying is I'm not optimistic this is going to really amount to much in terms of prevention. 

I don't think they're going to be a cure-all, for sure.  But I think they will help materially.  Maybe on the low end of "materially," but materially nonetheless.

14 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Nor are masks themselves risk free.  Set aside psychological reasons for a minute and focus just on the physical.  Dirty, reused masks collecting dozens and dozens of bugs and junk (last study I saw that tested the collected particulate matter in masks).

I think we've pretty comfortably seen that the risks of wearing a mask (it gets dirty, and dirty stuff is bad for you) are de minimis, certainly compared with the benefit of their function of blocking droplets.

15 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You have hypoxia concerns as well. 

No.  You do not.  No rational person has hypoxia concerns.  Masks have been worn by doctors and other health care professionals for well over a century, often while the perform highly complex, life-and-death procedures.  People working in clean facilities, painters, drywallers, etc., have worn masks in the workplace for decades.  Nobody is dropping from hypoxia.  Yeah, if you have a shitty mask, and/or go try to run the 1500 meter hurdles while wearing a good mask, you may well not get enough oxygen.  That just isn't in play here.  If you wear a standard surgical mask, you will not suffer from hypoxia.

[Post Oak 20213]

We have a meet the teacher tonight.  I think we have like 10mins before they shuffle us out and shuffle others in.  I'm going to be asking a ton of questions to the teacher and the principal if I can find her.

If I don't like the set up I don't know what I'm going to do.

[BabaYaga 15298]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think we've pretty comfortably seen that the risks of wearing a mask (it gets dirty, and dirty stuff is bad for you) are de minimis, certainly compared with the benefit of their function of blocking droplets.

That's not really true.  I forget the study (and I'm paraphrasing), but a twice-worn mask, in terms of what it traps to the users face, is worse than no mask at all.  With these kids, reusing the same mask time and time again is almost a given.  We have a box by the front door of new masks, but they don't always take them.  

 

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  You do not.  No rational person has hypoxia concerns.

Apparently the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics does.  Listen, I'm not anti mask.  We wear when required to.  But let's not pretend that they are risk free either.  

CO2 levels in children

[Nivek 16930]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I think with a year of experience behind us, 90% of folks agree on that path: kids need to be back in-person, it's vastly superior, PARTICULARLY for the most vulnerable.  So, knowing that, we ALSO need to take all reasonable measures to protect their safety -- encourage vaccination of all eligible children (shit, offer it at school, with a parental permission slip, I say), and require mask wearing.

It's not perfect.  But it's the best choice of all the alternative paths.

I am fine with virtual option.   I can manage it, my kids can manage it, and it is a shit load of more work for me, but well, I love my kids and I like being a part of their education, and more to the point, I can afford it.    Yeah, the education quality is overall lower, but if you put in the effort, you can mitigate that significantly.    I could send my son to school and know that he would be safe (9). Trauma Babe recommended a mask and my son wears both that mask (Gata) and a cloth on top without complaint.    

The psychological harm being done to my kid is not the mask.  It is knowing that other adults are fucking morons and their kids are little morons in training.   He gets a first hand fucking view of that.    The respect for elders simply for being elders is gone.  All because of a bunch of cunts.  

[Buzzrock 14920]

yep, all of those things happen.  Which are opportunities for transmission.  But many other opportunities for transmission are limited by wearing masks.
Speed limits don't stop all car wrecks.  But they prevent a fair number of them, and also help make some of the rest less severe.  It is a low-cost option that has actual benefit.  Same with mask wearing.  Don't engage in the "Nirvana logical fallacy" -- if something can't achieve perfect results, it is meritless.  That's....well....a fallacy.

You should probably find a better example than speed limits to make your point.

[Buzzrock 14920]

We’ve been back to school for 1.5 weeks in some large Atlanta counties and already have classes going virtual due to outbreaks. Masks were optional. Our county is masks required and started Monday, we’ll see how it goes.

[Brisketexan 105142]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Apparently the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics does.  Listen, I'm not anti mask.  We wear when required to.  But let's not pretend that they are risk free either.  

CO2 levels in children

Yeah.....take 5 minutes to read the comments to that article to spot the umpteen flaws with that "research letter."

And never mind the literal century's worth of data showing people capably conducting BRAIN SURGERY and shit like that while wearing surgical masks.

[yoladu 4094]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I think with a year of experience behind us, 90% of folks agree on that path: kids need to be back in-person, it's vastly superior, PARTICULARLY for the most vulnerable.  So, knowing that, we ALSO need to take all reasonable measures to protect their safety -- encourage vaccination of all eligible children (shit, offer it at school, with a parental permission slip, I say), and require mask wearing.

It's not perfect.  But it's the best choice of all the alternative paths.

it's pretty much this simply.

My kids are in high school and I was hoping we could get away from masking this year (was hoping the vaccine for 12 and up would be a game changer), because I do think it is easier for kids to socialize, be open to meeting new people, etc...

....but with current conditions (delta) going on, being unmasked in school seems pretty damn reckless.

Get vaccinated (if 12 or up), mask up, and GO to school.

[Brisketexan 105142]

4 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

You should probably find a better example than speed limits to make your point.

Why?  They unquestionably make our roads safer.  Remember, the comparison point is "speed limits vs. no speed limits."  Lift all speed limits on our local roads, and you and I know that 1) we'll see more accidents, and 2) they'll be more severe, than if we kept speed limits.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Brisketexan

[Captainant 27669]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's not really true.  I forget the study (and I'm paraphrasing), but a twice-worn mask, in terms of what it traps to the users face, is worse than no mask at all.  With these kids, reusing the same mask time and time again is almost a given.  We have a box by the front door of new masks, but they don't always take them.  

 

Apparently the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics does.  Listen, I'm not anti mask.  We wear when required to.  But let's not pretend that they are risk free either.  

CO2 levels in children

Interesting study to choose to link. From some of the peer review comments on the study, authored by MD's:

Quote

John Murphy, PhD CIH ROH | University of Toronto

The lack of methodological detail makes it unclear as to why the researchers concluded that they were measuring the concentration of inhaled CO2 as opposed to the concentration of exhaled CO2 or a mix of both. But the real question the author's don't clearly address is "Why does it matter?". The paper begins by stating "The question whether nose and mouth covering increases carbon dioxide in inhaled air is crucial.", and infer that it the reason is that the jurisdiction's regulatory limit for the concentration of CO2 in ambient indoor air is 2000 ppm, and that mask use results in overexposure in relation to that limit, which presumably is considered hazardous. Such a line of reasoning is mistaken. Indoor ambient CO2 limits are not set because CO2 itself is hazardous above those values, but because elevated CO2 correlates with elevated constellations of a range of indoor air pollutants that cause increasing occupant discomfort as levels rise. The CO2 indoor air standard is ultimately a ventilation effectiveness guideline, not a health-based exposure limit. It should also be recognized that any re-breathed CO2 is endogenous, and such air is qualitatively different from the ambient indoor air for which CO2 is solely a proxy indicator of composition, and to which the CO2 indoor air guidelines only apply.

Quote

Authors:
Eve Bloomgarden,MD (Northwestern University, Co-founder IMPACT4hc), Elisabeth Marnik PhD (Husson University, author of Science Whiz Liz),
Alison Bernstein PhD (Michigan State University, Co-founder SciMoms and MommyPhD), Rebecca J. Heick, PhD (Augustana College, Author of Your Friendly Neighborhood Epidemiologist)

JAMA is a well respected peer reviewed journal. This research letter has extensive flaws and repercussions that may lead to very real harm for children. It is disappointing to see that this research letter was published in this journal.

First, this is written by individuals with known bias against masks and other non-pharmaceutical interventions against COVID, as well as vaccinations. The lead author is a psychologist with no training pertaining to this area of research.

Second, there are extensive methodological issues. They used a G100 CO2 incubator analyzer, which is made for measuring CO2 levels in incubators. There is no data supporting the use of G100 as a valid and accurate instrument for the type of measurement used in this study. They also did not address the amount of dead space within the mask that could be further making their measurements inconsistent or unreliable. It is also unclear how they could reliably distinguish between inhaled and exhaled air using the described methods.

Third, their results presented are incomplete and difficult to interpret as many previous commenters have noted. Their trial protocol included in supplement 2 outlines that they would also collect blood oxygenation, heart rate and breathing frequency. Yet none of this data was included in this letter. Their results also show almost the same CO2 readings for both surgical masks and respirator FFP2 masks. If their findings were accurate you would expect a difference, given the differing filter capabilities. It is also unclear why their measurement of CO2 in baseline inhaled air is different than in ambient air.

Fourth, there was also no discussion regarding whether these results are clinically meaningful. They’re using flawed measurements obtained with a device that was not designed for this purpose and stating that this demonstrates harm. There were no actual health metrics reported, like pO2 or pCO2 and no discussion of the actual data needed to confirm clinical significance. These would be more reliable indicators of potential harmful effects on children.

Overall, this paper misinterprets inappropriately collected data leading to incorrect, distorted, and dangerous conclusions.
 

Quote

Amy Houtrow, MD, PhD, MPH | University of Pittsburgh

As a member of the editorial boards for three journals I understand the challenges in evaluating the scientific rigor and validity of submitted manuscripts. In my experience it has become increasingly difficult to secure high quality peer reviews. Nonetheless, the fact that this manuscript made it through editorial screening, peer-review, and approval is concerning. The need for the study was not well justified, the premise biased, the methodology flawed and thus the resultant data unhelpful and the conclusions inappropriate. I fear that those with political incentive to demonize mask-wearing will use this study as ‘scientific evidence’ to undermine public health strategies.

 

And listen. You may not say it, but you're antimask. Your posts are consistently putting up a screen of bad information for uninformed people to point to to justify their bad health decisions. 

People like you and GRMuyHarrisonWallace are why we're in this mess of believing ANYTHING that confirms your bias because of a complete lack of intellectual curiosity to dig deeper into what you're reading.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Captainant

[BabaYaga 15298]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....take 5 minutes to read the comments to that article to spot the umpteen flaws with that "research letter."

And never mind the literal century's worth of data showing people capably conducting BRAIN SURGERY and shit like that while wearing surgical masks.

Children conduct brain surgery?

[Brisketexan 105142]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Children conduct brain surgery?

Hells yeah....

[Beau Vine 54230]

45 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

That's not really true.  I forget the study (and I'm paraphrasing), but a twice-worn mask, in terms of what it traps to the users face, is worse than no mask at all.  With these kids, reusing the same mask time and time again is almost a given.  We have a box by the front door of new masks, but they don't always take them.  

 

Apparently the Journal of the American Medical Association Pediatrics does.  Listen, I'm not anti mask.  We wear when required to.  But let's not pretend that they are risk free either.  

CO2 levels in children

Lulz.  

Maybe you should click on that link again and look carefully.

[atomheartbevo 89670]

5 hours ago, Muy Frio said:

Most teachers are vaccinated and my understanding is the ones that did virtual last year for the most part did not like it. 

That would be an understatement.  Most of them fucking loathed it - the software was shit and laggy, parents had their own things going, the kids who did well were the kids who normally did well, and the kids that suffered really needed somebody right there with them.  

Idiots claiming teachers are getting together and demand schools go virtual here need to log the fuck off of Facebook.

Hell, at my youngest kid's former school, when they asked for somebody to handle some virtual kids this fall, it was basically crickets chirping. 

[atomheartbevo 89670]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

  You have hypoxia concerns as well.  

Know how I know you've never worked in the medical profession or in the high tech industry or as a firefighter, etc.?  I spent a year working in a clean facility, and had to wear a mask for much of my workday.  It never once was a problem, and the only person who had an issue was somebody who was claustrophobic and the hood and mask combo would occasionally freak them the fuck out.

Protip: Don't use Saran Wrap as a cheap and easy mask, and spend a couple of bucks extra for a decent mask.

[atomheartbevo 89670]

By the way, the few thousand virtual learners in AISD won't start until I think the 24th.

Also, masks gets butts back in seats.

https://www.kut.org/education/2021-08-11/more-than-700-students-pull-out-of-virtual-learning-after-austin-isd-announces-mask-mandate

Quote

After Superintendent Stephanie Elizalde announced Monday that masks would be required in Austin ISD schools this year, 757 students opted out of virtual classes to attend school in person.

That is why school districts are going with masks and willing to risk the fines.

[JesusSweatDuck 17781]

46 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Lulz.  

Maybe you should click on that link again and look carefully.

What all the "retracted" background isn't a sign that the study is horse shit paste?

[hookemATL 11735]

1 hour ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

What all the "retracted" background isn't a sign that the study is horse shit paste?

He paid for the copy of the study.  That removes the watermark and makes the study fully credible!!!!

[BabaYaga 15298]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Know how I know you've never worked in the medical profession or in the high tech industry or as a firefighter, etc.?  I spent a year working in a clean facility, and had to wear a mask for much of my workday.  It never once was a problem, and the only person who had an issue was somebody who was claustrophobic and the hood and mask combo would occasionally freak them the fuck out.

Protip: Don't use Saran Wrap as a cheap and easy mask, and spend a couple of bucks extra for a decent mask.

I'm not talking about adults.  There are now multiple papers that cite prelim research on potentially dangerous level of CO2 in small children wearing masks all day.  These papers obviously need to be vetted, but it's not fair to spout out blanket statements that masks are 100% risk free.