SCOTUS rulings 2020

[hayden_horn 11360]

yeah, here's some scoop on kavanaugh:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/29/politics/brett-kavanaugh-supreme-court-abortion-trump-documents/index.html

Quote

(CNN)Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh urged his colleagues in a series of private memos this spring to consider avoiding decisions in major disputes over abortion and Democratic subpoenas for President Donald Trump's financial records, according to multiple sources familiar with the inner workings of the court.

In the abortion controversy, Kavanaugh wanted the justices to sidestep any ruling on the merits of a Louisiana law that could have closed abortion clinics in the state, CNN has learned. The case marked the first time in four years the justices were taking up the heated subject. Kavanaugh's plan would have ensured the law -- a credentialing mandate for doctors who perform abortions -- would not go into immediate effect but also ensured that the justices would not have to put their own views on the line.

ABOUT THIS SERIES
Joan Biskupic takes you inside the Supreme Court with exclusive new details about how the court handled its pivotal term that dealt with LGBTQ rights, abortion and investigating President Donald Trump.

The same would have been true in the fight between Trump and the US House of Representatives. Kavanaugh's idea -- presented to the justices in an internal memo and conversations, sources said -- would have had the high court avoid the subpoena fight over Trump financial documents, based on the judicial principle that courts should stay out of cases involving fundamentally political questions.

While that strategy could have meant the President had to hand over his documents to congressional investigators, sources say the personal fate of Trump did not come up in internal conversations.

Throughout the recent court session, as Kavanaugh revealed a desire to avoid certain thorny dilemmas, the newest justice also demonstrated a pattern of trying to publicly appeal to both sides. His style of accommodation was on display in recent disputes over gay and transgender workers and, separately, undocumented immigrants who came to the US as children.
The details, revealed as part of CNN's series on the justices' private deliberations, show how Kavanaugh is approaching his role on the bench. Behind closed doors, he looks to please dueling factions of the court as he seeks to move beyond the angry and defiant image he projected in 2018.

more at the link

[Bama Chick 28596]

But but but activist judges!!!!

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

11 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

But but but activist judges!!!!

 

You realize this isn’t an activist position he’s taking in either sense, right?  He’s essentially saying let’s keep status quo the same and let’s keep the court out amid a fight between the leg and exec branches, right?  
Did you read the article?  

[TwiceHorn 31283]

16 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

But but but activist judges!!!!

 

Lobbying to deny cert is about as "unactivist" as one can be.  If there's no decision, there can't be much activism.

Edited July 29, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Lobbying to deny cert is about as "unactivist" as one can be.  If there's no decision, there can't be much activism.

Seriously, the next time she makes a point that demonstrates the understanding of anything not totally and completely partisan, or that demonstrated an iota of nuance will be the first. Just a criminally stupid take.  Not because of any ideological disagreement but basic misunderstanding of words being used. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[TwiceHorn 31283]

4 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Seriously, the next time she makes a point that demonstrates the understanding of anything not totally and completely partisan, or that demonstrated an iota of nuance will be the first. Just a criminally stupid take.  Not because of any ideological disagreement but basic misunderstanding of words being used. 

In most of the cases where Kavanaugh allegedly lobbied to deny cert, the lower court rulings would have been unfavorable to his ostensible position.  Maybe he wanted to take them up later, with a conservative super-majority or something.  Hard to tell, there.

The notable exception would have been that absolutely tarded decision by the Fifth Circuit on the Louisiana abortion law.  I really weep for the Fifth Circuit.  It has gone from one of the leading regional circuits to a conservative version of the Ninth Circuit (as told by conservatives).  It's horrible.

Edited July 29, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

In most of the cases where Kavanaugh allegedly lobbied to deny cert, the lower court rulings would have been unfavorable to his ostensible position.  Maybe he wanted to take them up later, with a conservative super-majority or something.  Hard to tell, there.

The notable exception would have been that absolutely tarded decision by the Fifth Circuit on the Louisiana abortion law.

He’d have to be a complete moron to believe there will ever be a more favorable conservative majority than is on the court right now as his boy trump is clearly going down. 
it’s much more likely that, like Roberts, he’s not the ideologue everyone on the left feared he is. 
it would merely be the eleventy thousandth example of an ostensible conservative being appointed to the court only to find out he/she actually isn’t the firebrand they were billed as. 

[wildcat09 29258]

I haven't read the full articles yet, but if he urged the Court to deny cert in June Medical I would say that's absolutely a form of judicial activism and a pretty extreme one, though operating under the guise of judicial restraint. Urging the Court to permit a lower court to blatantly overturn a decision that SCOTUS had just made a couple of years earlier can hardly be said to be a demonstration of restraint. 

Also, Wulaw, if you're going to argue that Roberts isn't a partisan ideologue we're going to have to fight.

[Foosters 17734]

33 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Seriously, the next time she makes a point that demonstrates the understanding of anything not totally and completely partisan, or that demonstrated an iota of nuance will be the first. Just a criminally stupid take.  Not because of any ideological disagreement but basic misunderstanding of words being used. 

Damn man. I haven't seen you this upset since someone implied Roger Stone's commutation was improper.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

4 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I haven't read the full articles yet, but if he urged the Court to deny cert in June Medical I would say that's absolutely a form of judicial activism and a pretty extreme one, though operating under the guise of judicial restraint. Urging the Court to permit a lower court to blatantly overturn a decision that SCOTUS had just made a couple of years earlier can hardly be said to be a demonstration of restraint. 

Also, Wulaw, if you're going to argue that Roberts isn't a partisan ideologue we're going to have to fight.

Fight on. He didn’t pull the trigger on dumping Obamacare and he was on the liberal side of a couple other decisions that’s pissed off conservatives bigly. 
I’m not saying he’s not conservative, but if you think he’s always a reliable vote for the GOP you haven’t been paying attention.  Most conservatives would like that pick back. I wager to say they will someday say the same about Gorsuch and Kavanagh. Neither one of those are a reliable vote in the way Scalia, Thomas or Alito were/are. 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:59 PM, wildcat09 said:

 

Short of re-establishing chattel slavery, I have a hard time thinking of something more evil a state could do.

I still think Georgia should be a debtors colony. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

5 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Damn man. I haven't seen you this upset since someone implied Roger Stone's commutation was improper.

If there were any trumpets around I’d say the same to them. They are all gone. I

got more mega and hate mail for mocking and ridiculing Trumpers in 2016 than everything I’ve done on the internet in the other 18 years combined. I don’t like fundamental obfuscation or misstatements of facts, nor insipid partisanship. 
I don’t have any opinion on roger stone other than if he’s in Trumps orbit he’s probably an idiot and crook and I’ve certainly never share an opinion of him online. 
About a month ago I agree with Twice on a legal point he made about the judge refusing to toss some other Trump crooks case because it was a smart legal point, not because I care about anyone in is orbit getting flayed. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Fight on. He didn’t pull the trigger on dumping Obamacare and he was on the liberal side of a couple other decisions that’s pissed off conservatives bigly. 
I’m not saying he’s not conservative, but if you think he’s always a reliable vote for the GOP you haven’t been paying attention.  Most conservatives would like that pick back. I wager to say they will someday say the same about Gorsuch and Kavanagh. Neither one of those are a reliable vote in the way Scalia, Thomas or Alito were/are. 

Disagree. Kennedy was the perfect justice for what the true controllers of the Republican Party want. 
 

He saved abortion rights eh? You think they don’t want that? Without abortion still on the table millions of rubes would stop voting against their own economic self interest. Rest assured, the republicans will never eliminate this issue. They need the carrot.
 

Citizens United? Greatest decision the Republican corporate machine ever got, authored to the extreme by Kennedy.

He was always a fraud and a shill for the true owners of the Republican Party. He was their most reliable vote for whatever corporate republican interests wanted. The fact that some consider him to be a moderate is a joke. He moderated things if his owners wanted him to. 
 

Roberts has taken up his mantle. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by JimmyJames

[washparkhorn 9935]

Judicial activism, judicial restraint, and judicial minimalism are intertwined.  "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Neil Peart v. Freewill, 7 Rush 2,  (Can., 1980). 

And Roberts likes his role as the holder of the Kennedy/O'Connor seat. Gorsuch likes his role as the understudy to Roberts. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, JimmyJames said:

Disagree. Kennedy was the perfect justice for what the true controllers of the Republican Party want. 
 

He saved abortion rights eh? You think they don’t want that? Without abortion still on the table millions of rubes would stop voting against their own economic self interest. Rest assured, the republicans will never eliminate this issue. They need the carrot.
 

Citizens United? Greatest decision the Republican corporate machine ever got, authored to the extreme by Kennedy.

He was always a fraud and a shill for the true owners of the Republican Party. He was their most reliable vote for whatever corporate republican interests wanted. The fact that some consider him to be a moderate is a joke. He moderated things if his owners wanted him to. 
 

Roberts has taken up his mantle. 

I’m not saying any of this isn’t true. I think the only word I’d disagree with is the first in your post where you started out disagree. 
I think you are correct in your assessment of Kennedy and I think you are correct that Roberts will fit in there. That’s not an ideologue though, that’s a party (wo)man not an ideologue. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Judicial activism, judicial restraint, and judicial minimalism are intertwined.  "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Neil Peart v. Freewill, 7 Rush 2,  (Can., 1980). 

And Roberts likes his role as the holder of the Kennedy/O'Connor seat. Gorsuch likes his role as the understudy to Roberts. 

Yep. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m not saying any of this isn’t true. I think the only word I’d disagree with is the first in your post where you started out disagree. 
I think you are correct in your assessment of Kennedy and I think you are correct that Roberts will fit in there. That’s not an ideologue though, that’s a party (wo)man not an ideologue. 

Fair enough 

[washparkhorn 9935]

6 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Disagree. Kennedy was the perfect justice for what the true controllers of the Nation  want. . . . 

Citizens United? Greatest decision the. . . corporate machine ever got, authored to the extreme by Kennedy.

He was always a fraud and a shill for the true owners of the Nation . He was their most reliable vote for whatever corporate . . . interests wanted. The fact that some consider him to be a moderate is a joke. He moderated things if his owners wanted him to. 
 

The Powell Memorandum remains a powerful reminder of the Established Order and how the nation moved from the New Deal to Neoliberalism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

68

Spoiler

CONFIDENTIAL MEMORANDUM
Attack on American Free Enterprise System

DATE: August 23, 1971
TO: Mr. Eugene B. Sydnor, Jr., Chairman, Education Committee, U.S. Chamber of Commerce
FROM: Lewis F. Powell, Jr.

This memorandum is submitted at your request as a basis for the discussion on August 24 with Mr. Booth (executive vice president) and others at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The purpose is to identify the problem, and suggest possible avenues of action for further consideration.

Dimensions of the Attack 
No thoughtful person can question that the American economic system is under broad attack. This varies in scope, intensity, in the techniques employed, and in the level of visibility.

There always have been some who opposed the American system, and preferred socialism or some form of statism (communism or fascism). Also, there always have been critics of the system, whose criticism has been wholesome and constructive so long as the objective was to improve rather than to subvert or destroy.

But what now concerns us is quite new in the history of America. We are not dealing with sporadic or isolated attacks from a relatively few extremists or even from the minority socialist cadre. Rather, the assault on the enterprise system is broadly based and consistently pursued. It is gaining momentum and converts.

Sources of the Attack
The sources are varied and diffused. They include, not unexpectedly, the Communists, New Leftists and other revolutionaries who would destroy the entire system, both political and economic. These extremists of the left are far more numerous, better financed, and increasingly are more welcomed and encouraged by other elements of society, than ever before in our history. But they remain a small minority, and are not yet the principal cause for concern.

The most disquieting voices joining the chorus of criticism come from perfectly respectable elements of society: from the college campus, the pulpit, the media, the intellectual and literary journals, the arts and sciences, and from politicians. In most of these groups the movement against the system is participated in only by minorities. Yet, these often are the most articulate, the most vocal, the most prolific in their writing and speaking.

Moreover, much of the media — for varying motives and in varying degrees — either voluntarily accords unique publicity to these “attackers,” or at least allows them to exploit the media for their purposes. This is especially true of television, which now plays such a predominant role in shaping the thinking, attitudes and emotions of our people.

One of the bewildering paradoxes of our time is the extent to which the enterprise system tolerates, if not participates in, its own destruction.

The campuses from which much of the criticism emanates are supported by (i) tax funds generated largely from American business, and (ii) contributions from capital funds controlled or generated by American business. The boards of trustees of our universities overwhelmingly are composed of men and women who are leaders in the system.

Most of the media, including the national TV systems, are owned and theoretically controlled by corporations which depend upon profits, and the enterprise system to survive.

Tone of the Attack
This memorandum is not the place to document in detail the tone, character, or intensity of the attack. The following quotations will suffice to give one a general idea:

William Kunstler, warmly welcomed on campuses and listed in a recent student poll as the “American lawyer most admired,” incites audiences as follows:

“You must learn to fight in the streets, to revolt, to shoot guns. We will learn to do all of the things that property owners fear.” The New Leftists who heed Kunstler’s advice increasingly are beginning to act — not just against military recruiting offices and manufacturers of munitions, but against a variety of businesses: “Since February, 1970, branches (of Bank of America) have been attacked 39 times, 22 times with explosive devices and 17 times with fire bombs or by arsonists.” Although New Leftist spokesmen are succeeding in radicalizing thousands of the young, the greater cause for concern is the hostility of respectable liberals and social reformers. It is the sum total of their views and influence which could indeed fatally weaken or destroy the system.

A chilling description of what is being taught on many of our campuses was written by Stewart Alsop:

“Yale, like every other major college, is graduating scores of bright young men who are practitioners of ‘the politics of despair.’ These young men despise the American political and economic system . . . (their) minds seem to be wholly closed. They live, not by rational discussion, but by mindless slogans.”A recent poll of students on 12 representative campuses reported that: “Almost half the students favored socialization of basic U.S. industries.”

A visiting professor from England at Rockford College gave a series of lectures entitled “The Ideological War Against Western Society,” in which he documents the extent to which members of the intellectual community are waging ideological warfare against the enterprise system and the values of western society. In a foreword to these lectures, famed Dr. Milton Friedman of Chicago warned: “It (is) crystal clear that the foundations of our free society are under wide-ranging and powerful attack — not by Communist or any other conspiracy but by misguided individuals parroting one another and unwittingly serving ends they would never intentionally promote.”

Perhaps the single most effective antagonist of American business is Ralph Nader, who — thanks largely to the media — has become a legend in his own time and an idol of millions of Americans. A recent article in Fortune speaks of Nader as follows:

“The passion that rules in him — and he is a passionate man — is aimed at smashing utterly the target of his hatred, which is corporate power. He thinks, and says quite bluntly, that a great many corporate executives belong in prison — for defrauding the consumer with shoddy merchandise, poisoning the food supply with chemical additives, and willfully manufacturing unsafe products that will maim or kill the buyer. He emphasizes that he is not talking just about ‘fly-by-night hucksters’ but the top management of blue chip business.”

A frontal assault was made on our government, our system of justice, and the free enterprise system by Yale Professor Charles Reich in his widely publicized book: “The Greening of America,” published last winter.

The foregoing references illustrate the broad, shotgun attack on the system itself. There are countless examples of rifle shots which undermine confidence and confuse the public. Favorite current targets are proposals for tax incentives through changes in depreciation rates and investment credits. These are usually described in the media as “tax breaks,” “loop holes” or “tax benefits” for the benefit of business. * As viewed by a columnist in the Post, such tax measures would benefit “only the rich, the owners of big companies.”

It is dismaying that many politicians make the same argument that tax measures of this kind benefit only “business,” without benefit to “the poor.” The fact that this is either political demagoguery or economic illiteracy is of slight comfort. This setting of the “rich” against the “poor,” of business against the people, is the cheapest and most dangerous kind of politics.

The Apathy and Default of Business
What has been the response of business to this massive assault upon its fundamental economics, upon its philosophy, upon its right to continue to manage its own affairs, and indeed upon its integrity?

The painfully sad truth is that business, including the boards of directors’ and the top executives of corporations great and small and business organizations at all levels, often have responded — if at all — by appeasement, ineptitude and ignoring the problem. There are, of course, many exceptions to this sweeping generalization. But the net effect of such response as has been made is scarcely visible.

In all fairness, it must be recognized that businessmen have not been trained or equipped to conduct guerrilla warfare with those who propagandize against the system, seeking insidiously and constantly to sabotage it. The traditional role of business executives has been to manage, to produce, to sell, to create jobs, to make profits, to improve the standard of living, to be community leaders, to serve on charitable and educational boards, and generally to be good citizens. They have performed these tasks very well indeed.

But they have shown little stomach for hard-nose contest with their critics, and little skill in effective intellectual and philosophical debate.

A column recently carried by the Wall Street Journal was entitled: “Memo to GM: Why Not Fight Back?” Although addressed to GM by name, the article was a warning to all American business. Columnist St. John said:

“General Motors, like American business in general, is ‘plainly in trouble’ because intellectual bromides have been substituted for a sound intellectual exposition of its point of view.” Mr. St. John then commented on the tendency of business leaders to compromise with and appease critics. He cited the concessions which Nader wins from management, and spoke of “the fallacious view many businessmen take toward their critics.” He drew a parallel to the mistaken tactics of many college administrators: “College administrators learned too late that such appeasement serves to destroy free speech, academic freedom and genuine scholarship. One campus radical demand was conceded by university heads only to be followed by a fresh crop which soon escalated to what amounted to a demand for outright surrender.”

One need not agree entirely with Mr. St. John’s analysis. But most observers of the American scene will agree that the essence of his message is sound. American business “plainly in trouble”; the response to the wide range of critics has been ineffective, and has included appeasement; the time has come — indeed, it is long overdue — for the wisdom, ingenuity and resources of American business to be marshalled against those who would destroy it.

Responsibility of Business Executives
What specifically should be done? The first essential — a prerequisite to any effective action — is for businessmen to confront this problem as a primary responsibility of corporate management.

The overriding first need is for businessmen to recognize that the ultimate issue may be survival — survival of what we call the free enterprise system, and all that this means for the strength and prosperity of America and the freedom of our people.

The day is long past when the chief executive officer of a major corporation discharges his responsibility by maintaining a satisfactory growth of profits, with due regard to the corporation’s public and social responsibilities. If our system is to survive, top management must be equally concerned with protecting and preserving the system itself. This involves far more than an increased emphasis on “public relations” or “governmental affairs” — two areas in which corporations long have invested substantial sums.

A significant first step by individual corporations could well be the designation of an executive vice president (ranking with other executive VP’s) whose responsibility is to counter-on the broadest front-the attack on the enterprise system. The public relations department could be one of the foundations assigned to this executive, but his responsibilities should encompass some of the types of activities referred to subsequently in this memorandum. His budget and staff should be adequate to the task.

Possible Role of the Chamber of Commerce
But independent and uncoordinated activity by individual corporations, as important as this is, will not be sufficient. Strength lies in organization, in careful long-range planning and implementation, in consistency of action over an indefinite period of years, in the scale of financing available only through joint effort, and in the political power available only through united action and national organizations.

Moreover, there is the quite understandable reluctance on the part of any one corporation to get too far out in front and to make itself too visible a target.

The role of the National Chamber of Commerce is therefore vital. Other national organizations (especially those of various industrial and commercial groups) should join in the effort, but no other organizations appear to be as well situated as the Chamber. It enjoys a strategic position, with a fine reputation and a broad base of support. Also — and this is of immeasurable merit — there are hundreds of local Chambers of Commerce which can play a vital supportive role.

It hardly need be said that before embarking upon any program, the Chamber should study and analyze possible courses of action and activities, weighing risks against probable effectiveness and feasibility of each. Considerations of cost, the assurance of financial and other support from members, adequacy of staffing and similar problems will all require the most thoughtful consideration.

The Campus
The assault on the enterprise system was not mounted in a few months. It has gradually evolved over the past two decades, barely perceptible in its origins and benefiting (sic) from a gradualism that provoked little awareness much less any real reaction.

Although origins, sources and causes are complex and interrelated, and obviously difficult to identify without careful qualification, there is reason to believe that the campus is the single most dynamic source. The social science faculties usually include members who are unsympathetic to the enterprise system. They may range from a Herbert Marcuse, Marxist faculty member at the University of California at San Diego, and convinced socialists, to the ambivalent liberal critic who finds more to condemn than to commend. Such faculty members need not be in a majority. They are often personally attractive and magnetic; they are stimulating teachers, and their controversy attracts student following; they are prolific writers and lecturers; they author many of the textbooks, and they exert enormous influence — far out of proportion to their numbers — on their colleagues and in the academic world.

Social science faculties (the political scientist, economist, sociologist and many of the historians) tend to be liberally oriented, even when leftists are not present. This is not a criticism per se, as the need for liberal thought is essential to a balanced viewpoint. The difficulty is that “balance” is conspicuous by its absence on many campuses, with relatively few members being of conservatives or moderate persuasion and even the relatively few often being less articulate and aggressive than their crusading colleagues.

This situation extending back many years and with the imbalance gradually worsening, has had an enormous impact on millions of young American students. In an article in Barron’s Weekly, seeking an answer to why so many young people are disaffected even to the point of being revolutionaries, it was said: “Because they were taught that way.” Or, as noted by columnist Stewart Alsop, writing about his alma mater: “Yale, like every other major college, is graduating scores’ of bright young men … who despise the American political and economic system.”

As these “bright young men,” from campuses across the country, seek opportunities to change a system which they have been taught to distrust — if not, indeed “despise” — they seek employment in the centers of the real power and influence in our country, namely: (i) with the news media, especially television; (ii) in government, as “staffers” and consultants at various levels; (iii) in elective politics; (iv) as lecturers and writers, and (v) on the faculties at various levels of education.

Many do enter the enterprise system — in business and the professions — and for the most part they quickly discover the fallacies of what they have been taught. But those who eschew the mainstream of the system often remain in key positions of influence where they mold public opinion and often shape governmental action. In many instances, these “intellectuals” end up in regulatory agencies or governmental departments with large authority over the business system they do not believe in.

If the foregoing analysis is approximately sound, a priority task of business — and organizations such as the Chamber — is to address the campus origin of this hostility. Few things are more sanctified in American life than academic freedom. It would be fatal to attack this as a principle. But if academic freedom is to retain the qualities of “openness,” “fairness” and “balance” — which are essential to its intellectual significance — there is a great opportunity for constructive action. The thrust of such action must be to restore the qualities just mentioned to the academic communities.

What Can Be Done About the Campus
The ultimate responsibility for intellectual integrity on the campus must remain on the administrations and faculties of our colleges and universities. But organizations such as the Chamber can assist and activate constructive change in many ways, including the following:

Staff of Scholars 
The Chamber should consider establishing a staff of highly qualified scholars in the social sciences who do believe in the system. It should include several of national reputation whose authorship would be widely respected — even when disagreed with.

Staff of Speakers 
There also should be a staff of speakers of the highest competency. These might include the scholars, and certainly those who speak for the Chamber would have to articulate the product of the scholars.

Speaker’s Bureau 
In addition to full-time staff personnel, the Chamber should have a Speaker’s Bureau which should include the ablest and most effective advocates from the top echelons of American business.

Evaluation of Textbooks
The staff of scholars (or preferably a panel of independent scholars) should evaluate social science textbooks, especially in economics, political science and sociology. This should be a continuing program.

The objective of such evaluation should be oriented toward restoring the balance essential to genuine academic freedom. This would include assurance of fair and factual treatment of our system of government and our enterprise system, its accomplishments, its basic relationship to individual rights and freedoms, and comparisons with the systems of socialism, fascism and communism. Most of the existing textbooks have some sort of comparisons, but many are superficial, biased and unfair.

We have seen the civil rights movement insist on re-writing many of the textbooks in our universities and schools. The labor unions likewise insist that textbooks be fair to the viewpoints of organized labor. Other interested citizens groups have not hesitated to review, analyze and criticize textbooks and teaching materials. In a democratic society, this can be a constructive process and should be regarded as an aid to genuine academic freedom and not as an intrusion upon it.

If the authors, publishers and users of textbooks know that they will be subjected — honestly, fairly and thoroughly — to review and critique by eminent scholars who believe in the American system, a return to a more rational balance can be expected.

Equal Time on the Campus 
The Chamber should insist upon equal time on the college speaking circuit. The FBI publishes each year a list of speeches made on college campuses by avowed Communists. The number in 1970 exceeded 100. There were, of course, many hundreds of appearances by leftists and ultra liberals who urge the types of viewpoints indicated earlier in this memorandum. There was no corresponding representation of American business, or indeed by individuals or organizations who appeared in support of the American system of government and business.

Every campus has its formal and informal groups which invite speakers. Each law school does the same thing. Many universities and colleges officially sponsor lecture and speaking programs. We all know the inadequacy of the representation of business in the programs.

It will be said that few invitations would be extended to Chamber speakers. This undoubtedly would be true unless the Chamber aggressively insisted upon the right to be heard — in effect, insisted upon “equal time.” University administrators and the great majority of student groups and committees would not welcome being put in the position publicly of refusing a forum to diverse views, indeed, this is the classic excuse for allowing Communists to speak.

The two essential ingredients are (i) to have attractive, articulate and well-informed speakers; and (ii) to exert whatever degree of pressure — publicly and privately — may be necessary to assure opportunities to speak. The objective always must be to inform and enlighten, and not merely to propagandize.

Balancing of Faculties
Perhaps the most fundamental problem is the imbalance of many faculties. Correcting this is indeed a long-range and difficult project. Yet, it should be undertaken as a part of an overall program. This would mean the urging of the need for faculty balance upon university administrators and boards of trustees.

The methods to be employed require careful thought, and the obvious pitfalls must be avoided. Improper pressure would be counterproductive. But the basic concepts of balance, fairness and truth are difficult to resist, if properly presented to boards of trustees, by writing and speaking, and by appeals to alumni associations and groups.

This is a long road and not one for the fainthearted. But if pursued with integrity and conviction it could lead to a strengthening of both academic freedom on the campus and of the values which have made America the most productive of all societies.

Graduate Schools of Business 
The Chamber should enjoy a particular rapport with the increasingly influential graduate schools of business. Much that has been suggested above applies to such schools.

Should not the Chamber also request specific courses in such schools dealing with the entire scope of the problem addressed by this memorandum? This is now essential training for the executives of the future.

Secondary Education 
While the first priority should be at the college level, the trends mentioned above are increasingly evidenced in the high schools. Action programs, tailored to the high schools and similar to those mentioned, should be considered. The implementation thereof could become a major program for local chambers of commerce, although the control and direction — especially the quality control — should be retained by the National Chamber.

What Can Be Done About the Public? 
Reaching the campus and the secondary schools is vital for the long-term. Reaching the public generally may be more important for the shorter term. The first essential is to establish the staffs of eminent scholars, writers and speakers, who will do the thinking, the analysis, the writing and the speaking. It will also be essential to have staff personnel who are thoroughly familiar with the media, and how most effectively to communicate with the public. Among the more obvious means are the following:

Television
The national television networks should be monitored in the same way that textbooks should be kept under constant surveillance. This applies not merely to so-called educational programs (such as “Selling of the Pentagon”), but to the daily “news analysis” which so often includes the most insidious type of criticism of the enterprise system. Whether this criticism results from hostility or economic ignorance, the result is the gradual erosion of confidence in “business” and free enterprise.

This monitoring, to be effective, would require constant examination of the texts of adequate samples of programs. Complaints — to the media and to the Federal Communications Commission — should be made promptly and strongly when programs are unfair or inaccurate.

Equal time should be demanded when appropriate. Effort should be made to see that the forum-type programs (the Today Show, Meet the Press, etc.) afford at least as much opportunity for supporters of the American system to participate as these programs do for those who attack it.

Other Media
Radio and the press are also important, and every available means should be employed to challenge and refute unfair attacks, as well as to present the affirmative case through these media.

The Scholarly Journals 
It is especially important for the Chamber’s “faculty of scholars” to publish. One of the keys to the success of the liberal and leftist faculty members has been their passion for “publication” and “lecturing.” A similar passion must exist among the Chamber’s scholars.

Incentives might be devised to induce more “publishing” by independent scholars who do believe in the system.

There should be a fairly steady flow of scholarly articles presented to a broad spectrum of magazines and periodicals — ranging from the popular magazines (Life, Look, Reader’s Digest, etc.) to the more intellectual ones (Atlantic, Harper’s, Saturday Review, New York, etc.) and to the various professional journals.

Books, Paperbacks and Pamphlets
The news stands — at airports, drugstores, and elsewhere — are filled with paperbacks and pamphlets advocating everything from revolution to erotic free love. One finds almost no attractive, well-written paperbacks or pamphlets on “our side.” It will be difficult to compete with an Eldridge Cleaver or even a Charles Reich for reader attention, but unless the effort is made — on a large enough scale and with appropriate imagination to assure some success — this opportunity for educating the public will be irretrievably lost.

Paid Advertisements
Business pays hundreds of millions of dollars to the media for advertisements. Most of this supports specific products; much of it supports institutional image making; and some fraction of it does support the system. But the latter has been more or less tangential, and rarely part of a sustained, major effort to inform and enlighten the American people.

If American business devoted only 10% of its total annual advertising budget to this overall purpose, it would be a statesman-like expenditure.

The Neglected Political Arena
In the final analysis, the payoff — short-of revolution — is what government does. Business has been the favorite whipping-boy of many politicians for many years. But the measure of how far this has gone is perhaps best found in the anti-business views now being expressed by several leading candidates for President of the United States.

It is still Marxist doctrine that the “capitalist” countries are controlled by big business. This doctrine, consistently a part of leftist propaganda all over the world, has a wide public following among Americans.

Yet, as every business executive knows, few elements of American society today have as little influence in government as the American businessman, the corporation, or even the millions of corporate stockholders. If one doubts this, let him undertake the role of “lobbyist” for the business point of view before Congressional committees. The same situation obtains in the legislative halls of most states and major cities. One does not exaggerate to say that, in terms of political influence with respect to the course of legislation and government action, the American business executive is truly the “forgotten man.”

Current examples of the impotency of business, and of the near-contempt with which businessmen’s views are held, are the stampedes by politicians to support almost any legislation related to “consumerism” or to the “environment.”

Politicians reflect what they believe to be majority views of their constituents. It is thus evident that most politicians are making the judgment that the public has little sympathy for the businessman or his viewpoint.

The educational programs suggested above would be designed to enlighten public thinking — not so much about the businessman and his individual role as about the system which he administers, and which provides the goods, services and jobs on which our country depends.

But one should not postpone more direct political action, while awaiting the gradual change in public opinion to be effected through education and information. Business must learn the lesson, long ago learned by labor and other self-interest groups. This is the lesson that political power is necessary; that such power must be assidously (sic) cultivated; and that when necessary, it must be used aggressively and with determination — without embarrassment and without the reluctance which has been so characteristic of American business.

As unwelcome as it may be to the Chamber, it should consider assuming a broader and more vigorous role in the political arena.

Neglected Opportunity in the Courts 
American business and the enterprise system have been affected as much by the courts as by the executive and legislative branches of government. Under our constitutional system, especially with an activist-minded Supreme Court, the judiciary may be the most important instrument for social, economic and political change.

Other organizations and groups, recognizing this, have been far more astute in exploiting judicial action than American business. Perhaps the most active exploiters of the judicial system have been groups ranging in political orientation from “liberal” to the far left.

The American Civil Liberties Union is one example. It initiates or intervenes in scores of cases each year, and it files briefs amicus curiae in the Supreme Court in a number of cases during each term of that court. Labor unions, civil rights groups and now the public interest law firms are extremely active in the judicial arena. Their success, often at business’ expense, has not been inconsequential.

This is a vast area of opportunity for the Chamber, if it is willing to undertake the role of spokesman for American business and if, in turn, business is willing to provide the funds.

As with respect to scholars and speakers, the Chamber would need a highly competent staff of lawyers. In special situations it should be authorized to engage, to appear as counsel amicus in the Supreme Court, lawyers of national standing and reputation. The greatest care should be exercised in selecting the cases in which to participate, or the suits to institute. But the opportunity merits the necessary effort.

Neglected Stockholder Power
The average member of the public thinks of “business” as an impersonal corporate entity, owned by the very rich and managed by over-paid executives. There is an almost total failure to appreciate that “business” actually embraces — in one way or another — most Americans. Those for whom business provides jobs, constitute a fairly obvious class. But the 20 million stockholders — most of whom are of modest means — are the real owners, the real entrepreneurs, the real capitalists under our system. They provide the capital which fuels the economic system which has produced the highest standard of living in all history. Yet, stockholders have been as ineffectual as business executives in promoting a genuine understanding of our system or in exercising political influence.

The question which merits the most thorough examination is how can the weight and influence of stockholders — 20 million voters — be mobilized to support (i) an educational program and (ii) a political action program.

Individual corporations are now required to make numerous reports to shareholders. Many corporations also have expensive “news” magazines which go to employees and stockholders. These opportunities to communicate can be used far more effectively as educational media.

The corporation itself must exercise restraint in undertaking political action and must, of course, comply with applicable laws. But is it not feasible — through an affiliate of the Chamber or otherwise — to establish a national organization of American stockholders and give it enough muscle to be influential?

A More Aggressive Attitude
Business interests — especially big business and their national trade organizations — have tried to maintain low profiles, especially with respect to political action.

As suggested in the Wall Street Journal article, it has been fairly characteristic of the average business executive to be tolerant — at least in public — of those who attack his corporation and the system. Very few businessmen or business organizations respond in kind. There has been a disposition to appease; to regard the opposition as willing to compromise, or as likely to fade away in due time.

Business has shunted confrontation politics. Business, quite understandably, has been repelled by the multiplicity of non-negotiable “demands” made constantly by self-interest groups of all kinds.

While neither responsible business interests, nor the United States Chamber of Commerce, would engage in the irresponsible tactics of some pressure groups, it is essential that spokesmen for the enterprise system — at all levels and at every opportunity — be far more aggressive than in the past.

There should be no hesitation to attack the Naders, the Marcuses and others who openly seek destruction of the system. There should not be the slightest hesitation to press vigorously in all political arenas for support of the enterprise system. Nor should there be reluctance to penalize politically those who oppose it.

Lessons can be learned from organized labor in this respect. The head of the AFL-CIO may not appeal to businessmen as the most endearing or public-minded of citizens. Yet, over many years the heads of national labor organizations have done what they were paid to do very effectively. They may not have been beloved, but they have been respected — where it counts the most — by politicians, on the campus, and among the media.

It is time for American business — which has demonstrated the greatest capacity in all history to produce and to influence consumer decisions — to apply their great talents vigorously to the preservation of the system itself.

The Cost 
The type of program described above (which includes a broadly based combination of education and political action), if undertaken long term and adequately staffed, would require far more generous financial support from American corporations than the Chamber has ever received in the past. High level management participation in Chamber affairs also would be required.

The staff of the Chamber would have to be significantly increased, with the highest quality established and maintained. Salaries would have to be at levels fully comparable to those paid key business executives and the most prestigious faculty members. Professionals of the great skill in advertising and in working with the media, speakers, lawyers and other specialists would have to be recruited.

It is possible that the organization of the Chamber itself would benefit from restructuring. For example, as suggested by union experience, the office of President of the Chamber might well be a full-time career position. To assure maximum effectiveness and continuity, the chief executive officer of the Chamber should not be changed each year. The functions now largely performed by the President could be transferred to a Chairman of the Board, annually elected by the membership. The Board, of course, would continue to exercise policy control.

Quality Control is Essential 
Essential ingredients of the entire program must be responsibility and “quality control.” The publications, the articles, the speeches, the media programs, the advertising, the briefs filed in courts, and the appearances before legislative committees — all must meet the most exacting standards of accuracy and professional excellence. They must merit respect for their level of public responsibility and scholarship, whether one agrees with the viewpoints expressed or not.

Relationship to Freedom 
The threat to the enterprise system is not merely a matter of economics. It also is a threat to individual freedom.

It is this great truth — now so submerged by the rhetoric of the New Left and of many liberals — that must be re-affirmed if this program is to be meaningful.

There seems to be little awareness that the only alternatives to free enterprise are varying degrees of bureaucratic regulation of individual freedom — ranging from that under moderate socialism to the iron heel of the leftist or rightist dictatorship.

We in America already have moved very far indeed toward some aspects of state socialism, as the needs and complexities of a vast urban society require types of regulation and control that were quite unnecessary in earlier times. In some areas, such regulation and control already have seriously impaired the freedom of both business and labor, and indeed of the public generally. But most of the essential freedoms remain: private ownership, private profit, labor unions, collective bargaining, consumer choice, and a market economy in which competition largely determines price, quality and variety of the goods and services provided the consumer.

In addition to the ideological attack on the system itself (discussed in this memorandum), its essentials also are threatened by inequitable taxation, and — more recently — by an inflation which has seemed uncontrollable. But whatever the causes of diminishing economic freedom may be, the truth is that freedom as a concept is indivisible. As the experience of the socialist and totalitarian states demonstrates, the contraction and denial of economic freedom is followed inevitably by governmental restrictions on other cherished rights. It is this message, above all others, that must be carried home to the American people.

Conclusion
It hardly need be said that the views expressed above are tentative and suggestive. The first step should be a thorough study. But this would be an exercise in futility unless the Board of Directors of the Chamber accepts the fundamental premise of this paper, namely, that business and the enterprise system are in deep trouble, and the hour is late.

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

3 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

I haven't read the full articles yet, but if he urged the Court to deny cert in June Medical I would say that's absolutely a form of judicial activism and a pretty extreme one, though operating under the guise of judicial restraint. Urging the Court to permit a lower court to blatantly overturn a decision that SCOTUS had just made a couple of years earlier can hardly be said to be a demonstration of restraint. 

Also, Wulaw, if you're going to argue that Roberts isn't a partisan ideologue we're going to have to fight.

Judicial activism isn't just ruling with an eye to the outcome.  If you want to use it that way, then judicial activism either a) doesn't exist or b) is so ubiquitous and has always been so that the term is meaningless as an accusation.

I mean, I guess you can define it that way, but historically, it means a convoluted or analytically dubious opinion rendered to obtain an outcome, particularly when it frustrates legislation or the legislative process.

[JimmyJames 12271]

Yes the chamber of commerce is basically an evil institution designed to fuck over all Americans at the expense of a minority of the rich who control the massive corporations.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, JimmyJames said:

Yes the chamber of commerce is basically an evil institution designed to fuck over all Americans at the expense of a minority of the rich who control the massive corporations.

The chamber of commerce? Massive corporations?  Dude- what are your thoughts on the blindenbergs rothchilds and col sanders?

have you ever been to a chamber meeting? It’s basically your local insurance agent, car dealer, realtors, local bank, local mortgage guy etc. small business owners looking their resources together because none of them, individually, have the lobbying power of a massive corporation. 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

The chamber of commerce is by far the largest lobbying group in America you rube. 

[Texaspython 231]

6 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

The chamber of commerce is by far the largest lobbying group in America you rube. 

He’s right, it’s not even close.

[JimmyJames 12271]

35 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The chamber of commerce? Massive corporations?  Dude- what are your thoughts on the blindenbergs rothchilds and col sanders?

have you ever been to a chamber meeting? It’s basically your local insurance agent, car dealer, realtors, local bank, local mortgage guy etc. small business owners looking their resources together because none of them, individually, have the lobbying power of a massive corporation. 

Is this a serious post or am I missing the joke.

[washparkhorn 9935]

21 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The chamber of commerce? Massive corporations?  Dude- what are your thoughts on the blindenbergs rothchilds and col sanders?

have you ever been to a chamber meeting? It’s basically your local insurance agent, car dealer, realtors, local bank, local mortgage guy etc. small business owners looking their resources together because none of them, individually, have the lobbying power of a massive corporation. 

National, not your local branch. And in 1971, the National Chamber of Commerce and Industry put out their blueprint for a new America. The author - Lewis Powell - was nominated to the Supreme Court shortly after the memo was distributed. The Powell Memo changed the way America functioned and remains a foundational document for the move from the New Deal to the neoliberal business of America. 

But yes - your local chamber are local folk. The National Chamber promises the locals trickle down effects. 

From the Powell Memo - 

Quote

 

But independent and uncoordinated activity by individual corporations, as important as this is, will not be sufficient. Strength lies in organization, in careful long-range planning and implementation, in consistency of action over an indefinite period of years, in the scale of financing available only through joint effort, and in the political power available only through united action and national organizations.

Moreover, there is the quite understandable reluctance on the part of any one corporation to get too far out in front and to make itself too visible a target.

The role of the National Chamber of Commerce is therefore vital. Other national organizations (especially those of various industrial and commercial groups) should join in the effort, but no other organizations appear to be as well situated as the Chamber. It enjoys a strategic position, with a fine reputation and a broad base of support. Also — and this is of immeasurable merit — there are hundreds of local Chambers of Commerce which can play a vital supportive role.

 

https://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/

 

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

Just imagine, maw maw and paw paw who own the local shop and save go around the country in their pickup truck and collect change from all the other honest god fearing local business and then they take the change to various members of Congress and just cross their fingers that it works. It’s getting harder since they spent 1.4 billion dollars last year. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

38 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

The chamber of commerce is by far the largest lobbying group in America you rube. 

I’m aware. That was exactly my point when I said pooling the resources together of a bunch of businesses that can’t lobby for themselves. 
What part of that was unclear?  It’s made up of a bunch of small business that in the aggregate add up to a powerful lobbying force. Kind of like, oh I don’t know, the service workers union or any other group of individuals that band together to form a collective. 
but it ain’t Microsoft and GM and other rich corporations. Those boys have their own stroke in their own way. 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Just imagine, maw maw and paw paw who own the local shop and save go around the country in their pickup truck and collect change from all the other honest god fearing local business and then they take the change to various members of Congress and just cross their fingers that it works. It’s getting harder since they spent 1.4 billion dollars last year. 

What the fuck is it that you think you are responding to? I didn’t say that the chamber was insignificant. It is significant because it’s a bunch of small business owners banded together. Not because it’s run by giant corporations. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

The chamber is So ducking exclusive that they ask dipshits like myself to be a part of their group and charge outrageous fees like $100 for that privilege. Really high rolling shit. And then, once a year, they have a fundraiser where you can out on a shit and tie and play fake casino and eat a rubber chicken dinner for like $100.00 a couple. It’s probably held at the holiday inn even. 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

They aren't talking about your local chamber of commerce.

US Chamber of Commerce

There's little or no relationship between that and your local CoC.  It pretends to be small business oriented, and local chambers may be members, but the sources of its funding are opaque.

Edited July 30, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[wildcat09 29258]

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The chamber is So ducking exclusive that they ask dipshits like myself to be a part of their group and charge outrageous fees like $100 for that privilege. Really high rolling shit. And then, once a year, they have a fundraiser where you can out on a shit and tie and play fake casino and eat a rubber chicken dinner for like $100.00 a couple. It’s probably held at the holiday inn even. 

The national chamber uses local chambers like yours to pretend that it represents small businesses.

Edited July 30, 2020 by wildcat09

[TwiceHorn 31283]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The national chamber uses local chambers like yours to pretend that it represents small businesses.

Yup.  It's BoD is a list of small business luminaries. https://www.uschamber.com/about/board-of-directors

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The national chamber uses local chambers like yours to pretend that it represents small businesses.

almost like republicans use the working man to pretend they represent small businesses.

[Aqua Buddha 14521]

More than any other poster here, Wulaw spends the most time arguing about things he knows absolutely nothing about.

He thinks the US Chamber of Commerce is funded by mom and pop stores?  Jesus.

[wildcat09 29258]

To be fair, a lot of GOP House reps do spend some of their time trying to represent local business interests. It’s just that they spend the overwhelming majority of their time playacting tough guy cowboys on Fox News and representing the interests of the billionaires that really fund them. Oh, and when they’re representing their local businesses it’s basically the most scummy used car dealers in their district.

[wildcat09 29258]

And now we see the impact of Roberts' concurrence in June Medical:

 

Among other restrictions, the Arkansas restrictions require doctors to notify a patient's family members and prohibit the most common abortion method for pregnancies beyond 12-14 weeks.

Roberts got the headlines he wanted, essentially destroying the public basis for any calls from Democrats to pack or otherwise reform the courts, while substantially diminishing women's rights, all without having to stamp his name and approval to any specific abortion restrictions. Republicans are just too stupid to understand the enormous amount of work he's doing for them.

[Biff Tannen 45499]

4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

And now we see the impact of Roberts' concurrence in June Medical:

 

Among other restrictions, the Arkansas restrictions require doctors to notify a patient's family members and prohibit the most common abortion method for pregnancies beyond 12-14 weeks.

Roberts got the headlines he wanted, essentially destroying the public basis for any calls from Democrats to pack or otherwise reform the courts, while substantially diminishing women's rights, all without having to stamp his name and approval to any specific abortion restrictions. Republicans are just too stupid to understand the enormous amount of work he's doing for them.

Doctors have to notify a patient's family members if they have an abortion?  That is a massive HIPAA violation.  That can't be right.

[wildcat09 29258]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Doctors have to notify a patient's family members if they have an abortion?  That is a massive HIPAA violation.  That can't be right.

Arkansas passed a law basically granting family members the "right" to participate in the disposition of fetal tissue, so technically what's required is that they be notified of their right to have input on how the fetal tissue should be disposed of. It's very obviously an attempted end around on prior bans on family notification requirements that numerous states have tried to enact through the years. I don't think they've ever been challenged as conflicting with HIPAA, but I'm sure they will going forward. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

2020 has three months left. Anyone remember a parent saying, "I"m so sick and tired?" 2020 is that parent.

 

[Mo Horn 8807]

1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

2020 has three months left. Anyone remember a parent saying, "I"m so sick and tired?" 2020 is that parent.

 

I'm guessing that Thomas wouldn't be in favor of overturning the SCOTUS decision that made his mixed marriage legal. No, that's not hypocritical at all. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

I don’t don’t do the legal, so I’m uninformed; seemed like a trailer for their upcoming let’s roll back all those pesky rights main event featuring newcomer ACB in the starring role.

[Firemans4Horn 17834]

Terrifying what a 6-3 court looks like based on Alito’s comments tonight. Just hitting the highlights, the whole thread starts in the first tweet. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Woland 729]

Actions create reactions. Seems like a bad point in American history to stir the pot.

[TwiceHorn 31283]

Thomas and Alito are on the fucking crazy train.

Everyone seems to know Thomas is a loon, Alito is a tad stealthier.  Until now.

[Firemans4Horn 17834]

ACB is 48 year old clown car vagina far right crazy

and Kavanaugh is the kid that ate crayons in elementary school but might still huff glue crazy

[Gil Bang 25898]

9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thomas and Alito are on the fucking crazy train.

Everyone seems to know Thomas is a loon, Alito is a tad stealthier.  Until now.

and compared to his cunt wife, Thomas seems completely sane. 

[tx 3 putt 76400]

Unhinged 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

I guess you can take solace in the fact that those two loonbags couldn't get two others to go along with them.

And still felt like they needed to write about it.

[BrickHorn 18194]

Such a weird, self-centered conviction that you should control who everyone else in the world can and can’t marry. Karen mentality, imo.

Edited November 13, 2020 by BrickHorn

[RPM 26229]

41 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Such a weird, self-centered conviction that you should control who everyone else in the world can and can’t marry.

This is one of my fundamental problems with "Conservatives." They don't want less constrictions, which is the definition of being conservative. They want a strict set of defining guardrails to maintain the world in an imaginary Shangri La where they are in charge and everyone falls in fucking lockstep or gets time in the stocks.