Brothahorn's Conservative Thread

[A-Tex Devil 2444]

41 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

The fantasy of the American Loner Ethos has never proven to be more bullshit than right now during Covid.  We asked American's to stay home for 2-3 months so we could lower the infection levels to a point where we could contact trace and snuff out isolated hot spots.

The individualistic American, prepared for the apocalypse? Armed to the teeth, provisioned well, and only asking to be left alone to carry out their life?  Made it 5 fucking weeks before they insisted the body politic allow them to go to a bar.

This.  We are seeing the real downsides of "rugged individualism" right now.  Rugged individualism is a fucking dream to a pandemic causing virus.  That "ideal," combined with executive and legislative branch idiots and/or foreign interlopers stoking the fear of the stupidest among us is killing a lot of people.

[TXSG8R 3355]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

See, I actually agree with you on that somewhat.  The USA is too large to be a single entity with centralized power.

The alternative is pretty fucking scary.  Can you imagine red states being completely in charge of education?  

[Continental Op 3934]

37 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Gov Hot Wheels, is that you?

If that is your response to the very many people in Texas school districts, many of which do not have those options, who object to making their children subjects in an epidemiological experiments, I guess that that is your prerogative.  

I didn't say it was a good idea.  I'm just saying that if you want private education for your children then pay for it yourself and don't ask to be exempted from kicking your share into public education in order to pay for it.  

Edited July 10, 2020 by Continental Op

[Anastasis 23375]

10 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

The other portion of your post contained nothing about the coming fall semester epidemiological experiments either. 

I am not sure what point you think you are making. I have made same point using the same formulation, prior to that post, on other posts on the subject on this sub and the others. 

And I made it explicitly in a follow-up post. 

You know that these discussions don't occur without the context of the other discussions taking place on here, right?

3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

But that isn't actually where "burn it down" fell in your personal timeline.  Instead, you wanted to burn it down before the 2016 election even occurred.  I do get that you thought you'd be relatively safe from the fire while others burned in it.  Fire doesn't work that way though.

 

I'd love to see the quote and the context so that you can really demonstrate your point. 

Burn what down?  An immoral american foreign policy?  OK. An unconstitutional surveillance state? OK. I am not sure that I used that particular phrase in the context of discussions on those topics, but I would be willing to concede that you could probably frame my views in that context if you were being lazy.  

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, TXSG8R said:

The alternative is pretty fucking scary.  Can you imagine red states being completely in charge of education?  

Yes I can.  And in the past, I leaned toward the possibility that eventually knowledge would overwhelm ignorance throughout the nation.   But instead, red state voters have disproportionate voting power to the point where they are able to fuck up education, infrastructure, and other things outside their state borders.  We can put far more economic pressure on them if they were separate countries that needed to meet certain economic, civil rights, and social goals in order to join a trade partnership, and where sanctions could be applied when needed.  It would not take them long to come around.  Most of them anyway.

[Captainant 27311]

51 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

If you have your children in a public school in Texas (which I know that you do not), they are being forced by government mandates and leverage from both state and federal level into an epidemiological experiment for the Fall semester. The leverage they are using to shove this down our throats is provided by our own tax dollars. I do not like that, you seem just fine with it (probably because you don't have children who are being directly impacted). As I indicated in the post that you quoted, the solutions don't have to resemble libertarian fantasy island. But rhetorically I understand why you want to play on fantasy island.  

Lmao, so you're using the uniquely and historically bad behavior of the trump admin in sabotaging public schooling to justify the voucher system to take funds away from public schools because they're so bad?

This is some next-level intellectual dishonesty from you man. Well done

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

I didn't say it was a good idea.  I'm just saying that if you want private education for your children then pay for it yourself and don't ask to be exempted from kicking your share into public education in order to pay for it.  

I am not asking to be exempted from kicking in my share. I am suggesting that in the context of the current situation, there are a good number of parents from a wide political spectrum who might be rethinking things related to "school choice", and mechanisms such as vouchers that allow them to make the best decision for the education of their children. Your response to those parents, including the less advantaged, is "just home school or private school them". 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Lmao, so you're using the uniquely and historically bad behavior of the trump admin in sabotaging public schooling to justify the voucher system to take funds away from public schools because they're so bad?

This is some next-level intellectual dishonesty from you man. Well done

The feds using the money whip to force an agenda is not unique to Trump, nor is it unique to the topic of public school education. 

[Continental Op 3934]

I don't think the local fire department is meeting my needs and therefore I have formed Continental Op's Christian Fire Department which better reflects my values and preferences.  Who do I contact about getting some of my tax money that goes to the public fire department back so I can help pay for my fire department? 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Lmao, so you're using the uniquely and historically bad behavior of the trump admin in sabotaging public schooling to justify the voucher system to take funds away from public schools because they're so bad?

This is some next-level intellectual dishonesty from you man. Well done

That is pretty much how the GOP (and especially Tea Partiers) works.  Say government is bad.  Get in charge of government and make it intentionally bad.  Then say, see we told you, government is bad, let me give all this tax money to my friend instead.

[Captainant 27311]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

The feds using the money whip to force an agenda is not unique to Trump, nor is it unique to the topic of public school education. 

In this case, the "whip" is woefully inadequate/underfunded public education system. Which has been actively worsened by the trump admin. And now because it's so bad, you support further defunding the schools because they suck anyways?

Sounds more like you just wanted to defund public school so you can get a discount to send your kiddos to a private school.

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Sounds more like you just wanted to defund public school so you can get a discount to send your kiddos to a private school.

I don't want to defund public education and I don't have a particularly strong inclination towards sending my children to private school. My children will stay in public schools, unless public schools show themselves to be an unsafe environment (epi experiment here we go), or are not providing the right educational environment for my children. I  would just like a public education system that empowers parents with choice, districts with accountability, and keeps control as local as practical. Crazy fantasy island stuff. 

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Y'all's dogmatic reflex to anything that seeks to decentralize power from government is pretty funny though. Status quo for life.  

For me, obviously it isn’t that.

education is the lowest common denominator, or at least it should be, in our society. When We stop investing towards low performers/ remove resources from publics and just focus on the high end in eduction; we all lose When it comes to empowering the Individual to overcome obstacles in their life, whether it is poverty, racism, or any of the other reasons people are held back.
 

if we as a society dictate that public schools must take everybody, then they should get all the public funding. Do you want to have a one off, then by all means go for it; but don’t do it on the public’s dime. It’s not an either/or proposition, in my humble opinion.  An educated public is a more equal public, it is also more capable…

[Bateshorn 9882]

The convoy can only move as fast as it's slowest ship. And every ship is precious. I can't think of a simpler way to put it.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Bateshorn

[elfenix 34168]

there's 1,247 public school districts in the state of texas.  that seems like a lot.

edit: that figure includes charter schools counted separately and some specialty schools. looks like the figure is just a bit over 1000 for traditional districts.

Edited July 10, 2020 by elfenix

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, elfenix said:

there's 1,247 public school districts in the state of texas.  that seems like a lot.

edit: that figure includes charter schools counted separately and some specialty schools. looks like the figure is just a bit over 1000 for traditional districts.

school districts or schools?  Dave Campbell's touts 1400 high school football previews for 2020...but that number also includes privates.

at 1247, that's right at 5 schools per county.   Texas is a big ass state...

[Rougarou 594]

1 hour ago, Continental Op said:

I didn't say it was a good idea.  I'm just saying that if you want private education for your children then pay for it yourself and don't ask to be exempted from kicking your share into public education in order to pay for it.  

I don't understand why you can't ask for an exemption to not pay for public education if you decide you want to pay for your kids to go to private school. Even if it's "you have to pay a minimum of $X but not the whole thing, like you would if your kids were going to public schools", and you could offer that to all the DINKs and Private Schoolers in the neighborhoods. I think if you did that you'd have a more robust private school ecosystem and more private schools in the $10-15k tuition range a year to serve the middle class/mid-market, versus the current situation of $25k+/year and a few options lower than that in weird areas of town.

[Helobious 9477]

10 minutes ago, slorch said:

school districts or schools?  Dave Campbell's touts 1400 high school football previews for 2020...but that number also includes privates.

at 1247, that's right at 5 schools per county.   Texas is a big ass state...

Districts sounds right. I can think of 11 school districts in Bexar county alone off the top of my head. SA easily has over 30 public high schools. 

[TexArcher 37455]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

The alternative is pretty fucking scary.  Can you imagine red states being completely in charge of education?  

Mississippi, Alabama, and Arkansas will be illiterate if we wanna be!  It's our heritage!

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I don't understand why you can't ask for an exemption to not pay for public education if you decide you want to pay for your kids to go to private school. Even if it's "you have to pay a minimum of $X but not the whole thing, like you would if your kids were going to public schools", and you could offer that to all the DINKs and Private Schoolers in the neighborhoods. I think if you did that you'd have a more robust private school ecosystem and more private schools in the $10-15k tuition range a year to serve the middle class/mid-market, versus the current situation of $25k+/year and a few options lower than that in weird areas of town.

You're not paying your school taxes just for your kids.  That's the point. School taxes are just the ante, to borrow a poker term.

If want something different, it's another bet... or should be,

Edited July 10, 2020 by slorch

[workswithseed 2033]

4 hours ago, Continental Op said:

Is someone who is never having children getting fucked by having to pay taxes that go to education?  If my house never catches on fire did I spend my whole life getting fucked by paying taxes that went to support the fire department?  

Paying for something you're not using sucks. Paying for something that's more of an insurance doesn't suck as much.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, Bateshorn said:

The convoy can only move as fast as it's slowest ship. And every ship is precious. I can't think of a simpler way to put it.

That is a horrible way to think about how an educational system should or could work. That is an outdated method.

Our county has magnet schools within each home school. You apply to get accepted, and the pace is accelerated or tailored to several particular disciplines: math science, language, gov't studies, art, engineering. Those kids usually finish as first semester college freshman, and get accepted into every school, and military academy in the country.

[Anastasis 23375]

14 minutes ago, slorch said:

You're not paying your school taxes just for your kids.  That's the point. School taxes are just the ante, to borrow a poker term.

The NEA says Texas spent $10,456 per student for the 2017-18 school year.

Anybody have any idea what portion of that are fixed costs vs. actual incremental per student costs?

[TwiceHorn 31184]

19 minutes ago, slorch said:

You're not paying your school taxes just for your kids.  That's the point. School taxes are just the ante, to borrow a poker term.

If want something different, it's another bet... or should be,

SOCIALISM!!!!

[lemonlime 5503]

42 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I don't understand why you can't ask for an exemption to not pay for public education if you decide you want to pay for your kids to go to private school. Even if it's "you have to pay a minimum of $X but not the whole thing, like you would if your kids were going to public schools", and you could offer that to all the DINKs and Private Schoolers in the neighborhoods. I think if you did that you'd have a more robust private school ecosystem and more private schools in the $10-15k tuition range a year to serve the middle class/mid-market, versus the current situation of $25k+/year and a few options lower than that in weird areas of town.

So does this mean I can stop paying for schools altogether since I don't have kids?             

[Judge Roybeanbag 11796]

47 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I don't understand why you can't ask for an exemption to not pay for public education if you decide you want to pay for your kids to go to private school. Even if it's "you have to pay a minimum of $X but not the whole thing, like you would if your kids were going to public schools", and you could offer that to all the DINKs and Private Schoolers in the neighborhoods. I think if you did that you'd have a more robust private school ecosystem and more private schools in the $10-15k tuition range a year to serve the middle class/mid-market, versus the current situation of $25k+/year and a few options lower than that in weird areas of town.

You have to be kidding, right?  So do I get an exemption because I have no kids in school?

[Rougarou 594]

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

So does this mean I can stop paying for schools altogether since I don't have kids?             

I mean, I think it's a winning campaign message, but I might just be one voice in the minority.

Let me preface by saying, I don't care at all in a practical sense. I pay my taxes and will continue to do so without much thought about it and I pay private school tuition because I have made that decision. I'm just saying if we want to talk about idealism, this how I would look at it:

I think there should be some sort of sliding scale or varying degrees of what gets paid in. You have 5 kids and they all are going to be schooled by public schools? That's your choice ad you should pay the max. You are a gay couple and will never have kids, or you send your kids to private school, you pay the minimum or % whatever that works out to be, etc. That's how I'd think a winning compromise would look like. 

 

[Anastasis 23375]

26 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The NEA says Texas spent $10,456 per student for the 2017-18 school year.

Anybody have any idea what portion of that are fixed costs vs. actual incremental per student costs?

So according to this...https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED529881.pdf...the short run variables costs are about 60% in texas. The data are a bit dated, but I doubt that it is very different today vs when it was published.

So 6k per student variable costs in texas based on 2017-2018 expenditures and historical information regarding variable costs. 

The "you just want to defund public education so you can send your kids to private school with the money" argument doesn't check out.  If the school district were to give me a voucher for amount equal to no more than my ISD property tax bill, or the incremental cost per child, to be used exclusively for the education of my children, it appears that they would come out well ahead, and in fact the more children I have it shakes out even better financially for the school district.  Long-run fixed costs would come into a new equilibrium as well, favoring the school district, but we don't even have to do that math to address the "it would result in defunding of public education" argument. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Anastasis

[Continental Op 3934]

If I don't have children do I get my ISD property tax back?  What about Continental Op's Christian Fire Department?  Where do I get my fire department tax money back if I don't want my house under the aegis of a secular fire department?

Edited July 10, 2020 by Continental Op

[Guest Lobo]

Yes, and if you don't visit the hospital or community college, you get those portions of your tax bill back as well.  

The only ones that stay with the State of Texas regardless is our Texas Navy and Texas Marine Corps and Texas Space Force.  

[Anastasis 23375]

4 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

If I don't have children do I get my ISD property tax back?  

I guess if you feel that there is no value to publicly funded education, you can make that argument, but that is a distinct issue and not relevant to what I have suggested. 

[Continental Op 3934]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I guess if you feel that there is no value to publicly funded education, you can make that argument, but that is a distinct issue and not relevant to what I have suggested. 

I'm not contributing to the incremental cost of running my school district, which is the basis of your argument that you should get a tax refund to send your children to private school if that is your choice. Why shouldn't I have to pay anything more than the fixed costs if you don't? 

[Anastasis 23375]

15 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

I'm not contributing to the incremental cost of running my school district, which is the basis of your argument that you should get a tax refund to send your children to private school if that is your choice.

That's actually not my argument.  My argument is that the reduction to the variable costs actually outweighs my contribution, so it is a net positive to the ISD to give me a voucher and send me and my children on our way.

If you don't have children in school, under no situation do you actually contribute to the variable costs by their attendance, so the calculus from the ISD perspective is not the same. 

Under both scenarios, the status quo or my spit ball scenario, we are both contributing equivalently to educational funding.  Under the current framework I extract far more value out of the system than I put in (at least if this is a one year cross sectional look). Under the scenario that I propose, I actually extract less value from the system, and the system comes out financially better.  And parents have greater choice and flexibility.  Choice and flexibility which seems like a good thing as I am staring down the barrel of another semester of patchwork virtual education that will have to be supplemented with parent-directed and funded activities.   

Edited July 10, 2020 by Anastasis

[Continental Op 3934]

I do not use public transportation.  I would like a refund of the variable costs that would be incurred if I took DART rail to work every day so that I can have the choice and flexibility to meet the unique needs of my car by putting premium unleaded in it. 

[JBJ 3647]

3 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

So the national averages are a lie, or your anecdotal situation is the outlier.  What did your spouse teach and where?  

AFAIK no one in this district gets 2 office hours at the elementary level.  They get 1, and that hour has to include parent meetings, which means its not a built in hour to grade papers or prep for the next day.  That hour is also used by the grade level to meet for curriculum AFAIK.  You also have rotational duties (lunch monitoring, bus drop, etc) that bite into those pre and post day hours.  Its been a while since my wife was teaching.  She has been in admin for a while now so my memory is a little rusty on the finer details, but I do know that as a teacher she would regularly put in 9-10 hours, and substantial chunks of weekend days. 

As an administrator, its worse.  She was putting in 12 hours a day as an AP.  She would start her day two hours early so she could work on her normal duties without interruption.  Once the day started, she was swamped with discipline, parents, staff issues, etc.  Admin also gets less time off.  The higher you go, the shorter your summers get.  Shes at the district level now and got a week off this summer.  As an AP I think she got 3 or 4 weeks off.  

Texas, DFW, Elementary, 80% Title 1.  High-performing district and school for their demographics and funding.

I'm sure the national averages are a lie. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

IIRC, the grades officially met once a week during lunch or after release.  The other duties cut in to office time, but they far from dominate it.

[Captainant 27311]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

That's actually not my argument.  My argument is that the reduction to the variable costs actually outweighs my contribution, so it is a net positive to the ISD to give me a voucher and send me and my children on our way.

Ah I see so your desire to redirect public funds away from public schools isn't political, it's economic? Oldie but a goodie

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Ah I see so your desire to redirect public funds away from public schools isn't political, it's economic? Oldie but a goodie

That can't be true. I was told on this very site, multiple times and in threads where politics aren't even welcome, that everything is political...  Must be true......

[elfenix 34168]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

My argument is that the reduction to the variable costs actually outweighs my contribution

marginal cost is a step function.  the reduction of any one kid to the variable cost is near $0.

[JBJ 3647]

4 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

I do not use public transportation.  I would like a refund of the variable costs that would be incurred if I took DART rail to work every day so that I can have the choice and flexibility to meet the unique needs of my car by putting premium unleaded in it. 

You buy a ticket to pay the variable costs for DART.

[Continental Op 3934]

1 minute ago, JBJ said:

You buy a ticket to pay the variable costs for DART.

i'm too lazy to look it up but I am pretty sure that fares do not fully cover the incremental cost of riders.  Also, what about my Christian Fire Department?  

Edited July 10, 2020 by Continental Op

[JBJ 3647]

6 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

i'm too lazy to look it up but I am pretty sure that fares do not fully cover the incremental cost of riders.  

DART is set up to adjust their fares based on incremental costs.  Different passes and legs even have different escalations each year.

Edited July 10, 2020 by JBJ

[Anastasis 23375]

 

4 minutes ago, elfenix said:

marginal cost is a step function.  the reduction of any one kid to the variable cost is near $0.

 

Sure, to really do this right we would have to model it in a particular population where we were not talking about n's of 1 to 3 and a single household, but across the thousands of families within a given ISD.  But I think that there is still merit to the simplistic example for the purposes of this discussion.  

[Continental Op 3934]

2 minutes ago, JBJ said:

DART is set up to adjust their fares based on incremental costs.  Different passes and legs even have different adjustments.

D Magazine says otherwise

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2017/04/would-free-fares-drive-more-people-to-use-public-transit/#:~:text=As it stands%2C Dallas Area,transit is already heavily subsidized.

[Anastasis 23375]

11 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Ah I see so your desire...

I've been clear on my desire, but you seem confused, so I will restate. 

I  would just like a public education system that empowers parents with choice, districts with accountability, and keeps control as local as practical.

 

I am open to other ideas on how to achieve that.  I am not dogmatic about it.  But maybe we can come up with something more than lets just throw more money at status quo centralized decision making and away from parental choice. 

[Continental Op 3934]

Who is taking away from your choice?  Did Public School Shock Troops come to a private school that you tried to send your kids to and march them back to your neighborhood high school at gunpoint?  The existence/funding of DART isn't taking my choice away to pay for and maintain a private automobile. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Continental Op

[cabowabo 4449]

I'm surprised you haven't been suspended or banned for starting this thread.

[Anastasis 23375]

5 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

Who is taking away from your choice?

Coming back to what actually start this whole tangent, there are lots of parents, across the political spectrum and across various levels of ability, staring down the barrel of fall 2020  and actively exploring their options for what education for their children looks like in the near-term future.  It would be nice if we had a system in place that would support their ability to direct and provide safe and effective education. What we have instead is top down decision making driven by bureaucrats who whip everyone downstream with the money we send them to fund public education.  We already had to basically provide the education that the public system was suppose to provide last semester, and the same thing is about to happen again.    

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Continental Op said:

i'm too lazy to look it up but I am pretty sure that fares do not fully cover the incremental cost of riders.  Also, what about my Christian Fire Department?  

don't have a fire on Sunday...

[Nivek 16808]

there's 1,247 public school districts in the state of texas.  that seems like a lot.
edit: that figure includes charter schools counted separately and some specialty schools. looks like the figure is just a bit over 1000 for traditional districts.

I am certain there is little to no administrative redundancy (>$100k) that could be reallocated to the classroom if these were consolidated.

[workswithseed 2033]

26 minutes ago, cabowabo said:

I'm surprised you haven't been suspended or banned for starting this thread.

You should stay around.