Brothahorn's Conservative Thread

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Magnet programs are usually used to prop up an underperforming school, and in my experience attending a public magnet school, it was a great experience. It got me out of my bubble and let me make friends with people from other socio-econimic groups my parents wouldn't have put me around otherwise.

Magnet schools are not charter schools.

Fair enough.  My post regarding reading, and hearing reports about charter schools stands.

[elfenix 34168]

3 hours ago, Poolflood said:

You have a source for this statement?

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Shit, I know that magnet programs increase kids overall test scores. I've seen (and heard several NPR based reports) those studies as well.

Low achievers go to the magnet programs, right?

Both of my kids' SAT and ACT scores all improved throughout high school.

It's a normal fucking progression.  In the military academy application process the number one thing they tell candidates:  keep taking the tests and improve your scores.  Miraculously, almost all of them improve...

Edited July 11, 2020 by slorch

[SubliminalHorn 6648]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Fair enough.  My post regarding reading, and hearing reports about charter schools stands.

Ok your anecdote stands. It’s still worth nothing, but sure, it stands. 

[workswithseed 2033]

It's nice to see some of y'all again, if this keeps up we might get Escriva, and a few others back here.

Edited July 11, 2020 by workswithseed

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

5 hours ago, Poolflood said:

Agree.  Cat made a very specific claim I was questioning.

While there are a number of articles written by left leaning writers detailing my claim I figured they wouldn't be persuasive to someone who is conservative or neutral on the issue.  So here's an article by noted conservative David French conceding that it was the initial organizing catalyst, but leaders realized that it alone wouldn't be a winning issue to galvanize a widespread movement so ultimately they develop a full pallet or organizing principles to appeal to a wider Christian audience. The word I used was catalyst which to me implies that it fueled the beginnings of  the movement. 

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/fact-and-fiction-about-racism-and

 

His contention is curious because that's the exact same thing the article he's disagreeing with (same article that @elfenixresponded to you with) claimed as well. 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[BradInATX 9208]

Who needs mountains of scientific evidence when you've got a personal bias and anecdotal evidence based on a tiny worldview!

[Nivek 16808]

8 hours ago, elfenix said:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

OK but do you have another non-factually biased source?

[Poolflood 845]

8 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

While there are a number of articles written by left leaning writers detailing my claim I figured they wouldn't be persuasive to someone who is conservative or neutral on the issue.  So here's an article by noted conservative David French conceding that it was the initial organizing catalyst, but leaders realized that it alone wouldn't be a winning issue to galvanize a widespread movement so ultimately they develop a full pallet or organizing principles to appeal to a wider Christian audience. The word I used was catalyst which to me implies that it fueled the beginnings of  the movement. 

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/fact-and-fiction-about-racism-and

 

His contention is curious because that's the exact same thing the article he's disagreeing with (same article that @elfenixresponded to you with) claimed as well. 

 

So ummmm. 

Quote

So, what is the truth here? Does the pro-life movement have racist roots? The short answer is “not really.” The longer answer is complicated. 

His summary is that there's an overlap of southern racists and evangelicals in the 60's and 70's.  That's a long way from your claim

 

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

1 hour ago, Poolflood said:

So ummmm. 

His summary is that there's an overlap of southern racists and evangelicals in the 60's and 70's.  That's a long way from your claim

 

He concedes that it motivated Fallwell and Weyrich who were pretty much the founders of the religious right.  After all, just a decade before the recognized beginning of the religious right,  Falwell argued vehemently against MLK and others saying that clergy shouldn't be involved in national politics.  Regardless of whether you buy his argument, substantive points can be made supporting Balmer's thesis just as French eloquently argued against it. You still have to admit that the idea that evangelicals were once neutral if not supportive of abortion seems wholly antithetical to anything most of us have grown up with. So that bit of news was a big revelation the first time I came across it. 

 

Here's the original work on the topic produced by the Dartmouth prof Randall Balmer.

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/andrea-mitchell-center/sites/www.sas.upenn.edu.andrea-mitchell-center/files/Balmer - Historian's Pickaxe.pdf

Edited July 12, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[Anastasis 23375]

1 hour ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You still have to admit that the idea that evangelicals were once neutral if not supportive of abortion seems wholly antithetical to anything most of us have grown up with.

Politics around abortion in this country is an interesting story arc. Read a bit on Sanger and her beliefs. 

[workswithseed 2033]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Politics around abortion in this country is an interesting story arc. Read a bit on Sanger and her beliefs. 

She loved blacks.

[Anastasis 23375]

3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

She loved blacks.

Especially aborted ones. 

[Anastasis 23375]

Curious that in these times of appropriate reflection on the racist history of American institutions, Planned parenthood has managed to fly right under the radar. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Anastasis

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

Religion tends be viewed through a more rigid lens than an entities like planned parenthood where people come and go and agendas change and evolve as they do.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[Mole 4318]

I haven’t had time yet to read the links yet, so maybe it’s addressed there. I have little doubt that the consensus view of abortion among the more vehement pro-life denominations today (eg, SBC) has shifted in a relatively short period of time to the hardline stance we all know today.
 

What I haven’t seen addressed (again, I don’t know if it’s in the links above yet) is how much comes from shifting attitudes (SBC members becoming pro-life) or shifting memberships (there are many groups that are formerly SBC that have split for various reasons). What you hear from diehard SBCers today is that there was a protracted battle for the soul of the SBC between liberals and conservatives and the conservatives won (meaning the liberals SBCers are now something else).
 

Basically, did how much of it was a changing viewpoint (members changing from pro-choice to pro-life) and how much of it was changing alignments and populations (pro-choicers going elsewhere and pro-lifers flocking yo these denominations)? It’s probably a little of both, but getting an idea of how much might alter the perception of what went on.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Mole

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Curious that in these times of appropriate reflection on the racist history of American institutions, Planned parenthood has managed to fly right under the radar. 

well, the pro-lifers see it as a travesty.  The pro-choicers see it as a celebration of women's rights.   They both are absolutely right from their perspective.

The demographics you are alluding to with regard to PP could be either tragic as hell or cause for celebration/ optimism.

Edited July 12, 2020 by slorch

[Captainant 27311]

3 minutes ago, slorch said:

well, the pro-lifers see it as a travesty.  The pro-choicers see it as a celebration of women's rights.   They both are absolutely right from their perspective.

The demographics you are alluding to with regard to PP could be either tragic as hell or liberating.

PP isn't just an abortion clinic, for many communities it's the only place women can go see an OBGYN and take care of their health needs

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Captainant said:

PP isn't just an abortion clinic, for many communities it's the only place women can go see an OBGYN and take care of their health needs

I understand.  No dispute whatsoever.

The elephant in the room is the fact that a black woman is twice as likely as other races to have an abortion.  I stand by my statement, that depending upon one's perspective, it's either terrible or beautiful and both opinions could be correct.

[Nivek 16808]

Curious that in these times of appropriate reflection on the racist history of American institutions, Planned parenthood has managed to fly right under the radar. 

You drive a BMW right?

[Poolflood 845]

8 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

He concedes that it motivated Fallwell and Weyrich who were pretty much the founders of the religious right.  After all, just a decade before the recognized beginning of the religious right,  Falwell argued vehemently against MLK and others saying that clergy shouldn't be involved in national politics.  Regardless of whether you buy his argument, substantive points can be made supporting Balmer's thesis just as French eloquently argued against it. You still have to admit that the idea that evangelicals were once neutral if not supportive of abortion seems wholly antithetical to anything most of us have grown up with. So that bit of news was a big revelation the first time I came across it. 

 

Here's the original work on the topic produced by the Dartmouth prof Randall Balmer.

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/andrea-mitchell-center/sites/www.sas.upenn.edu.andrea-mitchell-center/files/Balmer - Historian's Pickaxe.pdf

It adds nuance but still a far cry from your assertion to which I reacted.  But do appreciate the information.  

Segregation roots, formally and informally, are deep seated and ugly across both parties.

 

[Anastasis 23375]

45 minutes ago, Nivek said:

You drive a BMW right?

No, but I did watch finding forrester once.

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

You're the man now, dog. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

 

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Politics around abortion in this country is an interesting story arc. Read a bit on Sanger and her beliefs. 

Do you mean actually, or just recite Republican catechesis?

8 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Especially aborted ones. 

Evidently the latter.

7 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Curious that in these times of appropriate reflection on the racist history of American institutions, Planned parenthood has managed to fly right under the radar. 

Yeah, nobody ever talks about Planned Parenthood or it's founder, Donald. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Bozo_Casanova

[wildcat09 29187]

I heard that actually the Klan founded PP. People are saying it.

[Rougarou 594]

I heard PP was selling aborted body parts a few years ago, from a guy at work who is super alt-right. He claimed there was video evidence of it, but whether true or untrue I’ve always had that image/thought in my mind when I hear PP.

[Anastasis 23375]

We're all eugenicists now, dawg. 

[wildcat09 29187]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

We're all eugenicists now, dawg. 

To be fair to eugenicists, we let our dumb people breed and look what resulted.

Of course, every other country let their dumb breed as well and most are doing much better, so the problem is probably something else. I blame Oklahoma.

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

[Anastasis 23375]

Consequences of breeding from stock lacking human vitality always will give us social problems and perpetuate institutions of charity and crime.

 

Who said it?

 

OR

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

To be fair to eugenicists, we let our dumb people breed and look what resulted.

Keep that kind of talk up and we are going to have to restrict you from making anymore airplane engines. 

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

Should have added "Black Lives Matter!!!", imo. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Consequences of breeding from stock lacking human vitality always will give us social problems and perpetuate institutions of charity and crime.

 

Who said it?

 

OR

Wow, a social progressive was also bought into eugenics in the 1920's and 30s? GTFO

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Wow, a social progressive was also bought into eugenics in the 1920's and 30s? GTFO

Wow, an agricultural entrepreneur was also bought into slavery in the 1820's and 30s? GTFO. 

[Anastasis 23375]

Social progressives, forming a better society since 1920.  One way or the other.

 

 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Wow, an agricultural entrepreneur was also bought into slavery in the 1820's and 30s? GTFO. 

I read this comeback in Ben Shapiro's voice. 

[Nivek 16808]

Both sides!

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I read this comeback in Ben Shapiro's voice. 

Whatever it takes to help you see by reflection how shallow the initial statement was. 

[Anastasis 23375]

4 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Both sides!

But meh 3 series!

[Captainant 27311]

Damn Annie, who pissed in your Cheerios this morning? You're extra equivocating today. Must be the rush of victory from seeing ya boi Stone go free

[Anastasis 23375]

3 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Damn Annie, who pissed in your Cheerios this morning?

Shit man.  This is just me having a laugh with you chuckle fucks before I make brunch for the kids (Sanger-approved offspring the result of superior human vitality, imo). 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Whatever it takes to help you see by reflection how shallow the initial statement was. 

Your initial statement? Absolutely. I'm not defending or excusing eugenics and the politics of race and birth control in the 1920's are most certainly intertwined, but the idea that it has somehow evaded attention or that Margaret Sanger's involvement with blacks can be shorthanded to abortion is unserious partisan garbage. 

[Anastasis 23375]

6 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I'm not defending or excusing eugenics

You just did, by attempting to dismiss criticism with a hand wave and a contemporary context argument.

Race is intertwined with just about every aspect of American society and politics.  Some of those intersections get amplified focus and are currently subject to an overdue critical eye, others...well...you the man now, dog. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Anastasis

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You just did, by attempting to dismiss criticism with a hand wave and a contemporary context argument.

Race is intertwined with just about every aspect of American society and politics.  Some of those intersections get amplified focus and are currently subject to an overdue critical eye, others...well...you the man now, dog. 

No, I didn't. I just said it is the context. So Take it up with WEB Du Bois, because there was a lot of that going around in those days.  Was he mostly trying to abort blacks through his involvement with the birth control movement? Context matters.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Bozo_Casanova

[wildcat09 29187]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Yeah, nobody ever talks about Planned Parenthood or it's founder, Donald. 

Anastasis seems to have either missed this or not understood it.

[Nivek 16808]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

But meh 3 series!

I figured you for a 5 series. 

[workswithseed 2033]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Wow, a social progressive was also bought into eugenics in the 1920's and 30s? GTFO

We're taking down statues of founders cause they owned slaves.

[Anastasis 23375]

26 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

No, I didn't. I just said it is the context. So Take it up with WEB Du Bois, because there was a lot of that going around in those days.  Was he mostly trying to abort blacks through his involvement with the birth control movement? Context matters.  

WEB Du Bois advocated class-based eugenics like Margaret Sanger? 

 

 

[workswithseed 2033]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

WEB Du Bois advocated class-based eugenics like Margaret Sanger? 

 

 

You know what, if PP just stopped the whole abortion thing, then a lot of people would stop arguing about its existence. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by workswithseed
It's is not its

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

21 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

We're taking down statues of founders cause they owned slaves.

Who is "we"?