Evangelicals and Trump

[Nice Guy Eddie 13412]

Interview with a Calvin College professor who writes about the evangelical movement in the US. She rejects the notion they "holding their noses" to vote for Trump.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/9/21291493/donald-trump-evangelical-christians-kristin-kobes-du-mez

The basis of the interview is that she doesn’t believe that many evangelicals secretly hate voting for Trump or that they only accept him because of the court nominations; instead they love him for who exactly who he is.

She writes that many evangelicals have embraced a militant view of religion to admire the strong, aggressive leader and not the humble, thoughtful leader. John Wayne good. Mr. Rogers bad.

They feel oppressed or that their views on the world are being oppressed and that Trump is with them. Therefore, they’re proud to stand with and vote for Trump regardless of his personal views or hypocritical actions.

She says the only complaint that she hears about Trump is that evangelicals wish he would tweet less. Most likely not because they disagree with his tweets but rather because it exposes their viewpoints and force them to openly defend it to some extent.

[tx 3 putt 76371]

Both are false prophets. 
 

god sent trump to the evangelicals to test them and they failed 

[TXSG8R 3360]

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Interview with a Calvin College professor who writes about the evangelical movement in the US. She rejects the notion they "holding their noses" to vote for Trump.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/9/21291493/donald-trump-evangelical-christians-kristin-kobes-du-mez

The basis of the interview is that she doesn’t believe that many evangelicals secretly hate voting for Trump or that they only accept him because of the court nominations; instead they love him for who exactly who he is.

She writes that many evangelicals have embraced a militant view of religion to admire the strong, aggressive leader and not the humble, thoughtful leader. John Wayne good. Mr. Rogers bad.

They feel oppressed or that their views on the world are being oppressed and that Trump is with them. Therefore, they’re proud to stand with and vote for Trump regardless of his personal views or hypocritical actions.

She says the only complaint that she hears about Trump is that evangelicals wish he would tweet less. Most likely not because they disagree with his tweets but rather because it exposes their viewpoints and force them to openly defend it to some extent.

Hard to disagree.  American evangelicals have strayed so far from the teachings in the bible that its hard to call them Christians most days.  The prosperity gospel stuff is a no-brainer, but even many regular Christian's views on immigration, social safety nets, basic human empathy, etc just doesnt remotely look Christian when you make them spell it out.  Many feel like their tithing and spending Sundays in a big building singing allows them to justify any other position they have.   

[TwiceHorn 31272]

I wish I had saved the link, but I think @Mole posted a very insightful article from some religion blog that basically said evangelicals have a very limited world view that relies on an existential belief that America is exceptional as-is and that change threatens that world view and thus their faith, so it winds up that they very much align with Trump's outward manifestations.

This seems to echo a lot of that.

Edited July 10, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Foosters 17732]

Wait, folks were still under the impression that evangelicals are good people?

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

Frank Schaeffer is my favorite evangelical movement critic because he was one of the people responsible for it and he doesn’t sugar coat it today.  They’re a fucking cult.

 

[Mole 4320]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I wish I had saved the link, but I think @Mole posted a very insightful article from some religion blog that basically said evangelicals have a very limited world view that relies on an existential belief that America is exceptional as-is and that change threatens that world view and thus their faith, so it winds up that they very much align with Trump's outward manifestations.

This seems to echo a lot of that.

That sounds like it aligns with my interests, but I have no memory of this article. Maybe it will come back to me. Maybe they were talking about The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind?

[TwiceHorn 31272]

5 minutes ago, Mole said:

That sounds like it aligns with my interests, but I have no memory of this article. Maybe it will come back to me. Maybe they were talking about The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind?

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

[Guest]

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Edited July 10, 2020 by slorch

[hookemATL 11610]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

Fundamentally that has proven to be the case. Trump represented/currently represents everything Christianity should oppose on a very elemental level. 

but fair point, I am so sure we’d be praying to Mecca 5 times a day and radicalizing like a mofo if Hillary was in charge. 
 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, hookemATL said:

Fundamentally that has proven to be the case. Trump represented/currently represents everything Christianity should oppose on a very elemental level. 

but fair point, I am so sure we’d be praying to Mecca 5 times a day and radicalizing like a mofo if Hillary was in charge. 
 

Lolz. I meant from a character POV, not denomination or sect.  We were basically choosing from chopped shit sandwich or shit soup.

 

Then after the fact, people are saying, “You dumbasses chose shit!”

[The Dog 43803]

I like Vox but reading that site to understand religious conservatives is like reading National Review to understand progressives. 

Take it with a large grain of salt.

[NWBuck 8547]

I can understand Evangelicals who voted for Trump in '16- SCOTUS appointments, hating Hilary, "Pro-life = Vote R".  I don't agree with any of it, but I logically and cognitively understand it (just as I also understand the underlying fear of "other" that these folks have... brown people, gays, people from other faiths, etc.). Those are the folks that the author of this article referred to as "hold your nose" Evangelical voters. (it's also interesting that they can't understand that there might be progressives who are holding our nose and voting against Trump)

But, in my humble online opinion, if you claim relationship with God through the redemption of Christ (and believe that you should follow Christ's teachings) and vote for Trump again given all that he's done (including SCOTUS appointments that seem to be a huge dis-appointments)... just stop calling yourself a Christian. Because you're obviously worshiping a different, orange bloated, God.

This is the world that I was brought up in, educated in, worked (and still work) in, and am ordained in. I've worked really hard to "love the Voter and hate their Vote", and to try to be the voice of scriptural reason amidst Fox News bullshit.  Even though I know people have tuned me out and condemned me to hell, I've not intentionally severed relationships with anyone based on their beliefs, even if I've created boundaries out of respect for my bi-racial family. 

That will change in November. Win or lose, if you continue to vote for and support that man... I'm knocking the dust off my feet and rolling.

(fun fact- since everyone wore sandals and such and with public sanitation being what it was for animals and humans, "knocking the dust off" can be understood/translated as "I'm not taking any more of your shit").

[NWBuck 8547]

3 minutes ago, The Dog said:

I like Vox but reading that site to understand religious conservatives is like reading National Review to understand progressives. 

Take it with a large grain of salt.

That's a great point... Christianity Today (founded by Billy Graham) has been saying similar things for a while now.

(also, I've worked with Dr. Kobes Du Mez, and am looking forward to her book.)

[BrickHorn 18191]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't

I agree with this 100%. Just like every religion ever, Christianity is completely fabricated nonsense. It’s malleable. It can be whatever you want it to be and justify whatever you want it to. Even an evil monster like a Trump.

[ChiTownDoc 21101]

The only crazy thing to me is that some people (like OP?) seem surprised by all of this.  This is exactly who they want.  Evangelicals are the modern day Romans.  All of it makes complete sense.  

[Dutchrudder 11115]

How do they explain him to their kids?

[Beau Vine 54001]

https://www.pewforum.org/2020/03/12/white-evangelicals-see-trump-as-fighting-for-their-beliefs-though-many-have-mixed-feelings-about-his-personal-conduct/

They're just idiots.

 

 

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

Evanglicalism as a movement is based on inclusion and isn't a constructive or enlightened movement in itself.  Add into what it evolved to in America -- a largely agrarian, uneducated, predominant white following (81%) and you have a religious community which reflects it's demographic/political one and vice versa.  It certainly is rooted in our beginnings as a country and the largely WASPs who fled Europe for a new land and opportunity.  Now, those are based on generalities and there are always outliers, but Protestantism is largely a white movement which has invaded into its political leanings and largely been hijacked by leaders who exploit the rank and file for their own enrichment -- in this respect..

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

Wait, what Black Protestantism isn't a thing?

And how many Evangelicals are still agrarian?

And how is White Evangecalism inclusive if it's White?

[wildcat09 29243]

Some of you are thinking way too hard about this. They're just the taliban, that's all they are. Small, resentful, regressive little men (mostly) who hate change and hunger for the power to control others, because that power makes them feel strong. Religion has always been a very convenient tool for their kind and it doesn't much matter what religion it is.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

18 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, what Black Protestantism isn't a thing?

And how many Evangelicals are still agrarian?

And how is White Evangecalism inclusive if it's White?

1.  Who says it's not.  We're talking about Evangelical Protestants.  

2.  Agrarian or small town, probably better termed, communities is where the movement started and the proportions are still skewed.  The modern US movement is generally thought of to begin in North Carolina and about half are still in the South.  Additionally, blue collar towns or small towns still carry a greater percentage of EPs than cities, which tend to skew with a more diverse religious demographic and their protestantism is more mainline (term used by Pew).

3.  Damn autocorrect!  Should have written "exclusive".  Good catch.

 

[formermav43 4599]

3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

I also don't recall that, though, like @Mole, it sounds like something I *could* have posted. I'll try to search my memory banks, maybe I'll come up with something.

Edited July 10, 2020 by formermav43

[Pescado_Rojo 19331]

I think I've posted this article before when the topic turns to White Evangelicals, but I think it's a good read. 

Why White Evangelicalism Is So Cruel

And another piece from the same author..

Apocalypse Now: Why Republicans are Destroying The World

[JBJ 3649]

A few things:

1) Momentum from Reagan and GWB (McCain, Huckabee, and Romney as well)

2) Enforced secularism from the far left and lack of support for religious freedom from the traditional left.

3) There really is a moral divide at the philosophical level between the parties that goes deeper than the current candidate.  I.E. virtuism and Kantianism vs relativism and subjectivism.

4) Leviathan.

[HornOnTheBayou 8881]

5 hours ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Thinking back to 2016, here's what we knew about Trump: has three wives, slept with several models, bragged about sexual harassment, mocked the disabled, probably paid for multiple abortions, and wanted to hurt the poor

Clinton: once said she didn't want to be a stay-at-home mom; tried to give all Americans access to health care; once lied about a plane landing in Yugoslavia.

Where is the problem?

[tx 3 putt 76371]

it's all a last grasp to hold on to a 'white america' 

[Yuk 1509]

6 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A few things:

1) Momentum from Reagan and GWB (McCain, Huckabee, and Romney as well)

2) Enforced secularism from the far left and lack of support for religious freedom from the traditional left.

3) There really is a moral divide at the philosophical level between the parties that goes deeper than the current candidate.  I.E. virtuism and Kantianism vs relativism and subjectivism.

4) Leviathan.

Kantianism especially as it pertains to Kant's views on race.

[Sawbonz 27428]

34 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

Thinking back to 2016, here's what we knew about Trump: has three wives, slept with several models, bragged about sexual harassment, mocked the disabled, probably paid for multiple abortions, and wanted to hurt the poor

Clinton: once said she didn't want to be a stay-at-home mom; tried to give all Americans access to health care; once lied about a plane landing in Yugoslavia.

Where is the problem?

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

[Nivek 16859]

Interview with a Calvin College professor who writes about the evangelical movement in the US. She rejects the notion they "holding their noses" to vote for Trump.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/9/21291493/donald-trump-evangelical-christians-kristin-kobes-du-mez
The basis of the interview is that she doesn’t believe that many evangelicals secretly hate voting for Trump or that they only accept him because of the court nominations; instead they love him for who exactly who he is.
She writes that many evangelicals have embraced a militant view of religion to admire the strong, aggressive leader and not the humble, thoughtful leader. John Wayne good. Mr. Rogers bad.
They feel oppressed or that their views on the world are being oppressed and that Trump is with them. Therefore, they’re proud to stand with and vote for Trump regardless of his personal views or hypocritical actions.
She says the only complaint that she hears about Trump is that evangelicals wish he would tweet less. Most likely not because they disagree with his tweets but rather because it exposes their viewpoints and force them to openly defend it to some extent.

I thought everybody already knew this.

[HornOnTheBayou 8881]

14 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

For the record: I am 100% with you. My issue is with evangelicals who try and say, "What? Trump stands against every Biblical principle there is? Whaaaa?!?!" I mean, I'll give him Commandment #5, but without a doubt, he breaks the other 9 on a daily basis (and brags about most of them). 

[Sawbonz 27428]

59 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

For the record: I am 100% with you. My issue is with evangelicals who try and say, "What? Trump stands against every Biblical principle there is? Whaaaa?!?!" I mean, I'll give him Commandment #5, but without a doubt, he breaks the other 9 on a daily basis (and brags about most of them). 

I think many of them are truly hoping for the End Times and the rest are modern day puritans (ie “Christian” taliban)

[TwiceHorn 31272]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I think many of them are truly hoping for the End Times and the rest are modern day puritans (ie “Christian” taliban)

Lotta those mofos gonna get a rude surprise if the End Times come.  /Left Behind

[TwiceHorn 31272]

7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

Actually, upon reviewing his post here, I think it was @NWBuck that posted from the blog about evangelicals and their affinity for what I will abbreviate as "American nationalism."

[Aqua Buddha 14510]

Tell them the virus is a pox from God for electing Donald Trump and watch their heads spin.

[Aqua Buddha 14510]

Evangelicals love Trump because he plays to their victim hood and grievance.  Destine being in control of everything and having nothing to impede anything they want, they believe they are complete victims.  

Remember, the three legged stool of modern conservatism is victimhood/grievance, false equivalency, and conspiracy theories.

[wildcat09 29243]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

[SydneyCarton 47876]

5 hours ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I think I've posted this article before when the topic turns to White Evangelicals, but I think it's a good read. 

Why White Evangelicalism Is So Cruel

And another piece from the same author..

Apocalypse Now: Why Republicans are Destroying The World

These Have been great reads, thank you. 

[Macanudo 12926]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

I thought everybody already knew this.

You see, what the book presupposes is that Custer didn't die at the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

[Sawbonz 27428]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

Hindsight is always 2020 but imagine if Obama had picked a young up and comer for his 2nd term running mate instead of keeping Biden on the ticket. Clinton would have had a fit though esp if it had been a woman 

[Firemans4Horn 17830]

[WhatTheBuck 28711]

2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn

Cleared the field? Give us names. Who did the Dem establishment clear? Who were the qualified candidates that wanted the nomination but were prevented from running by the Dem establishment and what specifically did the Dem establishment do to clear them? Surely you're not suggesting they killed Beau Biden. 

[ruitxn 295]

40 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

Really how much has really changed in 2020.  Hopefully, the electorate sees beyond Trump.  I wonder how much democratic leadership has really changed.

 

[Sawbonz 27428]

6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Cleared the field? Give us names. Who did the Dem establishment clear? Who were the qualified candidates that wanted the nomination but were prevented from running by the Dem establishment and what specifically did the Dem establishment do to clear them? Surely you're not suggesting they killed Beau Biden. 

So you are saying no one but Bernie wanted to run? Sure guy

[Satchel 6908]

9 hours ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Serious question. Why wasn’t voting for the alternative to Trump the more Christian thing to do?

[Sawbonz 27428]

It’s easy to imagine Democrats who mighthave run in 2016. There’s Biden and Warren and Hickenlooper, but there was also New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, and Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, to name just a few. But all of these candidates, and all the other candidates like them, ultimately passed on the race. Why?http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/14/16640082/donna-brazile-warren-bernie-sanders-democratic-primary-rigged

[F250 28682]

6 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, what Black Protestantism isn't a thing?

And how many Evangelicals are still agrarian?

And how is White Evangecalism inclusive if it's White?

Yeah, that post was word salad. I have a lot of criticisms of Evangelicals but whatever that poster said was nonsense.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6554]

Can someone explain too me how Christians are persecuted in this country?  I am not saying all Christians are bad and not trying to argue the merits of religion.  I mean I see a church on every corner.  Christians are free to go to church, pray, do whatever they want as far as religion goes.  The main restraint of Christians in the US is what?  They can’t do religious stuff at a public school and this is what gets their panties in a wad?  They can’t treat gay people differently than everyone else so that makes them the ones that are persecuted?  I mean I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc... complaining about being persecuted so I find it strange that the religion that most people belong to in this country are the ones crying out for help.  Now if we were crucifying Christians on every corner and feeding them to the lions then maybe they would have a valid reason to bitch.

[NWBuck 8547]

5 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Can someone explain too me how Christians are persecuted in this country?  I am not saying all Christians are bad and not trying to argue the merits of religion.  I mean I see a church on every corner.  Christians are free to go to church, pray, do whatever they want as far as religion goes.  The main restraint of Christians in the US is what?  They can’t do religious stuff at a public school and this is what gets their panties in a wad?  They can’t treat gay people differently than everyone else so that makes them the ones that are persecuted?  I mean I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc... complaining about being persecuted so I find it strange that the religion that most people belong to in this country are the ones crying out for help.  Now if we were crucifying Christians on every corner and feeding them to the lions then maybe they would have a valid reason to bitch.

See, that's just it. They're not persecuted; at least no where near the level that many of our sisters and brothers in the developing world have been for their faith (fun fact: Those are the areas where the Church may actually be growing the fastest).
But they know that they should be... otherwise, they're "in the world", and they know that they're supposed to be different. So, they create things that show their "persecution", which (as you identified, are most often nothing more than "we want everyone to do things our way because it's easier for us to have our beliefs affirmed and central".

Can't have an open moment of sectarian prayer in school led by a school staff person? Persecution. Someone might say "Happy Holidays" and not "Merry Christmas"? Persecution. Super Bowl held on a Sunday night so people won't go to church? Persecution (this was a serious thing my mom believed). Remember, these are the folks who played records backwards to look for ways the devil was out to get them... while ignoring the Reagan administration gutting the social network that sought to help do the things that Jesus taught about.

It's been said before: "You know you have privilege when equality feels like oppression". Many Christians in America have yet to have any sort of reckoning with the privilege and blessing and power and influence that they have and have had for years... but it's coming. And when it does, these supposedly sanctified snowflakes will reach deep for the faith that should sustain them as it sustains believers all around the world... and find instead that their faith is as shallow and artificial as the orange hued "President Cyrus"  they've elected.

[MaybeACoordinator 8349]

13 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Can someone explain too me how Christians are persecuted in this country?  I am not saying all Christians are bad and not trying to argue the merits of religion.  I mean I see a church on every corner.  Christians are free to go to church, pray, do whatever they want as far as religion goes.  The main restraint of Christians in the US is what?  They can’t do religious stuff at a public school and this is what gets their panties in a wad?  They can’t treat gay people differently than everyone else so that makes them the ones that are persecuted?  I mean I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc... complaining about being persecuted so I find it strange that the religion that most people belong to in this country are the ones crying out for help.  Now if we were crucifying Christians on every corner and feeding them to the lions then maybe they would have a valid reason to bitch.

They aren't but they want something to whine about. They see all these people with legit grievances and they feel left out so they get their knickers in a twist and say they are the real victims here. And yeah, they've blurred the line between patriotism and faith in a way that is hard for me to comprehend. I grew up Catholic in Texas and Tennessee and it kind of set me apart from the mainstream, especially from evangelicals, and the way they mix flag and faith is mind bottling to me. You just don't get that in the Catholic church. Just a few years ago I saw (on Youtube) a Baptist outdoor sunrise Easter morning service that kicked off with the fucking Pledge of Allegiance. To me that's surreal -- we never said the pledge at my HS at all. We said the Lord's Prayer and some Hail Marys and lesser prayers but the idea that our faith and our country were commingled simply didn't exist. Believe it or not Mormons are the same way -- if anybody hates evangelicals more than atheists or Catholics it's them, and my Mormon bishop buddy is as freaked out by that mixing as I am.

He's still in his faith and I am not still in mine...But this mixing of God and Caesar is one reason they remain the way they are. They really do believe Jesus is 'Merican, is always strapped, hates brown people in general, and loves rich white Americans.