Evangelicals and Trump

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

22 hours ago, Mole said:

Regarding Trump vs. Biden, if you choose not to decide, you still have made of choice:

 

 

This thread could be a useful discussion, but it largely has fallen back into predicable railing against Trump and his supporters (a reasonable approach, but not really productive anymore).

As for the why, I don't think it's very productive to simply write off large portions of the population is inherently evil, even if they are very wrong in this case for pretty terrible reasons. I don't have a coherent reason for the why of Evangelical support for Trump, but I have a grab bag of possible reasons.

1. We're all pretty dumb, Trumper and non-Trumper alike. Even the smartest and most thoughtful among us have lots of bias in their thinking. The world is very confusing and complicated, particularly over the past 6 months or so. We come to conclusions and reason our way backwards. We all necessarily take many mental shortcuts and sometimes those shortcuts lead us to terrible conclusions. It takes a lot to overcome this, but we typically revert back to our identity rather than reasoning through problems.

2. This isn't a battle of ideas or even values, but one of identity. A certain portion of it is probably racial identity (white supremacy), but I suspect that left leaning folks overestimate how much this plays a role. Even the president of the SBC declared that "Black Live Matter because Jesus died for them." There are broader cultural identity issues at play here. Consider how this board frames the Evangelical issue: the people on the other side of the cultural divide would see most of this board in a similar negative light. The other side sees you the same way you see them because there is a cultural identity war going on. While there is a conflict of values and ideas, the ultimate conflict is in identity.

3. Trump thrives in this cultural war. He creates wedges where none are needed since they serve him politically. In one respect, he's right about the masks - they are symbols of political and cultural identity. Of course, Trump created or at least amplified this wedge, but it is no doubt there. This is why people are losing their minds over the masks. It's the cultural war right in/on their face.

4. Abortion and gay marriage. These are the elephants in the room that fit pretty neatly along party lines. This wasn't always the case. They are the ultimate symbols and catalysts for cultural identity. Regardless of the cynicism of the pro-life movement, particularly in light of the COVID-19 response, if you see abortion as equivalent to murder (or even much less, but still something profoundly wrong), it can be hard to get past the stark division between parties. There's a place to discuss whether or not the pro-life movement actually has an interest in abortion or just the wedge issue of abortion (I believe that it is largely a cynical movement among those in power), but there are still an astounding number of abortions that grieve the pro-life believer to the point where a deal with the devil might start to seem reasonable. We aways seem to just need one more Supreme Court Justice.

5. As for gay marriage, it's a similar cultural identifier. When the Supreme Court made their ruling, I remember the profound sense of mourning by many in my church the following Sunday. They weren't mourning the loss of their ability to control the lives of others; they were mourning that they believed that our country was turning further from God. The New Testament "clobber passages" about homosexuality discuss it in terms of a signifier of an increasingly sinful culture, so if you start with the Evangelical premise, the logic mostly holds up. The subsequent gay cake wars have only hardened the divide.

6. Many Evangelicals see progressive culture as openly antagonistic towards them. I'd say this is largely accurate and it's broader and longer lasting than the Trump phenomenon. Trump is the flashpoint because he's so objectively terrible, but he's not the only issue. Trump has taken up the mantle of the defender of Evangelical identity. Since he's taken on this role but also such an openly terrible person, we see the Bible twisting to declare him the modern day version of various terrible people from the Bible.

7. As a Christian who would probably be labeled Evangelical, the Trump movement has been despairing. Watching my Christian brothers and sisters turn to what amounts to an entirely different and worldly faith has been difficult. Idolatry is brutal and destructive. For those who are anti-religion, you can take some consolation in the fact that Trump has damaged the American church far more than he's damaged the country. Even as our country burns and dies, his movement has killed most of the American church. Much of it is preaching a false gospel and the rest is damaged by association.

In short, there's been a conflict of cultures going on in this country for some time. Trump has played this conflict masterfully and positioned himself as the defender of the faith (Fidei defensor) and the standard bearer for one side of this conflict. The fact that his personal values don't seem to align in any way with the faith or side he defends is almost irrelevant. He is going on the offensive in the culture war and winning victories. When it feels like the broader culture is so against you, this can feel cathartic. Yay team!

There's a certain irony in a faith that places so much focus on the end times and staying on God's side deciding to cast aside their values to win a worldly battle led by someone such as Trump. Abortion, gay marriage, and other cultural changes were seen as a sign of the times and they've indirectly led us to a leader that has brought both the country and the church to the brink. The pro-life movement led us to more death while doing little to curb abortion. Some might see what's happening as a judgement of God against the worldly church; others might see it as karma or the simulation breaking down. Whatever it is, it's some great dramatic writing.

Very well said. Concur in like 95% of what you wrote. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

This is a major reason the religious right is criticized, they have abandoned any notion of a Christian categorical imperative in exchange for an "end justifies the means" consequential strategy.

It is also something that is causing issues within their community and it doesn't seem like this will be resolved anytime soon. I was surprised how Christianity Today received so much pushback for reminding their fellow Evangelical Christians that Christian morality is absolute and not to be sacrificed for the sake of political gain.

 

 

 https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html

 

Yep. That Christianity today you quoted is absolutely spot on. Trump is destroying the GOP with his toxic brand and he’s going to do the same to the church for throwing in with him. 
I actually thought he’d stab the SoCons in the back (because thats what he does with everyone) during his reign, and he hasn’t, which sort of sucks because if he had maybe they’d have seen the error in their ways voting for him. 
Trump didn’t win the nomination because of evangelicals (who voted for him in lower number than any other group in the primary) but I was dismayed to see how many evangelicals threw in with him and full throatedly backed and supported him throughout his term. 
Bad shit for me on a personal level. This entire term has been a textbook example of a Pyrrhic victory and it’s going to really be something that causes pain to those that supported him much longer and more consequentially than anyone he was working to “other”. 

[TwiceHorn 31,573]

54 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I get it, and it leads me to think of the "good German" scenario during WWII. Taken to the extreme in that case, my mom would've voted for Hitler but still be friends with Jews and gays on a personal basis all while planning to vote for him again if given the choice.

It's fucked up, man, and I just can't reconcile this shit other than she can somehow compartmentalize the theoretical nature of voting for the Face Eating Leopard Party while still being concerned about that leopard's prey.

I'm not saying judge your mom. 

It's just a bit of a paradox how otherwise very fine people that you would be happy to know can throw in with the Face Eating Leopard Party.  My FIL is one of them, but he's not motivated by religious affiliation.  He fled the Soviets in Hungary, and like a lot of people that had a close brush with Soviet communism, will never vote Democrat for the rest of his life.  He's not dumb, per se, but is very susceptible to Trump's soundbites and the whole Fox News schtick.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

47 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

I apologize for taking your reasonable positions out of context and distorting them, and also for taking paragraphs you wrote and swapping one word representing a religious group for another and dishonestly making it look like typical nazi rhetoric against the Jews.  That was some high level trolling slight of hand.  Since we are setting the record straight, I am neither an evangelical nor a Trump supporter.  I think he is a clown.  

You are a nothing. A troll.

[Sawbonz 27,605]

55 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Have a nice evening, sir. 

38 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Same to you. 

[Cacti 191]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

 Ergo, you are a piece of shit...Got it dumbass?

 

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Good for you, shitheel.  You can fuck right off as well. 

I’m sure that there are more than a few evangelicals who have viewed this thread. And I’m equally sure that they take exception to Sydney’s and others’ broad generalizations, but yet don’t want to participate in a discussion where inevitably they will be insulted. It’s almost like it’s a CR policy: when logic fails, resort to name-calling, down-voting, or both.

[Mole 4,333]

35 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I actually thought he’d stab the SoCons in the back (because thats what he does with everyone) during his reign, and he hasn’t, which sort of sucks because if he had maybe they’d have seen the error in their ways voting for him. 

I saw some real cracks with the Kurd situation. I suspect that most evangelicals have some sort of missional connection to that region or at least admire people who are doing mission work there, since it's a place of such great need. I heard phrases like "worst betrayal I've ever seen" used to describe it from some of my friends. Group identity and all of the associated social issues are tough to overcome, so who knows if it will mean much in the long run though, but there are cracks if you understand the mental framework.

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

Just now, Mole said:

I saw some real cracks with the Kurd situation. I suspect that most evangelicals have some sort of missional connection to that region or at least admire people who are doing mission work there, since it's a place of such great need. I heard phrases like "worst betrayal I've ever seen" used to describe it from some of my friends. Group identity and all of the associated social issues are tough to overcome, so who knows if it will mean much in the long run though, but there are cracks if you understand the mental framework.

I don’t even know what you are taking about with the “Kurd” situation. Forgive my ignorance. I don’t watch the news nor engage a whole hell of a lot with the world outside of my family bubble, work responsibilities, and killing time on here when I’m bored and have free time (the family is all asleep in the rv so I’m sitting outside enjoying the night and messing around on here. 

[SydneyCarton 48,209]

4 minutes ago, Cacti said:

 

I’m sure that there are more than a few evangelicals who have viewed this thread. And I’m equally sure that they take exception to Sydney’s and others’ broad generalizations, but yet don’t want to participate in a discussion where inevitably they will be insulted. It’s almost like it’s a CR policy: when logic fails, resort to name-calling, down-voting, or both.

See a post of mine much earlier in this thread; I’d argue that folks who can’t or won’t stick up for themselves (or their faith) are cowards. Or people who know their beliefs don’t stand up to scrutiny. “Shy Trumpkins” is also a thing. They don’t want to be insulted? I guess it’s easy to have your feelings hurt when you can’t explain how your basic beliefs sort of spit in the face of Christianity. 

Dont most on this board complain about all the conservatives who bolted for the Daily Texan because they can’t defend their beliefs and lack the courage of their convictions? But evangelicals get a pass? 

[SydneyCarton 48,209]

I’m also reminded when all of the shit hit the fan at Baylor. All of the Baylor 247 employees got so tired of the rest of the 247 network reading their board and judging the comments blaming the women, being rape apologists, etc, and they couldn’t handle the scrutiny. You know, people calling them out for being themselves. So they all left and started sic em 365 so they could be pieces of shit in private and in the support of their own community. I’m sure they’d be silently offended by my comments as well. 

[Beau Vine 54,467]

1 hour ago, Cacti said:

 

I’m sure that there are more than a few evangelicals who have viewed this thread. And I’m equally sure that they take exception to Sydney’s and others’ broad generalizations, but yet don’t want to participate in a discussion where inevitably they will be insulted. It’s almost like it’s a CR policy: when logic fails, resort to name-calling, down-voting, or both.

No, the logic is that Jesus Christ's literal #1 piece of advice on how to live your life was "Love your neighbor as yourself," yet that is something that is completely ignored by evangelical churches.  Hate the gays, hate the Muslims, hate the immigrants is somehow what they got out of the New Testament.

[Biff Tannen 45,750]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don’t even know what you are taking about with the “Kurd” situation. Forgive my ignorance. I don’t watch the news nor engage a whole hell of a lot with the world outside of my family bubble, work responsibilities, and killing time on here when I’m bored and have free time (the family is all asleep in the rv so I’m sitting outside enjoying the night and messing around on here. 

Long story short, Dotard pulled troops out of Syria without warning anyone or bothering to have a plan and left our Kurdish allies to get butt fucked by Al-Assad. Some of that could be wrong, but that’s how I remember it. 

[troph 24,914]

I’m not here to call anyone names but I will say the difference between the criticism of White evangelicals / Christians and shifting the same criticism to minority groups like Jews, Gays, Muslims, Blacks (and the list could continue) is that Jews, Gays, Muslims and Blacks just want the right to peacefully coexist at an equal level. A demand for a level set to zero. When gays can marry (like White evangelicals can) it’s seen as an attack on White evangelicals. When Blacks demand racial justice (like White evangelicals have) it’s seen as requiring an “all lives matter” counter point. When a Muslim wins office, she’s accused of wanting Sharia or Muslim laws as our own (like White evangelicals want). And when all of these groups are criticized for wanting influence (like the White evangelicals have controlled for years) it’s seen as an attack on America.

There nothing problematic with wanting equality and equal access yet minority groups are railed on for wanting it by White evangelical Christians.

So be one, that’s your right but don’t come claiming criticism that’s harsh, exacting, and true is unfair because if the words were lodged at minority groups it would be hate. It would be hate because it’s hate and exactly what the evangelical herd does - project their deficiencies on to others and then claim “see, we are the victims.” You can’t be the persecuted when others gain equality and if you stand in the way of equality you’re going to catch a lot of flack and rightfully so. It’s the cost of being on the wrong side of history every step of the way.

Edited July 13, 2020 by troph

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

24 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

No, the logic is that Jesus Christ's literal #1 piece of advice on how to live your life was "Love your neighbor as yourself," yet that is something that is completely ignored by evangelical churches.  Hate the gays, hate the Muslims, hate the immigrants is somehow what they got out of the New Testament.

That’s number 2 man. Number 1 is love the lord your god with all your heart and souls and mind and body. 
There is a sovereignty toward God that gets ignored by many. That comes from number 1 command. 
There is a grace and mercy that gets ignored by many others as well- that’s the second commandment. 
Taken together we get it mostly wrong most of the time. Myself especially I’m sure. 

[workswithseed 2,119]

15 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s number 2 man. Number 1 is love the lord your god with all your heart and souls and mind and body. 
There is a sovereignty toward God that gets ignored by many. That comes from number 1 command. 
There is a grace and mercy that gets ignored by many others as well- that’s the second commandment. 
Taken together we get it mostly wrong most of the time. Myself especially I’m sure. 

I've always said that I'm a Christian, not a good one per say, but on none the less.

[Beau Vine 54,467]

17 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s number 2 man. Number 1 is love the lord your god with all your heart and souls and mind and body. 
There is a sovereignty toward God that gets ignored by many. That comes from number 1 command. 
There is a grace and mercy that gets ignored by many others as well- that’s the second commandment. 
Taken together we get it mostly wrong most of the time. Myself especially I’m sure. 

I thought about calling it 1b.

[Catdaddyhorn 3,448]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yep. That Christianity today you quoted is absolutely spot on. Trump is destroying the GOP with his toxic brand and he’s going to do the same to the church for throwing in with him. 
I actually thought he’d stab the SoCons in the back (because thats what he does with everyone) during his reign, and he hasn’t, which sort of sucks because if he had maybe they’d have seen the error in their ways voting for him. 
Trump didn’t win the nomination because of evangelicals (who voted for him in lower number than any other group in the primary) but I was dismayed to see how many evangelicals threw in with him and full throatedly backed and supported him throughout his term. 
Bad shit for me on a personal level. This entire term has been a textbook example of a Pyrrhic victory and it’s going to really be something that causes pain to those that supported him much longer and more consequentially than anyone he was working to “other”. 

Tell that to the kids sitting in cages and the parents who have yet to reunite with them. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Catdaddyhorn

[MidTexHorn 822]

Grew up a preachers kid. Dad was a non-denominational evangelical pastor. Married another preachers kid - her dad was a Baptist pastor. We have both rejected our faith and are disgusted by what our fathers have become (Or maybe what they were). My main regret is that I didn’t leave the faith decades earlier. The disgusting combo of the Republican religion with evangelicalism has been the last straw for me. I spent a significant portion of my life in evangelical churches - the bad stuff y’all are saying about them is 100% true. Took me a long time to get here mentally, but I am convinced that Christ (if he exists) would call them Pharisees and kick them to the curb. 

[NWBuck 8,588]

I've posted this before, but I really don't care. Great song by an acquaintance of mine:

 

[troph 24,914]

Grew up a preachers kid. Dad was a non-denominational evangelical pastor. Married another preachers kid - her dad was a Baptist pastor. We have both rejected our faith and are disgusted by what our fathers have become (Or maybe what they were). My main regret is that I didn’t leave the faith decades earlier. The disgusting combo of the Republican religion with evangelicalism has been the last straw for me. I spent a significant portion of my life in evangelical churches - the bad stuff y’all are saying about them is 100% true. Took me a long time to get here mentally, but I am convinced that Christ (if he exists) would call them Pharisees and kick them to the curb. 

100% this.

[troph 24,914]

I've posted this before, but I really don't care. Great song by an acquaintance of mine:
 

“You said love the lost, so I’m loving you now.”

Wow.

I was alway fairly sensitive to conviction from my inner voice / Holy Spirit.

I need to do much better. I need to make sure my indignation for the hypocrisy in deeds I see does not turn to hate for my neighbors.

I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone here - I’m sure I have. Please I hope you find it in your heart to forgive me. I really just want to see all of us thrive. Yes all, but that means you too, not just me.

[TwiceHorn 31,573]

13 minutes ago, troph said:

“You said love the lost, so I’m loving you now.”

Wow.

I was alway fairly sensitive to conviction from my inner voice / Holy Spirit.

I need to do much better. I need to make sure my indignation for the hypocrisy in deeds I see does not turn to hate for my neighbors.

I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone here - I’m sure I have. Please I hope you find it in your heart to forgive me. I really just want to see all of us thrive. Yes all, but that means you too, not just me.

I rarely find anything you write offensive.  You are a solid spokesperson for your issues.

[troph 24,914]

I border on hate sometimes for those who fight against me. I may hold my tongue, but the thoughts and feelings are there. We have to all do better. I can’t call out power for being hateful while I myself harbor such feelings toward them no matter how unjustified they are and how justified I think I am. Either you live it or you don’t. And I’ve explained my faith views and if I don’t live it I must turn the mirror to myself.

[Asithappens 974]

Despite the moniker "evangelical", they are far, far away from the teachings of Jesus are much more aligned with the wrath of the old testament. 

[Gatorubet 30,324]

That’s number 2 man. Number 1 is love the lord your god with all your heart and souls and mind and body. 
There is a sovereignty toward God that gets ignored by many. That comes from number 1 command. 
There is a grace and mercy that gets ignored by many others as well- that’s the second commandment. 
Taken together we get it mostly wrong most of the time. Myself especially I’m sure. 

Any God who puts loving Him above loving others is not worthy of your devotion.

[Nivek 16,992]

16 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yep. That Christianity today you quoted is absolutely spot on. Trump is destroying the GOP .......

You are pretty optimistic.  I think that party is dead to anyone with a functioning brain.  

[Brisketexan 105,448]

56 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Any God who puts loving Him above loving others is not worthy of your devotion.

I'll suggest (and a great many theologians agree with this) that the commandments are not hierarchical; rather, they are complimentary, and are meant to be read and followed TOGETHER.  After all, the lead in on the "love your neighbors" is "and a second is like it."

Love God.  How do we demonstrate our love for God?  We love His children.  All of them.  As is made clear elsewhere in the gospels, that means even our enemies.

That evangelicals manage to go not just astray from the gospels, but literally in opposition to them, is the most appalling thing.  "What would you do if a buncha illegals just showed up on your doorstep and demanded all of your food and water and clothing?"  I mean, the scriptural answer is so fucking easy, and so unambiguous -- give it to them.  Give all of it to them.  "But they're breaking the law!"  As a Christian, why should I care?  I am called -- actually, COMMANDED -- to follow a higher law (see the two great commandments).  Would it be hard for me to part with every scrap of food in my home if someone showed up and asked?  I'm sure it would.  But I also know that I've rarely felt more fulfilled in my life, and rarely felt close to God, than when I give freely of myself, and of my abundance (with which I have been blessed GREATLY beyond what I deserve -- there's that "grace" thing).

15-20 years ago, there was a trend of the WWJD bracelets -- "what would Jesus do?"  In some way, I wish that question would come back into vogue.  Because in almost every case, it's the exact opposite of what the evangelical "Christian" movement in the US is doing.

My kids are children of a father who went to Catholic schools his whole life until his first day at UT, and of a mother who is an ordained minister.  We have theological discussions/arguments around the dinner table, regularly.  Their disdain for "the church" -- as that creature exists in this country -- is near total.  They understand good and decent theology and Christian ethics.....which makes their disgust with American "Christianity" even sharper.  There's a future for Christianity in this country, or at least, there MIGHT be.  To the extent there is, it looks nothing like Liberty University and Jeffress and their ilk.  And to the extent that those outfits continue, they will only further diminish the faith.  And maybe that's okay.  If we're really Christians, we're resurrection people.  Sometimes things must die, in order to be reborn.

[troph 24,914]

Every group that seeks to demonize some other group always has reasons they claim as justification for doing so.  It was claimed about the Jews that they did not want to peacefully coexist at an equal level.  If we are going to hold as an ideal that it is wrong to stereotype and attempt to dehumanize massive groups of people (e.g. call them evil soulless fucks like child rapists deserving bullets) and instead judge people as individuals, then we need to attempt to follow that even when that group has some ideology that works against our political goals.  If it will just be applied arbitrarily then we will repeat the problems of the 20th and preceding centuries.  

I may feel convicted and agree not to hate evangelicals but I still vehemently disagree with your positions. Evangelicals who continue to oppose measures of equality in a secular society are wrong, immoral, and a danger to our society. My soft heart does not require I reconcile my stance with theirs. My liberty and freedom to live as you get to live is not a political goal, it’s an existential matter core to my dignity as a human. I suspect but could be wrong that you have never been subjected to the threat of the most powerful government in the history of the world telling you you have no right to exist. I have.    White Evangelicals are unquestionably a threat to me, my people and every minority group in the United States. And as someone who is steeped in Biblical knowledge and once evangelical I can say without a doubt that those who politicize their faith are an anathema to G-d.

 

You don’t get to hold power as a group and then say “don’t judge us as a group, only as individuals.” The voting power and representation in government of and by white evangelicals is immense. It warrants scrutiny of the whole not just the individual.

 

I also find it interesting that the ideal you are focused on is stereotyping. That’s not what this is about for me. My ideal is equality under the law for ALL Americans and human rights for ALL humans who have two feet on our land. Hate is a sin. I want to make sure I don’t hate you and people like you. I don’t think I do, but I’ve gotten close a lot of times. I also find it interesting that what you responded with was a lecture, not the spirit of reconciliation your Bible demands. You continue to cement the truth about White Evangelical Christianity, there is no room at the inn.

[troph 24,914]

I’m not demonizing anyone. I’m speaking truth - and while it may be damning - my human rights are not opposed to your human rights and for you to take that position is about as immoral as can be - it’s not out of hate. So I now have nothing else to add.

[softlynow 1,840]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m not demonizing anyone. I’m speaking truth - and while it may be damning - it’s not out of hate. So I now have nothing else to add.

Hate the sin, not the sinner, the sin being practicing Evangelical Christianity.

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

4 hours ago, troph said:

“You said love the lost, so I’m loving you now.”

Wow.

I was alway fairly sensitive to conviction from my inner voice / Holy Spirit.

I need to do much better. I need to make sure my indignation for the hypocrisy in deeds I see does not turn to hate for my neighbors.

I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone here - I’m sure I have. Please I hope you find it in your heart to forgive me. I really just want to see all of us thrive. Yes all, but that means you too, not just me.

I don’t really care what anyone has to say about evangelicals. Sure there’s a lot of hypocrisy in any group of human beings, ever. If you want to be mad at God bc the church isn’t human (and clearly that’s not what you are saying but I hear that as an argument against God- his people are hypocrites at times and fail to live up to how they are called to behave) I find that to be a silly argument bc all human beings suck in some way or another and everyone has a little (or a lot) of hypocrisy or times where their behavior doesn’t match their ideals or values. It’s baked into the human condition. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

Any God who puts loving Him above loving others is not worthy of your devotion.

That’s not logical man. We are to worship the creator at all times in all ways. Now, love of god that looks like dying to yourself and following his prescription for your life necessarily involves living your neighbor as yourself, obviously, but rejecting or failure to hold your creator in reverence is highly sinful. It’s also abundantly clear in both the Old Testament and New Testament that we are called to do this. The first part of the 10 commandments deals with our relationship to creator and the second part our relationship with the created. Jesus then says the same thing in his teachings exactly as I laid it out. 
All are free to choose their own path, but it’s unarguable that this is the path a Christian is called to live. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

2 hours ago, Nivek said:

You are pretty optimistic.  I think that party is dead to anyone with a functioning brain.  

I mean, maybe?  That’s certainly possible. I think 2020 will show Trumpism is dead. That doesn’t mean by definition that it has to have already killed the GOP, but perhaps. 
he can’t kill the church, but he can weaken it and has. 

[Sbbruin 21,898]

On 7/11/2020 at 4:50 PM, slorch said:

zero chance I'll vote for Biden or Trump either one.( People's heads spin off...LOlz)

"You must pick one or the other"

Maybe.  Just maybe, I don't want to repeat 2016...  Yes I will vote, but I will not tap the screen for either one of those candidates.

 

That's what I did in 2016.  I just couldn't put in a vote for either, so I abstained, and voted on everything else on that ballot.

However, as a registered R, I am going to put a BIG FAT CHECKMARK next to Joe Biden's name this go-around.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Sbbruin

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

1 hour ago, softlynow said:

Hate the sin, not the sinner, the sin being practicing Evangelical Christianity.

And that’s fair. 

[crash_davis 23,115]

Trump didn't establish the US fake Jesus agenda. He's adopting to it. Decades ago these fake Jesus people warped Christianity into a gun rights, screwing others, fuck the poor, capitalism and hording money above all else, hate minorities platform.

What these asshats teach and learn about Christianity is so far from the Grace that is espoused in the bible. Jesus was much about embracing the poor and decrying the wealthy. Not today's Jesus. Fuck no, today's Jesus is holding a beer can in one hand, an assault rifle in the other, standing in front of a bank with a sign that says wealthy white people only, and screaming "Amerikkka, Fuck yea".

I fucking laugh at anyone professing to be Christian and loves Trump. That's all that I need to know about that person's integrity, intelligence, honesty, and reading comprehension skills.

Edited July 13, 2020 by crash_davis

[troph 24,914]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don’t really care what anyone has to say about evangelicals. Sure there’s a lot of hypocrisy in any group of human beings, ever. If you want to be mad at God bc the church isn’t human (and clearly that’s not what you are saying but I hear that as an argument against God- his people are hypocrites at times and fail to live up to how they are called to behave) I find that to be a silly argument bc all human beings suck in some way or another and everyone has a little (or a lot) of hypocrisy or times where their behavior doesn’t match their ideals or values. It’s baked into the human condition. 

Not mad at anyone. I consider the movement of evangelical Christianity an existential threat to my existence and many others who are not like them.  

Why can't Christians freaking get that!?

 

Y’all are talking about me hating God, stereotypes, political “goals” ... what the everliving hell is a political goal when it comes to equality for me, gay folks, my black trans sisters, black men being assassinated, kids in cages, American children going hungry, huh Christians?

 

I have no political goals on these topics. None. Let that shit sink in.

Edited July 13, 2020 by troph

[Nivek 16,992]

You are pretty optimistic.  I think that party is dead to anyone with a functioning brain.  

Damnit, That came out wrong. I think the republicans with political beliefs and standards have all left. Those that remain do not recognize that the Republican brand only has one value, wealth redistribution and concentration.

[Nivek 16,992]

Trump didn't establish the US fake Jesus agenda. He's adopting to it. Decades ago these fake Jesus people warped Christianity into a gun rights, screwing others, fuck the poor, capitalism and hording money above all else, hate minorities platform.
What these asshats teach and learn about Christianity is so far from the Grace that is espoused in the bible. Jesus was much about embracing the poor and decrying the wealthy. Not today's Jesus. Fuck no, today's Jesus is holding a beer can in one hand, an assault rifle in the other, standing in front of a bank with a sign that says wealthy white people only, and screaming "Amerikkka, Fuck yea".
I fucking laugh at anyone professing to be Christian and loves Trump. That's all that I need to know about that person's integrity, intelligence, honesty, and reading comprehension skills.

That is old pussy Jesus. New Holy Ghost of the New New Testament is a badass that drives an F250.

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

23 minutes ago, troph said:

Not mad at anyone. I consider the movement of evangelical Christianity an existential threat to my existence and many others who are not like them.  

Why can Christians freaking get that!?

 

Y’all are talking about me hating God, stereotypes, political “goals” ... what the everliving hell is a political goal when it comes to equality for me, gay folks, my black trans sisters, black men being assassinated, kids in cages, American children going hungry, huh Christians?

 

I have no political goals on these topics. None. Let that shit sink in.

Reread what I wrote that you quoted especially the parenthetical where I said “clearly that’s not what you are saying here but it’s what a lot of people say about God blah blah blah”. Your post was a jumping off point for me bc you talked about hypocrisy and people filing to live up to the church teachings and I used that as a jumping off point to talk about other people who say the same thing but take the argument to a silly extreme (god can’t be real bc people that love him aren’t perfect rabble rabble rabble). I wasn’t talking to or about you just quoted that because it was a jumping off point to something I tangentially wanted to talk about. 
I thought I’d made that clear but perhaps I didn’t. My apologies. 

[workswithseed 2,119]

52 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

That's what I did in 2016.  I just couldn't put in a vote for either, so I abstained, and voted on everything else on that ballot.

However, as a registered R, I am going to put a BIG FAT CHECKMARK next to Joe Biden's name this go-around.

I can't do either. I see them both as terrible people.

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

36 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Damnit, That came out wrong. I think the republicans with political beliefs and standards have all left. Those that remain do not recognize that the Republican brand only has one value, wealth redistribution and concentration.

And that’s fair to some extent. There’s a lot of people voting GOP that don’t think about it that way (or think that the Dems brand is worse) so I don’t think it’s necessarily dead for all time, but Trumpism, and the GOP party that’s enabled it, is fixing to get massively rebuked I think. 

[Sbbruin 21,898]

3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I can't do either. I see them both as terrible people.

I felt that way in 2016.  But Trump is worse than Satan.  Unless he is in fact Satan himself, then I just undersold Satan.

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

26 minutes ago, Nivek said:

That is old pussy Jesus. New Holy Ghost of the New New Testament is a badass that drives an F250.

I had to buy a class A motor home because I drive a wimpy 150 and couldn’t pull the 5th Wheeler I wanted to around America. I wish I was a badass that drove a 250. 

[Sbbruin 21,898]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

And that’s fair to some extent. There’s a lot of people voting GOP that don’t think about it that way (or think that the Dems brand is worse) so I don’t think it’s necessarily dead for all time, but Trumpism, and the GOP party that’s enabled it, is fixing to get massively rebuked I think. 

Agreed.  I think when you take refuge on the extremes of the spectrum, rational people prevail. 

[RomaVicta 30,032]

15 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Hate the gays, hate the Muslims, hate the immigrants is somehow what they got out of the New Testament.

No no no! It's hate the sin; love the sinner. They're covered by the Holy Doublespeak.

Our hate is love. 

[F250 28,826]

Hey, can we stop with demonizing F250 owners?

[Wulaw Horn 19,153]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

No no no! It's hate the sin; love the sinner. They're covered by the Holy Doublespeak.

Our hate is love. 

You can do both at the same time. Most people don’t choose to do so or aren’t capable of doing so. God does it’s for us. All he had to do you square the situation is sacrifice his son for us. We don’t like sacrifice of any sort, collectively, as a people. Doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the standard or message, just that we fail to live up to it. 
Feel free to substitute gluttonous, egotistical, Asshole, or whatever else you want to when talking about me. Try to love me and hate that bad. None of it is easy. 

[F250 28,826]

Beth Moore is a influential voice in the Evangelical community. She has been somewhat of a lightning rod over the past few years within the Southern Baptist Convention due to her gender (Women ought not teach men) and her criticism of Trump.

 

 

[RomaVicta 30,032]

9 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You can do both at the same time. Most people don’t choose to do so or aren’t capable of doing so. God does it’s for us. All he had to do you square the situation is sacrifice his son for us. We don’t like sacrifice of any sort, collectively, as a people. Doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the standard or message, just that we fail to live up to it. 
Feel free to substitute gluttonous, egotistical, Asshole, or whatever else you want to when talking about me. Try to love me and hate that bad. None of it is easy. 

I don't want to get too far into this, Wulaw. I'm not a believer but I know plenty of fine people who are. 

In the case of hating the sin but loving the sinner, I find that many who use that phrase are just adding some fine print to the simple command to love your neighbor.  I don't think Jesus was big on footnotes, asterisks, or fine print. The general message is pretty clear. Hating the sin seems like finding a way to introduce hate to the equation.

Edited July 13, 2020 by RomaVicta