Evangelicals and Trump

[JimmyJames 12,271]

15 minutes ago, slorch said:

No i will not.

 

That's the thing.   For many of you motherfuckers, that's not even enough.   It doesn't convey hate and disdain, so it leaves you unsatisfied.

 

Not my fucking problem.   If you can't believe a man at his word, then go fuck yourself.

Fine. Voting for Biden? Curious to hear your response to that one. 

Look I know plenty of guys like you. At one point I was somewhat similar. No more.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Fine. Voting for Biden? Curious to hear your response to that one. 

Look I know plenty of guys like you. At one point I was somewhat similar. No more.

zero chance I'll vote for Biden or Trump either one.( People's heads spin off...LOlz)

"You must pick one or the other"

Maybe.  Just maybe, I don't want to repeat 2016...  Yes I will vote, but I will not tap the screen for either one of those candidates.

and as for you knowing people like me; then how the fuck are you throwing down accusations of lying?  I share a lot of shit on here, to the point of being very, very vulnerable with regard to some peckerhead being able to dox me if they truly connected the dots.   At a certain point, IDGAF.  I am who I am( insert Popeye laugh.)   If that's not good enough, I don't know what to tell you.  There's no way to verify, so I guess you're free to accuse all the fuck you want; but what does that prove... that you're a cynic?  More power to ya, brother.

Edited July 11, 2020 by slorch

[JimmyJames 12,271]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

zero chance I'll vote for Biden or Trump either one.( People's heads spin off...LOlz)

"You must pick one or the other"

Maybe.  Just maybe, I don't want to repeat 2016...  Yes I will vote, but I will not tap the screen for either one of those candidates.

and as for you knowing people like me; then how the fuck are you throwing down accusations of lying?  I share a lot of shit on here, to the point of being very, very vulnerable with regard to some peckerhead being able to dox me if they truly connected the dots.   At a certain point, IDGAF.  I am who I am( insert Popeye laugh.)   If that's not good enough, I don't know what to tell you.  There's no way to verify, so I guess you're free to accuse all the fuck you want; but what does that prove... that you're a cynic?  More power to ya, brother.

At some point you have to make a choice. 

In my opinion, which is not the gospel, you refusing to make a choice is cowardice. Again just my opinion.

I have lots of friends whom are republicans who say the same shit you are saying. They are still my friends and always will be, but they know I hate trump with the passion of a thousand suns so they don’t typically bring it up unless we are a few drinks in, if even then.

And no I’m not a cynic, the opposite in fact. 

[Satchel 6,908]

On 7/10/2020 at 1:34 PM, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Serious question. Why wasn’t voting for the alternative to Trump the more Christian thing to do?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Serious question. Why wasn’t voting for the alternative to Trump the more Christian thing to do?

In all honesty, I didn't see voting for either one of them an act of faith.  I cannot recall voting for ANY presidential candidate in my lifetime because I felt like they have the same walk with the Lord that I do.

This thread is not really about those concepts anywhoo.  It's about finger pointing and trying to pigeonhole a certain segment of the electorate as to blame for where we are; while additionally making the effort to impugn people's vote as some sort of sin and sanctify Hillary Clinton.

It's ludicrous, but fun, I guess.

Edited July 12, 2020 by slorch

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

31 minutes ago, slorch said:

In all honesty, I didn't see voting for either one of them an act of faith.  I cannot recall voting for ANY presidential candidate in my lifetime because I felt like they have the same walk with the Lord that I do.

This thread is not really about those concepts anywhoo.  It's about finger pointing and trying to pigeonhole a certain segment of the electorate as to blame for where we are; while additionally making the effort to impugn people's vote as some sort of sin and sanctify Hillary Clinton.

It's ludicrous, but fun, I guess.

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling evangelical Christians soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

[Gil Bang 25,898]

The self-proclaimed Christian voters that spew the bullshit about how important faith is, went 100% for Reagan over Carter.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Gil Bang

[troph 24,562]

Serious question. Why wasn’t voting for the alternative to Trump the more Christian thing to do?

abortion is their answer.

[Mdhorn 5,911]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

As a lifetime republican till 2016, what the fuck made you think they’d behave that way? They spent 8 years screeching and still screech specifically about OBAMACARE, and you thought they’d reverse field and improve on it? The party that has removed science from textbooks and has pumped federal funds to shit ass graft driven charter schools? The party that loves sending men and women to prison for decades for marijuana charges would reverse field and appoint moderate judges?

 

I gotta ask, Whos your dealer?

 

 

 I’m cynical in nature so hope for the best for sanity’s sake.

[Mole 4,320]

Regarding Trump vs. Biden, if you choose not to decide, you still have made of choice:

 

 

This thread could be a useful discussion, but it largely has fallen back into predicable railing against Trump and his supporters (a reasonable approach, but not really productive anymore).

As for the why, I don't think it's very productive to simply write off large portions of the population is inherently evil, even if they are very wrong in this case for pretty terrible reasons. I don't have a coherent reason for the why of Evangelical support for Trump, but I have a grab bag of possible reasons.

1. We're all pretty dumb, Trumper and non-Trumper alike. Even the smartest and most thoughtful among us have lots of bias in their thinking. The world is very confusing and complicated, particularly over the past 6 months or so. We come to conclusions and reason our way backwards. We all necessarily take many mental shortcuts and sometimes those shortcuts lead us to terrible conclusions. It takes a lot to overcome this, but we typically revert back to our identity rather than reasoning through problems.

2. This isn't a battle of ideas or even values, but one of identity. A certain portion of it is probably racial identity (white supremacy), but I suspect that left leaning folks overestimate how much this plays a role. Even the president of the SBC declared that "Black Live Matter because Jesus died for them." There are broader cultural identity issues at play here. Consider how this board frames the Evangelical issue: the people on the other side of the cultural divide would see most of this board in a similar negative light. The other side sees you the same way you see them because there is a cultural identity war going on. While there is a conflict of values and ideas, the ultimate conflict is in identity.

3. Trump thrives in this cultural war. He creates wedges where none are needed since they serve him politically. In one respect, he's right about the masks - they are symbols of political and cultural identity. Of course, Trump created or at least amplified this wedge, but it is no doubt there. This is why people are losing their minds over the masks. It's the cultural war right in/on their face.

4. Abortion and gay marriage. These are the elephants in the room that fit pretty neatly along party lines. This wasn't always the case. They are the ultimate symbols and catalysts for cultural identity. Regardless of the cynicism of the pro-life movement, particularly in light of the COVID-19 response, if you see abortion as equivalent to murder (or even much less, but still something profoundly wrong), it can be hard to get past the stark division between parties. There's a place to discuss whether or not the pro-life movement actually has an interest in abortion or just the wedge issue of abortion (I believe that it is largely a cynical movement among those in power), but there are still an astounding number of abortions that grieve the pro-life believer to the point where a deal with the devil might start to seem reasonable. We aways seem to just need one more Supreme Court Justice.

5. As for gay marriage, it's a similar cultural identifier. When the Supreme Court made their ruling, I remember the profound sense of mourning by many in my church the following Sunday. They weren't mourning the loss of their ability to control the lives of others; they were mourning that they believed that our country was turning further from God. The New Testament "clobber passages" about homosexuality discuss it in terms of a signifier of an increasingly sinful culture, so if you start with the Evangelical premise, the logic mostly holds up. The subsequent gay cake wars have only hardened the divide.

6. Many Evangelicals see progressive culture as openly antagonistic towards them. I'd say this is largely accurate and it's broader and longer lasting than the Trump phenomenon. Trump is the flashpoint because he's so objectively terrible, but he's not the only issue. Trump has taken up the mantle of the defender of Evangelical identity. Since he's taken on this role but also such an openly terrible person, we see the Bible twisting to declare him the modern day version of various terrible people from the Bible.

7. As a Christian who would probably be labeled Evangelical, the Trump movement has been despairing. Watching my Christian brothers and sisters turn to what amounts to an entirely different and worldly faith has been difficult. Idolatry is brutal and destructive. For those who are anti-religion, you can take some consolation in the fact that Trump has damaged the American church far more than he's damaged the country. Even as our country burns and dies, his movement has killed most of the American church. Much of it is preaching a false gospel and the rest is damaged by association.

In short, there's been a conflict of cultures going on in this country for some time. Trump has played this conflict masterfully and positioned himself as the defender of the faith (Fidei defensor) and the standard bearer for one side of this conflict. The fact that his personal values don't seem to align in any way with the faith or side he defends is almost irrelevant. He is going on the offensive in the culture war and winning victories. When it feels like the broader culture is so against you, this can feel cathartic. Yay team!

There's a certain irony in a faith that places so much focus on the end times and staying on God's side deciding to cast aside their values to win a worldly battle led by someone such as Trump. Abortion, gay marriage, and other cultural changes were seen as a sign of the times and they've indirectly led us to a leader that has brought both the country and the church to the brink. The pro-life movement led us to more death while doing little to curb abortion. Some might see what's happening as a judgement of God against the worldly church; others might see it as karma or the simulation breaking down. Whatever it is, it's some great dramatic writing.

[Bama Chick 28,596]

Or they’re just narrow minded assholes who hate change.

[Mdhorn 5,911]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling evangelical Christians soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

They’ve already answered that question. Trump supported Roy Moore, a pedo banned from malls.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

18 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Or they’re just narrow minded assholes who hate change.

On my Facebook page a post came up from a former client of mine that if a covid vaccine came about he would refuse to take it and 20 of his friends immediately agreed.

Trump America.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

I’m going to start with asking why 

[Satchel 6,908]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

In all honesty, I didn't see voting for either one of them an act of faith.  I cannot recall voting for ANY presidential candidate in my lifetime because I felt like they have the same walk with the Lord that I do.

This thread is not really about those concepts anywhoo.  It's about finger pointing and trying to pigeonhole a certain segment of the electorate as to blame for where we are; while additionally making the effort to impugn people's vote as some sort of sin and sanctify Hillary Clinton.

It's ludicrous, but fun, I guess.

I’m not trying to be argumentative in an attempt to evaluate choices, but the bone marrow hatred for Hillary has always puzzled me, especially since it is always broadly framed and rarely specific. The critiques from the left mirror those coming from right in that they are visceral and amorphous. I’ve heard that Hillary is cold and calculating. Most ambitious, successful politicians are. I’ve also heard Marian Wright Edelman describe her in a private setting as a person who does not practice her faith casually. 

I am made all the more curious when one considers her precipitous drop in popularity from 2013 to 2016. It appears that once Republicans targeted her as the Democrat to beat, the all out assault to neutralize her began in earnest and it continued throughout the campaign. Given that she was by any objective measure the more qualified candidate, I have never quite understood why so many judged her in the balance and found her wanting.

 

[bolverk 29,399]

What I'm about to write may not seem too eloquent because I'm typing it out with my thumbs on a phone, but it comes from the heart.

People are complicated -- even evangelicals.

My 79 yo adoptive mother (not biological) grew up on a 200 acre farm just east of Brownwood without running water or electricity and was raised as a devout member of the Church of Christ. Her chores included taking care of the chickens, pigs, and cows before and after school, and her black pet dog was named "nig pup."

She's told me that her mother was furious when she married my adoptive father, because he was Baptist and thought that she was going to go to hell for that "sin." But she did it anyway.

During the 1980s when I was in middle and high school, my mom was very active in the local humane society, spending 2-3 hours every day after school (she was a 7th grade math teacher) to take care of the animals. The woman who was in charge of the place was an agnostic lesbian, but I think my mom still considered her her best friend.

I recall during that same period my mom fretting over the fact that a couple of her students didn't speak English, and she was very concerned about how she was restricted in her ability to teach them math without more support from the administration for tutoring or translators. It really upset her as she wanted to reach these kids.

Both my sister and I are divorced, which is kind of a no-no in the evangelical world. On top of it all, my sister has converted to Catholicism (gigantic red flag for Southern Baptists) and I'm an atheist, which is almost as bad. In both cases, my mom shows nothing but love, concern, and care for both of us even though she sincerely believes we'll both end up in an eternal fiery hell. Shit, she's even upset that her brother's lesbian daughter (her niece, my cousin) who lives in famously liberal and lesbian friendly Asheville, NC, is going through a divorce with her spouse.

The point of all this thumb tapping is to point out that despite all the kickass qualities of my mom, she's still firmly a Trump supporter because of her evangelical beliefs, which is absolutely and utterly confounding given how she connects with people in real life. It's like there's some sort of "official" position that she's loyal to that ties her vote to her Bible while she has an "unofficial" position that links her to an every day life and people she cares about.

Edited July 13, 2020 by bolverk

[troph 24,562]

I have a lot to say and will later as a former one but I will say this with heavy eyes ... one on one, evangelicals can be decent to lesbians gay and trans folk. It’s the mob mentality and when they are subject to observation by other evangelicals. Humans are messy and not easy to put in boxes but movements are much easier to characterize and understand. As a movement, evangelicals are extremely dangerous to folks not like them, as individuals not so much.

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

6 hours ago, bolverk said:

What I'm about to write may not seem too eloquent because I'm typing it out with my thumbs on a phone, but it comes from the heart.

People are complicated -- even evangelicals.

My 79 yo adoptive mother (not biological) grew up on a 200 acre farm just east of Brownwood without running water or electricity and was raised as a devout member of the Church of Christ. Her chores included taking care of the chickens, pigs, and cows before and after school, and her black pet dog was named "nig pup."

She's told me that her mother was furious when she married my adoptive father, because he was Baptist and thought that she was going to go to hell for that "sin." But she did it anyway.

During the 1980s when I was in middle and high school, my mom was very active in the local humane society, spending 2-3 hours every day after school (she was a 7th grade math teacher) to take care of the animals. The woman who was in charge of the place was an agnostic lesbian, but I think my mom still considered her her best friend.

I recall during that same period my mom fretting over the fact that a couple of her students didn't speak English, and she was very concerned about how she was restricted in her ability to teach them math without more support from the administration for tutoring or translators. It really upset her as she wanted to reach these kids.

Both my sister and I are divorced, which is kind of a no-no in the evangelical world. On top of it all, my sister has converted to Catholicism (gigantic red flag for Southern Baptists) and I'm an atheist, which is almost as bad. In both cases, my mom shows nothing but love, concern, and care for both of us even though she sincerely believes we'll both end up in an eternal fiery hell. Shit, she's even upset that her brother's lesbian daughter (her niece, my cousin) who lives in famously liberal and lesbian friendly Asheville, NC, is going through a divorce with her spouse.

The point of all this thumb tapping is to point out that despite all the kickass qualities of my mom, she's still firmly a Trump supporter because of her evangelical beliefs, which is absolutely and utterly confounding given how she connects with people in real life. It's like there's some sort of "official" position that she's loyal to that ties her vote to her Bible while she has an "unofficial" position that links her to an every day life and people.

 

6 hours ago, troph said:

I have a lot to say and will later as a former one but I will say this with heavy eyes ... one on one, evangelicals can be decent to lesbians gay and trans folk. It’s the mob mentality and when they are subject to observation by other evangelicals. Humans are messy and not easy to put in boxes but movements are much easier to characterize and understand. As a movement, evangelicals are extremely dangerous to folks not like them, as individuals not so much.

Sure people are complicated. But there’s a more cynical way to portray what both of you have described and illustrated:

Theyre just cowards who only have the courage to practice their convictions when in a mob. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Theyre just cowards who only have the courage to practice their convictions when in a mob. 

and like that, the thread changes to an Antifa discussion.

Other learnings:

1) These damned Christians don't live like we think they should.  It's weird as hell.

2) Hillary was just a saintly nun involved in politics.  Sweeter than your mother and grandmothers, really.  How hateful you motherfucking Christians are for not voting for her. You're just so blind to her goodness.

 

LOlz.

Edited July 12, 2020 by slorch

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

3 minutes ago, slorch said:

and like that, the thread changes to an Antifa discussion.

Ah, an interesting tactic considering you can’t really stick your neck out to defend evangelicals. Not on the basis of their behavior. But it fails considering I’m perfectly happy classifying antifa dipshits throwing bottles in a crowd as pieces of shit as well. But if you want to paint evangelicals with the same brush, go right ahead. lol f course, as about 20% of America they’re much more dangerous and commit their atrocities in the name of Jesus. 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,307]

My evangelical in-laws are full on Trumpkins. On their entryway table they've built a small altar for Trump with matching MAGA hats placed, bills crossed, at the base of a cross & Bible. MIL stays out of politics for the most part, minus the occasional fwd>fwd>fwd> email my wife gets. But the FIL has told me multiple times how there is proof that Obama, Clinton, Gore, Carter--any president or high ranking official with a D by their name--is an agent of the devil if not Satan himself (Obama). Conversely, Trump is the living embodiment of King Cyrus: a POS that God is using for a bigger purpose.

Fucking hypocritical morons who use their "teachings" to justify their deplorable stances.

[hpslugga 4,044]

2 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

My evangelical in-laws are full on Trumpkins. On their entryway table they've built a small altar for Trump with matching MAGA hats placed, bills crossed, at the base of a cross & Bible. MIL stays out of politics for the most part, minus the occasional fwd>fwd>fwd> email my wife gets. But the FIL has told me multiple times how there is proof that Obama, Clinton, Gore, Carter--any president or high ranking official with a D by their name--is an agent of the devil if not Satan himself (Obama). Conversely, Trump is the living embodiment of King Cyrus: a POS that God is using for a bigger purpose.

Fucking hypocritical morons who use their "teachings" to justify their deplorable stances.

I wouldn’t engage. That’s a person that’s too far gone.

I mean seriously, they’re suggesting that not only is there proof that an invisible being occupying a fictitious place really exists but that this invisible being in the fictitious place is plotting with mortal men, for whatever reason, and that they all happen to be Democratic Presidents of the United States? That’s just straight up insanity now that I think of it

Edited July 12, 2020 by hpslugga

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,307]

Oh I've long stopped engaging him on politics. I think the last conversation we briefly had was during Bush v Gore election (when I was still dating their daughter & he was trying to size me up).

He's attempted to goad me over the years but I just ignore him. His rants get more comical then baseless the drunker he gets. He's slowly dying of cancer so the last thing I'm going to do is start shit on the rare times I see him.

And to continue the Satan theme, my wife tells me when they were kids her mother would scream at the TV "he has the mark of the beast right there for all to see" whenever Gorbachev was shown on the news.

[Beau Vine 54,001]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

and like that, the thread changes to an Antifa discussion.

Other learnings:

1) These damned Christians don't live like we think they should.  It's weird as hell.

2) Hillary was just a saintly nun involved in politics.  Sweeter than your mother and grandmothers, really.  How hateful you motherfucking Christians are for not voting for her. You're just so blind to her goodness.

 

LOlz.

Do you actually own a strawman factory?

[troph 24,562]

2 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Do you actually own a strawman factory?

best on ignore.  top ten ways to improve your quality of life, I don't care what else is going on IRL.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

6 hours ago, slorch said:

and like that, the thread changes to an Antifa discussion.

Other learnings:

1) These damned Christians don't live like we think they should.  It's weird as hell.

2) Hillary was just a saintly nun involved in politics.  Sweeter than your mother and grandmothers, really.  How hateful you motherfucking Christians are for not voting for her. You're just so blind to her goodness.

 

LOlz.

Thread derail attempt...
 

Failed. 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

I mean seriously slorch. That was pathetic. Even for you. Be better. 

[Texaspython 231]

14 hours ago, Satchel said:

I’m not trying to be argumentative in an attempt to evaluate choices, but the bone marrow hatred for Hillary has always puzzled me, especially since it is always broadly framed and rarely specific. The critiques from the left mirror those coming from right in that they are visceral and amorphous. I’ve heard that Hillary is cold and calculating. Most ambitious, successful politicians are. I’ve also heard Marian Wright Edelman describe her in a private setting as a person who does not practice her faith casually. 

I am made all the more curious when one considers her precipitous drop in popularity from 2013 to 2016. It appears that once Republicans targeted her as the Democrat to beat, the all out assault to neutralize her began in earnest and it continued throughout the campaign. Given that she was by any objective measure the more qualified candidate, I have never quite understood why so many judged her in the balance and found her wanting.

 

It’s mostly chauvinistic bs. 

[WhatTheBuck 28,711]

On July 11, 2020 at 8:42 AM, Sawbonz said:

I guess you missed my follow up post #46

 

also from that article 

Democratic elites, defined broadly, shaped the primary before voters ever got a chance to weigh in, and the way they tried to shape it was by uniting behind Clinton early in the hopes of avoiding a bruising, raucous race.
 

from NPR 

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/561976645

 

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

JAKE TAPPER: Very quickly, Senator, do you agree with the notion that it was rigged?

ELIZABETH WARREN: Yes.

 

 

Brazile says shortly after she took over, she found a formal agreement between the DNC and the Clinton campaign.

The long and short of it was that the Clinton campaign would raise a lot of money for both the campaign and the DNC and help pay off the commission's debt. But in exchange, the Clinton campaign would have a say in DNC staffing decisions, communications and party strategy. And what's key is that this document was signed in 2015 before Clinton became the party's nominee, in fact before any primary votes were ever cast

You think she got it all on merit. Cool. A lot of people including the chair of the DNC during that campaign season didn’t 

Are you suggesting that, if Hillary didn't have some kind of an unfair advantage in 2016, we might have a President Warren, or President Klobuchar, or President Hickenlooper right now? Lulz. The results of the 2020 primary should disabuse you of any such fantasies. 

Warren's response to the question about whether the 2016 primary was rigged, and her later recanting of that statement, is covered in the first article you linked so let's just stick to that one. Normally I would never read that article because its headline is phrased as a question. That article is a good example of why I have that policy. It's a sign of a clickbaity article that's little on substance. The answer to the question, "Was the Democratic primary rigged?" is obviously no because if they had compelling evidence that it was rigged then the headline would read, "The Democratic primary was rigged!" It's irresponsible journalism because it can lead to some people concluding that it was rigged just because the question was asked even though the case wasn't made 

They don't have that evidence and the first conclusion they arrive at is, "those operations were mostly irrelevant to the primary and couldn’t have been used to rig the process even if anyone had wanted to use them that way; the primary schedule, debate schedule, and rules were set well in advance of these agreements." It also concludes, "None of this amounts to a rigging, or even anything particularly unusual."

Apart from that it's mostly just lamenting that Hillary was the favorite. I'm sorry, but I don't feel much sympathy for any politician who complains that they can't raise money because the donors are all donating to their opponent. Boo hoo. That's not an unfair advantage, that's democracy. Nobody owes your campaign coffers a dime.

Being the favorite wasn't an unfair advantage. It's iust the nature of being the favorite. Hillary had the experience, the resume, the name recognition, the organization, the Rolodex, and the support of more people. That article said, "All the way back in 2013, every female Democratic senator — including Warren — signed a letter urging Clinton to run for president." Are you going to tell me she was coerced from running in 2016? If anyone told her she shouldn't run, that was just sound political advice. 

And again, Hillary didn't run in 2020. If she had such an unfair advantage in 2016, why didn't any of those other candidates who did run in 2016, or who Ezra Klein imagines might have run, make any noise in 2020? At the end of the day, the voters picked the nominee and the favorite won. There was nothing untoward about the process. 

Do yourself a favor and never click a headline that's phrased as a question. It's a waste of time. 

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

13 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Let's do a game with this amazing bit of unhinged ranting and swap out "evangelical Christians" with any other group with can think of and see how well it goes over.  Just copy and paste any one of these below and see how well it is received and if you get banned from basically any forum on the internet for posting it.

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling Muslims soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling Jews soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling liberals soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling homosexuals soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

 

I mean it's a very reasonable take when you post it, but somehow it gets transformed into sounding like genocide supportive hate speech when applied to any other group of people.   

I mean I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t apply it to any other group of people? Listen, I’m sure you’re somewhat familiar with the concept of Hyperbole and general exaggeration on a message board. Let’s just assume that a smidge of that might be happening in that post, just for arguments sake. 
 

That being said, here is the problem with your shitty comparison and efforts to play good guy. I focused my statement on an existing subset of a large community who’s general and willful ignorance and and aggressive efforts to impart their world views on others is dangerous and has directly hurt the lives of others and continues to do so...as where every example you gave is the highest level of generalization. What if instead of Muslims you qualified it as a dangerous subset, say, Fundamentalist Muslims, or Muslim Terrorists? Suddenly again it’s less offensive, and a more fair comparison. You’re accusing me of promoting hate speech for a large swath of people, like say Germans, when all I’m really saying is a Fuck Nazis. But nice try, pal. Feel free to take your false equivocation and get bent. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Bama Chick 28,596]

“What if calling out nazis as nazis makes me a nazi?”

Lord, just take your fedora and soul patch to 4chan and let the adults talk.

[formermav43 4,599]

This really boils down to the fact that "Evangelical" is a fairly useless term in contemporary discourse (I feel like I've said this over and over and threads like these). It has a theological meaning, a historical meaning, a modern political meaning, and the groups are not coextensive. 

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

28 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

What do you think that is a good thing?  Why would it be better or worse to apply it to Jews or Muslims?  Evangelical is not synonymous with extreme fundamentalists.  They are a religious group that make up around 25% of the country. 

 

Ok, it's not hate speech because it's hyperbole.  That makes perfect sense and is not merely something someone could say as a weak defense after being questioned.  "All my ranting about the Jews and how they are soulless evil fucks and like pederasts deserving a bullet was just a bunch of hyperbole."  Pretty solid.    

 

See if you can put your thoughts into words and explain the difference between these two statements:

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling Muslims soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling evangelical Christians soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

So you literally ignored the meat of my post, which refutes your points or at the least defends my own position, and cherry picked a few Phrases again, and made the exact sample point as your initial post. That’s...something.  

 

Engaging you any further on this is a waste of fucking time. Kindly fuck off and put me on ignore if me expressing dissatisfaction for a cultish religion and it’s adherents which actively work to infringe on the rights and harm others as part of their core beliefs offends you. It doesn’t matter how big their numbers are, to the contrary that’s what makes them dangerous. 

Edited July 12, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

16 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

This is true.  But it is really a crazy thing to say about any large religious or ethnic group.  I think some folks look at previous times and other cultures and wonder how people could stereotype and categorize entire groups of people as inferior and evil.  How it happens is that they surround themselves with others who do not like some group and they encourage each other when hateful statements are made.  They get their views reinforced and encouraged by those around them and so they develop a blind spot to it.  

Out of curiosity, how big or small enough of a group is it acceptable for you to vilify? How many rapists, caught and still free are here on this planet do you think? How many kiddie diddlers? How many racists? When is it ok to generalize, per you? Or is it about the perceived offense and how idiotic or evil it is to you personally? Is it ok if I shit on all White Supremacists? Does that meet your approval? Or are there, you know, “good people on both sides?”  
 

Your pedantry is tiresome. 

[bolverk 29,399]

Allow me to interrupt here a moment and build on the longcat post about my mom last night. It shouldn't require a whole lot of processing power to realize that how people conduct themselves and treat others on an individual basis is probably the best test of character. 

Personally, that's how I've chosen to judge the Evangelicals in my life, of which there are many having grown up in small town Texas. Like all of us, they have a set of rules and guidelines for how to see the world, behave, and treat one another. Where it breaks down is when they apply those specifics to the voting booth.

Generally, I agree with the foundational principle of the Golden Rule: treat one another as you would treat yourself. Leave it at that, and we can all get along. But, even though many might live their secular lifes with that philosophy (like me mom), they'll step into the voting booth and apply their religious views as a stamp to be placed on everyone else's foreheads.

The real struggle that I have is how they can reconcile those religious views and somehow see Trump being reflective of them. There is absolutely nothing in his personal behavior nor his policies that is supported by Christian doctrine aside from abortion, which is debatable because none of the red letters in the Bible address that particular issue.

Again, it's confounding.

[Gengs1 2,583]

Deep down Most of the evangelicals Want to be Trump, they desire to be like him, act, flaunt an screw others over. There is no way they can believe in the Bible and not give a shit about fellow human beings like they do. They turn their heads towards

-lying

-kids in cages

-cheating

-gluttony 

-greed

all because some gay person wants to get married and someone wants to abort a kid they didn’t want.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

So. Many . Questions.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

1 hour ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Let's do a game with this amazing bit of unhinged ranting and swap out "evangelical Christians" with any other group with can think of and see how well it goes over.  Just copy and paste any one of these below and see how well it is received and if you get banned from basically any forum on the internet for posting it.

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling Muslims soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling Jews soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling liberals soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

Actually, I think it’s more basic than that. It’s about identifying a large swath of Americans that are just soup-to-nuts pieces of fucking shit. Like showing up and declaring a pederast someone deserving of a bullet. Sure, it’s not always the pederasts fault, they could have been damaged or diddled or broken when they were too young to do anything about it. But most folks never stop to give a fuck about that, and honestly, I’m ok with that. Just like I’m ok labeling homosexuals soulless evil fucks who are a huge, mindless problem with America and advancing humanity as a whole. Fuck them. 

 

I mean it's a very reasonable take when you post it, but somehow it gets transformed into sounding like genocide supportive hate speech when applied to any other group of people.   

You and the evangelicals support trump. A fascist racist narcissist bankrupt morally corrupt idiot. Those groups don’t. Ergo, you are a piece of shit.

Got it dumbass?

[JimmyJames 12,271]

38 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

So you literally ignored the meat of my post, which refutes your points or at the least defends my own position, and cherry picked a few Phrases again, and made the exact sample point as your initial post. That’s...something.  

 

Engaging you any further on this is a waste of fucking time. Kindly fuck off and put me on ignore if me expressing dissatisfaction for a cultish religion and it’s adherents which actively work to infringe on the rights and harm others as part of their core beliefs offends you. It doesn’t matter how big their numbers are, to the contrary that’s what makes them dangerous. 

The dude is just here to troll. He’s not even all that good at it, which sucks. 

[F250 28,682]

On 7/10/2020 at 7:15 PM, JBJ said:

There really is a moral divide at the philosophical level between the parties that goes deeper than the current candidate.  I.E. virtuism and Kantianism vs relativism and subjectivism.

This is a major reason the religious right is criticized, they have abandoned any notion of a Christian categorical imperative in exchange for an "end justifies the means" consequential strategy.

It is also something that is causing issues within their community and it doesn't seem like this will be resolved anytime soon. I was surprised how Christianity Today received so much pushback for reminding their fellow Evangelical Christians that Christian morality is absolute and not to be sacrificed for the sake of political gain.

To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump’s immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come? Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?

 https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

  Christians who support trump are simply not Christians. They are just acting like they are for their own perceived and possible personal benefit.

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

28 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

 

So I guess not a waste?

You are merely doubling down on your crazy stereotyping and comparing evangelicals to rapists and "kiddie diddlers."  Again, I could give your arguments back to you and say "what's wrong with generalizing Muslims and characterizing them as soulless evil fucks?  Is it merely because there are many of them?  Is it ok if I generalize rapists and kiddie diddlers?"  You do not seem to realize that you are reflexively equating millions of ordinary Americans (like bolverks mom, for example) with child rapists.  Why is it ok to do this with evangelicals and not with Jews or Muslims?  

oh, I see, so it is about whether or not the misdeed is horrific enough in your eyes. Rapists and kiddie diddlers are ok. But zealots who actively advance an agenda of intolerance towards other large groups in the millions like say, specifically the LGBQ community, get a pass because there’s so many of them and they are polite and volunteer at charities in their free time? 
 

Is their a subset of Jews or Muslims that I’m not aware of that are somewhere on a spectrum of less shitty than suicide bombers but still pushing forth an agenda of intolerance and hatred and restricting human rights on millions of people? Because if so point me there and I’ll roundly condemn that behavior as well. 
 

The problem with your entire argument is that the door swings both ways. The only difference is where you draw the line for acceptable disdain versus myself. To paraphrase the one about the woman who would accept a million dollars to have sex with a man, we’ve established you’re a whore and now we’re just arguing over the price. 
 

Personally, I’m comfortable categorizing an umbrella religious arm that actively works to restrict the freedoms of millions of people as shitty. And oh by the way, it’s also religious culture that has actively ignored and covered up rape for decades all over the south. I was raised catholic by a catholic school teacher. And you know what, the Catholic Church covered up thousands upon thousands of pederasts, and that shit is evil. Are there good Catholics? Sure. Are their good evangelicals? I’m sure there are plenty. The difference between you and myself is I don’t get my bloody panties in a twist when someone says “fuck the Catholic Church.” Like an adult I simply understand their sentiment and what they’re trying to express and move on. You apparently want to put on your teacher’s cap and tell them just how wrong they are in detail, for the way they express their opinion.  I bet you’re popular at parties. 
 

Westboro Baptist church can fuck right off.  So can Liberty University and the Fallwells. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

13 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

The dude is just here to troll. He’s not even all that good at it, which sucks. 

Thanks. I’ve seen other posters mock and dismiss him before, but I’d never had enough of an encounter with him before to make note he was a troll. Guess he does suck at his job. 

[TwiceHorn 31,272]

41 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Allow me to interrupt here a moment and build on the longcat post about my mom last night. It shouldn't require a whole lot of processing power to realize that how people conduct themselves and treat others on an individual basis is probably the best test of character. 

Personally, that's how I've chosen to judge the Evangelicals in my life, of which there are many having grown up in small town Texas. Like all of us, they have a set of rules and guidelines for how to see the world, behave, and treat one another. Where it breaks down is when they apply those specifics to the voting booth.

Generally, I agree with the foundational principle of the Golden Rule: treat one another as you would treat yourself. Leave it at that, and we can all get along. But, even though many might live their secular lifes with that philosophy (like me mom), they'll step into the voting booth and apply their religious views as a stamp to be placed on everyone else's foreheads.

The real struggle that I have is how they can reconcile those religious views and somehow see Trump being reflective of them. There is absolutely nothing in his personal behavior nor his policies that is supported by Christian doctrine aside from abortion, which is debatable because none of the red letters in the Bible address that particular issue.

Again, it's confounding.

This is a good point.  We all know, I think, that herds can be assholes.  Herds of all kinds, races, and creeds.

Like you, I tend to judge people by their individual behavior.

But, at some point, people have to be judged by the herds they join, too.  I'm not sure where that point lies, particularly if the individual doesn't wholeheartedly join the herd in its misdeeds.  Or better still, if they are working against the herd.

Edited July 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Gil Bang 25,898]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is a good point.  We all know, I think, that herds can be assholes.  Herds of all kinds, races, and creeds.

Like you, I tend to judge people by their individual behavior.

But, at some point, people have to be judged by the herds they join, too.  I'm not sure where that point lies, particularly if the individual doesn't wholeheartedly join the herd in its misdeeds.  Or better still, if they are working against the herd.

Wait, are we talking about @ChiTownDoc  ?  Because fuck that sooner motherfucker, just for being a sooner motherfucker, amirite?

Edited July 13, 2020 by Gil Bang

[bolverk 29,399]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is a good point.  We all know, I think, that herds can be assholes.  Herds of all kinds, races, and creeds.

Like you, I tend to judge people by their individual behavior.

But, at some point, people have to be judged by the herds they join, too.  I'm not sure where that point lies, particularly if the individual doesn't wholeheartedly join the herd in its misdeeds.  Or better still, if they are working against the herd.

I get it, and it leads me to think of the "good German" scenario during WWII. Taken to the extreme in that case, my mom would've voted for Hitler but still be friends with Jews and gays on a personal basis all while planning to vote for him again if given the choice.

It's fucked up, man, and I just can't reconcile this shit other than she can somehow compartmentalize the theoretical nature of voting for the Face Eating Leopard Party while still being concerned about that leopard's prey.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

3 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

A group of people who on average do not vote the way you like (though many are not political and do not vote, and some do vote how you would like them to) are whores and child rapists to a degree, we are just splitting hairs here on how much whoring and child raping they do.  I think that is pretty fair.  

 

This makes no sense.  I've posted on average less than once a day during my time on Texas football boards and yet I often get lots of strong reactions (including yours), often from posters I do not know and who I do not even engage directly.  Yet somehow I am both a troll and unsuccessful at it.  Of course I am obviously not a troll if we go by its original meaning.  Although it is a word that means many different things now and has become vague to the point of being just about useless, much like the term evangelical.  

Negged for posting a lot of words that mean nothing. 

[Gengs1 2,583]

Can the evangelicals list any policies the last 3 years that the republicans did that would make Jesus proud? Like helping Americans like Jesus would want to    
 

list the top 3?

 

i mean they had control of all 3 branches for 2 years. 
 

They bitch about Obama care for last 6 years but that actually helps poor people 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Gengs1

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

10 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

A group of people who on average do not vote the way you like (though many are not political and do not vote, and some do vote how you would like them to) are whores and child rapists to a degree, we are just splitting hairs here on how much whoring and child raping they do.  I think that is pretty fair.  

 

Oh, I see, now you’re just completely making things up and putting words in my mouth. Words that weren’t even close to being uttered or even implied. I guess I can play that game too: Axiom of Choice is pro rapist and child molestation. This is a fun game. 
 

my entire litany of posts on this subject is to show my disdain for a religious sect who’s core tenets include denying equal rights to a segment of human beings they despise, and warping the basic fundamental teachings of Christianity and the foundation of the United States to do so. But hey, you’re cool with that concept. Good for you, shitheel.  You can fuck right off as well. 
 

 

[SydneyCarton 47,876]

3 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

I apologize for taking your reasonable positions out of context and distorting them, and also for taking paragraphs you wrote and swapping one word representing a religious group for another and dishonestly making it look like typical nazi rhetoric against the Jews.  That was some high level trolling slight of hand.  Since we are setting the record straight, I am neither an evangelical nor a Trump supporter.  I think he is a saint.  

Oh, substituting one word doesn't matter does it? See above.   

Have a nice evening, sir.