Evangelicals and Trump

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I don't want to get too far into this, Wulaw. I'm not a believer but I know plenty of fine people who are. 

In the case of hating the sin but loving the sinner, I find that many who use that phrase are just adding some fine print to the simple command to love your neighbor.  I don't think Jesus was big on footnotes, asterisks, or fine print. The general message is pretty clear. Hating the sin seems like finding a way to introduce hate to the equation.

That’s fine. I will leave it at a really high level and then move on. We are called to be like God. God is perfect and Holy and that means set apart form all sin. Hates it. 
God is someone who loves us totally and completely and delights in us. 
Thus, it’s true that God hates sin and wickedness while living those that commit the wickedness. If you want to say it’s an introduction of hate that’s fine, but it’s action based versus personality based. 
I didn’t understand a lot of things in the faith that now hit home with me that I have children. Nothing they could do would ever get me to not love them.  But I straight up hate some of the stuff they choose to do (especially when it’s being terrible to each other or their mommy) 

This concept doesn’t seem to make sense bc we in the evangelical world give lip service to living the sinner but we sure can work up a good solid hate for the sin, and some of us a good solid hate for the sinner. 
I’m not trying to proselytize here. Just explain a fundamental concept. I will leave it alone now.  

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

17 minutes ago, F250 said:

Beth Moore is a influential voice in the Evangelical community. She has been somewhat of a lightning rod over the past few years within the Southern Baptist Convention due to her gender (Women ought not teach men) and her criticism of Trump.

 

 

I love Beth Moore. This doesn’t surprise me that it’s her take on what’s going on. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

My favorite pastor that I listen to on podcast is Tim Keller, of redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC. He built one of the biggest churches in that area not by dumbing it down for the masses but by really digging in and reading Gods word. 
he says something that I think is pretty smart...

if you were a liberal as a non believer and then meet God and become a Christin you are doing it wrong if you don’t become more conservative. God is a God that calls us to morally upstanding behavior and is in no way a relativist, and what he calls for can look regressive to lots of people. 

If you are  a conservative when you meet God and it doesn’t make you more liberal you are doing it wrong. God is a god of grace and mercy and love and it’s impossible for us to go too far in pouring these out for our fellow man, specially the so called “least among you”.  Whatever you were the point is that through Christ’s death and resurrection and your decision to walk with him he has created a new creature, and your heart of stone should instead be replaced with a heart of flesh. 
The problem with any church that wades in to politics is that they double and triple down on their conception of God and her further away from the other end. 
There is nothing about the evangelical movement that couldn’t be fixed by the leaders of the religious right spending all their times in soup kitchens, nursing homes, prisons, homeless and women’s shelters and the like. And I go to a church where we spend a lot of time doing that- and I love that about my church. 
we don’t have enough people doing enough of that though. 
Similarly, God is not your non judgmental friend that says whatever feels good do it and there are no rules man. Nothing but love. 

[troph 24562]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Reread what I wrote that you quoted especially the parenthetical where I said “clearly that’s not what you are saying here but it’s what a lot of people say about God blah blah blah”. Your post was a jumping off point for me bc you talked about hypocrisy and people filing to live up to the church teachings and I used that as a jumping off point to talk about other people who say the same thing but take the argument to a silly extreme (god can’t be real bc people that love him aren’t perfect rabble rabble rabble). I wasn’t talking to or about you just quoted that because it was a jumping off point to something I tangentially wanted to talk about. 
I thought I’d made that clear but perhaps I didn’t. My apologies. 

your post was a non-sequitur.  I won't claim it personal, but there are a few posts in response to what I'm trying to say that are not on point.

[troph 24562]

59 minutes ago, F250 said:

Hey, can we stop with demonizing F250 owners?

old F350's are better.  sorry you're shit out of luck and need to go sit in the discrimination corner.  no fifth wheels for you.  but hey, at least your F250 isn't a tundra.

[troph 24562]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You can do both at the same time. Most people don’t choose to do so or aren’t capable of doing so. God does it’s for us. All he had to do you square the situation is sacrifice his son for us. We don’t like sacrifice of any sort, collectively, as a people. Doesn’t mean there’s a problem with the standard or message, just that we fail to live up to it. 
Feel free to substitute gluttonous, egotistical, Asshole, or whatever else you want to when talking about me. Try to love me and hate that bad. None of it is easy. 

you actually can't.  love is a complex combination of beliefs, words, and deeds directed toward another.  if you really think I'm a sinner for being trans and taking estrogen and whatever else I did or for being in a lesbian relationship, then no, you don't love me or my girlfriend, it's quite impossible for you to love me or her.  These facts are core to who we are.  I am trans.  She is gay.  I am gay.  we love each other.  This love the sinner hate the sin - when it comes to fundamental identities like gay and trans is impossible.  To hate my quote-unquote sin is to hate my identity - to hate ME.  If you keep your mouth shut and are polite then that is probably tolerance, maybe on its best day acceptance but that's not love.  And no one in shoes similar to mine experiences it as love.  We experience it much, much differently than you intend.  It's rather condescending, controlling, and conditional.  Love is understanding, love is assisting, love is supporting and championing others.  Love is laying down your life (let's just say figuratively on this one) so that I can be free, so that I can be who I am.  What you may mean is I don't hate you but you would hardly love me.  Which is to fundamentally say, love is more than just a word, in fact, it's not a word at all, it's a verb.

Edited July 13, 2020 by troph

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

6 minutes ago, troph said:

your post was a non-sequitur.  I won't claim it personal, but there are a few posts in response to what I'm trying to say that are not on point.

 I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. I’m not sure if you are talking to me or not. Nothing I said in particular was meant to be responsive to you. 

[F250 28688]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

old F350's are better.  sorry you're shit out of luck and need to go sit in the discrimination corner.  no fifth wheels for you.  but hey, at least your F250 isn't a tundra.

I've come close to buying a Tundra before but I have an irrational brand loyalty to Ford trucks.

[troph 24562]

41 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

My favorite pastor that I listen to on podcast is Tim Keller, of redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC. He built one of the biggest churches in that area not by dumbing it down for the masses but by really digging in and reading Gods word. 
he says something that I think is pretty smart...

if you were a liberal as a non believer and then meet God and become a Christin you are doing it wrong if you don’t become more conservative. God is a God that calls us to morally upstanding behavior and is in no way a relativist, and what he calls for can look regressive to lots of people. 

If you are  a conservative when you meet God and it doesn’t make you more liberal you are doing it wrong. God is a god of grace and mercy and love and it’s impossible for us to go too far in pouring these out for our fellow man, specially the so called “least among you”.  Whatever you were the point is that through Christ’s death and resurrection and your decision to walk with him he has created a new creature, and your heart of stone should instead be replaced with a heart of flesh. 
The problem with any church that wades in to politics is that they double and triple down on their conception of God and her further away from the other end. 
There is nothing about the evangelical movement that couldn’t be fixed by the leaders of the religious right spending all their times in soup kitchens, nursing homes, prisons, homeless and women’s shelters and the like. And I go to a church where we spend a lot of time doing that- and I love that about my church. 
we don’t have enough people doing enough of that though. 
Similarly, God is not your non judgmental friend that says whatever feels good do it and there are no rules man. Nothing but love. 

disregard not sure my response was with full understanding of what you are saying, no comment now.

Edited July 13, 2020 by troph

[troph 24562]

11 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

 I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. I’m not sure if you are talking to me or not. Nothing I said in particular was meant to be responsive to you. 

that's what I'm saying I acknowledge it wasn't directed at me but it was like other posts that were unrelated to what I said that were directed as responses.  carry on.  

[formermav43 4599]

Jesus did not advocate using force to impose his teachings on anyone. Nor were they intended for the world rather than his disciples.

He doesn’t fit into any partisan political box.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

actually the progressive movement is the movement that more times than not has the moral high ground with respect to the teachings of Christ, at least in this Country.  This monopolization of morality by conservatives may be for another post but it's a LOT more complicated than if you love God you will be conservative.  Jesus was a communal, homeless radical challenging the status quo.  hardly conservative.

It’s like you only read half of what I wrote. This exact point was basically covered in the second half of the post. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

1 minute ago, formermav43 said:

Jesus did not advocate using force to impose his teachings on anyone. Nor were they intended for the world rather than his disciples.

He doesn’t fit into any partisan political box.

Exactly what Keller always says about the partisan political box. It’s why I love the guy. That and he’s sharp as hell, he’s an intellectual, and he seems like an awesome person. 

[Asithappens 974]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

I can't do either. I see them both as terrible people.

Here, let's try to make this a bit easier for the conflicted:

vote for the most competent person to run the country. 

I don''t really give a shit if someone thinks they are terrible as a person. 

[Mole 4320]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

Here, let's try to make this a bit easier for the conflicted:

vote for the most competent person to run the country. 

I don''t really give a shit if someone thinks they are terrible as a person. 

I think we’ve firmly established that character actually matters when it comes to leadership. It might be the most important thing. That’s for another thread though.

[Brisketexan 104624]

36 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

My favorite pastor that I listen to on podcast is Tim Keller, of redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC. He built one of the biggest churches in that area not by dumbing it down for the masses but by really digging in and reading Gods word. 
he says something that I think is pretty smart...

if you were a liberal as a non believer and then meet God and become a Christin you are doing it wrong if you don’t become more conservative. God is a God that calls us to morally upstanding behavior and is in no way a relativist, and what he calls for can look regressive to lots of people. 

If you are  a conservative when you meet God and it doesn’t make you more liberal you are doing it wrong. God is a god of grace and mercy and love and it’s impossible for us to go too far in pouring these out for our fellow man, specially the so called “least among you”.  Whatever you were the point is that through Christ’s death and resurrection and your decision to walk with him he has created a new creature, and your heart of stone should instead be replaced with a heart of flesh. 
The problem with any church that wades in to politics is that they double and triple down on their conception of God and her further away from the other end. 
There is nothing about the evangelical movement that couldn’t be fixed by the leaders of the religious right spending all their times in soup kitchens, nursing homes, prisons, homeless and women’s shelters and the like. And I go to a church where we spend a lot of time doing that- and I love that about my church. 
we don’t have enough people doing enough of that though. 
Similarly, God is not your non judgmental friend that says whatever feels good do it and there are no rules man. Nothing but love. 

I can definitively say that as I became mature in my faith, and actually examined it and applied it to myself.....it pulled me to the left.  I mean, I just couldn't get past the simple clarity of the gospels.  I have a legalistic mind -- the conservative approach, both theologically and otherwise - very much appealed to me.  But in the end, that approach actually helped me.  I looked at it this way:

The great commandment is the Christian Constitution.  Love God.  Love everyone else.  The rest of what we discuss are the statutes and regulations enacted under -- and ALWAYS subject to -- those immutable Constitutional restrictions.  In fact, if you are a Christian and you are NOT informed by Torah, you're missing a shitload.  Because what I just recited is effectively the much-cited story of the Rabbi Hillel:

Quote

 In one story about them, a gentile comes to both and asks, with the obvious intention of provoking them, to be taught the whole Torah while standing on one leg. Shammai is indeed provoked and gives the man an angry whack with a measuring rod. Hillel replies, “That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary — [and now] go study.”

No matter what rule, code, etc. you are citing, it must be examined for it's "Christian Constitutionality" -- does it serve, and not contradict, the Constitutional requirements of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself?  If it fails that test, it is unconstitutional.  If it must be tortured in its reasoning to try to avoid contradiction, it is unconstitutional.

When the stranger shows up at my door in need of food, I feed him.  If I try to torture the situation with legalistic excuses ("but he crossed the river ILLEGALLY, so I can't reward that conduct!"), I do nothing but create excuses that void the overall rule.  After all, I can easily determine that every man who shows up on my doorstep is a sinner -- they have surely broken the laws of God and man at some point or another.  If I create an exception of "I'll feed anyone....but NOT sinners!," then the exception has swallowed the rule.

Seriously, when it comes to some sound theology (and some of it is rigid as hell -- see the orthodox observation of the sabbath, where they will not even turn on a light switch), the jewish faith has it going on.  It's profound, and beautiful, and sometimes, really freaking hard.

As an adult, I discovered a Christian faith that challenges me and frightens me, as opposed to comforting me.  And I've realized that is how it is supposed to be.  Christianity is a Way, and it is a radical and frightening way -- that's what faith is.  By the way, I'm not a Christian.  I try to be, but I'm mostly a miserable failure at it.  But I keep trying.  Some days, harder than others.  I'm really a pretty shitty person, but then, I contemplate the truth of Grace, am humbled like a motherfucker that I am loved in spite of my lack of merit -- by my God, by my wife, by my children -- and I try again, all over again.  And fail.  Again.  But tomorrow is another day.

[RomaVicta 29792]

58 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s fine. I will leave it at a really high level and then move on. We are called to be like God. God is perfect and Holy and that means set apart form all sin. Hates it. 
God is someone who loves us totally and completely and delights in us. 
Thus, it’s true that God hates sin and wickedness while living those that commit the wickedness. If you want to say it’s an introduction of hate that’s fine, but it’s action based versus personality based. 
I didn’t understand a lot of things in the faith that now hit home with me that I have children. Nothing they could do would ever get me to not love them.  But I straight up hate some of the stuff they choose to do (especially when it’s being terrible to each other or their mommy) 

This concept doesn’t seem to make sense bc we in the evangelical world give lip service to living the sinner but we sure can work up a good solid hate for the sin, and some of us a good solid hate for the sinner. 
I’m not trying to proselytize here. Just explain a fundamental concept. I will leave it alone now.  

Thanks for responding, Wulaw. I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but one more thought is roused by your post. "Called to be like God," is interesting. Of course God can do as He/She likes. That's not an option for humans. God can wipe out cities and destroy people, yet Jesus says man is not to do that. God judges, but the Bible says that man should not judge.

I wonder if this same division would apply to hate because of the simplicity of the commandment "love thy neighbor..." teamed with all the love Jesus advocated.

If you wish to answer, I'd like to read your answer. If you wish to let it lie, that's okay, too. I'm truly not trying to bait you into a long argument. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Here, let's try to make this a bit easier for the conflicted:

vote for the most competent person to run the country. 

I don''t really give a shit if someone thinks they are terrible as a person. 

I don’t think you are getting there toward convincing him with saying most competent person. Joe looks to all appearances like he’s going senile. I suppose you could argue competent team and get to Biden, as trumps “all the best people” have proven to be as bad or worse as he is while Biden’s haven’t proven that conclusively yet” but even non diminished Joe wasn’t exactly what I’d call a model of

competence. At least there’s nothing really important going on in our society right now that could use a solid and steady hand on the wheel. 
 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

3 minutes ago, Mole said:

I think we’ve firmly established that character actually matters when it comes to leadership. It might be the most important thing. That’s for another thread though.

That’s always been my #1 voting point and why I so often sit out elections or vote 3rd party. I’m a pass/fail kind for guy when it comes to character and personal integrity. 

[Brisketexan 104624]

7 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Here, let's try to make this a bit easier for the conflicted:

vote for the most competent person to run the country. 

I don''t really give a shit if someone thinks they are terrible as a person. 

 

4 minutes ago, Mole said:

I think we’ve firmly established that character actually matters when it comes to leadership. It might be the most important thing. That’s for another thread though.

This.  "Competent, but evil and cruel" is not a success.  I'm not a fan of the alternative of "goodhearted, but an incompetent fuckup" either.  When those are your choices, then you have a complicated balancing test, and predictions of what kind of challenges they will face, etc.  

But character definitely matters.  When it comes to a leader, it comes down to selflessness -- will he put the organization/country before his own self-interest?  I know and feel that acutely, as I am an attorney who has a fiduciary duty to my clients.  That literally means that I must put their concerns before my own.

Because of that, I have had to turn down very lucrative work that would have put me in conflict with my client.  I have had to give my client advice that leadership didn't want to hear (but it was the truth, and I was obligated to so advise the entity), KNOWING that those people in leadership would be so angry they would terminate our relationship, costing me money.  But that's what I have to do.

Here's the low damned bar I think we need to clear, ethically -- I think we deserve leaders who are as loyal to our country as an attorney has to be to his client.  It's not ambiguous, and it matters.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I can definitively say that as I became mature in my faith, and actually examined it and applied it to myself.....it pulled me to the left.  I mean, I just couldn't get past the simple clarity of the gospels.  I have a legalistic mind -- the conservative approach, both theologically and otherwise - very much appealed to me.  But in the end, that approach actually helped me.  I looked at it this way:

The great commandment is the Christian Constitution.  Love God.  Love everyone else.  The rest of what we discuss are the statutes and regulations enacted under -- and ALWAYS subject to -- those immutable Constitutional restrictions.  In fact, if you are a Christian and you are NOT informed by Torah, you're missing a shitload.  Because what I just recited is effectively the much-cited story of the Rabbi Hillel:

No matter what rule, code, etc. you are citing, it must be examined for it's "Christian Constitutionality" -- does it serve, and not contradict, the Constitutional requirements of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself?  If it fails that test, it is unconstitutional.  If it must be tortured in its reasoning to try to avoid contradiction, it is unconstitutional.

When the stranger shows up at my door in need of food, I feed him.  If I try to torture the situation with legalistic excuses ("but he crossed the river ILLEGALLY, so I can't reward that conduct!"), I do nothing but create excuses that void the overall rule.  After all, I can easily determine that every man who shows up on my doorstep is a sinner -- they have surely broken the laws of God and man at some point or another.  If I create an exception of "I'll feed anyone....but NOT sinners!," then the exception has swallowed the rule.

Seriously, when it comes to some sound theology (and some of it is rigid as hell -- see the orthodox observation of the sabbath, where they will not even turn on a light switch), the jewish faith has it going on.  It's profound, and beautiful, and sometimes, really freaking hard.

As an adult, I discovered a Christian faith that challenges me and frightens me, as opposed to comforting me.  And I've realized that is how it is supposed to be.  Christianity is a Way, and it is a radical and frightening way -- that's what faith is.  By the way, I'm not a Christian.  I try to be, but I'm mostly a miserable failure at it.  But I keep trying.  Some days, harder than others.  I'm really a pretty shitty person, but then, I contemplate the truth of Grace, am humbled like a motherfucker that I am loved in spite of my lack of merit -- by my God, by my wife, by my children -- and I try again, all over again.  And fail.  Again.  But tomorrow is another day.

I too have become much more liberal as I get older and it’s because of my faith. But we both started out conservative so that’s the way it should be for us as faith actually impacts our life.  
Jesus didn’t tell the woman at the well that she wasn’t sinning or that it was ok. He told her he loved her and to go and sin no more. There are absolutes in the faith and what we are called to be, and we are to strive to be set apart from sin, not to normalize it or accept it or argue that it isn’t right, but to pick ourselves up and try again. 
Thats his point, I think it’s beautiful, and it’s why I love him. Christ in our lives should change us in some way, and the arrow ought to be pointed the opposite direction of what we were before. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[troph 24562]

16 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s like you only read half of what I wrote. This exact point was basically covered in the second half of the post. 

I agree hence my deletion later.  I'm not sure I agree or disagree, I actually have no comment.

[Brisketexan 104624]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I don’t think you are getting there toward convincing him with saying most competent person. Joe looks to all appearances like he’s going senile. I suppose you could argue competent team and get to Biden, as trumps “all the best people” have proven to be as bad or worse as he is while Biden’s haven’t proven that conclusively yet” but even non diminished Joe wasn’t exactly what I’d call a model of

competence. At least there’s nothing really important going on in our society right now that could use a solid and steady hand on the wheel. 
 

I just spent the past week with someone who worked closely with Biden for a decade or so (and might again?)  He definitely confirmed that Joe isn't as sharp as he used to be (no surprise there), but he still is plenty aware and capable, and he also observed that most of the people that Joe has surrounded himself with are smart, on top of their game, and most importantly, Joe listens to them.  He agreed with the rest of us -- Joe isn't the perfect candidate.  But when it comes to basic decency, and the key ability to know how smart he's NOT, Joe brings that to the table.

And by the way, when it comes to a leader, that humility is a HUGE quality.  Asking for input from others, and taking it, is a key to success.  I've worked with hundreds of executives.  The dividing line between the successful ones and the failures was almost always based on that quality.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

I agree hence my deletion later.  I'm not sure I agree or disagree, I actually have no comment.

I responded before you deleted, obviously. 
think it over. Listen to him. He’s really an awesome man of God and as good as anyone I’ve ever heard with a large platform at getting it right. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

14 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Thanks for responding, Wulaw. I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but one more thought is roused by your post. "Called to be like God," is interesting. Of course God can do as He/She likes. That's not an option for humans. God can wipe out cities and destroy people, yet Jesus says man is not to do that. God judges, but the Bible says that man should not judge.

I wonder if this same division would apply to hate because of the simplicity of the commandment "love thy neighbor..." teamed with all the love Jesus advocated.

If you wish to answer, I'd like to read your answer. If you wish to let it lie, that's okay, too. I'm truly not trying to bait you into a long argument. 

I’m always interested in these kind of discussions. I will let this lie for the moment as I have a work call in about 5 minutes and then birthday stuff with my family celebrating me turning 42, but I will try to get back to it. 
My initial response is no, but I want to think about it. I’ve never heard anyone make this argument. 

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I just spent the past week with someone who worked closely with Biden for a decade or so (and might again?)  He definitely confirmed that Joe isn't as sharp as he used to be (no surprise there), but he still is plenty aware and capable, and he also observed that most of the people that Joe has surrounded himself with are smart, on top of their game, and most importantly, Joe listens to them.  He agreed with the rest of us -- Joe isn't the perfect candidate.  But when it comes to basic decency, and the key ability to know how smart he's NOT, Joe brings that to the table.

And by the way, when it comes to a leader, that humility is a HUGE quality.  Asking for input from others, and taking it, is a key to success.  I've worked with hundreds of executives.  The dividing line between the successful ones and the failures was almost always based on that quality.

Agree completely on that being a super important quality in leadership. There’s only one thing I’d place beside knowing what you don’t know and having humility related to that and it’s this:

sacrifice of self and servant leadership. I can’t imagine how it could get worse on either of those two metrics than why we have now. 
I shall not mourn, in any way, the electoral destruction coming Trumps way. 

[Brisketexan 104624]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Agree completely on that being a super important quality in leadership. There’s only one thing I’d place beside knowing what you don’t know and having humility related to that and it’s this:

sacrifice of self and servant leadership. I can’t imagine how it could get worse on either of those two metrics than why we have now. 
I shall not mourn, in any way, the electoral destruction coming Trumps way. 

Yeah, and I mentioned that in my discussion of fiduciary duty above.  Put the client first.  Listen to other people with humility, understanding that the ultimate burden on making an informed decision is yours.  And it's a heavy, heavy responsibility.  It SHOULD weigh on a leader.  It would weigh on me.  I would have the future of 328 million of my countrymen -- and many millions of other human beings around the world -- in my hands.  And I would take that fucking seriously.  It's not a game.  It's not about me, or my ego.  And if I have to make a decision for the greater good that causes millions of people to hate me, so be it.  That is my duty.

I want a leader who believes that.  We presently have the exact opposite.

[troph 24562]

the great takeaway of the "go and sin no more" parable isn't that last line, it's the Pharisees walking out when He said let the one among you without sin be the first to cast the stone.  They all left.  Of course, Evangelicals get irritated when gays say this.  We are bastardizing the Gospel for our convenience. 

Okay, let's continue then.  Where is the judgment from Jesus about her adultery?  He even refers to the Pharisees as accusers.  The reality is, Evangelicals have a heightened focus on what they think someone is doing that's sin and in fact the message to each of us in that parable is two fold:

MESSAGE TO YOU - Don't be an accuser.

MESSAGE TO YOU - Go and sin no more.

This passage is not directed at HIM, HER, THEM or any one else. Neither of these messages is directed to others - they can't be directed to others or else you are an accuser by directing them to others, in fact if you do that you are a Pharisee! This passage is at all times directed in all instances to YOU the reader (which of course can be me as a reader, so here I'm YOU as well).

This passage is however, so many, many times read to say this:

MESSAGE TO HER - Don't be trans.

MESSAGE TO HIM - Don't be gay.

MESSAGE TO THEM - Don't be queer.

MESSAGE TO THEM - Don't get divorced.

The list can continue and it does.  This parable is often times used for the love the sinner, hate the sin troupe.  That twist, that failure to see what He is really saying here drives to the very heart of the issue. That passage has nothing to do with other people. it has everything to do with you, full stop, period. no new paragraph.

Edited July 13, 2020 by troph

[troph 24562]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I just spent the past week with someone who worked closely with Biden for a decade or so (and might again?)  He definitely confirmed that Joe isn't as sharp as he used to be (no surprise there), but he still is plenty aware and capable, and he also observed that most of the people that Joe has surrounded himself with are smart, on top of their game, and most importantly, Joe listens to them.  He agreed with the rest of us -- Joe isn't the perfect candidate.  But when it comes to basic decency, and the key ability to know how smart he's NOT, Joe brings that to the table.

And by the way, when it comes to a leader, that humility is a HUGE quality.  Asking for input from others, and taking it, is a key to success.  I've worked with hundreds of executives.  The dividing line between the successful ones and the failures was almost always based on that quality.

comparing him to George W. Bush doesn't give me confidence.  just saying.

[Brisketexan 104624]

Just now, troph said:

comparing him to George W. Bush doesn't give me confidence.  just saying.

And that's fair.  But counterpoint: there ain't a Cheney or a Rumsfeld in Biden's braintrust.  Choosing to listen to good, competent people, who have the best interest of the country in mind, would be a nice thing.

[troph 24562]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

And that's fair.  But counterpoint: there ain't a Cheney or a Rumsfeld in Biden's braintrust.  Choosing to listen to good, competent people, who have the best interest of the country in mind, would be a nice thing.

I'm less worried about Biden but that was the compliment to Bush supposedly not so bright but humble and surrounded himself with great ones.  which, as bad as it was, is relatively true compared to Trump.  ugh.

[Brandywine 1313]

2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

I felt that way in 2016.  But Trump is worse than Satan.  Unless he is in fact Satan himself, then I just undersold Satan.

Anyone that hasn’t got Covid after all the infected people he’s been around, is Satan. 

[Brisketexan 104624]

15 minutes ago, troph said:

I'm less worried about Biden but that was the compliment to Bush supposedly not so bright but humble and surrounded himself with great ones.  which, as bad as it was, is relatively true compared to Trump.  ugh.

It WAS true.  But Bush was gullible.  Biden has been around a lot longer, and is a 100X more savvy than Bush.

But, we're on a divergent path here.  Suffice it to say that I value leadership with character, and true servant leadership character will find itself being consistent with core Christian principles more often than not.   As noted above, "love your neighbor" is a pillar of pretty much every religious and ethical system.

[Sawbonz 27434]

5 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I'll suggest (and a great many theologians agree with this) that the commandments are not hierarchical; rather, they are complimentary, and are meant to be read and followed TOGETHER.  After all, the lead in on the "love your neighbors" is "and a second is like it."

Love God.  How do we demonstrate our love for God?  We love His children.  All of them.  As is made clear elsewhere in the gospels, that means even our enemies.

That evangelicals manage to go not just astray from the gospels, but literally in opposition to them, is the most appalling thing.  "What would you do if a buncha illegals just showed up on your doorstep and demanded all of your food and water and clothing?"  I mean, the scriptural answer is so fucking easy, and so unambiguous -- give it to them.  Give all of it to them.  "But they're breaking the law!"  As a Christian, why should I care?  I am called -- actually, COMMANDED -- to follow a higher law (see the two great commandments).  Would it be hard for me to part with every scrap of food in my home if someone showed up and asked?  I'm sure it would.  But I also know that I've rarely felt more fulfilled in my life, and rarely felt close to God, than when I give freely of myself, and of my abundance (with which I have been blessed GREATLY beyond what I deserve -- there's that "grace" thing).

15-20 years ago, there was a trend of the WWJD bracelets -- "what would Jesus do?"  In some way, I wish that question would come back into vogue.  Because in almost every case, it's the exact opposite of what the evangelical "Christian" movement in the US is doing.

My kids are children of a father who went to Catholic schools his whole life until his first day at UT, and of a mother who is an ordained minister.  We have theological discussions/arguments around the dinner table, regularly.  Their disdain for "the church" -- as that creature exists in this country -- is near total.  They understand good and decent theology and Christian ethics.....which makes their disgust with American "Christianity" even sharper.  There's a future for Christianity in this country, or at least, there MIGHT be.  To the extent there is, it looks nothing like Liberty University and Jeffress and their ilk.  And to the extent that those outfits continue, they will only further diminish the faith.  And maybe that's okay.  If we're really Christians, we're resurrection people.  Sometimes things must die, in order to be reborn.

We need more Brisket Aquinas and less Brisket Robespierre 

[Sbbruin 21736]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I just spent the past week with someone who worked closely with Biden for a decade or so (and might again?)  He definitely confirmed that Joe isn't as sharp as he used to be (no surprise there), but he still is plenty aware and capable, and he also observed that most of the people that Joe has surrounded himself with are smart, on top of their game, and most importantly, Joe listens to them.  He agreed with the rest of us -- Joe isn't the perfect candidate.  But when it comes to basic decency, and the key ability to know how smart he's NOT, Joe brings that to the table.

And by the way, when it comes to a leader, that humility is a HUGE quality.  Asking for input from others, and taking it, is a key to success.  I've worked with hundreds of executives.  The dividing line between the successful ones and the failures was almost always based on that quality.

This can't be overstated.  No one knows everything.  The ones who think they do usually know the least.  Relying on people who specialize in specific areas of expertise to give their opinions and taking that opinion under advisement is what smart leaders do.  We have a President who, despite a basic ability to read and comprehend, is certain he is an expert in epidemiology and infectious disease and knows significantly more than someone who has been a leader in the field for 40 years.

[Sbbruin 21736]

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

We need more Brisket Aquinas and less Brisket Robespierre 

This may be one of the greatest lines ever typed on surly.

[Brisketexan 104624]

15 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

We need more Brisket Aquinas and less Brisket Robespierre 

1) There is a time for Robespierres......

2) I'm shooting for more like Luther (sans the anti-semitism):

Quote

 “We are permitted to laugh and have fun with and embrace our wives, whether they are naked or clothed,” just as Isaac fondled his wife in Genesis 26:8. (Later he would refer to sex between spouses as precious and beneficial.) And female companionship was an excellent antidote to a man’s melancholy. “When you are assailed by gloom, despair or a trouble conscience, you should eat, drink, and talk with others. If you can find help for yourself by thinking of a girl, do so.” . . .

And he wrote his most famous hymn based on a German drinking song (and Luther LOVED him some beer).  Luther....my man.

[Satchel 6908]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

My favorite pastor that I listen to on podcast is Tim Keller, of redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC. He built one of the biggest churches in that area not by dumbing it down for the masses but by really digging in and reading Gods word. 
he says something that I think is pretty smart...

if you were a liberal as a non believer and then meet God and become a Christin you are doing it wrong if you don’t become more conservative. God is a God that calls us to morally upstanding behavior and is in no way a relativist, and what he calls for can look regressive to lots of people. 

If you are  a conservative when you meet God and it doesn’t make you more liberal you are doing it wrong. God is a god of grace and mercy and love and it’s impossible for us to go too far in pouring these out for our fellow man, specially the so called “least among you”.  Whatever you were the point is that through Christ’s death and resurrection and your decision to walk with him he has created a new creature, and your heart of stone should instead be replaced with a heart of flesh. 
The problem with any church that wades in to politics is that they double and triple down on their conception of God and her further away from the other end. 
There is nothing about the evangelical movement that couldn’t be fixed by the leaders of the religious right spending all their times in soup kitchens, nursing homes, prisons, homeless and women’s shelters and the like. And I go to a church where we spend a lot of time doing that- and I love that about my church. 
we don’t have enough people doing enough of that though. 
Similarly, God is not your non judgmental friend that says whatever feels good do it and there are no rules man. Nothing but love. 

My early spiritual formation took place in my neighborhood.Baptist church and during my twelve years of religious education in Catholic school. It was when I became a United Methodist later that I took the best from each tradition to form a Credo that helped clarify how I should live. I now understand why acts of justice trump acts of charity. I understand why Oscar Romero fell from favor with the power elite of El Salvador when he stopped touting charity and started asking tough moral questions of those vested in keeping people in poverty. It’s clear to me why today’s evangelicals eschew behavior long thought to be definitive of Christian living and are now satisfied to define faith in political terms. 
Christianity that is easily confused with Americanism is not Christianity, imo.

[TwiceHorn 31280]

3 hours ago, F250 said:

Beth Moore is a influential voice in the Evangelical community. She has been somewhat of a lightning rod over the past few years within the Southern Baptist Convention due to her gender (Women ought not teach men) and her criticism of Trump.

 

 

Pardon my judgment, but THAT is exactly what's wrong with congregational churches.

At some level, churches need a hierarchy that can basically tell uneducated lay parishioners to STFU or GTFO.

I suppose any church congregation can express dissatisfaction with their pastor, but they don't have the final say except in congregational churches.  And that leads to bad theology and bad behavior.  A church with structure isn't going to let a congregation "investigate" or dismiss a pastor for fundamentally unChristian reasons.

The single common thread among "evangelicals," which is a fairly worthless adjective or noun, is congregationalism.  

Edited July 13, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Beau Vine 54001]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

As an adult, I discovered a Christian faith that challenges me and frightens me, as opposed to comforting me.  And I've realized that is how it is supposed to be.

One of my best friends, who used to be our pastor, did a sermon about that one Sunday, and I honestly was close to standing up and applauding when it was over.  "Christianity is not supposed to be some self-help club that makes you feel better about yourself."  You can probably tell from that theme that she is not Baptist.

[workswithseed 2036]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Pardon my judgment, but THAT is exactly what's wrong with congregational churches.

At some level, churches need a hierarchy that can basically tell uneducated lay parishioners to STFU or GTFO.

I suppose any church congregation can express dissatisfaction with their pastor, but they don't have the final say except in congregational churches.  And that leads to bad theology and bad behavior.

The single common thread among "evangelicals," which is a fairly worthless adjective or noun, is congregationalism.  

Elders are the top of the totem at Church of Christ, then deacons. Pastor is very outside. The Denton Church of Christ finally got rid of their pastor, but it took them long enough.

[TwiceHorn 31280]

4 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Elders are the top of the totem at Church of Christ, then deacons. Pastor is very outside. The Denton Church of Christ finally got rid of their pastor, but it took them long enough.

And why did they get rid of him?

[Mole 4320]

It makes us feel smart to say that policy is supreme, and it is important, but I’m glad to see more and more people of various political persuasions recognize the more fundamental issues. 
 

A president’s view on abortion isn’t relevant in the face of the compounding disasters of 2020, or the 2008 financial crash, or the 9/11 attacks, yet we let these and other issues define how we vote. These policies no doubt matter, but they pale in comparison to making sure that our leaders have the qualities of leadership that will carry us through the inevitable crisis that faces every presidency. 
 

Even worse, we let the identity of these policies define how we vote rather than the character of leadership. Policies matter, but are less important than leadership; abstractions of policies (partisan identity) are the worst way to choose a leader.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Mole

[workswithseed 2036]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

And why did they get rid of him?

I wasn't there when they did, so I'm not sure, but I went to some of his sermons back when I was living in Denton and didn't want to go to Sanger, and the man was pretty terrible (to me) at preaching. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by workswithseed

[F250 28688]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

We need more Brisket Aquinas and less Brisket Robespierre 

[F250 28688]

45 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Pardon my judgment, but THAT is exactly what's wrong with congregational churches.

At some level, churches need a hierarchy that can basically tell uneducated lay parishioners to STFU or GTFO.

I suppose any church congregation can express dissatisfaction with their pastor, but they don't have the final say except in congregational churches.  And that leads to bad theology and bad behavior.  A church with structure isn't going to let a congregation "investigate" or dismiss a pastor for fundamentally unChristian reasons.

The single common thread among "evangelicals," which is a fairly worthless adjective or noun, is congregationalism.  

Congregational tyranny.

[WhatTheBuck 28712]

2 hours ago, troph said:

comparing him to George W. Bush doesn't give me confidence.  just saying.

Dubya is a lot more comparable to Trump than he is to Biden. Famously unread, uninformed, intellectually incurious, needed his briefings kept short and simple, ruled by his gut. Denied science and engaged in magical thinking. Was way too cozy with the Saudis. Liked to give everyone nicknames. The Bush 43 administration foreshadowed the Trump administration in a thousand different ways, Trump just took them all and turned them up to 11. 

Biden has spent his life in public service. He knows the issues. He didn't just start studying foreign policy after he decided to run for president like Bush did (and then chose Saudi Prince Bandar as his tutor).

 

[Gatorubet 30105]

6 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s not logical man. We are to worship the creator at all times in all ways. Now, love of god that looks like dying to yourself and following his prescription for your life necessarily involves living your neighbor as yourself, obviously, but rejecting or failure to hold your creator in reverence is highly sinful. It’s also abundantly clear in both the Old Testament and New Testament that we are called to do this. The first part of the 10 commandments deals with our relationship to creator and the second part our relationship with the created. Jesus then says the same thing in his teachings exactly as I laid it out. 
 

It is very logical.  And if you want to buy into Ant Farm Theology - where God could have with a wave of his hand made us in a different way, and erased want and pain and disease, but decided it was more fun to watch how we dealt with it all, and punish us for not worshiping him enough for the privilege - then by all means  carry on.  

But the truth is literalists (Evangelicals) are stupid and dangerous.  Always have been.  (They were the biggest advocates of slavery in the South.)  80% Evangelical support of Trump is solid evidence of that stupidity.   Almost beyond questioning.   I will say that the link between Trumpkins and Covid and Evangelicals is a simple one: magical thinking begets magical thinking.  If you are a "God said it, i believe it, that ends it" type, you will always be as gullible as Daryl, Daryl and his brother Daryl come to town.   Wayfair sex rings, Covid is a hoax, Aggie 12th man, etc.      It is a good thing that Trump is helping to end Evangelical Christianity just like he is hurting the GOP.   IMO, of course. 

[Gatorubet 30105]

3 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

This may be one of the greatest lines ever typed on surly.

Preach

[Gatorubet 30105]

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I'll suggest (and a great many theologians agree with this) that the commandments are not hierarchical; rather, they are complimentary, and are meant to be read and followed TOGETHER.  After all, the lead in on the "love your neighbors" is "and a second is like it."

Love God.  How do we demonstrate our love for God?  We love His children.  All of them.  As is made clear elsewhere in the gospels, that means even our enemies.

That evangelicals manage to go not just astray from the gospels, but literally in opposition to them, is the most appalling thing.

I can roll with that.   But we need to do that NOT primarily to please God -  but because it is the right thing to do.  I certainly hope that it pleases God, and if it pleases Him or Her, that is a bonus. Semantics and theological construction are not as important as actions.