Trump’s Gestapo in Portland

[JimmyJames 12,271]

33 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Tough guy?  I'm not challenging them to a fight.  I'm asking them to step from behind keyboards and to work together in person to contribute to something we all believe in.  Instead of bickering, let's do something in real life.  And if that is too much, let's protest together in Texas.      

 

Why cross into the realm of reality when we can stay at safe distances on the internet?  Those are the most sincere of all.  

Yeah let’s all get on a bus together to Portland. 

[wildcat09 29,376]

19 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

I'm not questioning the actions or beliefs of your family.  You claim that I don't really care about this issue, that I am an apologist, etc.  You are the one challenging my sincerity on this issue.   So fine, let's do something together in person. I believe we would get along in real life and see eye to eye on most things and so I don't see that as some type of dare.  I think the same about huckleberry.  What is the dare exactly?  To work together for a common cause?  Now you don't want to do that which is fine, but to act like I am fake or giving antagonizing dares when I am the one willing to protest together side by side with you is nonsense.  You want to see me as opponent on this issue merely because I think it is crazy to deliberately put kids out as bait to get beaten.  That's pretty much the only thing we disagree about here.  

"Look you say you're just looking for a nice guy who loves you, so if you really mean that how about I take this gun away from your head and we go out to dinner? I swear I'm really a great guy and once you get to know me you'll love me!"

[Brisketexan 105,266]

6 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Let the adults fight (I'm talking actual violence here) the adults and leave the kids out.

Yes.  Let's keep it to people who the government paramilitary forces can easily demonize as "antifa terrorists."  It's not like we know that's exactly what they will do.  And by all means, let's NOT include people whose very future is at stake.  And WHATEVER we do, let's not expect the government to not violently attack its own citizens.  That's just RIDICULOUS.

It's funny that you think you're being effective here.

There is one problem here.  Just one.  Government paramilitary forces who are happy to violently attack American citizens to repress any dissent.  That's it.  That's the entire problem.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Brisketexan

[G650 14,273]

This Axiom guy is something else.

[BrickHorn 18,271]

I’m starting to think that this country really is headed for a civil war. If anything, it’s the rhetoric of my fellow leftists that has me more worried about that possibility. Escalating protests in the face of state-sanctioned and right wing violence only increases the chances of a fracturing event.

That’s certainly what happened in Syria. All that optimism for an Arab Spring, where high-minded protests were projected to usher in a new enlightenment in the Middle East, amounted to shit. Protests didn’t result in democracy. They provided the kindling for nine years (and counting) of bloody civil war. 

I’m not saying the answer is to stay at home. But we have to understand that incremental mutual escalation is a recipe for bloodshed. A couple of deaths at these protests could kick off a series of violent retributions that spins out of control. 

[Jive Turkey 12,640]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

DHS needs to go. Start over again, maybe go back to INS. 

If they tried this in Baltimore, you think Marlo and Chris and Avon and Prop Joe would let the feds just stroll into town and disrupt their operations?

Wonder if the gangbangers in Chi-town are gonna have a response. 

[InkaUtexas 26,063]

2 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I’m starting to think that this country really is headed for a civil war. If anything, it’s the rhetoric of my fellow leftists that has me more worried about that possibility. Escalating protests in the face of state-sanctioned and right wing violence only increases the chances of a fracturing event.

That’s certainly what happened in Syria. All that optimism for an Arab Spring, where high-minded protests were projected to usher in a new enlightenment in the Middle East, amounted to shit. Protests didn’t result in democracy. They provided the kindling for nine years (and counting) of bloody civil war. 

I’m not saying the answer is to stay at home. But we have to understand that incremental mutual escalation is a recipe for bloodshed. A couple of deaths at these protests could kick off a series of violent retributions that spins out of control. 

And if Assad had allowed for protests he may have had some reforms and prevented the conflict. Instead he beat the crap out of the protestors, arrested and tortured thousands and here we go. I for one would hope we could have better leadership than the Assad family. 

[bad_teammate 13,224]

Is Axiom worse than me?

Is that even possible?

[Captainant 27,726]

16 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Agreed.  Although I don't think there is a disconnect.   I have a hard time believe that any of you would hope that your 12 year old kids get beat so that it sends a message to the world.  I also have a hard time believing any one you would deliberately take your kids to what you knew would be a violent protest with batons and tear gas.  If you all would, then yes there is a disconnect.  Let the adults fight (I'm talking actual violence here) the adults and leave the kids out.  

Is going to a peaceful protest a tacit acceptance of getting brutalized by the police? If so, I have some boots you could shine too while you're working on the feds

[Leeroy Jenkins 2,410]

16 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

Well, no wonder he’s a badass.

He wrestled for The Naval Academy.

 

That was a USNA sweatshirt he had one.  Plebe issue style.   

[UpperWestside 6,186]

I am looking forward to Axiom eventually starting his own Welcome to the American Inquisition: Part 2 thread in the near future.

[Rougarou 594]

10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I’m starting to think that this country really is headed for a civil war. If anything, it’s the rhetoric of my fellow leftists that has me more worried about that possibility. Escalating protests in the face of state-sanctioned and right wing violence only increases the chances of a fracturing event.

That’s certainly what happened in Syria. All that optimism for an Arab Spring, where high-minded protests were projected to usher in a new enlightenment in the Middle East, amounted to shit. Protests didn’t result in democracy. They provided the kindling for nine years (and counting) of bloody civil war. 

I’m not saying the answer is to stay at home. But we have to understand that incremental mutual escalation is a recipe for bloodshed. A couple of deaths at these protests could kick off a series of violent retributions that spins out of control. 

Completely agree with you here, because really I think there are two options: Incremental-microscopic-iceberg-slow-change that has an appearance of "things go back to normal" and life goes on until the next compelling event in 6-12-18 months OR compelling events start happening so frequently that we have a Civil War.

[BrickHorn 18,271]

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And if Assad had allowed for protests he may have had some reforms and prevented the conflict. Instead he beat the crap out of the protestors, arrested and tortured thousands and here we go. I for one would hope we could have better leadership than the Assad family. 

Narrator: we don’t.

[Brisketexan 105,266]

12 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I’m starting to think that this country really is headed for a civil war. If anything, it’s the rhetoric of my fellow leftists that has me more worried about that possibility. Escalating protests in the face of state-sanctioned and right wing violence only increases the chances of a fracturing event.

That’s certainly what happened in Syria. All that optimism for an Arab Spring, where high-minded protests were projected to usher in a new enlightenment in the Middle East, amounted to shit. Protests didn’t result in democracy. They provided the kindling for nine years (and counting) of bloody civil war. 

I’m not saying the answer is to stay at home. But we have to understand that incremental mutual escalation is a recipe for bloodshed. A couple of deaths at these protests could kick off a series of violent retributions that spins out of control. 

What we're counting on is our last firewall.  And seriously, that's what we're down to -- our last firewall.

That firewall is the American people, and the hope that they will not accept a brutal totalitarian regime.  It's the hope that we are still the kind of country that simply will not accept a regime going full-totalitarian roaming gangs of government paramilitary thugs, and will remove the legitimacy of the regime.....and an illegitimate regime will fall.  That's the hope.  But it's no guarantee.

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And if Assad had allowed for protests he may have had some reforms and prevented the conflict. Instead he beat the crap out of the protestors, arrested and tortured thousands and here we go. I for one would hope we could have better leadership than the Assad family. 

We don't.  Shit, Assad was violent and cruel with an actual goal.  Trump is motivated solely by narcissism.  I don't know which is more dangerous.  I really don't.

[F250 28,814]

A pretty good thread by one of the guys from Cato (wHy aRe lIbEtArIaNs sIlEnT). The problem is bigger than just Portland. There is a reason Trump has been able to use the Border Patrol as his Gestapo which is related to the broad powers accumulated over the years since the creation of DHS.

There is a link to an interview with Joshua Childress, the Border Patrol agent that quit over Children in Cages. Childress mentions that these immigration policies already existed prior to Trump and were used under the Obama administration. The only difference is that Trump operates without compassion and violates Presidential norms. The tools for abuse already existed and the problem is bigger than Trump. DHS/ICE need to be abolished and the CBP powers need to DC stripped back to what they were prior to 9/11.

We should not rely on the good behavior of a President, these federal powers that allow the Border Patrol to extend into a majority of the U.S. must be removed.

 

 

[bad_teammate 13,224]

1) It is very cool to travel to protest in solidarity with citizens who live elsewhere.
2) It is ALSO very cool to focus on your local area's activities.
3) It's less cool than 1 & 2, but it's still cool to send money to activists elsewhere or locally.
4) It's still kind of cool to go into social spaces (virtual and physical) to express support. Less cool than the other 3.

Do all of them. Do just one. Whatever, it all helps to some extent. Posting ain't praxis, but it's marginally better than nothing.

[StruggleBus 3,922]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Is Axiom worse than me?

Is that even possible?

Don't sell yourself short

[hayden_horn 11,365]

36 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Agreed.  Although I don't think there is a disconnect.   I have a hard time believe that any of you would hope that your 12 year old kids get beat so that it sends a message to the world.  I also have a hard time believing any one you would deliberately take your kids to what you knew would be a violent protest with batons and tear gas.  If you all would, then yes there is a disconnect.  Let the adults fight (I'm talking actual violence here) the adults and leave the kids out.  

 

You wrote that it would be good to put kids in a situation to get beaten.  Maybe getting around some folks that provide a different perspective would not be such a bad thing.   

 

People on the internet are just people.  There is nothing to be afraid of.

yeah, no, you aren't getting it. there comes a time when people become politically aware, and following that, a time when people become politically active. i was very politically aware early on in my teen years, as gulf war 1 was getting underway, and i started really paying attention. my kids are similarly politically aware, and i did not have much to do with shaping their beliefs - donald trump did all the heavy lifting there. i've always voted, but i never was actually politically active until recently. i've it in my heart to do my part now, to protest police and to turn texas blue and burn down the republican party as we know it.

i would view taking my sons to a protest similar to taking them to aclfest (which we did, for metallica, parent of the motherfucking year, for real though) or any large public gathering. obviously covid-19 shapes this a little bit, but i understand they are probably going to see some shit. hell, they see some shit when i drive north on manchaca under the ben white overpass. there is an element of danger in any large gathering, just as there is in taking them out on the interstate for the first time when they get their permits to learn how to drive. it's part of growing up - learning that the world is real, and sometimes raw and ugly and unsafe. but the flip side is that they learn to have faith in their fellow man as part of a peaceful protest, to learn that their voice is also important in the conversation. and also learn that the police are like human resources - they aren't here to help you. 

there is also value in teaching them how to try and be part of the solution, even if there is some danger involved. @Brisketexan may have been a bit inelegant with his language, as he sometimes is when he gets his back up, but he's right that the motherfucking point stands that we should be able to walk with our families in a peaceful protest without fear of police assault. that's kind of the whole fucking point of this protest.  we can shield them from the real world only so long, but there are certain milestones that happen whether we like it or not. black lives matter is one such thing that did not escape their attention, has been somewhat confusing for them, and they are growing up before my very eyes as they turn from little boys into young men, learning to ask the right questions and starting to derive their own answers as a result. that's our job, right? help them grow up to be better than we are, and to think for themselves?

Edited July 20, 2020 by hayden_horn

[UpperWestside 6,186]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

1) It is very cool to travel to protest in solidarity with citizens who live elsewhere.
2) It is ALSO very cool to focus on your local area's activities.
3) It's less cool than 1 & 2, but it's still cool to send money to activists elsewhere or locally.
4) It's still kind of cool to go into social spaces (virtual and physical) to express support. Less cool than the other 3.

Do all of them. Do just one. Whatever, it all helps to some extent. Posting ain't praxis, but it's marginally better than nothing.

That dumbass attempt to make people prove their support for change by going to Portland was something a crazy person proposes. 
 

My first protest in my entire life was getting on Amtrak and going to DC to support the BLM Movement for a week in early June. Not everyone can do that, but it’s cool. I just hope that we see more people all around the country getting out and protesting because our big dumb president is going to fan the flames of racism all across this country with increasing regularity. He’ll do it straight through to the election and we as citizens need to be there to say this bullshit is not okay and it is going to stop. 

[BrickHorn 18,271]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What we're counting on is our last firewall.  And seriously, that's what we're down to -- our last firewall.

That firewall is the American people, and the hope that they will not accept a brutal totalitarian regime.  It's the hope that we are still the kind of country that simply will not accept a regime going full-totalitarian roaming gangs of government paramilitary thugs, and will remove the legitimacy of the regime.....and an illegitimate regime will fall.  That's the hope.  But it's no guarantee.

Haha. The American people will save us? Have you ever been to America? 

The threat is not so much a totalitarian regime as it is the relatively sizable faction of heavily-armed, easily-duped, extreme right wing nutjobs who actively desire a civil war and are fanatically allied with that regime. That faction has grown. It’s no longer limited to a few compounds scattered throughout rural Oregon, Idaho, and Michigan. I’d bet all of us have at least one family member who you could see picking up an AR15 and taking up the cause of God and Trump against the Evil Libtards. And you probably have several more who would support the far right side or at least sympathize with that side. 

We’re in a really dangerous time. The country is polarized and one side is trigger happy and spoiling for a holy war. That side may be a minority, but it’s big enough and well enough armed to not be easily subdued, and it is allied with the Commander in Chief of the only force that could possibly subdue it. If bullets start flying before January, the federal government isn’t coming to the rescue of the good guys. 

 

[bad_teammate 13,224]

4 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

That dumbass attempt to make people prove their support for change by going to Portland was something a crazy person proposes. 
 

My first protest in my entire life was getting on Amtrak and going to DC to support the BLM Movement for a week in early June. Not everyone can do that, but it’s cool. I just hope that we see more people all around the country getting out and protesting because our big dumb president is going to fan the flames of racism all across this country with increasing regularity. He’ll do it straight through to the election and we as citizens need to be there to say this bullshit is not okay and it is going to stop. 

I have fucking loved reading your posts about it, dude.

It's easy to feel like you're accomplishing nothing and that the people you're trying to fight for won't be helped by your efforts; I'm a lefty guy in Houston and the number of "successes" I can count from local activism can feel like they would fit on the head of a fucking pin. Sometimes all an activist needs to keep going is someone saying, "Hey kick ass! Great job!" on the Internet.

6 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

The threat is not so much a totalitarian regime as it is the relatively sizable faction of heavily-armed, easily-duped, extreme right wing nutjobs who actively desire a civil war and are fanatically allied with that regime. That faction has grown. It’s no longer limited to a few compounds scattered throughout rural Oregon, Idaho, and Michigan. I’d bet all of us have at least one family member who you could see picking up an AR15 and taking up the cause of God and Trump against the Evil Libtards.

Yeah, this'll lead to an increase in right-wing terrorism. 100%

[Rougarou 594]

9 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Haha. The American people will save us? Have you ever been to America? 

The threat is not so much a totalitarian regime as it is the relatively sizable faction of heavily-armed, easily-duped, extreme right wing nutjobs who actively desire a civil war and are fanatically allied with that regime. That faction has grown. It’s no longer limited to a few compounds scattered throughout rural Oregon, Idaho, and Michigan. I’d bet all of us have at least one family member who you could see picking up an AR15 and taking up the cause of God and Trump against the Evil Libtards. And you probably have several more who would support the far right side or at least sympathize with that side. 

We’re in a really dangerous time. The country is polarized and one side is trigger happy and spoiling for a holy war. That side may be a minority, but it’s big enough and well enough armed to not be easily subdued, and it is allied with the Commander in Chief of the only force that could possibly subdue it. If bullets start flying before January, the federal government isn’t coming to the rescue of the good guys. 

 

The folks you describe remind me of that scene in Cold Mountain when the South found out they were going to war and they were hootin' and hollerin' "Woo we got our war finally!" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNsKtiLYrw0

[InkaUtexas 26,063]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We don't.  Shit, Assad was violent and cruel with an actual goal.  Trump is motivated solely by narcissism.  I don't know which is more dangerous.  I really don't.

Agree, but common area is there is no negotiation with either. 

[hayden_horn 11,365]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I have fucking loved reading your posts about it, dude.

It's easy to feel like you're accomplishing nothing and that the people you're trying to fight for won't be helped by your efforts; I'm a lefty guy in Houston and the number of "successes" I can count from local activism can feel like they would fit on the head of a fucking pin. Sometimes all an activist needs to keep going is someone saying, "Hey kick ass! Great job!" on the Internet.

Yeah, this'll lead to an increase in right-wing terrorism. 100%

it already has. see: police teargassing people moms and naked protestors. these gestapo tactics are right-wing terrorist acts, imo

[Goredho 17,413]

2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

DHS needs to go. Start over again, maybe go back to INS. 

If this isn't the most fucked up "if all you have is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail" bullshit.

135,000+ Americans dead from a pandemic, and Trump and the federal government can't be bothered -- they want to turn the page and leave all of the states to fend for themselves.

But one mother fucker gives a statue of General Lee the stink eye and they will muster a paramilitary federal response to take over law enforcement from the cities.

I think @F250 originally posted about the SRA, but its time people start preparing themselves to fight for the country they want to live in.

 

[Brisketexan 105,266]

34 minutes ago, F250 said:

A pretty good thread by one of the guys from Cato (wHy aRe lIbEtArIaNs sIlEnT). The problem is bigger than just Portland. There is a reason Trump has been able to use the Border Patrol as his Gestapo which is related to the broad powers accumulated over the years since the creation of DHS.

There is a link to an interview with Joshua Childress, the Border Patrol agent that quit over Children in Cages. Childress mentions that these immigration policies already existed prior to Trump and were used under the Obama administration. The only difference is that Trump operates without compassion and violates Presidential norms. The tools for abuse already existed and the problem is bigger than Trump. DHS/ICE need to be abolished and the CBP powers need to DC stripped back to what they were prior to 9/11.

We should not rely on the good behavior of a President, these federal powers that allow the Border Patrol to extend into a majority of the U.S. must be removed.

 

 

ALL of this.  Creation of the DHS was one of the scariest and dumbest things we've ever done.  I wish that so-called Constitutionalists cared about the 4th amendment as much as they do the 2nd.  Because if they did, reining in CBP would be really fucking high on their list.

BUT....it's the agency charged with cracking messican skulls, so....they're okay with it.  The government is BAD! (No Gestapo in Bastropo!).....except when it's cracking minority skulls....then we BACK THE BLUE!  SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

The dirty secret is that a shitload of us are gleeful fascists....and even worse, it includes a shitload who call themselves "libertarians.'  They aren't.

34 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

1) It is very cool to travel to protest in solidarity with citizens who live elsewhere.
2) It is ALSO very cool to focus on your local area's activities.
3) It's less cool than 1 & 2, but it's still cool to send money to activists elsewhere or locally.
4) It's still kind of cool to go into social spaces (virtual and physical) to express support. Less cool than the other 3.

Do all of them. Do just one. Whatever, it all helps to some extent. Posting ain't praxis, but it's marginally better than nothing.

And there's a shitload more to do.  Drill down to where the rubber meets the road.  Work with minority organizations, work with schools in minority areas, work with HBCUs to create more pathways to top-tier professional positions, putting minorities in positions of greater power in society, etc.  Stand up to advocate on behalf of individuals being crushed by the system and prejudice.  Provide individual tutoring for students who need the help to get to the next level.

The fight for justice and equality has a million fronts.  Every one of them matters.

EDIT: shit, I almost forgot....I've sent my wife (you know, someone I love as much as I love my children) to participate in active protests and marches of resistance at Lafayette Square and Tornillo in just the past year or so.  I mean, she was boots on the ground, facing off with law enforcement.  And if you don't think that daring them to gas a bunch of people in clerical collars and robes wasn't on the table....you're fucking stupid.  We both knew, eyes-wide-open, what was going on and what she was going into.

30 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

black lives matter is one such thing that did not escape their attention, has been somewhat confusing for them, and they are growing up before my very eyes as they turn from little boys into young men.

And that is how they become young men.  When they look at the world as a place made up of people other than themselves.  When they reach the steadfast conclusion that to accept injustice done to their fellow men would be to fail in their duty as human beings.  The future belongs to them - dear God, at least I hope it does.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Brisketexan

[workswithseed 2,110]

3 hours ago, Dropout said:

My heroine

Then think of all of the homeless shit that she's sitting on.

[bad_teammate 13,224]

3 minutes ago, Axiom of Choice said:

Suggesting number 1 means you are an insincere tough guy phony.  

No.

You're an insincere tough guy phony because you're not suggesting it as a sincere act of solidarity, you're using it like a masculinity challenge and attempting to demean the other options by making #1 sound like the only valid one.

You're a troll whose success relies on brute obstinance instead of any kind of clever subtlety or humor. Would be cooler if you were cool, honestly.

[BrickHorn 18,271]

Goredho’s Post is exactly the stuff that has me worried. The Left’s self control is the only thing keeping this country from imploding into a massacre. When people on our side resign themselves to war, all hope for peace fades.

And let me be clear: the good guys cannot and will not win a civil war that kicks off during a Trump presidency. Our best hope to save the nation is to make it to the Biden era as peacefully as possible and then start working on ways to deescalate. It will be a long term project and it will involve something nobody wants to talk about right now: compromise. 

[Brisketexan 105,266]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No.

You're an insincere tough guy phony because you're not suggesting it as a sincere act of solidarity, you're using it like a masculinity challenge and attempting to demean the other options by making #1 sound like the only valid one.

You're a troll whose success relies on brute obstinance instead of any kind of clever subtlety or humor. Would be cooler if you were cool, honestly.

Perhaps the worst thing about AOC is that he's making me agree with and rep bad teammate.

[bad_teammate 13,224]

The South Would Lose Again

[bad_teammate 13,224]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Perhaps the worst thing about AOC is that he's making me agree with and rep bad teammate.

Don't call him AOC. She's fucking cool as hell.

Axiom sucks ass.

[Mrs Whiggins 13,050]

8 minutes ago, Goredho said:

If this isn't the most fucked up "if all you have is a hammer, you treat everything like a nail" bullshit.

135,000+ Americans dead from a pandemic, and Trump and the federal government can't be bothered -- they want to turn the page and leave all of the states to fend for themselves.

But one mother fucker gives a statue of General Lee the stink eye and they will muster a paramilitary federal response to take over law enforcement from the cities.

I think @F250 originally posted about the SRA, but its time people start preparing themselves to fight for the country they want to live in.

 

Are they going with implementing this on multiple fronts? (i.e. they are staying in Portland and also beginning something in Chicago?) Just how many of these mercenaries employees do they have? Was this another reason for shutting down July and August (not just the virus and to save money but so they could get this rolling)?

If DHS is going for a multi prong approach, unless there is a conduit for leaks, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these start happening with no warning.

[wildcat09 29,376]

12 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it already has. see: police teargassing people moms and naked protestors. these gestapo tactics are right-wing terrorist acts, imo

There's also been something like two dozen car attacks against protests (could be more, I lost count at 17 or 18 a few weeks ago and am just assuming they've continued).

[Brisketexan 105,266]

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Goredho’s Post is exactly the stuff that has me worried. The Left’s self control is the only thing keeping this country from imploding into a massacre. When people on our side resign themselves to war, all hope for peace fades.

And let me be clear: the good guys cannot and will not win a civil war that kicks off during a Trump presidency. Our best hope to save the nation is to make it to the Biden era as peacefully as possible and then start working on ways to deescalate. It will be a long term project and it will involve something nobody wants to talk about right now: compromise. 

In a functioning democratic republic (or at least a place that styles itself as one), what is one of the surest ways to deprive the sitting government of legitimacy?  Put it in a position where that government cannot help its impulse to act in wholly undemocratic ways.  Metaphor-wise, get them to tell you what they WANT to tell you....get them to shout to the world that

 

Using paramilitary irregulars to attack civilians is the surest sign of an illegitimate government in a democratic republic.  When they hit us....we win.  When they don't hit us.....we win.  Put the enemy in an unwinnable position.  There is no pain-free path here.....except acquiescing to totalitarianism.  And even that isn't pain-free -- it's just pain-deferred.

You don't negotiate with jackboots.  You make them back down, or you make them jackboot.

 

[Brisketexan 105,266]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Are they going with implementing this on multiple fronts? (i.e. they are staying in Portland and also beginning something in Chicago?) Just how many of these mercenaries employees do they have? Was this another reason for shutting down July and August (not just the virus and to save money but so they could get this rolling)?

If DHS is going for a multi prong approach, unless there is a conduit for leaks, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these start happening with no warning.

Then Axiom will be thrilled -- the opportunity to march against jackbooted paramilitary irregulars, coming to your home town!

A shitload of us are going to get our chance to tell these shitheels to get fucked, right here in our own River City.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Perhaps the worst thing about AOC is that he's making me agree with and rep bad teammate.

He is making BT look pretty good. 

[RomaVicta 29,967]

How many people are even paying attention to this? Yesterday (Sunday) I turned on the news stations to see what they were saying about Portland. Both CNN and MSNBC we rehashing the same stuff about Covid and then transitioned to something else unrelated to Portland. They remain lazy and hostile to news. I'm guessing that they're waiting for print journalists and local TV crews to provide them with grist for their opinion panels.

Interestingly, back in the days when there were only three network who could fund news departments, there might be wall to wall coverage of Portland and more aggressive live reporting from hospitals about Covid. 

I genuinely have no idea where this story ranks with the general public or if half of the public even knows about it. Maybe Wolf's oddball pronouncements will make people think they're watching a Harrison Ford thriller where he save the country from the Russians or Arabs or the Cartels.

[BrickHorn 18,271]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In a functioning democratic republic (or at least a place that styles itself as one), what is one of the surest ways to deprive the sitting government of legitimacy?  Put it in a position where that government cannot help its impulse to act in wholly undemocratic ways.  Metaphor-wise, get them to tell you what they WANT to tell you....get them to shout to the world that

 

Using paramilitary irregulars to attack civilians is the surest sign of an illegitimate government in a democratic republic.  When they hit us....we win.  When they don't hit us.....we win.  Put the enemy in an unwinnable position.  There is no pain-free path here.....except acquiescing to totalitarianism.  And even that isn't pain-free -- it's just pain-deferred.

You don't negotiate with jackboots.  You make them back down, or you make them jackboot.

 

Hell, your strategy worked like a charm in Syria. Why not give it a shot here?

[Goredho 17,413]

I am going to call the shot(s).  Sometime between now and November, the following will seem quaint.



Edit:  We are being given fair warning this is the path we are on.  Its up to all of us to decide if we're going to sit idly by as it comes to pass.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Goredho

[Nivek 16,976]

People who sacrifice children for their ideological or political goals are monsters.   That's you.  If you care so much, drive up to Portland and fight them yourself. 

Didn’t your God demand just that? Only with the twist of demanding the father as the executioner.

[Brisketexan 105,266]

4 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

Hell, your strategy worked like a charm in Syria. Why not give it a shot here?

If we're no better than Syria, then fuck it, we've already lost the whole fucking thing.  There's not point in even caring.

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I am going to call the shot(s).  Sometime between now and November, the following will seem quaint.

The chances of you being correct are uncomfortably high.

But it does provide some damned interesting points of comparison.

Quote

The shootings led to protests on college campuses throughout the United States, and a student strike, causing more than 450 campuses across the country to close with both violent and non-violent demonstrations.[10] A common sentiment was expressed by students at New York University with a banner hung out of a window that read, "They Can't Kill Us All."

.....

A Gallup Poll taken the day after the shootings reportedly showed that 58 percent of respondents blamed the students, 11 percent blamed the National Guard and 31 percent expressed no opinion.[51] However, there was wide discussion as to whether these were legally justified shootings of American citizens, and whether the protests or the decisions to ban them were constitutional. These debates served to further galvanize uncommitted opinion by the terms of the discourse.

We've faced shit somewhat like this before.  Yielding is the last thing we should do.

[bad_teammate 13,224]

1 minute ago, Axiom of Choice said:

How do you know what my motivations are?

Brisket already explained it aptly.

What we choose to talk about the positions we choose to take reveal what is inside. It's actually not that difficult to read people based on their actions and words; we've evolved for hundreds of thousands of years doing just that.

All you do here is concern troll from the right against progressives. By their fruits we know them.

Quote

 I say let's forget silly internet games and protest together in person, and I am told that is a masculine challenge and bluster. 

That's not what you said.

Here's what you said:
"Why are you not going to Portland to march yourself?  Do you care so much about this cause that you want other people's children to get hurt, but not enough to inconvenience yourself?"

You're dishonest and not even fun or clever about it. Maybe you're too stupid to understand how dull and obvious you are? Maybe you think we're too stupid to read your words? I think it's the former, honestly.

Quote

I have said elsewhere that I have personally dealt with police brutality and have been been arguing for reduced police forces for many years, and I am told I am not sincere by people who have never even been arrested and never mentioned a single word about reduction in police force until this recent movement.  I say I think we would l get along just fine and do not hold any silly internet grudges, but somehow I am the emotional one and the troll.  Trolls offer to meet in person to protest together?  This is all unadulterated nonsense.   

You didn't do this. You're lying. Stop lying.

[bad_teammate 13,224]

Just now, Axiom of Choice said:

Let's see if you admit I was not lying and that you are wrong:

That is not a sincere offer, as evidenced by your introduction to the concept, which I quoted.

I will explain...

"... but not enough to inconvenience yourself" is a call-out and insult. And buddy, I'm a professional asshole online so I LOVE a good call-out and escalation, don't get me wrong. But when you start out a conversation by calling people out and being an asshole to them, any subsequent "hey let's work together" is trolling unless you have come to a reapproachment with them.

So for that to be a sincere offer you would have to get some indication that the person you're talking to wanted your company or participation. By saying "Let's me, you, and huckleberry" you are placing yourself in a group you are not wanted in, and even beyond that, making yourself the arbiter of sincerity after starting the whole thing on insincere footing. That's not solidarity, it's brinksmanship.

I think it's fairly well confirmed that you're actually too dumb to realize you're a troll. Which is fun, because I get to explain in very clear terms how fucking stupid you are.

[BrickHorn 18,271]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If we're no better than Syria, then fuck it, we've already lost the whole fucking thing.

We are much more similar to Syria now than we’d all like to admit. But that is mainly because of who currently runs the US government. If we can get to a Biden presidency, things will change and the situation will be much more stable. 

Since there’s a chance that our situation will improve for the better in 6 months without the need to fight a civil war, that seems the much smarter path. Keep a cool head, vote, and support a peaceful transition of power. If that doesn’t work, then we’re no worse off than before and we at least know that a civil war was unavoidable. That’s when massive protests (for example, protests against election fraud or refusal to recognize the legitimate winner) would make the most sense.  But we should do everything possible to avoid a conflict now, because the surest way to guarantee that Trump stays in office is civil war. And a civil war with Trump in charge of the US military is the end of the Republic, probably forever.

Edited July 20, 2020 by BrickHorn

[bad_teammate 13,224]

Come on, man, isn't your gimmick that you're the smart one who can deconstruct logic? Like Escriva's act used to be?

[lemonlime 5,503]

10 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

We are much more similar to Syria now than we’d all like to admit. But that is mainly because of who currently runs the US government. If we can get to a Biden presidency, things will change and the situation will be much more stable. 

Since there’s a chance that our situation will improve for the better in 6 months without the need to fight a civil war, that seems the much smarter path. Keep a cool head, vote, and support a peaceful transition of power. If that doesn’t work, then we’re no worse off than before and we at least know that a civil war was unavoidable. But we should do everything possible to avoid a conflict now, because the surest way to guarantee that Trump stays in office is civil war. And a civil war with Trump in charge of the US military is the end of the Republic, probably forever.

We aren't getting to a Biden presidency.  We had our last free and fair presidential election.  I'm just not sure whether that was in 2016 or 2012.

I'm also not sure the end of the republic is a bad thing.  The republic is controlled by a collective of fascists, bigots, and morons.

Edit to add: We should have had protests in the street in 2017 and 2018.  It's too late now to save things.  Those moms who are showing up in Portland, as well as the rest of us, should have been out there for kids in cages, Puerto Rico, etc.  

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by lemonlime

[Brisketexan 105,266]

5 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

We are much more similar to Syria now than we’d all like to admit. But that is mainly because of who currently runs the US government. If we can get to a Biden presidency, things will change and the situation will be much more stable. 

Since there’s a chance that our situation will improve for the better in 6 months without the need to fight a civil war, that seems the much smarter path. Keep a cool head, vote, and support a peaceful transition of power. If that doesn’t work, then we’re no worse off than before and we at least know that a civil war was unavoidable. But we should do everything possible to avoid a conflict now, because the surest way to guarantee that Trump stays in office is civil war. And a civil war with Trump in charge of the US military is the end of the Republic, probably forever.

Balance that against this: to allow irregular paramilitary forces loyal to the regime and not the law to run roughshod over the people gives them the green light to up the ante, and do even worse during the election.

When armed troops loyal to the regime intimidate and detain people at and near the polls in battleground states, your free and fair election is a pipe dream.  The war you fear has already started.  Your Neville Chamberlain dreams are just that.  Knowing that, we need to focus on the things that can help win it.  Ensuring the loyalty of military commanders to the Constitution.  Using the courts.  Using local authorities and resources.  And forcing the regime to commit its crimes against the people in the light of day,, now, when it can help turn the tide of public opinion to a point that the repression and intimidation at the polls won't be enough to secure a win for them.

[F250 28,814]

49 minutes ago, Goredho said:

I think @F250 originally posted about the SRA, but its time people start preparing themselves to fight for the country they want to live in.

 

Yeah that was a while back. I know a guy that is in one of the chapters. The organization seems to have matured over the past couple of years. The dude I know currently is a protest medic and has been involved in a lot of the shit that has been going down lately. Young guy that was heavily involved in the hacking community turned left wing militia member and Bernie Bro. He actually left a good paying job in Silicon Valley to do this full time. Does a lot of crypto currency stuff too. Initially I thought it was nuts but it's pretty admirable. Definitely stuff meant for younger people.

Funny thing is I remember having beers and discussing guns with him when he was very big on gun control.

[lemonlime 5,503]

So apparently to the Trump right, taking 14-year-olds to what are supposed to be peaceful protests amounts to child abuse, but sending 18-year-olds to Afghanistan to be killed by the Taliban who was paid by the Russians, is A-Ok.