Trump’s Gestapo in Portland

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Because it was never about any of that.

It was about one thing.  And one thing only.  Obama had the unmitigated gall to be black.

It was about one thing but the addendum to that one thing is that minorities, women, and anyone who joins them don't deserve equal rights under the law.

The folks who have no quarrel with the abuse now were forced into victimhood by the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and their incivility ever since has been legion.

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because it was never about any of that.

It was about one thing.  And one thing only.  Obama had the unmitigated gall to be black.

Well that and the whole tan suit and mustard thing. Never forget the tan suit scandal. Republicans won’t. 

[hpslugga 4047]

50 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

"Anarchy"

Which, incidentally, is yet another one of those buzzwords that people of veerbone’s ilk couldn’t define to save his own ass.

[Brisketexan 104663]

7 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Which, incidentally, is yet another one of those buzzwords that people of veerbone’s ilk couldn’t define to save his own ass.

It's defined as lawlessness.  And it's absolutely happening in Portland....just not by the actors he thinks.  A loose bunch of tens of thousands of protesters has some people within it who are lawless.  A cadre of paramilitary irregulars are acting under systematic orders to violate the law and deprive people of their constitutional rights.  That's anarchy.  And it's dangerous as fuck.  When the forces of the law act as if they are ABOVE the law, that's 1,000 times more dangerous than a random citizen doing so.

Every accusation is a confession.

[Bama Chick 28596]

And this patriot is a bit older than I realized.



He’s a total badass.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

6 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

And this patriot is a bit older than I realized.


He’s a total badass.

Lot more badass to defend the Constitution in the streets of America than shouting "White Power" from a golf cart.

[UTGrad98 2259]

I want a list of every city where this bullshit happens. Then I want to make trump do a "shame" walk ala Cersei in GoT in each one starting in portland on January 21st.  I really think that would be his greatest fear. Prison will do him no good. I want fucking "shame" walks.

[lemonlime 5503]

1 hour ago, Veerbone said:

I see you’ve joined your partner with the emotional outburst issues.

Scroll up for my thoughts on unlawful abuse by authorities.   

Oh, no.  Not emotions!  You act like it's an insult that I'm offended that secret, federal police are arresting kidnapping protestors, something you're okay with.  

[hpslugga 4047]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's defined as lawlessness.  And it's absolutely happening in Portland....just not by the actors he thinks.  A loose bunch of tens of thousands of protesters has some people within it who are lawless.  A cadre of paramilitary irregulars are acting under systematic orders to violate the law and deprive people of their constitutional rights.  That's anarchy.  And it's dangerous as fuck.  When the forces of the law act as if they are ABOVE the law, that's 1,000 times more dangerous than a random citizen doing so.

Every accusation is a confession.

Well what you’re describing is happening in Portland, but that’s not anarchy.

Anarchy simply means “without rulers.” There’s a huge distinction between “without rulers” and “without rules,” the latter of which is actually favored by very few actual anarchists. As someone who’s been one for the past 13 years, I would definitely know. 

But yes, what’s happening in Portland is a gigantic shit show and to favor it is to display a level of moral depravity that goes well beyond the darkest scenes in Deliverance.

[Nivek 16864]

$6M in property damages doesn’t reflect that statement.  

Hello new troll. Goodbye.

[Brisketexan 104663]

And this patriot is a bit older than I realized.



He’s a total badass.

He IS the Constitution. It’s only as strong as those who will stand up for it.

[Nivek 16864]

Nvm

[hpslugga 4047]

Just now, Judge Roybeanbag said:

He could certainly brag on the crowd size then.  Way bigger than inauguration.

He would also crow how much bigger his dick is than Cersei’s

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

22 minutes ago, UTGrad98 said:

I want a list of every city where this bullshit happens. Then I want to make trump do a "shame" walk ala Cersei in GoT in each one starting in portland on January 21st.  I really think that would be his greatest fear. Prison will do him no good. I want fucking "shame" walks.

He could certainly brag on the crowd size then.  Way bigger than inauguration.

[Bevo14 8275]

1 minute ago, hpslugga said:

He would also crow how much bigger his dick is than Cersei’s

despite it being a tie

[workswithseed 2037]

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Because you're part of a community and community members help out other community members when they need it.

Because you're not a completely self-centered jerk who only cares about himself and doesn't care about his neighbors.

Because you have taken from your community and should therefore give back to your community. 

Because you should restore the damage-causers with a spirit of gentleness. Even carry their burdens, and in so doing you can fulfill the Law of Christ.

Basically you should cover it because "covering this" is one of the main messages of the Bible.

Good luck!

Also why shouldn't I be taxed 100% then? If it it's the main message of the Bible.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13552]

Showing feelings of an almost human nature

This will not do...

[Homercles 10205]

Oh look yet another either recently activated account or an old one with no history that leaps into intense political discussions, poo flinging and asking questions.  

[staboner 4959]

why do you guys continue to engage with trolls? 

why do i continue to ask that same question over and over again? 

even if they aren't trolls - then they are the enemy. why even bother trying to engage? you need to beat them, not rationalise with them. 

 

[bad_teammate 13133]

Cops looting in Ohio.

 

[Yuk 1509]

Must be a Never Trumper...

 

[Bookman 4611]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Well that and the whole tan suit and mustard thing. Never forget the tan suit scandal. Republicans won’t. 

Don't forget he put his feet on the desk once, too.

[Skyline 325]

Proactive arrest! You can't make this stuff up. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13552]

47 minutes ago, staboner said:

why do you guys continue to engage with trolls? 

why do i continue to ask that same question over and over again? 

even if they aren't trolls - then they are the enemy. why even bother trying to engage? you need to beat them, not rationalise with them. 

 

Engaging trolls is less trying to convince them and more demonstrating to less-engaged lurkers and fence straddlers who makes the most salient points. QAnon batshit doesn't happen in a vacuum, but eventually is made possible with 3 decades-worth of Rush acing debate solitaire indoctrination.

[Celery Man 20888]

I sometimes think that there should be overview on how people feel about posters and thier posting styles, and how they could be better posters. 

Meant in good faith, and fairly speculative on my part based a little on what I know about you and a lot on what I know about myself and how my thinking has evolved over the years - I bet you haven’t spent a whole ton of time interacting closely with people that are really different from you and have very different backgrounds and support systems. If you see an opportunity to do so you should take it.

A big transformative experience for me was bottoming out and going to rehab. For an obvious number of reasons. An important of which was spending a lot of time in rooms with people who were all different types and still in the same place. The pro football player, the real estate mogul, the Okie farmer, the west Texas roughneck, the Thundercloud girl, the hooker, the wide eyed filmmaker kid from Laredo, the dishwasher, all busted ass alcoholics and humans at the very bottom of it. I’m going off on a big long tangent, but seeing an adult digging through couch cushions looking for money because he’s out and finding cash is the only way he’s going to ride the bus. And I’m smarter than him but not by that much and maybe the stability and institutional understanding I was raised in really does make that much of a difference over the chaos that has characterized his life since birth.

Big long tangent and really a different thing than you raised, but being up close with different people and particularly less fortunate people shifted my views a lot and I’m better for it.

[Brisketexan 104663]

Proactive arrest! You can't make this stuff up. 

The Department of Futurecrime...and hey, it’s just a coincidence that all of the future criminals they arrest just happen to be members of the political opposition.
Also, that interview is going to be a great piece of evidence in the Oregon AG’s suit against the DHS. I mean...he just admitted to an orchestrated program of arrests without probable cause, in proud violation of the 4th amendment.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23362]

[bad_teammate 13133]

I genuinely think that dude doesn't know what "proactive" means. These people are a bottomless well of stupidity.

[HRSchenker 2259]

4 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

You don’t see this as protesting?
So that damage makes it ok for federal agents to randomly arrest people? 
What you’re saying is that you don’t support Americans rights to protest. You can dress it up however you’d like but you are excusing blatant fascism because there property damage

I love how you're reducing the attempted burning of a federal building with people inside as "property damage". I am so blown away by how many people are saying that the Portland protests are peaceful yet so many people on the ground are reporting the exact opposite. Almost to the point where just saying "peaceful protest" blows your credibility. That's not an excuse for "proactive arrests" or whatever the hell that means. At some point we need to stop lying to ourselves and each other.

[bad_teammate 13133]

2 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

I love how you're reducing the attempted burning of a federal building with people inside as "property damage".

Do you have evidence of an attempted burning with people inside?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that's a very big claim.

Quote

I am so blown away by how many people are saying that the Portland protests are peaceful yet so many people on the ground are reporting the exact opposite. Almost to the point where just saying "peaceful protest" blows your credibility.

If 10,000 people are out demonstrating and 20 people do something non-peaceful, does that mean the whole protest is now violent/not peaceful?

[hpslugga 4047]

1 hour ago, Bookman said:

Don't forget he put his feet on the desk once, too.

And saluted with coffee in his hand

[HRSchenker 2259]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you have evidence of an attempted burning with people inside?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that's a very big claim.

If 10,000 people are out demonstrating and 20 people do something non-peaceful, does that mean the whole protest is now violent/not peaceful?

 

[hpslugga 4047]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you have evidence of an attempted burning with people inside?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that's a very big claim.

If 10,000 people are out demonstrating and 20 people do something non-peaceful, does that mean the whole protest is now violent/not peaceful?

That’s the one thing they will not say. They will not admit that their logic is so warped and beyond reality that if any 1 of 10,000 does more than stand perfectly still with a sign that has no profanity, that apparently either negates the entire legitimacy of the protests or puts their actions on the level of fucking secret police.

This is exactly how US propaganda works relative to the Israel situation. The government and its alleged supporters LOVE to critique every fucking thing the Palestinians and Hamas do to resist the occupation, but the one thing they won’t say is that they have an obligation to walk outside with hands raised and line up like ducks. 

And they wonder why we refer to such sycophants as bootlickers. 

[Rougarou 594]

My brain is so toxic and warped and patriarchal white-privilege-history-learned and horrible that I can only see the thread title as Gestapo in Poland. Seriously, it trips me up every time I leave and come back and glance at it. Something about an invasion ~80 years ago I guess.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Rougarou

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11668]

This stuff is giving me a new appreciation for strong arm tactics.   I’ve wondered before why some heads of state use them.  Like, why do they really even care to snuff out disruptive actions? It always seemed to me that it was a bit of a stretch that self absorbed leaders 1000 miles away would give two shits that (for instance) gay people were getting married on the other side of the country, such that they’d go through the effort of having roving bands cracking skulls.   It implied a level of concern about the country — even if misguided — I didn’t really think they had. It always struck me as dubious.

And this is showing a new angle to me. I bet that they do it despite not caring about the country.  They do it because their base of support loves them for it.  The leaders don’t really care about the action, but the base does.  The leader cares about the applause.  And the base just likes seeing people attacking their enemies. 

[Dahobbs 17450]

44 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

 

I watched your videos. Honestly, they aren't long enough and there isn't enough context to have any idea what is going on in most of them. One does appear to show attempted in arson, and I would have no issue with arresting that person. 

I don't think anyone doubts that there have been some criminal acts by those that would describe themselves as protestors. But that fact doesn't give the government carte blanche to detain, arrest, or beat everyone in the general area. Nor does it change the fact the vast majority of the protests and protestors are peaceful.  

[Dahobbs 17450]

I'll also add, you don't get to escalate a fight and then complain when the other guy acts in kind. That's what the government did here with entirely predictable results. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Beau Vine 54008]

Not sure if anyone is familiar with Radley Balko but he has been banging on this drum years before it was something people wanted to talk about. Actually this entire topic is in the Libertarian wheelhouse and pretty much the meat and potatoes of Libertarianism for fucking ever. I doubt a month has passed in the past 20 years where Reason or Cato has not dropped an article on Prison reform, drug war, militarization of the police CJR, immigration, ICE, DHS, Patriot Act, etc...
For those new to the passion about law enforcement abuse but criticize Libertarians, you are like a person who discovered salads and want to smugly look down on vegetarians because they eat fish.
Progressives have been all over this forever too but moderates and centrists not so much. This abuse in Portland happened through the justification of the bipartisan support of the Homeland Security Act, thanks a lot Biden. Bernie being cool was against it of course.
 
To centrist and moderates fuck you, not progressives, y'all are cool.

What would Libertarians have done about Covid?

[Beau Vine 54008]

I'll bet he can kick Jim Jordan's ass. Let's arrange a match. 

How about a handicap cage match against Jordan and Cruz?

[F250 28699]

7 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

 

What’s interesting is that the line you cross into being “odd” is on the other side of believing in an invisible man who has a zombie son and is omnipotent but still has low enough self esteem that he condemns you to hell if you don’t submit to him absolutely. That’s the normal side of the line.

 

No, not interesting at all.

[Nivek 16864]

Why do right-wingers care more about property than human lives and injuries to people?

Why cant they see the restraint shown by the protestors is admirable? Why cannot they see that the protesters are held to a higher standard than the police and the gestapo?

[F250 28699]

16 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

On 7/19/2020 at 3:27 PM, F250 said:

Not sure if anyone is familiar with Radley Balko but he has been banging on this drum years before it was something people wanted to talk about. Actually this entire topic is in the Libertarian wheelhouse and pretty much the meat and potatoes of Libertarianism for fucking ever. I doubt a month has passed in the past 20 years where Reason or Cato has not dropped an article on Prison reform, drug war, militarization of the police CJR, immigration, ICE, DHS, Patriot Act, etc...
For those new to the passion about law enforcement abuse but criticize Libertarians, you are like a person who discovered salads and want to smugly look down on vegetarians because they eat fish.
Progressives have been all over this forever too but moderates and centrists not so much. This abuse in Portland happened through the justification of the bipartisan support of the Homeland Security Act, thanks a lot Biden. Bernie being cool was against it of course.
 
To centrist and moderates fuck you, not progressives, y'all are cool.

Read more  

What would Libertarians have done about Covid?

A pandemic falls into the same  category as a foreign invasion. The taxes paid to the federal government require a response. This was discussed months ago, masks, SiP, etc.. deal with risk transference. While an individual has the right to put themselves at risk they don't have a right to transfer that risk to others. Similar to abusing cocaine vs antibiotics. One harms the individual the other puts others at risk.

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you have evidence of an attempted burning with people inside?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but that's a very big claim.

If 10,000 people are out demonstrating and 20 people do something non-peaceful, does that mean the whole protest is now violent/not peaceful?

You are probably talking to someone that thought all Muslims needed to die for 911.  Collective punishment for individual acts has been the fascist calling card for centuries. 

Its easy to use that tactic against a peaceful populist uprising as well.  People are people.  A percentage have mental illnesses.  Others will join a group just because they want to cause problems.  If 20,000 people are doing something, you can be sure that some of them are going to actually be up to no good, and some others will be legitimately mentally ill.  Even if a handful of assholes actually tried to murder some people in a federal building (didn't happen), that doesn't mean that other protesters are complicit.

Yankee Stadium holds 54,000 fans.  They host 81 home games a year.   Police are on scene at every single game and multiple arrests occur at every single game.  Yet nobody blames all fans collectively.  Most of them were there to watch the game and not to start a brawl in the stands.

Edited July 22, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

@HRSchenker
If a protester among the many protesters present breaks the law, then a properly authorized and identified official has the authority to arrest the individual. I don’t take issue with that. 

I will add that you may find it helpful to vet your sources, however. 
The first person, (Farley), while having the tag ‘media’ in his account is a journalist similar to Andy Ngo in that he has aligned himself (perhaps further than Ngo even) with far right groups, including those labeled as hate groups. His arrest (assault IIRC) at an Antifa counterprotest against a KKK rally in Portland was among a series of provocative actions that included harassing and doxxing a 10 year old child, threatening a Portland resident by suggesting a callout to Atomwaffen for retribution, and being aligned with Patriot Prayer (a far right group) at events designed to escalate aggression and harass peaceful protesters in Portland. IOW, he has a history. 

The other sources may or may not be similar, I didn’t scope them, it was more to say that there are biases and agendas out there of which we should all be aware. 
 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Mrs Whiggins
Edit number two: and integrity among some people who are self styled journalists is not always a ‘thing.’

[staboner 4959]

12 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Why do right-wingers care more about property than human lives and injuries to people?

Why cant they see the restraint shown by the protestors is admirable? Why cannot they see that the protesters are held to a higher standard than the police and the gestapo?

because they are rightwingers

[FondrenRoad 4378]

 

15 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Why do right-wingers care more about property than human lives and injuries to people?

Why cant they see the restraint shown by the protestors is admirable? Why cannot they see that the protesters are held to a higher standard than the police and the gestapo?

 

Its all they ever cared about since this country was founded.  They'd rather have property vote than people.  In the past, they would have possibly considered allowing property to vote based on value, but not anymore.  Have you seen Manhattan land values?  Now they'd prefer that property vote by the acre with value not being a consideration.  Manhattan is tiny.  Also, renters don't get to vote.  Property owners only.  If you rent, your landlord votes for the land you live on.

Edited July 22, 2020 by FondrenRoad

[workswithseed 2037]

 

 

 

 

 

 

This picture is where the elk was burned, and now there is only a piñata

 

 

 

 

I got a fist bump for my shirt.

Edited July 22, 2020 by workswithseed

[FondrenRoad 4378]

6 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This picture is where the elk was burned, and now there is only a piñata

 

 

 

 

I got a fist bump for my shirt.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you actually there?

[Bama Chick 28596]

Great information on why these stormtroopers are dangerous and stupid.

Today on TV, the Deputy Director of the federal paramilitary force in #PDX discussed the infamous van video. He described a textbook example of an unconstitutional arrest.

But... he doesn’t seem to know it.

That is a BIG PROBLEM. Let’s unpack this. It’s important.

And here's the press conference, in which a reporter (at 35:02) asks @DHS_Wolf "what level of probable cause are you getting" in these encounters? Wolf turns it over to Kris Cline, Deputy Director of the Federal Protective Service.

Cline says "you're probably talking about the van," and goes on to give the government's account of what happened.

The agents, Cline says, were interested in the man in the video because, earlier, they'd seen him "in a crowd and in an area" where someone ELSE was aiming a laser at the eyes of officers.

I don’t know if shining a laser at someone is a federal crime.

It doesn’t matter.

The police do not have probable cause to arrest you just because you are standing near someone else who may have committed a crime.

We’ve all heard the saying that people shouldn’t be treated as “guilty by association.” Well, that’s also the law. To wit, Ybarra v. Illinois, 444 U.S. 85, 91 (1979).

Cline goes on to say that the agents followed the man in the video—whom they had no basis to arrest—to a calmer location, away from the courthouse, because they wanted to question him.
So far as the Fourth Amendment goes, if that’s all they’d actually done, there wouldn’t be an issue. The police are allowed to walk up to you and question you, in a “consensual” encounter, so long as a reasonable person in your shoes would think it's ok for you to walk away.

(Side note: These encounters often don’t feel consensual in the moment, even though a court will often deem them consensual as a legal matter after the fact. That’s a problem for another day.)

Maybe these agents planned to execute one of those “consensual” encounters, maybe not. But in any event, Cline admits—and the video is clear—that they did something very different: they forcibly removed the man from the scene.
Again, not because of anything he did.

According to Cline, the agents grabbed the man because they saw *other* people coming toward them and felt unsafe.
They wanted to leave. They didn’t want to let him leave. So they grabbed him and put him in a van and took him, in Cline's words, "to an area that was safe for both the officers and the individual to do the questioning."

Cline doesn't say explicitly where they took the man. But we know from other reporting that another person taken off the street in similar fashion, Mark Pettibone, was taken inside the federal courthouse.

Federal law enforcement officers have been using unmarked vehicles to drive around downtown Portland and detain protesters since at least July 14. Personal accounts and multiple videos posted online …

https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/

And Cline does explicitly say that the man he is describing (the man from the van video) was questioned for approximately 20 minutes -- something unlikely to have happened out on the street, given the agents' apparent fear of the surrounding crowd.

And then, after those ~20 minutes, the agents "released the individual." Why? Well, let's let Cline explain:

"They released the individual because they did not have what they needed."
Translation: They did not have probable cause.

(Note how this plays out. Eventually, government lawyers show up and apparently say to the agents -- you gotta let this guy go, you have no lawful basis to detain him.)

Ok. Those are the facts, according to the Deputy Director of the federal police force deployed in Portland (and, apparently coming to a city “lead by Democrats” near you).

As far as the Fourth Amendments goes, there's two important points here:

1. Cline admits the agents NEVER had probable cause to arrest this person. That’s why they let him go. They didn't have probable cause when the lawyers showed up. They didn't have probable cause when they put the man in the van. They never had it. And they aren't saying they did.

2. This man was arrested.

This isn’t one of those law school exam types of cases where you’re supposed to say “Well, *maybe* he was arrested.”

This is one of those bar exam types of cases where they ask you “Was this an arrest? (A) Yes (B) No.”

The answer is yes.

To wit, Dunaway v. New York, 442 U.S. 200 (1979), where the Supreme Court considered whether the police violated the Fourth Amendment when, without probable cause, they took someone "into custody, transported him to the police station, and detained him there for interrogation."

The answer is yes.

Just as in Dunaway, this man was "taken" from the street "where he was found," put into "a police car" (sorta), "transported to a police station" (inside the courthouse), "and placed in an interrogation room," where he was questioned.

That is an arrest. Period.
(See also Hayes v. Florida, 470 U.S. 811, 815 (1984))

So.... the most troubling part of Cline's statement is NOT when he acknowledges the lack of probable cause.

It's when he says that this "simple engagement" was perfectly constitutional because "it's not a custodial arrest."

That statement is glaringly wrong.
It's been wrong since at least 1979.

Let that sink in.

The person in charge of this newly beefed up, paramilitary federal police force DOES NOT KNOW WHAT AN ARREST IS.

That means he doesn’t know when he or his officers are committing one... illegally.

In violation of the Fourth Amendment.

Like they unquestionably did here.

Look, you can’t possibly conduct arrests lawfully if you don’t know your conducting them in the first place.

And if the Deputy Director of this new federal force will say on national TV that what these officers did was legal because "this wasn't an arrest," that raises serious concerns about what his officers are doing out on the street. When the cameras are on, and when they’re not.

That's it.

Link to the thread if you want to see the videos.

These actions also confirm my belief that Border Patrol is a shitty bunch that needs reforms at least, abolishment possibly.

The way they are acting on the streets of Portland confirms to me they do this kind of thing (kidnapping, detaining, beating) all the time.

[workswithseed 2037]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but are you actually there?

Yeah, I was. I have to go to work at 5:30 am and I'm not going to stay all night. I was there with the gf for a hour just now.