Trump’s Gestapo in Portland

[wildcat09 29347]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The fact that the entire focus on anything wrong, anything bad, that has happened in the last several months, is "those BLM assholes".....with effective passes being given to cops who start this shit, cops who shoot peaceful protesters in the face, and white nationalist agitators who show up to commit mayhem, doesn't go unnoticed.

You are very, very, very concerned about BLM.  But the broken fucking police system that leads to this unrest, and the violent racist pieces of shit who capitalize on it, well....yeah.

You don't realize that you're just singing a song that was played to death in the 1960s.  The Civil Rights movement faced the exact same attacks and criticisms then.  For the same reason -- shut up, you're making us uncomfortable.  And notably, the brutal white attacks on black people...well, those weren't "civil unrest and thugs," that was just good old "law and order."  The same song, in perfect harmony.

[Celery Man 20933]

I think there are a lot of people that are frighteningly adept practiced at handling their cognitive dissonance by completely rejecting conflicting evidence, lying about what they are saying, incorporating their new lie into their set of core beliefs, and blaming the other person as dishonest for presenting information that runs counter to what they know to be true. We've seen this on this board recently. I don't think that workswithseed is that guy or is that guy yet, although I very much disagree with his perspective on things.

[Rougarou 594]

So anyways, BT, I stand by white allyship being broken because white people are polluted with ego (and obviously this touches a raw nerve for you and perhaps hits close to home?) so you respond with a weird "What about...MAGA folks?". 

MAGA sucks and in this instance are NOT allys.

My whole point was that we should let BLM and Black people and leaders tell us what they want from us and what they need from us to help them. If they want riots because they are the voice of the unheard we should let them riot and pay the penalties for being heard by way of the laws on the books for such things as arson, looting, rioting, etc. If they want white people to engage in riots with them and bring a bigger ability to create destruction, then so be it. I'm just not hearing that, but the opposite which is the post I quoted. 

All that said, to be fair, I'm not in the BLM riot planning meetings so I'm not sure if a raven was sent to the Bad_teammate chain of command in Plano, Texas to call for back-ups or not. If those calls are being made, then who am I to sit in judgment of their strategy and execution? That's being racist.

20 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

This seems to be the crux of the problem right now. White people, on both sides, co-opting BLM/black activists into their own agenda. It's sickening but not surprising. It's how America and American whites have always treated blacks, as if they can't be trusted with their own agency or to lead with their own vision.

The root problem is white people don't know how to be allys and the concept of allyship is broken. They are the Type-A, "I want to be in control or you aren't doing it right" type project manager.

 

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What about the white folks who load up their MAGA gear and weapons and violently careen through town?  Patriots, I guess.

13 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

No, those guys are the worst for also co-opting this movement and moment. But it's hilarious you committed the most literal "whataboutism" this side of Onboard and his Hillary Clinton fetish. You two deny it, but we all know you enjoy the same King size bed of logic.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Rougarou

[Brisketexan 105081]

Just now, Rougarou said:

My whole point was that we should let BLM and Black people and leaders tell us what they want from us and what they need from us to help them.

Agreed 100%.  And I've agreed with that from the get-go.  My personal efforts with respect to the movement have done just that -- I am following the lead of the people with a vested interest, not creating a new path and telling them what to do.  I don't tend to talk about that here, because it doesn't fucking matter.

Yet you put all responsibility for the current state of unrest on one side of the equation, and it just so happens to be the side that DOESN'T benefit from the unrest.  There's one political agenda that is making as much hay as possible from the current unrest -- it serves their purposes, and they fucking LOVE it.  Yet THOSE WHO BENEFIT are tasked with zero responsibility or obligations.  "Yeah, those guys are bad.....whatever....let's get back to shitting on the BLM side of things."

That's what fucking pisses me off.  Our country is in major civil unrest, and the only responsibility, and the only call to action....falls on BLM.  Chapter 1,000 in the book of "you black folks need to solve your own problems before you expect any of us to agree with you or help."  Which has always resulted in "nope, you didn't solve everything, you're on your own."

[Rougarou 594]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet you put all responsibility for the current state of unrest on one side of the equation, and it just so happens to be the side that DOESN'T benefit from the unrest.  There's one political agenda that is making as much hay as possible from the current unrest -- it serves their purposes, and they fucking LOVE it.  Yet THOSE WHO B

I think the reason is because the discrete cause of all the mayhem is usually a singular, static event in time that happened and then is over. The cop murderer has murdered and the son/brother/father is dead. That's easy to conceptualize as a one-time tragedy. What we don't see or think about it is the racism and anti-blackpeople in Americanism that exists as the vapor in the air that helped to cause this tragedy and which continues to waft.

The looting, rioting and mayhem and onesy-twosy deaths that seem to happen when you get a couple of idiots together participating in emotional hysteria, seems to be more dynamic and ongoing. It's continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD).

Both sides are to blame for the current state of unrest and craziness. One side shouldn't be free from blame because it's in the past and drowned out by the other sides response. But also the original victims don't get carte blanche to become transgressors in their own right either, by virtue of being victims. Before you embark on a journey for revenge, dig two graves.

[Brisketexan 105081]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

I think the reason is because the discrete cause of all the mayhem is usually a singular, static event in time that happened and then is over. The cop murderer has murdered and the son/brother/father is dead. That's easy to conceptualize as a one-time tragedy. What we don't see or think about it is the racism and anti-blackpeople in Americanism that exists as the vapor in the air that helped to cause this tragedy and which continues to waft.

The looting, rioting and mayhem and onesy-twosy deaths that seem to happen when you get a couple of idiots together participating in emotional hysteria, seems to be more dynamic and ongoing. It's continuous integration/continuous delivery (CI/CD).

Both sides are to blame for the current state of unrest and craziness. One side shouldn't be free from blame because it's in the past and drowned out by the other sides response. But also the original victims don't get carte blanche to become transgressors in their own right either, by virtue of being victims. Before you embark on a journey for revenge, dig two graves.

And before you embark on a journey for justice in this country.....don't bother, go home.  You can't kneel, you can't march, you can't do anything that is acceptable.  So just stay home, shut up, and take it.

We don't see the systemic racism because we don't want to, because it makes us uncomfortable.  So, shove it in a separate room and lock the door.

[Rougarou 594]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And before you embark on a journey for justice in this country.....don't bother, go home.  You can't kneel, you can't march, you can't do anything that is acceptable.  So just stay home, shut up, and take it.

We don't see the systemic racism because we don't want to, because it makes us uncomfortable.  So, shove it in a separate room and lock the door.

I think you are arguing or conflating the ability to do something with the efficacy of doing something. Essentially the gripe is in not getting results or not getting results as fast as you think is acceptable.

My whole point is, let BLM and black people do whatever they collectively think is necessary and agreed upon. Let them accept the benefits (change, advancement, etc.) and the consequences (legal consequences, failures, etc.) and let us white folk help them in a way that does not usurp the cause into our own warped agendas (MAGA losers, All lives matter, etc.) and doesn't hurt the chance for change (antifa losers and rioters causing mayhem and negative public perception, etc.).

Edited August 31, 2020 by Rougarou

[Brisketexan 105081]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

and let us white folk help them in a way that does not usurp the cause into our own warped agendas

I don't disagree with that fantasy, except for the fact that it's a fantasy -- we the people won't help.  The folks who matter most -- the people in power and such -- don't want to help.  We just want them to STFU.  Same as always.

[DDD Dad 14329]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We don't see the systemic racism because we don't want to, because it makes us uncomfortable.  So, shove it in a separate room and lock the door.

Sen. Cornyn has assured me that there is no systemic racism in America.

Edited August 31, 2020 by DDD Dad

[Rougarou 594]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't disagree with that fantasy, except for the fact that it's a fantasy -- we the people won't help.  The folks who matter most -- the people in power and such -- don't want to help.  We just want them to STFU.  Same as always.

Breaking: Status quo resists change; this and more breaking news at 9!

Joking aside, we know that the people in power and such don't want to help. That doesn't mean that black people and BLM shouldn't continue to strive for change and that certainly isn't an excuse to just do whatever you want and think will be helpful to black people and BLM without their consent or approval. If that is what's happening with white people rioting in the name of BLM and making it look bad and stunting the momentum and force of change for the better (which is what I was originally responding to and what others have posted is happening), then that is bad allyship-- it's vain and racist (in the sense that you are presupposing what is best for them because they don't know themselves or cannot do for themselves).

If black people and BLM are asking for and wanting the help to riot and be heard, then I see no problem in allyship.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Rougarou

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20393]

From Politico:  They tried to get Trump to care about right-wing terrorism. He ignored them. Now we reap what he has sown.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/26/trump-domestic-extemism-homeland-security-401926




 

[Brisketexan 105081]

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Breaking: Status quo resists change; this and more breaking news at 9!

Joking aside, we know that the people in power and such don't want to help. That doesn't mean that black people and BLM shouldn't continue to strive for change and that certainly isn't an excuse to just do whatever you want and think will be helpful to black people and BLM without their consent or approval. If that is what's happening with white people rioting in the name of BLM and making it look bad and stunting the momentum and force of change for the better (which is what I was originally responding to and what others have posted is happening), then that is bad allyship-- it's vain and racist (in the sense that you are presupposing what is best for them because they don't know themselves or cannot do for themselves). If black people and BLM are asking for and wanting the help to riot and be heard, then I see no problem in allyship.

Don't disagree with the bolded.  There are some white people who are acting like self-absorbed assholes, out wrecking shit for their own reasons.  But that's not really lamented by our power structure, it's WELCOMED.  Because it lets us do what we've wanted to do all along -- say "whew, now I can say that the movement is illegitimate, and I don't have to listen to them."

You still don't get that in the end, none of that shit matters if the REAL issue is that we really just want black people to STFU, don't march, don't kneel, just take it and quit your bitching.  Which is what we want.  Complaining about the violence is a convenient and WELCOME excuse to do what we always wanted to do -- ignore BLM and tell them to STFU.  Just like we complained about kneeling.  And about NBA players walking off the court.  The message is crystal clear -- there's nothing that black people can do that will be an acceptable means of stating their grievances.

BLM and black people can "continue to strive for change," but it won't fucking matter, because we've put so much effort into ensuring that it doesn't matter.  We've determined that their voices are irrelevant already.

[Rougarou 594]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Don't disagree with the bolded.  There are some white people who are acting like self-absorbed assholes, out wrecking shit for their own reasons.  But that's not really lamented by our power structure, it's WELCOMED.  Because it lets us do what we've wanted to do all along -- say "whew, now I can say that the movement is illegitimate, and I don't have to listen to them."

You still don't get that in the end, none of that shit matters if the REAL issue is that we really just want black people to STFU, don't march, don't kneel, just take it and quit your bitching.  Which is what we want.  Complaining about the violence is a convenient and WELCOME excuse to do what we always wanted to do -- ignore BLM and tell them to STFU.  Just like we complained about kneeling.  And about NBA players walking off the court.  The message is crystal clear -- there's nothing that black people can do that will be an acceptable means of stating their grievances.

BLM and black people can "continue to strive for change," but it won't fucking matter, because we've put so much effort into ensuring that it doesn't matter.  We've determined that their voices are irrelevant already.

In my opinion, I think what you just described is the "million dollar problem". And big problems need big leaders with innovative and creative, radical and daring ideas and execution.

It's clear that kneeling doesn't work as you say. It also looks like riots and mayhem is unsustainable and a loser, over time, politically as people are already starting to be fatigued by the destruction (and haven't really gotten the bill for it yet, either). SO WHAT DOES WORK? That is the million dollar question.

We all-- black, white, everyone-- need the next strong black leader yesterday. I can't even think of the last great one-- Jesse Jackson? Do we really have to go as far back as MLK? I'm surprised that someone like Killer Mike hasn't stepped up to be the figurehead and ambassador for black change with his success with Bernie, etc.

[NWBuck 8552]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

This seems to be the crux of the problem right now. White people, on both sides, co-opting BLM/black activists into their own agenda. It's sickening but not surprising. It's how America and American whites have always treated blacks, as if they can't be trusted with their own agency or to lead with their own vision.

The root problem is white people don't know how to be allys and the concept of allyship is broken. They are the Type-A, "I want to be in control or you aren't doing it right" type project manager.

Well, given that whiteness exists to create and maintain a false power dichotomy, this really can't be surprising...

[Rougarou 594]

2 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

Well, given that whiteness exists to create and maintain a false power dichotomy, this really can't be surprising...

The bolded feels...problematic, at best. I want to be with you on these things, NWBuck, I really do, but let's not get crazy.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Rougarou

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

If the left wing is in favor of big government, the right wing is in favor of small government, and anarchists are in favor of no government, wouldn't that make anarchists a far-right extremist group?

[fattyflattie 4639]

45 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

We all-- black, white, everyone-- need the next strong black leader yesterday. I can't even think of the last great one-- Jesse Jackson? Do we really have to go as far back as MLK?

Looking forward to hearing how this is also the fault of white Americans. 
 

Why couldn’t Obama have helped in that role?  Literally the most powerful man in the world for a stint. 

[UpperWestside 6161]

11 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If the left wing is in favor of big government, the right wing is in favor of small government, and anarchists are in favor of no government, wouldn't that make anarchists a far-right extremist group?

I would say they are crazy too. Maninblack shows their mindset pretty well. 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13578]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Don't forget BLM is Marxist, too.

 

[Brisketexan 105081]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

SO WHAT DOES WORK? That is the million dollar question.

We all-- black, white, everyone-- need the next strong black leader yesterday. I can't even think of the last great one-- Jesse Jackson? Do we really have to go as far back as MLK? I'm surprised that someone like Killer Mike hasn't stepped up to be the figurehead and ambassador for black change with his success with Bernie, etc.

Pssst.....here's the answer to your million dollar question: nothing.  Nothing works, because we -- the people in power who control this society -- won't let it.  It is a rule of humanity -- save violent rebellion to change the status quo, the minority has precisely the power and the voice that the majority grants them.  No more, and no less.

Where's a strong leader?  There wont and can't be one.  Because those in power de-legitimize every potential threatening voice before it gathers any significant power.  Shit, see FF's question:

32 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Why couldn’t Obama have helped in that role?  Literally the most powerful man in the world for a stint. 

Obama?  You mean the man who was completely delegitimized by white America as "a kenyan muslim terrorist?"  I remind you, that was not a fringe position -- it LITERALLY GOT ITS CHIEF PROPONENT ELECTED PRESIDENT.  Obama wasn't a particularly powerful and effective leader?  You don't say....

Quote

 Former Senator George Voinovich also goes on record telling Grunwald that Republican marching orders were to oppose everything the Obama administration proposed.

“If he was for it, we had to be against it,” Voinovich tells Grunwald. ... “He wanted everyone to hold the fort. All he cared about was making sure Obama could never have a clean victory.”

The biggest change that has to happen is for the comfortable, powerful class in America to fucking ALLOW black voices to gain volume and power.  But we won't.  We shit on them when they kneel, we shit on them when they march, we shit on them when they walk off the basketball court, we shit on them when they get frustrated and break shit, we call for their execution even when they are exonerated (again, a position that was so awful, so abhorrent to basic racial fairness and justice.....that we rewarded its proponent with the US Presidency).

There is precisely one thing that the rest of America wants black people to do -- STFU and take it.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Brisketexan 105081]

26 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If the left wing is in favor of big government, the right wing is in favor of small government, and anarchists are in favor of no government, wouldn't that make anarchists a far-right extremist group?

Oh, also, the myth of the Right being for "small government" is one of the bigger lies ever peddled.  They are in favor of small government for them, strict and authoritarian government for everyone else.  They love small government.....like paramilitary forces in armored vehicles subjugating cities that refuse to protect their authority, kicking down doors to seize a joint, and lecture everyone about how they should just comply with all government orders.....so long as those orders come from someone with a gun and a badge.  If those orders come from a court or something like that, then THOSE orders are anti-freedom and are garbage.

[wildcat09 29347]

Conservatives support a big government that maintains the status quo hierarchy of power. Everything else is window dressing to pretty that up.

[JimmyJames 12271]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pssst.....here's the answer to your million dollar question: nothing.  Nothing works, because we -- the people in power who control this society -- won't let it.  It is a rule of humanity -- save violent rebellion to change the status quo, the minority has precisely the power and the voice that the majority grants them.  No more, and no less.

Where's a strong leader?  There wont and can't be one.  Because those in power de-legitimize every potential threatening voice before it gathers any significant power.  Shit, see FF's question:

Obama?  You mean the man who was completely delegitimized by white America as "a kenyan muslim terrorist?"  I remind you, that was not a fringe position -- it LITERALLY GOT ITS CHIEF PROPONENT ELECTED PRESIDENT.  Obama wasn't a particularly powerful and effective leader?  You don't say....

The biggest change that has to happen is for the comfortable, powerful class in America to fucking ALLOW black voices to gain volume and power.  But we won't.  We shit on them when they kneel, we shit on them when they march, we shit on them when they walk off the basketball court, we shit on them when they get frustrated and break shit, we call for their execution even when they are exonerated (again, a position that was so awful, so abhorrent to basic racial fairness and justice.....that we rewarded its proponent with the US Presidency).

There is precisely one thing that the rest of America wants black people to do -- STFU and take it.

In hindsight, Obama and the Democratic Party made a huge mistake attempting to engage the Republican Party. The day after his inauguration they should have eliminated the filibuster, passed whatever they wanted, and rammed through hundreds of judges, and simply ignored the republicans at every turn. There is no negotiation with a party that believes in absolutely nothing but hate and power. 
 

Oh well. Biden will get that chance in a few months. And that is what needs to happen. No discussion whatsoever with the republicans. Just ignore them except to throw trump and his criminal org in jail. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by JimmyJames

[Brisketexan 105081]

3 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

In hindsight, Obama and the Democratic Party made a huge mistake attempting to engage the Republican Party. The day after his inauguration they should have eliminated the filibuster, passed whatever they wanted, and rammed through hundreds of judges, and simply ignored the republicans at every turn. There is no negotiation with a party that believes in absolutely nothing but hate and power. 
 

Oh well. Biden will get that chance in a few months. And that is what needs to happen. No discussion whatsoever with the republicans. Just ignore them except to throw trump and his criminal org in jail. 

This.  "Bi-partisanship" is deader than a doornail.  No point in propping up its corpse like some political Weekend at Bernies.  When you win office, use the power.  All of it.  That is the lesson that we have learned from the McConnell and Trump GOP.  Petards....you can be hoisted on your own.

[triplehorn 2664]

I had forgotten about this re Erik Prince: 

NYT:  Erik Prince Recruits Ex-Spies to Help Infiltrate Liberal Groups

CNN: Erik Prince recruiting former spies to help with Project Veritas stings

Be it Blackwater, Xi, or some yet to be recognized operation, trafficking in trained spies, agent provocateurs, and assassins is right up Prince's alley.  This deliberate election strategy targeting the American public to generate a spike in fear and division needs death and chaos to succeed.  Left-wing domestic terrorism and murder perp'd by "Antifa" is essentially a myth.  So if you're not getting the desired level of death and chaos in the streets, what is someone like Erik Prince with his like-minded assets capable of coordinating to push it over the edge?  When Trump tweets that we haven't seen nothin yet re the course of protests in "Democrat cities", in this case it's probably fair warning about whatever is planned next.  

 

[Rougarou 594]

5 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Oh well. Biden will get that chance in a few months. And that is what needs to happen. No discussion whatsoever with the republicans. Just ignore them except to throw trump and his criminal org in jail. 

A Biden Presidency is an acceptable alternative to Trump, by most of the power-brokers and rich folks because it's a return to decorum-friendly, velvet-gloved capitalism, with incremental change peppered in here or there (maybe some decriminalization of some weed?), but not wholesale change that will disrupt the apple cart for the upper-middle class and above.

I think expecting a Biden Presidency to go full-on scorched earth is being blind or deaf to why he is even the Democratic nominee over some of the more capable that he bested in the primary.

[fattyflattie 4639]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Obama?  You mean the man who was completely delegitimized by white America as "a kenyan muslim terrorist?"  I remind you, that was not a fringe position -- it LITERALLY GOT ITS CHIEF PROPONENT ELECTED PRESIDENT.  Obama wasn't a particularly powerful and effective leader?  You don't say....

He was also elected by...white America.  He didn't win with only minority votes.  And he wasn't particularly keen to being anti-divisive, either.  

He carried 43% of the white vote in '08.

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2009/04/30/dissecting-the-2008-electorate-most-diverse-in-us-history/

[UpperWestside 6161]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The biggest change that has to happen is for the comfortable, powerful class in America to fucking ALLOW black voices to gain volume and power.  But we won't.  We shit on them when they kneel, we shit on them when they march, we shit on them when they walk off the basketball court, we shit on them when they get frustrated and break shit, we call for their execution even when they are exonerated (again, a position that was so awful, so abhorrent to basic racial fairness and justice.....that we rewarded its proponent with the US Presidency).

There is precisely one thing that the rest of America wants black people to do -- STFU and take it.

I think that the word ALLOW in the context of our current situation is a gigantic part of the problem. The part of our populace that is allied with our black brothers and sisters needs to follow their lead. They know what being trashed by the rich and powerful looks like. They know what racism looks like. Whether it be a convenience store clerk saying the N word to them or a bank loan officer denying them a loan because the house they want is in what is deemed an undesirable neighborhood. African-Americans know this system and how abhorrent and racist it is. The rest of us need to get onboard and follow their lead.
 

I am not a part of the BLM Movement to get anything for myself. You aren’t in this Brisket to get anything for yourself. B_T isn’t in it for himself. Dozens of others on this board that support the movement are doing so in order to get equality for our fellow citizens in every aspect of life in American society. That fight is not an easy one. We all have to keep being supportive in every way we possibly can and we have to be willing to pushback at every opportunity against a society that is not inclusive for all. We just have to push through the mental and physical fatigue. African-Americans have four centuries worth of hell they have had to deal with. I will never know the horror of an encounter with a cop possibly being the end of my life. African-Americans are the most resilient group of people we have ever seen and have the honor to share a country with.  The least we can all do that abhor racism is to continue to give them unwavering support in the face of the brutality they face each day just to survive. We’ve let them go it alone for far too long. A broad coalition of people is the only way this racist system based upon hate is going to be defeated.

Edited August 31, 2020 by UpperWestside

[fattyflattie 4639]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Where's a strong leader?  There wont and can't be one.  Because those in power de-legitimize every potential threatening voice before it gathers any significant power. 

So Dr. King came to significant power how?  And it's impossible today why?

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

A Biden Presidency is an acceptable alternative to Trump, by most of the power-brokers and rich folks because it's a return to decorum-friendly, velvet-gloved capitalism, with incremental change peppered in here or there (maybe some decriminalization of some weed?), but not wholesale change that will disrupt the apple cart for the upper-middle class and above.

I think expecting a Biden Presidency to go full-on scorched earth is being blind or deaf to why he is even the Democratic nominee over some of the more capable that he bested in the primary.

Biden ain’t Bernie but he ain’t a Republican either.

If the dems take the senate the fillibuster is dead. Moscow Mitch made sure of that. 

The DOJ will go after trump and his crime org because of the simple fact that they are criminals. 

The top one percent will have their taxes raised. 

That isn’t going scorched earth that is dealing in reality. 

[Rougarou 594]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pssst.....here's the answer to your million dollar question: nothing.  Nothing works, because we -- the people in power who control this society -- won't let it.  It is a rule of humanity -- save violent rebellion to change the status quo, the minority has precisely the power and the voice that the majority grants them.  No more, and no less.

Where's a strong leader?  There wont and can't be one.  Because those in power de-legitimize every potential threatening voice before it gathers any significant power.  Shit, see FF's question:

Man, this sounds defeatist and is sad. It's hopelessness and resigned to some absolute truism you claim to know about the human condition. Look-- my belief is we are all vain people in need of humility, but I think you might need a little bit more than most.

Come in from the ledge. Or as the Joker in TDK said, "Briskettexan, come down off the cross, we can use the wood, and come on up to the house."

[Brisketexan 105081]

1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

He was also elected by...white America.  He didn't win with only minority votes.  And he wasn't particularly keen to being anti-divisive, either.  

He carried 43% of the white vote in '08.

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2009/04/30/dissecting-the-2008-electorate-most-diverse-in-us-history/

He wasn't keen to being anti-divisive?  Shit, I think the primary criticisms most objective folks would have of Obama was that he 1) lacked specific experience with the subject matter of being the USA's chief executive officer, and 2) he was too milquetoast.  The most divisive thing about Obama was that he had the nerve to be black, and play basketball, and eat spicy mustard and wear tan suits.  Seriously, objectively speaking, he was a "blah" president.

He got SOME white votes (proving my point -- minorities can only get power if enough white people agree to let them have it), and even then, let's state it another way -- a STRONG majority of white folks voted against him.  57-43 is landslide-type numbers in an election (for comparison, Reagan beat Mondale by just under 59-41, and that was an ASS-KICKING).

[Rougarou 594]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Biden ain’t Bernie but he ain’t a Republican either.

If the dems take the senate the fillibuster is dead. Moscow Mitch made sure of that. 

The DOJ will go after trump and his crime org because of the simple fact that they are criminals. 

The top one percent will have their taxes raised. 

That isn’t going scorched earth that is dealing in reality. 

Let's see. I think you are wrong, but won't be mad at 'cha if you are right. Either way, I'm looking forward to a Biden presidency as someone who voted for Obama in '08

[fattyflattie 4639]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

He got SOME white votes (proving my point -- minorities can only get power if enough white people agree to let them have it)

Bullshit.  Your words were:

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You mean the man who was completely delegitimized by white America as "a kenyan muslim terrorist?"

So when the fuck is 43% of account for "white America" as you put it.  You think those 43% believed and parroted he was a kenyan muslim terrorist?  You brush is a bit too broad.

 

Mustard was not the issue.  Imagine W saying, "If I had a son, he'd look just like Kyle Rittenhouse".  Tell me how you think that would play out among his political opposition. 

[Brisketexan 105081]

4 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I think that the word ALLOW in the context of our current situation is a gigantic part of the problem. The part of our populace that is allied with our black brothers and sisters needs to follow their lead.

The word ALLOW here SUCKS....but it remains the truth.  We are in the position of power.  Power means something, and change doesn't happen unless and until the power structures change, or at least change their behavior.  It's just reality.  But yes, we need to listen and follow their lead, absolutely.  And by following their lead, I mean that we need to back them up, provide them protection, provide them numbers, and as helpful, provide them entry into the halls and processes of power.

6 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

So Dr. King came to significant power how?  And it's impossible today why?

He didn't.  Go back and read up on how MLK polled at the time.  He was deeply unpopular.  He's only "popular" now because enough white people have sanitized him, turned him into a harmless leader of platitudes, and neutralized the uncomfortable messages he presented.

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Man, this sounds defeatist and is sad. It's hopelessness and resigned to some absolute truism you claim to know about the human condition. Look-- my belief is we are all vain people in need of humility, but I think you might need a little bit more than most.

Come in from the ledge. Or as the Joker in TDK said, "Briskettexan, come down off the cross, we can use the wood, and come on up to the house."

Huh?  I'm not being vain here -- shit, I'm quite resigned to my powerlessness.  And yeah, I think the whole fucking thing is really damned sad.  Because all we're being called to do is to be decent and fair to our fellow man, and to fight to make sure that's how our systems work.  And we fight AGAINST that with a fervor that makes it look like our very survival is at stake.  Man, this isn't about me and what I do or don't do that is or isn't enough.  

It's about the fact that as a collective society, we keep choosing shitty over decent.

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13578]

It seems like only yesterday Obama was tweeting "LIBERATE!" to his armed supporters to storm the Senate once McConnell decided he could deny Obama's rightful SC nominee by ignoring the Constitution.

 

JFC.

[wildcat09 29347]

5 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Bullshit.  Your words were:

So when the fuck is 43% of account for "white America" as you put it.  You think those 43% believed and parroted he was a kenyan muslim terrorist?  You brush is a bit too broad.

 

Mustard was not the issue.  Imagine W saying, "If I had a son, he'd look just like Kyle Rittenhouse".  Tell me how you think that would play out among his political opposition. 

Trayvon was hunted outside his own home. Rittenhouse joined a violent gang. Equating the two is bullshit.

[Brisketexan 105081]

 

4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Bullshit.  Your words were:

So when the fuck is 43% of account for "white America" as you put it.  You think those 43% believed and parroted he was a kenyan muslim terrorist?  You brush is a bit too broad.

 

Mustard was not the issue.  Imagine W saying, "If I had a son, he'd look just like Kyle Rittenhouse".  Tell me how you think that would play out among his political opposition. 

So, not EVERY white person thought Obama was an awful Kenyan Muslim terrorist who might be the antichrist.....just a strong majority of them.  To the extent that I overstated that, mea culpa.

And mustard absolutely was the fucking issue.  EVERYTHING was the issue.  And yeah, there's a pretty big fucking difference between someone who was unarmed, walking home, and someone who traveled TO a fight armed with an AR.  So, I think the messaging on that would be pretty fucking different.

What I underestimated about Obama was how much white america would flip the fuck out because we had a black president.  I was SUPER-naive about how we would receive a black president.  I truly didn't realize how that would fuck us up.  Again, we rewarded, with the office of presidency, someone whose key messages were 1) Obama is a Kenyan Muslim not an American, and 2) we should still execute young black males who were exonerated of a crime.  That speaks really damned loudly.

[BrickHorn 18217]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Mustard was not the issue.  Imagine W saying, "If I had a son, he'd look just like Kyle Rittenhouse".  Tell me how you think that would play out among his political opposition.

That’s such a terrible fucking point. In one case, a young man who was minding his own damned business just going about his life was harassed and ultimately killed by an asshole who profiled him based on race. The other kid grabbed a military weapon and drove 50 miles to interject in a violent situation, where he shot three people. 

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

He didn't.  Go back and read up on how MLK polled at the time.  He was deeply unpopular.  He's only "popular" now because enough white people have sanitized him, turned him into a harmless leader of platitudes, and neutralized the uncomfortable messages he presented.

I didn't know you needed a popular leader.  I figured one that would bring about real change would be good enough.  You definitely aren't incorrect, in that it has been a long time.  And we may never get another Dr. King; he seems to be pretty far up the once in a generation/lifetime ladder.  But someone could, and should have stepped up since then. 

[workswithseed 2095]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

If the left wing is in favor of big government, the right wing is in favor of small government, and anarchists are in favor of no government, wouldn't that make anarchists a far-right extremist group?

No. I don't know any ancaps who love ancoms.

[Brisketexan 105081]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

I didn't know you needed a popular leader.  I figured one that would bring about real change would be good enough.  You definitely aren't incorrect, in that it has been a long time.  And we may never get another Dr. King; he seems to be pretty far up the once in a generation/lifetime ladder.  But someone could, and should have stepped up since then. 

Plenty have tried.  There's always something wrong, and completely disqualifying about them.  He was late paying his tuition one semester, he got busted with a joint in college, whatever.

Whereas for white America, a leader who brags about grabbing women by the pussy, built his campaign on racist lies about Obama, and called for the murder (because that's what execution would be, if someone is not guilty) of young minorities legally exonerated of their crime.....is elected president and exalted as a god by millions.

There are no black leaders like MLK because the white power structure has learned their lesson, and is never going to let another MLK happen.

[JimmyJames 12271]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The word ALLOW here SUCKS....but it remains the truth.  We are in the position of power.  Power means something, and change doesn't happen unless and until the power structures change, or at least change their behavior.  It's just reality.  But yes, we need to listen and follow their lead, absolutely.  And by following their lead, I mean that we need to back them up, provide them protection, provide them numbers, and as helpful, provide them entry into the halls and processes of power.

He didn't.  Go back and read up on how MLK polled at the time.  He was deeply unpopular.  He's only "popular" now because enough white people have sanitized him, turned him into a harmless leader of platitudes, and neutralized the uncomfortable messages he presented.

Huh?  I'm not being vain here -- shit, I'm quite resigned to my powerlessness.  And yeah, I think the whole fucking thing is really damned sad.  Because all we're being called to do is to be decent and fair to our fellow man, and to fight to make sure that's how our systems work.  And we fight AGAINST that with a fervor that makes it look like our very survival is at stake.  Man, this isn't about me and what I do or don't do that is or isn't enough.  

It's about the fact that as a collective society, we keep choosing shitty over decent.

Trumpkins and Republicans are ok with Dr. King now because he’s dead. 

[A-Tex Devil 2446]

12 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Mustard was not the issue.  Imagine W saying, "If I had a son, he'd look just like Kyle Rittenhouse".  Tell me how you think that would play out among his political opposition. 

Fuck that noise.  That you are drawing any equivalency with Kyle Rittenhouse and Trayvon Martin tells me all I need to know.  Kyle Rittenhouse needs to spend the rest of his life in prison.  Trayvon Martin is dead because a racist shitbag decided a black kid didn't have the right to walk down a street.

[wildcat09 29347]

4 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

No. I don't know any ancaps who love ancoms.

You know a lot of ancaps?

[Rougarou 594]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

There are no black leaders like MLK because the white power structure has learned their lesson, and is never going to let another MLK happen.

Beliefs like this is where you lose most rational, normal, decent people, in my humble opinion.

[fattyflattie 4639]

1 minute ago, A-Tex Devil said:

Trayvon Martin is dead because a racist shitbag decided a black kid didn't have the right to walk down a street.

Which is why Zimmerman is not in prison.  Got it. 

eta: Right, wrong, indifferent.  It doesn't change what I stated. It was a divisive statement then, would be now.  

Edited August 31, 2020 by fattyflattie

[workswithseed 2095]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You know a lot of ancaps?

Not personally, no.

[Brisketexan 105081]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

Beliefs like this is where you lose most rational, normal, decent people, in my humble opinion.

Really?  Why don't you read the sanitized version of MLK that "conservative" leadership dares to hold up.  Then read what MLK ACTUALLY said and believed, and see how different the "sanitized, acceptable MLK" is from the actual MLK.  If you presented real-deal MLK statements to these people, without attribution (so, they wouldn't be signaled that they need to tread lightly because it's MLK), and they'd roundly condemn him.

MLK is now a mythical character that has been created to give white people/powerful people the ability to say "see, I'm not racist, I admire MLK."  The real, historical MLK, and what he actually said and believed.....is anathema to them.

[A-Tex Devil 2446]

2 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Which is why Zimmerman is not in prison.  Got it. 

eta: Right, wrong, indifferent.  It doesn't change what I stated. It was a divisive statement then, would be now.  

Why was it divisive?  Anyone who felt uncomfortable about what Obama said about Trayvon Martin needs to look fucking inward.  Whatever.... I don't want to threadjack.  Carry on.