Shooting at Austin protest tonight, 1 dead

[dcar00 14366]

30 minutes ago, Deej said:

They turned the outside lanes into bike lanes, so it went from three each direction into two. If you're taking a right turn off of Congress, beware the cyclist continuing straight. 

apparently if you are taking a right turn anywhere you need to have a gun at the ready...

[MirrOlure 14840]

Quick pause here....but something I’ve been wanting to acknowledge from the windshield video looking south down Congress across 4th:

That Scooter Dude’s change-of-direction ability is the best we’ve seen in Austin since Aaron Ross. Dude cut backwards on a dime

[Pato del Muerto 52600]

Had to jump past 6 pages...

the guy claiming to have shot at the car as it fled, is that a legally justifiable act in the moment?

[Gourmand 7774]

Just now, Hate said:

What other way does a driver communicate with pedestrians? Can you tell the difference between an “angry I’m going to run you over honk” and an “excuse me I really want to get out the way to allow y’all to continue honk”?

I think we all know what an aggressive honk sounds like. He didn't stop at the red light, he could see a lot of people in the middle of the street at 4th and Congress marching with signs, he turns without stopping and then he lays on the horn as he advances south on Congress. It wasn't a surprise that they were there and it's certainly within reason to conclude that he was the aggressor and just generally pissed off about them being in his way. 

[Wally Pryor 5263]

2 hours ago, Halohal said:

Saw the fund me page... Doesn't a portion of funds raised go to the website owner's? At last glance... And why disable new donations?

 

Official Garrett Foster Memorial Fund

$108,534 raised

 

Share

The organizer has currently disabled new donations to this fundraiser.

Holy shit. $108K in a day+?  And that's with new donations suspended?    

In Foster's honor, maybe consider taking some of this money and earmark it for a permit fee or two and police escorts.  Maybe do something to avoid the vehicular and pedestrian interaction that got this guy blown away to begin with.  

Oh, wait.  The pigs would be involved in this and the one given is that they fuck everything up.       

[Hate 20145]

I think we all know what an aggressive honk sounds like. He didn't stop at the red light, he could see a lot of people in the middle of the street at 4th and Congress marching with signs, he turns without stopping and then he lays on the horn as he advances south on Congress. It wasn't a surprise that they were there and it's certainly within reason to conclude that he was the aggressor and just generally pissed off about them being in his way. 

You’ve heard testimony from him? You know what he saw? Link please.

[BradInATX 9208]

This thread is an absolute steaming pile of dogshit. It's like the very worst of the Chaz, Minneapolis, and BLM threads all combined in to one. We've got rampant speculation without facts, politicization of everything, giant walls of text of posters arguing with each other over semantics, thinly-veiled racism, posters who can't contain their glee over a man dying, and "I know more about guns than you" dick measuring contests. 

I wish this thread could get Covid.

Edited July 27, 2020 by BradInATX

[dcar00 14366]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Setting aside this is a single image..

If the barrel is indeed pointed down in this image can we also assume his hand is on the grip of the lower based on his right arm position?

Neither of which proves he pointed the gun before or after this photo. 
 

Also, if the driver had ill intent or panicked, would be shocked he somehow only hit the man with a rifle in a crazy mob of people surrounding him. I’m sure the police are envious. 

I am sure there are business cameras/video around there.  I'm guessing the AK guy moved closer and towards the drivers window.  I'm sure he NEVER thought a gun would be pulled on him.

[Brisketexan 105338]

2 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

This thread is an absolute steaming pile of dogshit. It's like the very worst of the Chaz, Minneapolis, and BLM threads all combined in to one. We've got rampant speculation without facts, politicization of everything, giant walls of text of posters arguing with each other over semantics, thinly-veiled racism, and "I know more about guns than you" dick measuring contests. 

I wish this thread could get Covid.

We also have a coked up chihuahua in a closet....so, I mean....there's that.

[Gourmand 7774]

Just now, Hate said:

You’ve heard testimony from him? You know what he saw? Link please.

The video is clear that he runs a red light while there's a lot of sign-carrying protesters smack in the middle of the intersection and shortly thereafter you hear one long five second honking of the horn without let up, then shots fired. My point is that you can't ignore that as a possible indicator of his state of mind. 

[Gourmand 7774]

Slightly OT but this incident reminded me of one in the Warehouse District from 15-20 years ago (?) involving the burglary of a vehicle that ended in the burglar getting shot dead in an alley running away from the shooter's truck. The shooter was a bar owner or manager iirc and was charged and subsequently found not guilty. Any surly law dogs remember the particulars of that one or the shooter's name?

[Paco 1934]

This thread is an absolute steaming pile of dogshit. It's like the very worst of the Chaz, Minneapolis, and BLM threads all combined in to one. We've got rampant speculation without facts, politicization of everything, giant walls of text of posters arguing with each other over semantics, thinly-veiled racism, posters who can't contain their glee over a man dying, and "I know more about guns than you" dick measuring contests. 
I wish this thread could get Covid.

Please refrain from commenting while we determine whether or not there was an aggressive honk involved. Thank you.

[ChickenSandwich 9853]

8 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

The video is clear that he runs a red light while there's a lot of sign-carrying protesters smack in the middle of the intersection and shortly thereafter you hear one long five second honking of the horn without let up, then shots fired. My point is that you can't ignore that as a possible indicator of his state of mind. 

In the heat of that moment, that’s fair. 
 

We can’t determine that “state of mind” was pre-meditated towards the “protest” at this time. Lots of people get angry in traffic incidents. Lots honk, scream, flip the bird. Many people have even been hit by cars on 6th street at night way before the protests. 
 

Any proclamations of malicious intent on behalf of the driver towards the protest is wishful thinking at this point until some evidence of that comes forward. And it certainly is possible, but reasonable with what we know so far? 
 

The same situation could happen after a football game between drunk parties. Difference there is usually a dude with an AK doesn’t join the fray. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

57 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, that does miss the point.  As part of a larger strategy, many protests aim for civil disobedience.  Note, that is NOT violence, causing property damage, etc.  But it was "illegal" to sit-in at a lunch counter, to refuse to go to the back of the bus, to march on certain streets in Birmingham, etc.  The goal is to do so peacefully, but not in compliance with the law.  There is literally a playbook on, say, sitting in an area too close to the White House, and the cops tell you if you don't leave, you'll be arrested -- and you say you won't leave, and they arrest you.  You don't resist, they don't need to beat you, it's civil disobedience.

None of which provides legal justification, in any way, under any law that I'm aware of, for the use of deadly force.  If someone wants to protest whatever issue they want by sitting in the middle of the street in front of your car, they are absolutely breaking the law, and can be arrested.  But you don't get to run over them, saying "hey, they were breaking the law -- it's on them."  If a person is sitting in the road in front of you, you see them, and consciously decide to run them over, you committed murder, regardless of the legality of their sitting.

We don't know if that's what happened here.  But there are a bunch of folks who have effectively said, assuming that it was, tough shit, they were breaking the law, so the driver was justified in running his car through them.  And that's just not the law.  If that's what the driver did, he committed assault with a deadly weapon, and when the people assaulted responded with force, he will not have the defense of self-defense available because he provoked the confrontation.  Again, we're discussing hypotheticals, because the facts and evidence are clearly still developing.

Your argument for civil disobedience would hold some water if the city was discriminating on the types of protests to which it grants permits. They are not prohibiting Black Lives Matters marches and the parallel to the Jim Crow era is a poor one. There is a reason why there is a process that requires 10 days advance notice: to arrange for traffic barriers, get word out that certain streets will be closed, get police officers to direct traffic and maintain safety, etc. The law is not being enforced which resulted in tragic circumstances on Saturday night. Have a Black Lives Matters March every fucking weekend if you want but get a fucking permit and arrange for traffic and safety. The rest of the time - protest your hearts content on the sidewalk without a permit as allowed under the law.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Iconoclast Texan

[Hate 20145]

The video is clear that he runs a red light while there's a lot of sign-carrying protesters smack in the middle of the intersection and shortly thereafter you hear one long five second honking of the horn without let up, then shots fired. My point is that you can't ignore that as a possible indicator of his state of mind. 

Sorry, it got confusing when you were mixing speculation with facts. You were right that the fact is that the driver did honk his horn. The speculation begins when you try to interpret the intention of the horn honking. The fact is, we have absolutely no idea what the intentions of the driver were and won’t until we hear some report from APD.

[Brisketexan 105338]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Any proclamations of malicious intent on behalf of the driver towards the protest is wishful thinking at this point until some evidence of that comes forward. And it certainly is possible, but reasonable with what we know so far? 
 

The same situation could happen after a football game between drunk parties. Difference there is usually a dude with an AK doesn’t join the fray.

Note that any aggressive/malicious intent doesn't have to have anything to do with any political position.  The driver may have just been pissed off that there were people in his way (so, the gameday analogy is also applicable).  If he's pissed off, and runs his car at them aggressively, intending to do so, that may be sufficient provocation to deprive him of the defense of self-defense.

And yes, again....the presence of locked and loaded rifles only amps up the shit and makes a deadly outcome a lot more likely.  Frankly, I think there's a sound argument to be made that having a hand on a firearm is an inherently aggressive act, constitutes legal provocation, and deprives the holder of the defense of self-defense.  If you've got to carry a rifle, carry it on a sling (preferably a shoulder sling, where it's behind you), without your hands on it.  You approach me with your hands on a locked and loaded weapon, I am goddamned well entitled to view you as an imminent threat.  In fact, it's insane to me that it's even an argument.

[ztejas 43537]

23 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

We've got rampant speculation without facts, politicization of everything, giant walls of text of posters arguing with each other over semantics, thinly-veiled racism, posters who can't contain their glee over a man dying, and "I know more about guns than you" dick measuring contests. 

I know right? It's awesome. 

[BradInATX 9208]

9 minutes ago, Paco said:

Please refrain from commenting while we determine whether or not there was an aggressive honk involved. Thank you.

There's not enough evidence for any conclusions right now. The two critical tipping points were 1) whether or not the driver instigated a confrontation and 2) whether or not the driver was justified in feeling sufficiently threatened to kill a person. 

We don't have nearly enough facts to make a judgement on either of those. Of course that's not stopping people, but the majority that already have their minds made up despite the lack of information all happen to have a certain predisposition towards BLM and minorities in general. Which of course surprises nobody. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by BradInATX

[Armybrat 40911]

55 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I'm not a hater of guns. I just think that people like open rifle carry guy draw negative attention towards gun ownership and enthusiasm. I am not a fan of open carry rifle guy.

You mean these heroes Mutt & Jeff at Chipotle in Austin several years ago didn’t change your opinion? 😆

 

[Armybrat 40911]

11 minutes ago, Paco said:

26 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

This thread is an absolute steaming pile of dogshit. It's like the very worst of the Chaz, Minneapolis, and BLM threads all combined in to one. We've got rampant speculation without facts, politicization of everything, giant walls of text of posters arguing with each other over semantics, thinly-veiled racism, posters who can't contain their glee over a man dying, and "I know more about guns than you" dick measuring contests. 
I wish this thread could get Covid.

Please refrain from commenting while we determine whether or not there was an aggressive honk involved. Thank you.

So a honkie was involved?

[Hate 20145]

There's not enough evidence for any conclusions right now. The two critical tipping points were 1) whether or not the driver instigated a confrontation and 2) whether or not the driver was justified in feeling sufficiently threatened to kill a person. 
We don't have nearly enough facts to make a judgement on either of those. Of course that's not stopping people, but the majority that already have their minds made up despite the lack of information all happen to have a certain predisposition towards BLM and minorities in general. Which of course surprises nobody. 

Uhm, it would appear that “both” sides that you suggest exist in this particular incident have their minds made up.

[Armybrat 40911]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We also have a coked up chihuahua in a closet....so, I mean....there's that.

So, was my son racist for posting his dog Chico’s Halloween pic?

 

[BradInATX 9208]

4 minutes ago, Hate said:

Uhm, it would appear that “both” sides that you suggest exist in this particular incident have their minds made up.

I haven't seen that outside of a couple of people. 

[justhookit 4191]

Since we are all jumping to conclusions.

its still possible this was actually a lynching of a black man./Pancho

[bolverk 29720]

12 minutes ago, Hate said:

Sorry, it got confusing when you were mixing speculation with facts. You were right that the fact is that the driver did honk his horn. The speculation begins when you try to interpret the intention of the horn honking. The fact is, we have absolutely no idea what the intentions of the driver were and won’t until we hear some report from APD.

Totally agree about any comment regarding intent would be entirely speculative. The honking, however, does indicate he was aware there were people in the street and, therefore, his swift turn into that lane was at the very least reckless driving.

My personal opinion is that it was likely he was just frustrated about a crowd of folks in the street and was impatient about trying to get somewhere fast, which would explain him not stopping at the red light. I don't think he was actively trying to hurt anyone as evidenced by him stopping really quickly. He freaked out when the crowd got pissed and reacted to his reckless behavior, including seeing a guy holding a gun (maybe pointing?), so he shot him during his agitated state and drove away to get away from the crowd. I bet he stopped a short time later once he was no longer being swarmed by pissed off protesters, because there's no mention of a pursuit and, in fact, the cops stated that he was complying and later released.

It was just a tragic fucked up situation in a time of amped up emotions. 

[Gourmand 7774]

37 minutes ago, Hate said:

Sorry, it got confusing when you were mixing speculation with facts. You were right that the fact is that the driver did honk his horn. The speculation begins when you try to interpret the intention of the horn honking. The fact is, we have absolutely no idea what the intentions of the driver were and won’t until we hear some report from APD.

Obviously it's an interpretation and speculative but the honking of his horn is also an important detail that has largely gone ignored in this thread. When you put it together with the overall scene on the street and the video of scores of protesters carrying signs in the middle of Congress Ave, it undercuts any defense that the driver was just innocently shocked to find himself in the middle of a bunch of BLM protesters. He knew what was going on. 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Gourmand

[fuggled 576]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

One of the essential facts is going to be breaking down the driver’s actions in turning onto Congress and into the crowd. If it was an aggressive act that meets the legal definition of “provocation” (thanks for reminding us of the right term, 4th and 5), then he the defense of self-defense will likely not be available to him.
It’s clear that he DID kill a guy, so it’s absolutely homicide. The question is whether it was an act of self-defense as defined by the law. And the law generally doesn’t provide for that defense for the person who provoked the conflict.

I don’t get to aggressively point a deadly weapon at you, and then shoot you and claim self defense when you draw on me in response.

Whether that’s what happened here is a fact question. And yes, if there was no provocation, then the dead man was the person who started the aggression, and the driver had a good self defense case.

How much of this determination will be dictated by the driver's intent vs the perception of the crowd?  Even if the driver had no ill intent and had made the turn without realizing how close the crowd was, it would be easy to understand how pedestrians might feel threatened.  Vehicles seem much bigger, faster and more dangerous when you're standing in the road.

[dcar00 14366]

there is a lot unknown here but IMO, this whole situation is 100% on the city leadership.

[South Austin 52605]

1 hour ago, MirrOlure said:

Quick pause here....but something I’ve been wanting to acknowledge from the windshield video looking south down Congress across 4th:

That Scooter Dude’s change-of-direction ability is the best we’ve seen in Austin since Aaron Ross. Dude cut backwards on a dime

Can someone check into whether he has any remaining eligibility?  Something good can come from all this.

[freyguy 4289]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

there is a lot unknown here but IMO, this whole situation is 100% on the city leadership.

Now that's the funniest post on this thread

[ztejas 43537]

7 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

there is a lot unknown here but IMO, this whole situation is 100% on the city leadership.

How do we know Will Wynn wasn't the shooter in the car?

[dcar00 14366]

6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

How do we know Will Wynn wasn't the shooter in the car?

Wynn was on the grassy parking garage...

[GHOSTUSER 361]

You mean these heroes Mutt & Jeff at Chipotle in Austin several years ago didn’t change your opinion? 

 

Don’t forget shopping for groceries at Kroger open carry guy

 

[InkaUtexas 26109]

10 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Don’t forget shopping for groceries at Kroger open carry guy

 

At least get an MP5 ya fucking dork! 

[closetohumping 17470]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I know the driver has stated to the police that the protester pointed a gun at him, but does the image below show a barrel pointed up?  Will any charge depend on if one can prove the gun barrel was raised towards the car? 

 

I think this image would actually help the drivers case.   You may want to delete 

[babysdaddy 2728]

15 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Don’t forget shopping for groceries at Kroger open carry guy

 

Caddyshack "Looks good on you though!"

[RDCanecutter 26473]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

We also have a coked up chihuahua in a closet....so, I mean....there's that.

Givin coke to a chihuahua is like givin swimmin lessons to a fish.

[RDCanecutter 26473]

19 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Don’t forget shopping for groceries at Kroger open carry guy

 

I think he's there for the Sudafed. ALL the Sudafed.

[hayden_horn 11365]

i don't know why people have a fundamental need to take a side on issues like this. looks to me like we got two assholes. driver knew exactly what he was doing, as evidenced by the honking horn. he wanted to get the hell out of there and these protesters were inconveniencing him. but he didn't really want to run anyone over, he just wanted them the hell out of his way.

then the crowd gets angry, because a car pulled into them and honked, and reacted. this asshole felt the need to carry a fucking ak47 in low ready slung position. i would argue that the driver doesn't even need a fact finding of the barrel in his direction. just seeing someone kitted up like that is threat enough. so he shoots him in self-defense, which i think is fairly justifiable in the end, even if he instigated the situation.

both assholes went looking for trouble, and trouble found them.

[jkates 316]

At this point, if one is still publicly "protesting," especially at night, he is just an attention-seeking idiot with nothing better to do. The real and meaningful protests ended weeks ago. I advise my friends to stay away from these types of things because nothing good can happen.

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i don't know why people have a fundamental need to take a side on issues like this. looks to me like we got two assholes. driver knew exactly what he was doing, as evidenced by the honking horn. he wanted to get the hell out of there and these protesters were inconveniencing him. but he didn't really want to run anyone over, he just wanted them the hell out of his way.

then the crowd gets angry, because a car pulled into them and honked, and reacted. this asshole felt the need to carry a fucking ak47 in low ready slung position. i would argue that the driver doesn't even need a fact finding of the barrel in his direction. just seeing someone kitted up like that is threat enough. so he shoots him in self-defense, which i think is fairly justifiable in the end, even if he instigated the situation.

both assholes went looking for trouble, and trouble found them.

Yep and is why open carry is a moronic law. Without open carry this incident likely ends in some people shooting the finger at each other.  And if not then the driver is charged with clear murder immediately. Instead we get this shit show. 

[Fondren & Main 6742]

36 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

At least get an MP5 ya fucking dork! 

Can’t do that.  SBR or if you got the SP5K it would need to be holstered.  Which I don’t see how that’s even possible.

[Helobious 9464]

23 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i don't know why people have a fundamental need to take a side on issues like this. looks to me like we got two assholes. driver knew exactly what he was doing, as evidenced by the honking horn. he wanted to get the hell out of there and these protesters were inconveniencing him. but he didn't really want to run anyone over, he just wanted them the hell out of his way.

then the crowd gets angry, because a car pulled into them and honked, and reacted. this asshole felt the need to carry a fucking ak47 in low ready slung position. i would argue that the driver doesn't even need a fact finding of the barrel in his direction. just seeing someone kitted up like that is threat enough. so he shoots him in self-defense, which i think is fairly justifiable in the end, even if he instigated the situation.

both assholes went looking for trouble, and trouble found them.

How am I going to score imaginary points for my “team” if I don’t make this an either/or situation and pick a side? Idiot.

[BradInATX 9208]

18 minutes ago, jkates said:

At this point, if one is still publicly "protesting," especially at night, he is just an attention-seeking idiot with nothing better to do. The real and meaningful protests ended weeks ago. I advise my friends to stay away from these types of things because nothing good can happen.

I'm pretty confident that nobody in your family or social circle was ever in danger of finding themselves at a civil rights protest.

 

 

[Armybrat 40911]

28 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Yep and is why open carry is a moronic law. Without open carry this incident likely ends in some people shooting the finger at each other.  And if not then the driver is charged with clear murder immediately. Instead we get this shit show. 

Nope, The second shooter (at the car) had a concealed handgun and an LTC.
Not that a lot of people, including criminals, think they need government permission to carry anyway.

in times like these, many more people feel the need to carry protection, especially when the cops are being told to stand down in some places. Gun sales this year are an obvious indicator.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Armybrat

[52-80 19246]

39 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i don't know why people have a fundamental need to take a side on issues like this. looks to me like we got two assholes. driver knew exactly what he was doing, as evidenced by the honking horn. he wanted to get the hell out of there and these protesters were inconveniencing him. but he didn't really want to run anyone over, he just wanted them the hell out of his way.

then the crowd gets angry, because a car pulled into them and honked, and reacted. this asshole felt the need to carry a fucking ak47 in low ready slung position. i would argue that the driver doesn't even need a fact finding of the barrel in his direction. just seeing someone kitted up like that is threat enough. so he shoots him in self-defense, which i think is fairly justifiable in the end, even if he instigated the situation.

both assholes went looking for trouble, and trouble found them.

If the city leadership lets this go on for a while, all the idiots will basically just cancel themselves out

[Nicole44 22078]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

If the city leadership lets this go on for a while, all the idiots will basically just cancel themselves out

It actually helps the one person that needs the votes. The longer this goes on.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

there is a lot unknown here but IMO, this whole situation is 100% on the city leadership.

Austin needs new leaders! Anyone know anyone who is running that is good at smoothing out lumps?

Edited July 27, 2020 by Cheeseweasel

[InkaUtexas 26109]

42 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

Can’t do that.  SBR or if you got the SP5K it would need to be holstered.  Which I don’t see how that’s even possible.

There is a longer barrel for them which makes them a rifle. I remember when everyone wanted a Krinkoff since they qualified as a pistol. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

I think you'd be more likely to find and Ivy leager who's great at obfuscation of facts and really giving handy assistance when needed.

Sounds like we need someone who understands disaster science to get us through this crisis. If only...