Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Celery Man 20946]

13 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

When federal property is being attacked, burned, vandalized the feds should come in and arrest people, and protect that property.  What would you do let them burn it down ?  

That's why many cities are seeing more violence. The city leaders have not moved to stop it which invites further violence.

previously the policy was to allow armed protestors to occupy federal buildings and deescalate by acceding to their demands

[seven 1367]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm which came first the chicken or the egg.. 

You think indiscriminate interrogation by unmarked secret police is an acceptable response to graffiti and minor fire damage? Your sense of proportionality is so wacked you probably think it's acceptable for an officer to murder someone allegedly passing a counterfeit bill. 

[dcar00 14182]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In a community where black people are a small-number minority, which is most communities.....they DON'T have the power of the vote.  They are dependent upon the will of the majority sympathizing with their cause, seeing that justice isn't being done, and demanding that it be done and applied equally to all.   That's the very definition of the plight of a minority population.  They can't just overwhelm the ballot box and bring about change -- in most places in this country, they'll never be able to do that.

are you talking about communities/cities like Portland, Seattle, Austin, NYC, San Fran, Minneapolis, LA, Dallas, Houston?

[Brisketexan 105124]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm which came first the chicken or the egg.. 

I will suggest that, the response to protests that grew out of millions upon millions being fed up with police actions and tactics that are lawless and oppressive being....police actions and tactics that are lawless and oppressive....seems unwise.

At some point, it would be nice to see the people who are actually charged with taking the high road (the road of the rule of law, and service to society) to take that high road.

[landman 559]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's the same reason that a strategy of "I'll whoop your fucking ass!" by an angry parent isn't sound parenting, and rarely achieves the long-term desired result: a well-disciplined, respectful child.  Punishment can have a role, and should  -- if it's strategic, calculated, and used in conjunction with positive measures aimed at steering conduct in in the right direction and encouraging proper conduct.

I don't know.  Seems when spankings were still ok kids grew up more respectful than they are now in the orange slices for everyone world.

[dcar00 14182]

1 minute ago, landman said:

I don't know.  Seems when spankings were still ok kids grew up more respectful than they are now in the orange slices for everyone world.

I think someone said once - you reap what you sow.  

[Brisketexan 105124]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

are you talking about communities/cities like Portland, Seattle, Austin, NYC, San Fran, Minneapolis, LA, Dallas, Houston?

Yeah -- pretty much the whole country, save and except a few places like Atlanta.  Even places with what some might call a larger black population, that population isn't big enough to undo the status quo at the ballot box.  Again, it's inherent with being a "minority" population.

[dcar00 14182]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah -- pretty much the whole country, save and except a few places like Atlanta.  Even places with what some might call a larger black population, that population isn't big enough to undo the status quo at the ballot box.  Again, it's inherent with being a "minority" population.

every one of those cities has city govt that is completely sympathetic to the black community plight and even have representatives out of proportion to their population in some cases.

[Helobious 9448]

2 minutes ago, landman said:

I don't know.  Seems when spankings were still ok kids grew up more respectful than they are now in the orange slices for everyone world.

Debatable. My dad spanked me maybe 1 or 2 times ever. He said he got spanked a lot as a kid, & all it taught him once he was bigger was that if someone couldn’t physically hurt him he didn’t have to listen to them. Led to him getting in trouble a bunch. Guess it’s different for different people.

[Brothahorn 10087]

11 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Because it doesn't work. (article discussing study showing that increased minority police does not correlate to less police violence against blacks)

And might even make it worse. (study showing an increase in police violence as more minorities are hired into the police)

Black officers might be MORE likely to arrest non-whites.

 

For clarification, I wasn't necessarily calling for more black cops exclusively. Although personally I do think that more cops of color would benefit certain communities in ways that can't always be measured by studies(role models, mentorships).

What I was calling for more like minded people joining the police force to be the change that they demand. Say a Garrett Foster, decided to join APD instead of just rolling around the streets of Austin with his AK. And imagine if he is on the scene APD attempts to Mr. Ramos. Things might turn out different.  Or if the brave young lady who stood in front of the old people's car directs that energy to being a prosecutor in Louisville. Maybe Breonna Taylor's murder is prosecuted. Instead, we get trinkets, marches, riots and the shit never changes. 

If the system is bad and needs to be changed, who is going the change it? The same people in the system? C'mon. They are part of the problem. IMO, a bigger problem than the cops.

[seven 1367]

Enter the people who think what this country needs is more child abuse. Just crazy. 

[Brisketexan 105124]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

every one of those cities has city govt that is completely sympathetic to the black community plight and even have representatives out of proportion to their population in some cases.

See, here is where you get to hear me crap all over so-called "liberal" cities -- what you posted is the opposite of true.  Those cities -- and I'm mostly focused on Austin here, because that's my greatest observation -- are GREAT at lip-service to the plight.  But when it comes to execution, they are counter-productive.

For example, Austin has long claimed to be SUPER environmentalist -  see Save Our Springs and whatnot.  But the results and true purpose of those initiatives was to stifle development and affordability.  It was really to preserve the "character" of well-to-do mostly white neighborhoods.

I moved to Austin from Houston 30+ years ago.  I immediately saw and heard Austin patting itself on the back about how "progressive" it was (Portland is similar).  And all I could think was "sure, it's easy to be 'progressive' when you segregate the crap out of all the minorities and poor folks."  There were a crapload of Volvos with SOS and "visualize world peace" bumper stickers driven by people who had never interacted with a black or hispanic person other than perhaps their cleaning lady.

I know personally of a planned project to build a job-training center on the east side 20 years ago that got scuttled because the environmental restrictions - intended to keep less desirable things from being built in Tarrytown and 78704 -- made it too much of a hassle and too expensive.

White liberals need to back the fuck up and listen to the grievances, too -- as much or more than the conservative power structure does.

[Brisketexan 105124]

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

For clarification, I wasn't necessarily calling for more black cops exclusively. Although personally I do think that more cops of color would benefit certain communities in ways that can't always be measured by studies(role models, mentorships).

What I was calling for more like minded people joining the police force to be the change that they demand. Say a Garrett Foster, decided to join APD instead of just rolling around the streets of Austin with his AK. And imagine if he is on the scene APD attempts to Mr. Ramos. Things might turn out different.  Or if the brave young lady who stood in front of the old people's car directs that energy to being a prosecutor in Louisville. Maybe Breonna Taylor's murder is prosecuted. Instead, we get trinkets, marches, riots and the shit never changes. 

If the system is bad and needs to be changed, who is going the change it? The same people in the system? C'mon. They are part of the problem. IMO, a bigger problem than the cops.

Good post.  Seriously.

Which emphasizes that the effort here - in our community and in the country at large --  needs to be comprehensive and multi-faceted.  It does have to begin with listening and acknowledging real grievances and structural problems.  We've purposefully ignored and denied too many of them for too long.  But it has to be followed by action, and the most effective actions are like planting a tree -- you gotta do a lotta work and tending, and be patient before you start seeing the fruit.

Personally, I think it is very important to get people from marginalized communities trained in and entering the legal field.  When our governmental legal offices, DAs, etc., start looking like and reflecting the communities they serve, then we will have a more responsive and rational legal apparatus.  So, I and others I know are making a long-term commitment to mentoring, fostering, and financially supporting students looking ahead to law school, and the program that supports them.

That's just one thing - it's my thing, it may not be yours. There have to be 1,000,000 such things.  Being the lifeline or connection for a single family that doesn't have the benefit of such connections -- that's something that a lot of us can do.  Shit, help pay the community college tuition for someone.  It's a few hundred dollars a year, a lot of us can do that.  Every little bit, every point of light...they matter, and make a difference.  Cast them all, and that's how you illuminate the world.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

15 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Instead, we get trinkets, marches, riots and the shit never changes. 

But we changed our Corporate Logo to the BLM logo? What else can we do!??!?!?!?!?

[Brothahorn 10087]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

In a community where black people are a small-number minority, which is most communities.....they DON'T have the power of the vote.  They are dependent upon the will of the majority sympathizing with their cause, seeing that justice isn't being done, and demanding that it be done and applied equally to all.   That's the very definition of the plight of a minority population.  They can't just overwhelm the ballot box and bring about change -- in most places in this country, they'll never be able to do that.

If it was a black problem only, yeah. But haven't these riots shown us that there are plenty of young white voices that are sympathetic? Why would they not be a part of that powerful voting structure? Unless you think the vast majority are just in it for shits and giggles. And the asshole in me, would agree with that 🙂

 But in the urban areas, where the majority of these issues are, blacks have more than enough of a voice to start holding these politicians and their cops accountable. Maybe not in Austin.  But Houston, NYC, Atlanta, LA, Baltimore and such have more than enough votes to make changes. 

[Brisketexan 105124]

5 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

But we changed our Corporate Logo to the BLM logo? What else can we do!??!?!?!?!?

There has already been some significant local and state legislative action (bans on chokeholds, etc.) in just a few months.  Several influential business interests (think large corporations) are both 1) committing financial support to civil rights organizations that can maintain long-term advocacy efforts before legislative bodies and the courts and 2) asserting pressure themselves on governments -- from the federal government on down.  When the largest employers in the country are telling the government that "this shit is broken, and it's in all of our interest to fix it," that spurs action like individual complaints never can.

There's definitely momentum.....as to whether it can be sustained, we'll see.  I'm not optimistic, because the resistance to change is pretty relentless.

[Brisketexan 105124]

5 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

If it was a black problem only, yeah. But haven't these riots shown us that there are plenty of young white voices that are sympathetic? Why would they not be a part of that powerful voting structure? Unless you think the vast majority are just in it for shits and giggles. And the asshole in me, would agree with that 🙂

 But in the urban areas, where the majority of these issues are, blacks have more than enough of a voice to start holding these politicians and their cops accountable. Maybe not in Austin.  But Houston, NYC, Atlanta, LA, Baltimore and such have more than enough votes to make changes. 

You are pointing to a generational shift, which is important.  When the young white voices reach critical mass, then yes, there can be an electoral tip.  Old white folks?  Even most of the ones who think themselves liberal, they've been mostly focused on "protecting the character of their neighborhoods" and whatnot, as I noted above.

And in some of the cities you point out, black electoral pressure has come into play.  It's influential in Baltimore and Atlanta, for example.  It takes a LONG time to turn a ship as big and entrenched as our local PD structures, but there is a sustained effort there.

There are glimmers of hope shining through.  But they're just glimmers.  Shit has crashed and burned before, it most likely will now.  Because the comfortable folks in power don't want anything to upset their apple cart, no matter how many people get fucked over as a result.

[Incredulity 11669]

So, Portland and Federal Government have reached agreement on "phased withdrawl" of Federal Officers.  Should be interesting.

[dcar00 14182]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

See, here is where you get to hear me crap all over so-called "liberal" cities -- what you posted is the opposite of true.  Those cities -- and I'm mostly focused on Austin here, because that's my greatest observation -- are GREAT at lip-service to the plight.  But when it comes to execution, they are counter-productive.

For example, Austin has long claimed to be SUPER environmentalist -  see Save Our Springs and whatnot.  But the results and true purpose of those initiatives was to stifle development and affordability.  It was really to preserve the "character" of well-to-do mostly white neighborhoods.

I moved to Austin from Houston 30+ years ago.  I immediately saw and heard Austin patting itself on the back about how "progressive" it was (Portland is similar).  And all I could think was "sure, it's easy to be 'progressive' when you segregate the crap out of all the minorities and poor folks."  There were a crapload of Volvos with SOS and "visualize world peace" bumper stickers driven by people who had never interacted with a black or hispanic person other than perhaps their cleaning lady.

I know personally of a planned project to build a job-training center on the east side 20 years ago that got scuttled because the environmental restrictions - intended to keep less desirable things from being built in Tarrytown and 78704 -- made it too much of a hassle and too expensive.

White liberals need to back the fuck up and listen to the grievances, too -- as much or more than the conservative power structure does.

totally agree they give complete lip service and hide their real "not in my backyard" feelings. so why do people keep voting for them?  They are the shittiest types of leaders who will say anything to get elected as long as it doesn't affect them.

[Brisketexan 105124]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

They are the shittiest types of leaders who will say anything to get elected as long as it doesn't affect them.

You answered your own question.

Also, they demonstrate the same utterly pathetic streak that we see in the sycophantic GOP these days - principles schminciples, I just wanna get re-elected.  So, they listen to the loudest/most powerful constituency (is it corporate interests? Is it active, mostly white neighborhood associations?  Depends on where you are -- let's spin the wheel!) to keep getting re-elected, backed by those powerful folks.

Which is why direct action, and the force-multiplier of thousands of voices raised together, is the only real way to bring about any change.  Elected leaders need to be as afraid of the masses as they are of the powerful.  That means the masses need to get scarier, and demonstrate that they can make life suck for the elected official if they are ignored.

I agree -- it would be much easier if they could just buy political support with huge campaign contributions and sweetheart business deals, but you gotta play with the cards you've got.

[dcar00 14182]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

There has already been some significant local and state legislative action (bans on chokeholds, etc.) in just a few months.  Several influential business interests (think large corporations) are both 1) committing financial support to civil rights organizations that can maintain long-term advocacy efforts before legislative bodies and the courts and 2) asserting pressure themselves on governments -- from the federal government on down.  When the largest employers in the country are telling the government that "this shit is broken, and it's in all of our interest to fix it," that spurs action like individual complaints never can.

There's definitely momentum.....as to whether it can be sustained, we'll see.  I'm not optimistic, because the resistance to change is pretty relentless.

the chokehold ban was actually federal also.  as to the rest,  you need to be yelling at Bezos and Zuckerberg to fill their exec VP level with african americans stat.   more hypocritical fuckheads. 

[dcar00 14182]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You answered your own question.

Also, they demonstrate the same utterly pathetic streak that we see in the sycophantic GOP these days - principles schminciples, I just wanna get re-elected.  So, they listen to the loudest/most powerful constituency (is it corporate interests? Is it active, mostly white neighborhood associations?  Depends on where you are -- let's spin the wheel!) to keep getting re-elected, backed by those powerful folks.

Which is why direct action, and the force-multiplier of thousands of voices raised together, is the only real way to bring about any change.  Elected leaders need to be as afraid of the masses as they are of the powerful.  That means the masses need to get scarier, and demonstrate that they can make life suck for the elected official if they are ignored.

I agree -- it would be much easier if they could just buy political support with huge campaign contributions and sweetheart business deals, but you gotta play with the cards you've got.

we are talking about democrat leaders in cities run totally by democrats.  why the fuck don't they fix shit?

Edited July 29, 2020 by dcar00

[Brisketexan 105124]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

the chokehold ban was actually federal also.  as to the rest,  you need to be yelling at Bezos and Zuckerberg to fill their exec VP level with african americans stat.   more hypocritical fuckheads. 

There have been multiple pieces of legislative action addressing chokeholds -- both local and state on top of any federal action.  And it has to be comprehensive to work.

And the super-whiteness of much tech firm leadership is not unnoticed.  But it also goes to the deeper issues that require long-term work to help remedy.  Black people aren't as plugged into the tech world because they don't move in those circles because they don't go to Stanford at the same rate, etc. etc.  A long-term solution involves helping create more stable situations for black families, better educational opportunities for black children, and helping older black students with mentorship and assistance in networking and building career vision and possibility.  It's hard work.  It takes decades.  

That's why -- if you're listening to them -- so many of the demonstration leaders are talking about just those things: basic economic stability and opportunity, a focus on education over incarceration, etc.

But....we like things that feel good and pay off today.  We want all of our policy solutions delivered to us in the drive thru -- we're not willing to wait for the sit-down meal solution we actually need.

[Brisketexan 105124]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

we are talking about democrat leaders in cities run totally by democrats.  why the fuck don't they fix shit?

Because they suck, and haven't been listening -- instead, they've been focusing on the voices who are most likely to impact their re-election chances, which is  just another flavor of "rich and powerful?"  Did you not read my post above?

That's actually the theme that ran through my entire point -- politicians of all stripes are complicit in allowing this shit to fester and get worse.  Whether they are slobbing the knobs of a greedy corporate fatcat or of rich liberal homeowners in Tarrytown who don't want anything to change, the result is the same -- the powerful get served, and the weak get sacrificed.  Doesn't matter what sauce you put on the shit sandwich, red or blue -- it's still a shit sandwich.

Now, we can go down a rabbit hole as to which party SHOULD have the better approach, and doesn't purposefully demonize minorities, but for the purposes of this discussion, that would be a distraction.

In short, if you're looking for me or anyone who has actually spent any time considering the issues being raised by the BLM movement to give democratic leaders a pass, keep looking.

[Wally Pryor 5261]

11 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

we are talking about democrat leaders in cities run totally by democrats.  why the fuck don't they fix shit?

They are trying, and trying really hard.  Today our council discussed, spent time and unanimously declared that racism is "a public health crisis."

See?

[MissingInAction 25068]

3 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm which came first the chicken or the egg.. 

Me. I always come first.

[Incredulity 11669]

4 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

They are trying, and trying really hard.  Today our council discussed, spent time and unanimously declared that racism is "a public health crisis."

See?

Next item:

City Council COLA

 

Adjourned.

[bad_teammate 13195]

The dead-set reliance of many here on angry sarcasm in lieu of any facts or reasoning really tells how vapid and hollow their view on the protests is.

14 hours ago, Stinkpalm said:

So, because the badge got pinned on you, you would magically fall into the group dynamics then?

It's not magic. You keep saying "magically" in childish petulance because you refuse to acknowledge the simple reality that humans are social beings and adapt to group dynamics and how people assimilate.

Quote

And just look the other way when bad cops smashed skulls? How is flooding the ranks with good cops who will speak up and not look the other way, not a way to change the group dynamics? 

Who are "good cops who will speak up"? Where are they? Are you contending that 99.999% of cops now are "bad cops" because they virtually never stop each other or testify against each other?

It's insane.

Quote

Does flooding the agencies with genuinely good people change it? Absolutely.

Please tell me the logistics of how we would "flood the agencies" with "good cops"? We have 800k LEOs right now, and you're contending that virtually all of them are bad because they don't snitch on their fellows, so to FLOOD that 800k we'd need them outnumbered at least 3:1, right? We need to hire 2.4M new cops and EVERY SINGLE ONE has to be willing to snitch their partners out?

lol

13 hours ago, Stinkpalm said:

IS that the truth? How would you know? How many acts by bad cops DO get reported by the good cops that we never hear about? I’d be willing to bet it’s better than “none”. But those don’t make the news. I’m not saying that those bad cops ALWAYS get disciplined or fired when they get reported, but it happens. So maybe it’s just your belief then, that it’s “structurally impossible”

What I see with my eyeballs is cops murdering people on camera while their fellows watch or even help.

What I also see with my eyeballs is their non-prosecution and exoneration.

Are these things deepfaked?

12 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

It was probably one of those peaceful, nonviolent explosives.

 

There are different types of explosives, yes.

7 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

A firework will blind, and or maim a person, so exactly what is your point ?  I know you don't even believe that would be considered violence.  They're using laser pens to blind officers... the pen really is mightier than the sword, but hey it's just a pen....

That "ANTIFA is trying to kill the feds" seems to be an assertion without evidence.

3 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

What I was calling for more like minded people joining the police force to be the change that they demand. Say a Garrett Foster, decided to join APD instead of just rolling around the streets of Austin with his AK.

- Would Foster be hired? 

Remember, police departments can specifically refuse to hire people because they are too smart. They will also not hire people who show defiant characteristics or resistance to authority. And that's just getting them in the door. What happens socially after hiring is a whole other discussion.

[workswithseed 2103]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

So, Portland and Federal Government have reached agreement on "phased withdrawl" of Federal Officers.  Should be interesting.

Yep, I wonder what'll happen afterwards. Is Ted gonna actually use police again, or keep on keeping on.

[Foosters 17856]

3 hours ago, dcar00 said:

every one of those cities has city govt that is completely sympathetic to the black community plight and even have representatives out of proportion to their population in some cases.

Nevermind. Wrong forum

Edited July 29, 2020 by Foosters

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

47 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

Me. I always come first.

Heheheheheheh I think there's a drug for that now.

[landman 559]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

See, here is where you get to hear me crap all over so-called "liberal" cities -- what you posted is the opposite of true.  Those cities -- and I'm mostly focused on Austin here, because that's my greatest observation -- are GREAT at lip-service to the plight.  But when it comes to execution, they are counter-productive.

For example, Austin has long claimed to be SUPER environmentalist -  see Save Our Springs and whatnot.  But the results and true purpose of those initiatives was to stifle development and affordability.  It was really to preserve the "character" of well-to-do mostly white neighborhoods.

I moved to Austin from Houston 30+ years ago.  I immediately saw and heard Austin patting itself on the back about how "progressive" it was (Portland is similar).  And all I could think was "sure, it's easy to be 'progressive' when you segregate the crap out of all the minorities and poor folks."  There were a crapload of Volvos with SOS and "visualize world peace" bumper stickers driven by people who had never interacted with a black or hispanic person other than perhaps their cleaning lady.

I know personally of a planned project to build a job-training center on the east side 20 years ago that got scuttled because the environmental restrictions - intended to keep less desirable things from being built in Tarrytown and 78704 -- made it too much of a hassle and too expensive.

White liberals need to back the fuck up and listen to the grievances, too -- as much or more than the conservative power structure does.

You are completely wrong on the SOS purpose - it had nothing to do with affordability at the time.  It was to stifle development.  The support for SOS and the environmental restrictions were from people that were not in the well-to-do neighborhoods.  They were from older areas of south Austin, Oak Hill, and other areas that in the late 80's did not have the growth and gentrification they have today.  It was Bill Bunch and Mary Arnold and Bridget Shea and others that simply wanted the City to stop development.  The opposition to SOS came from those white neighborhoods as you call them - that's where the developers, builders, members of the real estate community lived.  They fought SOS tooth and nail.  Affordability wasn't even thought about then because Austin was still in the midst of the 80's bust. 

As the project that got scuttled, if it was planned it would have been built.  EV restrictions do not impact planned projects - they are grandfathered.  Now if it was in the planning process and didn't meet the development requirements in the code at the time, then it would not have been built.   And the environmental restrictions on the east side 20 years ago were, and in many cases still are, less restrictive than other areas of the City.  20 years ago a lot of the east side had development incentives by way of being part of the desired development zone which had such things as reduced fees, higher impervious cover allowances, smart housing possibilities, and so forth.  

Lastly, Tarrytown has been built out for decades.  The EV regulations have had little impact there other than for tear downs and rebuilds.

[Js1 85325]

18 hours ago, Message Board User said:

Our discourse today (just like this thread) is almost entirely devoid of critical thinking and substance.

It's just 2 sides yelling past each other using hyperbole/hysterics and strawmen and ad hominem attacks and seeking out their own echo chambers.

Man who participates in toxic discourse bemoans toxic discourse, but with air of superiority 

[MissingInAction 25068]

25 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

This isn't the time or place to harp on about your imaginary sex life.

Dont you kink shame me.

[Brothahorn 10087]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

You answered your own question.

Also, they demonstrate the same utterly pathetic streak that we see in the sycophantic GOP these days - principles schminciples, I just wanna get re-elected.  So, they listen to the loudest/most powerful constituency (is it corporate interests? Is it active, mostly white neighborhood associations?  Depends on where you are -- let's spin the wheel!) to keep getting re-elected, backed by those powerful folks.

Which is why direct action, and the force-multiplier of thousands of voices raised together, is the only real way to bring about any change.  Elected leaders need to be as afraid of the masses as they are of the powerful.  That means the masses need to get scarier, and demonstrate that they can make life suck for the elected official if they are ignored.

I agree -- it would be much easier if they could just buy political support with huge campaign contributions and sweetheart business deals, but you gotta play with the cards you've got.

I know what you are trying to say, but unless you are ready to start demanding physical scalps, that idea only gets you so far. Your best bet and most effective route is taking political scalps. Remember Seattle? The mayor was perfectly fine with Chaz and all the crazy going on, until it came to her house. Big No No. She sent in the cops, didn't she? I wonder if the voters will remember that come election time?

[Brothahorn 10087]

51 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

- Would Foster be hired? 

Remember, police departments can specifically refuse to hire people because they are too smart. They will also not hire people who show defiant characteristics or resistance to authority. And that's just getting them in the door. What happens socially after hiring is a whole other discussion.

So Mayor B_T works to get his city's PD hiring policies changed.

It won't happen overnight, but it dang sure won't change by just standing outside city hall, yelling. Demanding that the same politicians who own the system, change the system. Why would they do that when they are reaping all the benefits?

[MillerEP 30455]

Chicago having a good time though, I wonder if they have any covid concerns:

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by MillerEP

[Bash Riprock 1695]

Would said posters have a change of heart if the peaceful protesters burned down their businesses? If they were business owners?

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

59 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Look man, unlike some, I take no issue with your new cosplay thing and your new BLM outfit is way less disturbing than your old furry getup.

You need to make that a horse head, given his recent neeeighborly activities.  I thought he’d be a lampshade by now.

[bad_teammate 13195]

12 minutes ago, Bash Riprock said:

Would said posters have a change of heart if the peaceful protesters burned down their businesses? If they were business owners?

"Change of heart" in what regard? Sympathy/empathy for the protesters? Yeah, personal proximity definitely changes perspectives for most people.

Not sure what your point is here.

[Brisketexan 105124]

47 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

I know what you are trying to say, but unless you are ready to start demanding physical scalps, that idea only gets you so far. Your best bet and most effective route is taking political scalps. Remember Seattle? The mayor was perfectly fine with Chaz and all the crazy going on, until it came to her house. Big No No. She sent in the cops, didn't she? I wonder if the voters will remember that come election time?

I don;'t disagree.  A significant statement being made by this movement IS that we are demanding more from our elected officials, and if they aren't willing to do it, we'll find ones who will.  Once a movement reaches enough of a critical mass, that threat has legs.  Again, that's why it's important that it be a movement, and not just one guy yelling outside of city hall.  Leaders need to see polls, and realize there are political consequences for them if they don't make the right moves (as that seems to be the only thing that motivates any of them).

Take this shit seriously, and actually take action to bring about real-deal changes, or GTFO.  If you haven't heard that message, you haven't been listening. 

And as for the masses, they don't have the money of the power structure.  But if they gather, unite, and do the work, they have the numbers -- and that can be even more powerful at the ballot box than campaign cash.  Buy all the ads you want....if 51% of the people think you're a worthless POS, you're gone.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

Cops shouldn’t have been playing in the street.  Some guy just wanted to get on down the road.  Did they have a permit?  They looked threatening, throwing stuff, menacing dogs and weapons.  Dude probably feared for his life and acted in self defense.

[Trey3216 15346]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Counterpoint -- why are you concerned about the children?

Hint: it's because you KNOW that we cannot trust the authorities not to turn the hoses and dogs on them.  We've seen it before.  We've seen the modern equivalent in the past months.  And we know we'll see it again.

I wouldn't sent an elementary school student out there.  But my son is under 18, in high school.  He is very politically aware, all on his own (seriously, he's the most ethical, and actually semi-conservative, member of our household).  He has chosen to participate in demonstrations on his own.  He may again.  I will allow it.  I would prefer to keep him out of anything that we know will turn violent (specifically, where the protest leadership etc. isn't trustworthy), but we also know that in any given demonstration, the police may choose to go apeshit.  So, he has a protective kit.  But this is his society -- I hope.  It is his future -- I hope.  Oh, and my kids make their own signs -- we don't tell them what to say.

You should be able to carry an infant to a march with no fear that the police will brutalize you and your child.  But you aren't.  That's the problem.

But can you trust the people you’re protesting with to not act like complete fucktards and end up getting an infant or a young child caught in a situation that was well beyond your intentions?   That’s a big part of the problem as well.  (This is by no means condoning actions by the police, I think you know better than that) 

[krevo 142]

On 7/27/2020 at 1:19 PM, Hate said:

I’ve never carried a gun in my car before. I am not a CHL holder or a member of the NRA. I do have a few guns that I keep for home protection, but I am not one of those people that go to gun ranges every weekend and practice for shootouts. All of that being said, after watching the behavior of these protesters I am more likely to make sure I am armed from now on. I will not be left defenseless if I am on some road just trying to get from point A to point B safely and efficiently. Fortunately, I WFH now and don’t have much cause to go anywhere other than H-E-B and the liquor store. While I agree with the reason for the protests, these have gotten completely out of control. They need to come to an end so that a way forward can be discussed peacefully. The support for these protest was fairly unanimous after the George Floyd murder, but I suspect the longer this goes on the more that support erodes.

1000%

[Brisketexan 105124]

1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

But can you trust the people you’re protesting with to not act like complete fucktards and end up getting an infant or a young child caught in a situation that was well beyond your intentions?   That’s a big part of the problem as well.  (This is by no means condoning actions by the police, I think you know better than that) 

Depends on the cause, the group, the context, etc.

Opted out of one demonstration here because of who was associated with it.  Opted into another because of who was putting it on and how it was organized.  You know, did some homework.  And no....nothing in life is perfectly risk-free, but it's generally not hard to ascertain whether a particular demonstration is going to be run-of-the-mill (seriously, the vast majority of them are -- you don't hear about them because peaceful crowds don't make for juicy news stories) or prone to mayhem and bullshit (and by the way....the police know that, too.  They do their homework beforehand, and they know which events are likely to present a problem, and which are likely to be casual).

Once you get plugged into this a bit, it's not hard to figure out which is which.  And sure, there are some in the middle-iffy category, and you can weigh the uncertainty about those with your risk-tolerance.  

[bad_teammate 13195]

Carrying a gun because you're afraid you'll be put in a dangerous situation because of a protester is not a calm, rational choice based made on actual probabilities. It's an irrational fear response.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Carrying a gun because you're afraid you'll be put in a dangerous situation because of a protester is not a calm, rational choice based made on actual probabilities. It's an irrational fear response.

You really should watch Fox News.  America is under attack by socialist Marxist communist transvestites destroying the fabric of society.  Never mind the rich guy picking your pocket.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Judge Roybeanbag

[Trey3216 15346]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Depends on the cause, the group, the context, etc.

Opted out of one demonstration here because of who was associated with it.  Opted into another because of who was putting it on and how it was organized.  You know, did some homework.  And no....nothing in life is perfectly risk-free, but it's generally not hard to ascertain whether a particular demonstration is going to be run-of-the-mill (seriously, the vast majority of them are -- you don't hear about them because peaceful crowds don't make for juicy news stories) or prone to mayhem and bullshit (and by the way....the police know that, too.  They do their homework beforehand, and they know which events are likely to present a problem, and which are likely to be casual).

Once you get plugged into this a bit, it's not hard to figure out which is which.  And sure, there are some in the middle-iffy category, and you can weigh the uncertainty about those with your risk-tolerance.  

No doubt, I’ve been to several myself.  I’m also pretty good at quickly ascertaining trouble.  Just one of those things a lot of people aren’t good at.  Like I said, merely making a point. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Carrying a gun because you're afraid you'll be put in a dangerous situation because of a protester is not a calm, rational choice based made on actual probabilities. It's an irrational fear response.

Easy for you to say in the safety and comfort of living in Piney Point Village protected by the Memorial Villages PD. Give me a fucking break. I’m with @Hate. I’m about to buy my first handgun and will be taking a CHL course to get licensed as a result of all of this nonsense.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Iconoclast Texan

[bad_teammate 13195]

3 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

You really should watch Fox News.  America is under attack by socialist Marxist communist transvestites destroying the fabric of society.  Never mind the rich guy picking your pocket.

I mean if someone literally lives within that 3-block area where the Portland protests are happening I can imagine some kind of rationalization, but other than that I genuinely don't know what kind of rationale there is.

Also, please BECOME a person who visits ranges often and gets a lot of training and practice if you're going to start carrying. You uh... need the practice and discipline and reinforcement with regard to weapon safety. When I read someone say "I'm carrying because I'm scared and I'm not trained" it's worrying.