Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Sawbonz 27,775]

I mean imagine needing the help of the police to protect you from violent criminals but knowing if you call them there is a really good chance you will be arrested or shot

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Sawbonz

[52-80 19,277]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Maybe people expect a certain percentage of citizens to be criminally violent assholes, but they expect the people they pay to “protect and serve” them not to be?

Nah you’re right. That’s a silly expectation 

I don't expect either groups to be perfect. 

 

I expect multiple more armed encounters, relative to [insert utopic country of choice], result in commensurately higher incidences, relative to [aforementioned country].

 

Now show me how many of these servants and protectors are violent assholes, using rates on a like for like basis, and we can have a conversation

 

 

[Celery Man 21,026]

Personally I think America is a great country and is capable of combatting violence as a social ill that harms us far more than our first world peers.

[Sawbonz 27,775]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I don't expect either groups to be perfect. 

 

I expect multiple more armed encounters, relative to [insert utopic country of choice], result in commensurately higher incidences, relative to [aforementioned country].

 

Now show me how many of these servants and protectors are violent assholes, using rates on a like for like basis, and we can have a conversation

 

 

You really think relative rates of criminally violent behavior of citizens in a given community vs the cops in that community matters?  
 

No, you and I can’t have a conversation 

[52-80 19,277]

9 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I mean imagining needing the help of the police to protect you from violent criminals but knowing if you call them there is a really good chance you will be arrested or shot

 

 

Imagines millions of police encounter every year that didn't end up in arrest or shootings because both parties were civil like they're supposed to be

[dcar00 14,598]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think that we probably need to start by getting the most influential parts of our society to stop “backing the blue” no matter what they do, and excusing most everything they do wrong as “just one guy.” That wild be a fantastic start. Progress is always the goal, not perfection. You can keep beating on that straw man, but you just look silly.

Who gets to be the referee? That same public. When we reach a point that satisfies enough people - not everyone, but enough - then the protests and unrest should hopefully decline significantly. It’s how human psychology works, in both directions.

Shit’s broken. It pisses a lot of people off. If and when credible work and steps are taken, and start showing true commitment and results, fewer of those people will be pissed off. And there’s a critical mass in both directions.

What we do know is that continuing to do what we’ve been doing, and insisting that we really don’t have a problem at all (shit, see several of the posts above)...is not going to advance the ball at all.

then why hasn't there been continuous rioting and civil disobedience since 2014?  did shit get unbroken and then broken again?

[52-80 19,277]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You really think relative rates of criminally violent behavior of citizens in a given community vs the cops in that community matters?  
 

No, you and I can’t have a conversation 

Your right, logic and facts dont matter, only your intuition and feelings do

[Sawbonz 27,775]

Just now, 52-80 said:

Imagines millions of police encounter every year that didn't end up in arrest or shootings because both parties were civil like they're supposed to be

Maybe the cops can just start shooting more unarmed white guys you know even it out 

[Brisketexan 105,567]

Imagines millions of police encounter every year that didn't end up in arrest or shootings because both parties were civil like they're supposed to be

Imagine all the flights that landed safely because the pilots weren’t blind drunk or suicidal psychopaths...pay no attention to the few planes that fly smack into a mountain because of those things.

[Sawbonz 27,775]

Just now, 52-80 said:

Your right, logic and facts dont matter, only your intuition and feelings do

Lol that you think your sophistry is logic

[52-80 19,277]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Maybe the cops can just start shooting more unarmed white guys you know even it out 

If it placates your misplaced sense of injustice

[52-80 19,277]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Imagine all the flights that landed safely because the pilots weren’t blind drunk or suicidal psychopaths...pay no attention to the few planes that fly smack into a mountain because of those things.

Imagine planes crashing into mountains and attributing it to mountains are prejudiced against human beings specifically

[Brisketexan 105,567]

Dp

[52-80 19,277]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Imagine all the flights that landed safely because the pilots weren’t blind drunk or suicidal psychopaths...pay no attention to the few planes that fly smack into a mountain because of those things.

Yup, it's not because flying near mountains is dangerous, it's because mountains hate and target people in particular.

[Willfully Horn 8,086]

41 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

That dude. I just thought of the famous quote.

Had to look it up. Ironic.

[Sawbonz 27,775]

10 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

If it placates your misplaced sense of injustice

more sophistry. I guess that sounded good in your head

A Black person in America is roughly three times more likely than a white person to be killed by police.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/%3FoutputType%3Damp

[Bevo 13,633]

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

more sophistry. I guess that sounded good in your head

A Black person in America is roughly three times more likely than a white person to be killed by police.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/%3FoutputType%3Damp

Just curious what those numbers look like in the projects for blacks, whites, latinos, and asians?

[52-80 19,277]

13 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

more sophistry. I guess that sounded good in your head

A Black person in America is roughly three times more likely than a white person to be killed by police.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/2020/06/11/opinion/statistical-paradox-police-killings/%3FoutputType%3Damp

I bet linking this article seemed good in your head.  Would've helped if you read it.

The actual data is far more complex than in this simplified example, and there isn’t consensus over whether clear evidence of encounter-specific racial bias exists.

 

[52-80 19,277]

Wapo compilation of police shootings since 2015:

 

80% involved victims armed with gun and/or knife.

6.3% were unarmed.  That works out to 6 per year.  In a nation of 300million people.  I'll just call that a wash.

 

95% were men though.  Who's got the pitchfork for sexism?

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 hours ago, dcar00 said:

and of course you know that the police are run by local government and the general public is not the issue.  people don't blindly demand cops "crack skulls" of course you know that but it is a nice sound bite.  the people rioting aren't doing it because of your perceived, not living up to the social contract.  they are rioting because they like breaking shit, causing chaos, and/or free cell phones, jewlery, TV, and apparently bread.

Yep......

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, Celery Man said:

Personally I think America is a great country and is capable of combatting violence as a social ill that harms us far more than our first world peers.

Don't let Mr. Brisket esquire  hear you say that. We suck. the world sucks, cops suck, everybody sucks we're doooooooooomed......

[VABuckeye 2,472]

3 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Maybe the cops can just start shooting more unarmed white guys you know even it out 

Deaths resulting from police

let’s not let facts get in the way of your bullshit.  BTW, Asians who are very good at following rules have basically zero unarmed deaths. 
 

Yes, a higher percentage of blacks are killed but let’s not pretend they are the only race this happens to.  But painting broad strokes seems to suit you and Brisket so there’s absolutely no reason to delve deeper to find out why it happened.  Lets just place blame where you want to place it. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by VABuckeye

[Sawbonz 27,775]

6 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

Deaths resulting from police

let’s not let facts get in the way of your bullshit.  BTW, Asians who are very good at following rules have basically zero unarmed deaths. 

Follow rules? Fuck you. You shouldn’t have to “follow rules” not to get killed by a cop when unarmed

Edited September 13, 2020 by Sawbonz

[52-80 19,277]

16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Follow rules? Fuck you. You shouldn’t have to “follow rules” not to get killed by a cop when unarmed

This is the very latest unarmed shooting captured by WaPo. 

 

Before the incident, he's stopped twice by police for speeding.  At 101mph, and 110mph, and treated courteously in both instances by both officers. 

He's offered a wait in the police car while waiting for tow truck.  Then he attempts to jump into the police car driver's seat. 

 

In the first struggle, cop used pepper spray. 

In the second struggle, they were completely tangled hip to hip, with Maurice (claimed) to be reaching for officers gun, before he got shot.

 

Point to us where was the premeditated, murderous intent of the police here? 

 

 

 

[VABuckeye 2,472]

25 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Follow rules? Fuck you. You shouldn’t have to “follow rules” not to get killed by a cop when unarmed

No fuck you you piece of shit.  Look at the numbers.  You should need to follow rules. Don’t fight. Act like a civil human being and you might be treated as such.  Is that so difficult to understand. 
 

Yes bad things happen. Yes not all cops do the right things but neither do citizens.  Jesus you’re a moron. 

[52-80 19,277]

Here's the next latest unarmed shooting documented by the WaPo:

 

Convicted 4 times of domestic violence assault.  Had 7 protection orders against 3 separate women.  Violated 1 of the orders.  Convicted of unlawful possession of weapon. 

 

Called to police by a woman who he had just beat at 2 separate residences, then fired a gun at her twice, then kidnapped her 1-year-old at gunpoint and took off.

 

Sawbonz is going to weep that this guy didn't get his day in court. 

 

 

 

[Sawbonz 27,775]

16 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

No fuck you you piece of shit.  Look at the numbers.  You should need to follow rules. Don’t fight. Act like a civil human being and you might be treated as such.  Is that so difficult to understand. 
 

Yes bad things happen. Yes not all cops do the right things but neither do citizens.  Jesus you’re a moron. 

Just do what they tell you. Fuck you cocksucker. This guy was jaywalking motherfucker. 
 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Sawbonz

[Sawbonz 27,775]

16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Here's the next latest unarmed shooting documented by the WaPo:

 

Convicted 4 times of domestic violence assault.  Had 7 protection orders against 3 separate women.  Violated 1 of the orders.  Convicted of unlawful possession of weapon. 

 

Called to police by a woman who he had just beat at 2 separate residences, then fired a gun at her twice, then kidnapped her 1-year-old at gunpoint and took off.

 

Sawbonz is going to weep that this guy didn't get his day in court. 

 

 

 

Looks like a good shoot. Show me where I ever said cops are never justified when using lethal force. More false dilemma bullshit

[52-80 19,277]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Looks like a good shoot. Show me where I ever said cops are never justified when using lethal force. More false dilemma bullshit

Nothing false about this bullshit proclamation that cops are violent assholes?

Quote

Maybe people expect a certain percentage of citizens to be criminally violent assholes, but they expect the people they pay to “protect and serve” them not to be?

 

[Sawbonz 27,775]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Nothing false about this bullshit proclamation that cops are violent assholes?

 

No you stupid fuck. There is nothing inconsistent about those two statements. Unless you are a moron or willfully obtuse 

 

more sophistry. You want to extrapolate my statement to every cop which is clearly not what I said. Dishonest obfuscation but not surprising from you

Edited September 13, 2020 by Sawbonz

[52-80 19,277]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

No you stupid fuck. There is nothing inconsistent about those two statements. Unless you are a moron or willfully obtuse 

Keep weeping over criminals and antagonizing the police.  That will surely help things

[Sawbonz 27,775]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Keep weeping over criminals and antagonizing the police.  That will surely help things

Keep excusing criminal behavior by cops. That will help things

[Rougarou 594]

9 hours ago, Celery Man said:

Probably pointless but maybe I can try and translate a bit.

Nobody to almost nobody here wants rioting, or thinks that rioting and destruction are positive*, or that rioting, burning, looting, destruction are things that are good or wanted.

On an individual level, individuals who are rioting and looting and destroying property should be held accountable. Note that this is different than people who are protesting peacefully. There are people who are peacefully protesting who are not rioting. There are people who are engaging in the protests and then rioting. There are people on the "left" side who are rioting and destroying property. There are people on the "right" side who are rioting and destroying property. There are police who are trying to protect private property from destruction in rioting. There are police who are trying to squash the protests or even bash in heads. There are police who may be skirting the law in a theoretical good faith attempt to prevent looting and destruction. There are police who are disregarding the law because they are enemies of the protestors, and are engaged in their own counter protest. And then there is all of this other weird shit with federal troops, which is largely just wrong but lets set that aside for the moment.

When the social contract is broken, the social contract breaks both ways. When the people who are meant to protect and enforce the law instead attack and break the law, people riot and burn shit and act out violently. When we discuss the social contract, we're talking on a macro level. On an individual level individuals should be held responsible for their action. If you want people, on a macro level, to *not* get violent, burn shit down, riot, etc when there is a large feeling that the social contract is broken, tough shit. That's what happens. I'm not saying people should go do that. I'm not saying that nobody should be held accountable for engaging in that. What is being said is that rioting, burning, destruction of property is a consequence of the breakdown of law and order. If you think it shouldn't be, that doesn't matter. It is. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so, for either of us. If you think people are wrong to feel that there is a breach of the social contract, a breakdown of law and order - that's a somewhat different conversation and one that could potentially be productive.

 

* we could get into a whole thing about if change ever happens without unrest, and so through a certain light unrest can be positive, but definitely nobody here wants us to be in that place where that is what is happening

Thanks for taking the time to write this out; makes a lot of sense and I agree with the play-by-play, mostly.

The only point I'd raise, as a fundamental question to the "social contract is broken" crowd is, what if, the social contract is what if BrisketTexan is right and we live in a country with more racists and evil people than normal and good people, even by a simple, narrow majority? Is there still a contract then?

Is that maybe why we are seeing the riots and looting and, maybe one day, revolts? Because that is the legal remedy or indemnification (I'm not a lawyer-- whatever the terms are for punishment for breaking the contract at a later date?) for having entered into a social contract and then, now, wanting no part of it? 

[Celery Man 21,026]

Well I'd say I don't think we do. Or, I think that on aggregate people are often a lot of bad things (stupid, greedy, shortsighted, etc) but not typically evil or inherently bad. That's across the board across the planet. Racism is also really complicated and there are a lot of things that factor into how it grows and manifests, but people aren't just born hating black folks, or asians, whites, hispanic people, arabs, whatever. Getting into what causes cultures to break apart and countries to crumble from within, I'd be way out of my element. I would guess that an enormous rift over the... national identity, fundamental values, legitimacy of government, etc are the things. My own view is that we're in a dangerous place, but it's less to do broadly with "people disagree in the abstract over right and wrong, good and bad" and more to do with "people are living in completely different realities". We can't agree on what is even happening, what things are objectively true and false, and our discourse on those topics is degrading rapidly, and it is stage 4 cancer on everything else.

If we're in a cycle where there can be no reconciliation, no agreement, and we just get into increasingly volatile cycles of this, maybe a switch in power and the same thing different sides, switch back, etc, we're in trouble. I don't think that is what is going to happen, but I think we're in a place where it could. I don't know what that would look like other than that it would suck.

 

[Rougarou 594]

11 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Well I'd say I don't think we do. Or, I think that on aggregate people are often a lot of bad things (stupid, greedy, shortsighted, etc) but not typically evil or inherently bad. That's across the board across the planet. Racism is also really complicated and there are a lot of things that factor into how it grows and manifests, but people aren't just born hating black folks, or asians, whites, hispanic people, arabs, whatever. Getting into what causes cultures to break apart and countries to crumble from within, I'd be way out of my element. I would guess that an enormous rift over the... national identity, fundamental values, legitimacy of government, etc are the things. My own view is that we're in a dangerous place, but it's less to do broadly with "people disagree in the abstract over right and wrong, good and bad" and more to do with "people are living in completely different realities". We can't agree on what is even happening, what things are objectively true and false, and our discourse on those topics is degrading rapidly, and it is stage 4 cancer on everything else.

If we're in a cycle where there can be no reconciliation, no agreement, and we just get into increasingly volatile cycles of this, maybe a switch in power and the same thing different sides, switch back, etc, we're in trouble. I don't think that is what is going to happen, but I think we're in a place where it could. I don't know what that would look like other than that it would suck.

 

The thing about racism is, I don't believe it's about hate at the end of the day. I mean, for some it is, and for the KKK and Nazi's and the vocal minority who are white supremacists sure. But for most people, racism is a lot more dangerous in that it's nothing personal. In a question of "you vs me" or "Them vs Us", it's not about equality but it's about the leverage and power which leads to wealth and comfort and privilege and it's not because I hate you, but it's because you happen to be taking a little bit of my already big pie slice in the pie chart. You know? I wish it weren't this way and if you weren't trying to eat into my finite resources in a zero-sum game then we would be friends, but that's show biz baby.

That type of racism is more dangerous because it's hidden in plain sight and built into the monolithic architecture of The United States of America est. 1607. It's about as fundamentally American as it gets and ain't nothin' changing that except a) a sizable majority of America becoming POC which leads to b) bloody revolution. And that ain't no fun for nobody, especially the dominant class of today.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Rougarou

[Hate 20,157]

The thing about racism is, I don't believe it's about hate at the end of the day. I mean, for some it is, and for the KKK and Nazi's and the vocal minority who are white supremacists sure. But for most people, racism is a lot more dangerous in that it's nothing personal. In a question of "you vs me" or "Them vs Us", it's not about equality but it's about the leverage and power which leads to wealth and comfort and privilege and it's not because I hate you, but it's because you happen to be taking a little bit of my already big pie slice in the pie chart. You know? I wish it weren't this way and if you weren't trying to eat into my finite resources in a zero-sum game then we would be friends, but that's show biz baby.
That type of racism is more dangerous because it's hidden in plain sight and built into the monolithic architecture of The United States of America est. 1607. It's about as fundamentally American as it gets and ain't nothin' changing that except a) a sizable majority of America becoming POC which leads to b) bloody revolution. And that ain't no fun for nobody, especially the dominant class of today.
 

And then it leads to the exact same thing happening.

[Texas_Rocks 347]

Tactics:


This has to be fake.

[Captainant 27,970]

2 hours ago, Texas_Rocks said:

Tactics:


This has to be fake.

How could those citizens stand idly by and just watch someone slowly die when the smallest of action on their part could make a difference???

[Celery Man 21,026]

It seems like the sherrifs were already inside the hospital when that happened, but it is disgusting either way.

[Brisketexan 105,567]

It seems like the sherrifs were already inside the hospital when that happened, but it is disgusting either way.

It also seems that the “blocking the hospital” may have been overplayed by the LACSD, who aren’t exactly a trustworthy source of info.

I hope the deputies survive, and the shooter is brought to justice. This shit is only getting worse.

[bad_teammate 13,298]

 

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It also seems that the “blocking the hospital” may have been overplayed by the LACSD, who aren’t exactly a trustworthy source of info.

I hope the deputies survive, and the shooter is brought to justice. This shit is only getting worse.

That is put very mildly.

[bad_teammate 13,298]

We are 100% into "every time I'm mad a black person over something it's BLM" territory here in DT.

[Message Board User 12,397]

 

[Celery Man 21,026]

Police interaction with one of those fake journalists, some outfit called NPR. I like when they grind her phone into the pavement.

 

[Parliament 14,367]

17 hours ago, Message Board User said:

 

I hope his parents are proud.

[52-80 19,277]

5 minutes ago, Parliament said:

I hope his parents are proud.

how dare you assume ze/zir's gender

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

16 minutes ago, Parliament said:

I hope his parents are proud.

Usually with kids that fucked up the parents have played a role.

[BabaYaga 15,371]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:34 PM, Thatguy said:

Also, one side is destroying businesses. The other side is taking lives. Yet here we are talking about businesses and those poor people who own them.

Speaking of full of shit...jesus

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

Speaking of full of shit...jesus

You're addressing someone who has no idea of what the loss of a business does to a small business owner, his family, the people who might work for him, their families, the businesses around him, the folks who supplied his now boarded up business, the loss of tax revenue for a locality, the people in a community who may have relied on that business for any number of reasons, the visual blight occurring as people have to now look at a third world like street scape.  

Yeah ...... never mind.... it's really nothing........... fuck them....

The posters calling it much ado about nothing either have no jobs, or are just stupid beyond belief, and I would also say are probably major hypocrites as if they were in that situation would be singing a far different tune.

[davidg 4,040]

18 hours ago, Message Board User said:

 

Please post up when it actually catches one.  I'm sure the results will be funny but not for the reasons it thinks.