Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

1 -- you stated that a shit ton of people don't care about bitching, so long as it's peaceful. I pointed to an example of a substantial group - this wasn't a crowd of 10 people, it was a crowd of thousands -- who publicly acted contrary to your stated position.  And we can find many more -- people who indeed are offended by the very idea of black people daring to speak up.   Shit, read the comments on any news story about a peaceful protest or public statement.  It ain't just one guy.  It's a cascade.  Sorry that refutation upsets you, but it doesn't make it any less true -- a shitload of Americans are pissed off that black people are even speaking up.

2) I'm glad that YOU don't feel that way.  Really, I am.  It's what we need.

3) but plenty -- as in not one or two, but a sizable number, enough to launch into an audible chorus of boos, for example -- feel otherwise.  What pisses them off isn't violence, it's the message itself, even when presented in the most milquetoast verbiage of "unity."  That's a problem.  It speaks poorly of our society.

that basically sums up the animus of this thread.

[VABuckeye 2472]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

What pisses them off isn't violence, it's the message itself,

Or they just went to see a damned football game and forget about the problems plauging our society for a few hours.

[52-80 19097]

18 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

um, i pointed out it has been 29 years since the rodney king beating. you focus on the riots. i focus on the police beating people up.

 

2 examples of near universal condemnation.  people involved in both should be living in prison.

 

next

 

[Brisketexan 104629]

1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

Or they just went to see a damned football game and forget about the problems plauging our society for a few hours.

And some guys linking arms, in UNITY, not in protest of anything, but sending the damned message that folks here seem to think is the right one, "we're all in this together, and should be treated equally," pissed them off.  WTF?  I mean, seriously.....it's the most milquetoast, innocuous and positive message I can think of, and it elicited ANGER.  That's messed up, man.

[hayden_horn 11360]

3 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

2 examples of near universal condemnation.  people involved in both should be living in prison.

 

next

 

the rodney king officers were acquitted. "near universal condemnation" indeed. riots are the result of things. not the cause of things.

hell, my dad told me that rodney king earned his beating because he ran from police and was high on drugs. "near universal condemnation" my ass.

[Guest Lobo]

One of those cops ended up becoming the private driver for Al Gore and D.L. Hughley.  How's that for fucking weird?  

[Brisketexan 104629]

4 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

2 examples of near universal condemnation.  people involved in both should be living in prison.

 

next

 

Except.....maybe you remember what set the LA riots off?  It wasn't Rodney King's beating.  It was the acquittal, by a Simi Valley jury, of all 4 LA cops.  The "unequal justice" issue was what set off the unrest.

And after the fact, the justice system didn't perform particularly well -- the cops later faced federal Civil Rights charges, two of the four were convicted and served sentences, but not very long ones.

And the men who beat Reginal Denny were convicted, but not of the biggest charges, and their sentences were light in light of the horrific nature of their attacks.

The entire sequence demonstrated a broken society, a broken PD, and a broken system of justice.  You and I think that all parties involved in the sequence should have faced much more serious consequences than they did.  That we can agree on that.....but our culture and systems can't produce that result.....that's the problem.

[BabaYaga 15213]

13 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

Or they just went to see a damned football game and forget about the problems plauging our society for a few hours.

THIS

[VABuckeye 2472]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And some guys linking arms, in UNITY, not in protest of anything, but sending the damned message that folks here seem to think is the right one, "we're all in this together, and should be treated equally," pissed them off.  WTF?  I mean, seriously.....it's the most milquetoast, innocuous and positive message I can think of, and it elicited ANGER.  That's messed up, man.

I know but America right?  We have the freedom to express our beliefs whether right or wrong or whether others agree or disagree.

[52-80 19097]

12 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

the rodney king officers were acquitted. "near universal condemnation" indeed. riots are the result of things. not the cause of things.

hell, my dad told me that rodney king earned his beating because he ran from police and was high on drugs. "near universal condemnation" my ass.

Well gee, you should go smash your mom and your grandmas car because you disagreed with your dad

[Brisketexan 104629]

5 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I know but America right?  We have the freedom to express our beliefs whether right or wrong or whether others agree or disagree.

Sure.  And nobody here is saying those fans didn't have a "right" to boo.  We're observing that it was shitty, and demonstrates a significant strain of shittiness in our society.  That's all.

[VABuckeye 2472]

Unfortunately our society is not lacking in shitty people and shitty behaviour.

[52-80 19097]

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

haven't killings by police(all races as well as black) dropped dramatically over the past 30 years?

 

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

They've dropped significantly, as has all crime.

Magic.  What you and Thatguy argued against for the last 30 pages: Killing scales to crime.  We have/had lots of killing because we have/had lots of crime.

 

Can you put to rest now the contention that there are alarming numbers of *unjust* police murders?

 

And if so, the remaining issues is racially-imbalanced "negative interaction". 

 

Which is, to be clear, an embarrassing and UNDESIRABLE thing..... ...but is that worthy of highway blockages and mass rioting?

 

But....incarceration rates have gone way up.  And the factor above doesn't measure for other negative police interactions, of course.  It's a mixed bag.

Criminal sentencing is too punitive and draconian, another thing we agree on.

[hayden_horn 11360]

10 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Well gee, you should go smash your mom and your grandmas car because you disagreed with your dad

this is beyond stupid. is this how you actually conduct yourself normally?

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And some guys linking arms, in UNITY, not in protest of anything, but sending the damned message that folks here seem to think is the right one, "we're all in this together, and should be treated equally," pissed them off.  WTF?  I mean, seriously.....it's the most milquetoast, innocuous and positive message I can think of, and it elicited ANGER.  That's messed up, man.

Imagine I went to your daughter's Kindergarten graduation and asked that all the kids stand up, join arms, and have a moment of silence for all of the children that are sexually abused every year. 

Would your first thought be "Yes. This is a noble cause that we must recognize it" or would it be "is this really the forum for this?"

[bad_teammate 13132]

"Just demonstrate peacefully!! .... Wait, no, not like that."

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Imagine I went to your daughter's Kindergarten graduation and asked that all the kids stand up, join arms, and have a moment of silence for all of the children that are sexually abused every year. 

Would your first thought be "Yes. This is a noble cause that we must recognize it" or would it be "is this really the forum for this?"

so, your go-to is to compare professional, adult athletes with kindergartners? 

i mean, i understand your "is this really the forum for this" question. but, worldwide, athletes have been fighting against racism for more than a decade. the english premier league, the champions league, rugby, all these leagues have been doing this. then, when it happens here, it's suddenly some fucking controversy? get the fuck out of here with that. it is absolutely the forum, because african-americans have a voice and they should use that voice. there's a reason the nba leaned really fucking hard into black lives matter. why do you think that is?

[Brisketexan 104629]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Imagine I went to your daughter's Kindergarten graduation and asked that all the kids stand up, join arms, and have a moment of silence for all of the children that are sexually abused every year. 

Would your first thought be "Yes. This is a noble cause that we must recognize it" or would it be "is this really the forum for this?"

Nevermind the red herring of whether it's an age appropriate discussion - that really has no bearing on the issue at hand.  So, let's go with a high school class.  If members of that class had been consistent and outspoken voices for awareness of ongoing sexual abuse, had been attacked for doing so for years, and then it turns out that sexual abuse really IS a big problem in their community......then yeah, if the students want to stand together and make that statement of "we all stand together against sexual abuse" because it's important to them, I'm fine with it.  I'm sure as shit not going to boo it.

[52-80 19097]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

this is beyond stupid. is this how you actually conduct yourself normally?

Because your dads opinion negating the weight of majority opinion, is a really intelligent thing to claim

[Brisketexan 104629]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

so, your go-to is to compare professional, adult athletes with kindergartners? 

i mean, i understand your "is this really the forum for this" question. but, worldwide, athletes have been fighting against racism for more than a decade. the english premier league, the champions league, rugby, all these leagues have been doing this. then, when it happens here, it's suddenly some fucking controversy? get the fuck out of here with that. it is absolutely the forum, because african-americans have a voice and they should use that voice. there's a reason the nba leaned really fucking hard into black lives matter. why do you think that is?

And importantly, they have a particularly relevant voice. Like it or not, the biggest, most visible representation of powerful black voices in our society is in athletics and entertainment.  If you have a position of power, and a platform.....it's not a big extrapolation to show that you also have a responsibility to use that power and platform for good.

We don't gripe when JJ Watt uses his power and platform to raise millions for hurricane relief.  Nor should we.  It's what a good person with that kind of position should do.  And hey, HE didn't need any relief, he's a millionaire, he's fine.  But he did it for other people -- solely for other people.

Why do we gripe when black athletes do similarly?  When they call attention to the plight of a community, and ask that we address it not with Gofundme clicks, but with real work to build a more just society?

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Because your dads opinion negating the weight of majority opinion, is a really intelligent thing to claim

they. were. acquitted.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

get the fuck out of here with that.

OK. Thanks for your 2 cents. You've changed my mind on the subject. Well done.

[BabaYaga 15213]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

this is beyond stupid. is this how you actually conduct yourself normally?

Considering those areas still haven't recovered from the riots.  Building, stores, malls that were once, are still gone.  Baltimore is the same.  So there is an understanding of the rage and consternation, but also the cost.  The communities most at risk are the ones devastated the most....often, as we are seeing, by outside actors who don't even live there.  Are these communities just part of the cost of progress?  The communities calling the loudest for MORE policing as crime rates surge?

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

OK. Thanks for your 2 cents. You've changed my mind on the subject. Well done.

your mind never was getting changed, dude. 

fifa started this activism seven fucking years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_association_football

this is not new. it is not unique necessarily to america, though we have a unique racist past to most countries. the world has decided that, yes, athletics is the platform for this. 

how does this image make you feel in your feels?

1968. 

that is 52 fucking years ago, more than a half century.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Act 2: Scene 4: In which concern trolls pretend to care about underdeveloped minority communities.

*enter two cargo-beshorted men, taking their seats at the outdoor patio at BreWingZ, lowering their distressed-American-flag-pattern neck gaiters*

Man 1: "Look, we all want equality, but look what they're doing to their own communities!"

[workswithseed 2037]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Considering those areas still haven't recovered from the riots.  Building, stores, malls that were once, are still gone.  Baltimore is the same.  So there is an understanding of the rage and consternation, but also the cost.  The communities most at risk are the ones devastated the most....often, as we are seeing, by outside actors who don't even live there.  Are these communities just part of the cost of progress?  The communities calling the loudest for MORE policing as crime rates surge?

I get it, but as long as they protest legally. I don't care if they don't have an address there to protest. Now rioting is a different story.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

your mind never was getting changed, dude. 

[hayden_horn 11360]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Considering those areas still haven't recovered from the riots.  Building, stores, malls that were once, are still gone.  Baltimore is the same.  So there is an understanding of the rage and consternation, but also the cost.  The communities most at risk are the ones devastated the most....often, as we are seeing, by outside actors who don't even live there.  Are these communities just part of the cost of progress?  The communities calling the loudest for MORE policing as crime rates surge?

where have i supported riots? 

riots are bad. they are a very undesirable result from a thing that happens.

the problem here is that you (and so many others on this thread) conflate black lives matter with supporting of rioting. nobody wants any rioting. even those rioting would prefer to live a more comfortable, equal life. sure, i would agree that there are some anarchists with which society has to deal, but on the whole, most of these protests are actually peaceful.

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

i notice you did not respond to the body of the post, instead just demonstrating that the smell of your own farts is your only interest.

[BabaYaga 15213]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

conflate black lives matter with supporting of rioting

Then my guess is we have many leaders of various BLM groups openly condemning the riots and looting?  Some have, most have defended them.  This has been said ad nauseum, but here goes another:  

 

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

most of these protests are actually peaceful.

Nobody is denying that.  Many of us have even participated in them initially.  But like we saw with the Tea Party, the fringes are painting the entire movement and the movement itself (BLM) is defending the actions of the fringes.  

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

where have i supported riots? 

The same time we supported racism, obviously. You throw accusations around but get offended when hit with them. You are the worst kind of shit talker.

[VABuckeye 2472]

8 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

your mind never was getting changed, dude. 

fifa started this activism seven fucking years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_association_football

this is not new. it is not unique necessarily to america, though we have a unique racist past to most countries. the world has decided that, yes, athletics is the platform for this. 

how does this image make you feel in your feels?

1968. 

that is 52 fucking years ago, more than a half century.

I was 7 years old when that happened and remember it.  I had no clue WHY they were doing it but I didn't have a problem with the act either.  That's a 7 year old kid in Pensacola, FL which at the time was basically east Mobile, AL.

[BabaYaga 15213]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Act 2: Scene 4: In which concern trolls pretend to care about underdeveloped minority communities.

*enter two cargo-beshorted men, taking their seats at the outdoor patio at BreWingZ, lowering their distressed-American-flag-pattern neck gaiters*

Man 1: "Look, we all want equality, but look what they're doing to their own communities!"

Not sure why any of you engage BT. Just ignore him and move on.

I deleted a post here that BT is now using to claim everyone is a white supremacist. BT if you're just going to name call please find another board to post on. 

-Blacklab

 

[Rougarou 594]

14 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Act 2: Scene 4: In which concern trolls pretend to care about underdeveloped minority communities.

*enter two cargo-beshorted men, taking their seats at the outdoor patio at BreWingZ, lowering their distressed-American-flag-pattern neck gaiters*

Man 1: "Look, we all want equality, but look what they're doing to their own communities!"

I mean, hilarious.

[hayden_horn 11360]

14 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

The same time we supported racism, obviously. You throw accusations around but get offended when hit with them. You are the worst kind of shit talker.

um, where did i call anyone racist?

this is seriously the currency of this thread. some weird false equivalency. never have i supported riots, and i am fairly sure i haven't called anyone a racist, though i'll own up to it if i have in the past 74 pages. i'll see if you can mine up a quote.

now if pointing out to you that athletics has been a platform against racism for fucking decades across the globe, in the olympics and international soccer, and only just in the last couple of years the nfl and nba makes you feel racist for being against it, that's not my fault.

 

[BabaYaga 15213]

6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

and only just in the last couple of years the nfl and nba makes you feel racist for being against it, that's not my fault.

Nice straw man and summation of the BS narrative that won't die....

[hayden_horn 11360]

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Nice straw man and summation of the BS narrative that won't die....

uncanny, the unwillingness to have a discussion.

he was the one to suggest that athletics and racism activism don't mix. "is this the right platform?" he also accused me of calling people racist, which i do not recall doing.

Edited September 18, 2020 by hayden_horn

[BabaYaga 15213]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

uncanny, the unwillingness to have a discussion.

he was the one to suggest that athletics and racism activism don't mix. "is this the right platform?" he also accused me of calling people racist, which i do not recall doing.

No he did not - he offered the explanation that many, many people see sports as an escape and outlet from the stresses of their day and do not want the intersection of politics to disrupt this.  

And yeah, you kind of did, and anyone else that "feels racist for being against it"

[dcar00 14036]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

Or they just went to see a damned football game and forget about the problems plauging our society for a few hours.

This. but if the employers of the players let them do it so be it.  who knows how many were actually boing and given the small attendance allowed I am sure these were the diehards of the diehards.  NFL fans gonna NFL fan though.  half of them were probably drunk by the time they got to their seats.  

[dcar00 14036]

also, its kind of like not talking politics or religion in a business setting. remember the NFL is a business(as we are told so many times by the players and others). the NFL and teams are the supplier and the fans are the paying customers.  you can bring up politics or religion but don't be surprised if you piss someone off by talking about it in the business setting.

that said.  the people running the biz are OK with it so they are OK with the consequences if it backfires with the customer.  it won't, which is fine.  the in person customer doesn't drive the revenue needle that much for them.  Its all about TV.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

the people running the biz are OK with it so they are OK with the consequences if it backfires with the customer. 

Nah. They'll claim the ex-fans are racist.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

22 hours ago, Foosters said:

This thread is 70 pages of one side trying to make it only about the deaths, while the other side tries to redirect to the larger picture.

Imagine a thread about the wildfires in the west where half the posters continued to downplay it because only dozens of died out of the 10s of millions that live in the region.

One side uses facts and statistics, the other anecdotal evidence. 

[dcar00 14036]

8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Nah. They'll claim the ex-fans are racist.

probably.  who would want a customer if the business believes they are a racist.  customers are fungible....until they aren't.

IMO, the reality is that I don't expect the NFL or College Fball to have any real issue making money and getting eyeballs/TV Revenue for the foreseeable future, regardless of protests.  NFL redzone is the best way to watch the NFL anyway.

I am enjoying the shit out of the NHL playoffs though, being a Dallas fan.

[workswithseed 2037]

21 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

also, its kind of like not talking politics or religion in a business setting. remember the NFL is a business(as we are told so many times by the players and others). the NFL and teams are the supplier and the fans are the paying customers.  you can bring up politics or religion but don't be surprised if you piss someone off by talking about it in the business setting.

that said.  the people running the biz are OK with it so they are OK with the consequences if it backfires with the customer.  it won't, which is fine.  the in person customer doesn't drive the revenue needle that much for them.  Its all about TV.

 

Don't talk about Hong Kong. Don't wear socks for the Dallas Officers that were killed.

[dcar00 14036]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

Don't talk about Hong Kong. Don't wear socks for the Dallas Officers that were killed.

agreed. certain non discussions are OK for business and certain non discussions aren't.

[hayden_horn 11360]

55 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

No he did not - he offered the explanation that many, many people see sports as an escape and outlet from the stresses of their day and do not want the intersection of politics to disrupt this.  

And yeah, you kind of did, and anyone else that "feels racist for being against it"

he basically accused me of throwing racist accusations around in the post where i said "feels racist for being against it," which is actually quoted in the post where i said that.

[Willfully Horn 7917]

While waiting on my copy of “Gulag Archipelago,” I did some more digging.

Politifact turns to a Hoover senior fellow for the following;

“Noting Cullors’ declaration of being Marxist trained, "one has to take that seriously: if the leadership says it is Marxist, then there's a good chance they are," said Russell Berman, a professor at Stanford University and a senior fellow at its conservative Hoover Institution who has written critically about Marxism.

But "this does not mean every supporter is Marxist — Marxists often have used ‘useful idiots.’ And a Marxist movement can be more or less radical, at different points in time," he said.

Black Lives Matter’s "emphatic support for gender identity politics sets it apart from historical Marxism," and the goals listed on its website "do not appear to be expressly anti-capitalist, which would arguably be a Marxist identifier," Berman added.”“

Perhaps learning more about Marxism will shed some light in the subject. As it stands, I don’t understand the difficulty in showing your work, and wonder why something is commonly believed when the facts are elusive.

 

 

[BabaYaga 15213]

5 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

probably.  who would want a customer if the business believes they are a racist.  customers are fungible....until they aren't.

IMO, the reality is that I don't expect the NFL or College Fball to have any real issue making money and getting eyeballs/TV Revenue for the foreseeable future, regardless of protests.  NFL redzone is the best way to watch the NFL anyway.

I am enjoying the shit out of the NHL playoffs though, being a Dallas fan.

Rating are TANKING, so who knows?  Much of the revenue is add based, which is precipitated on attendance and rating.  Revenue utilized for among many things, contracts - of which more than a few are tied to collective bargaining.  So.....doing the math, we are talking about in 2020 48 percent of the league’s revenue after deductions, about one percentage point more than the current 47-53 percent split with owners. That percentage point is worth about $150 million a year to the players, given the league’s current revenue of about $15 billion. 

So if ratings continue to tank, impacting the direct salaries of the players, are they all going to pull a Lebron after China said shut up and dribble?  He sure did...

[hayden_horn 11360]

4 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

agreed. certain non discussions are OK for business and certain non discussions aren't.

my company has active pride and blm stuff going on. at the highest levels. huge, international organization.

[BabaYaga 15213]

4 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

he basically accused me of throwing racist accusations around in the post where i said "feels racist for being against it," which is actually quoted in the post where i said that.

in·ti·mate²

/ˈin(t)əˌmāt/

 

verb

past tense: intimated; past participle: intimated

1. imply or hint.

   "he had already intimated that he might not be able to continue"