Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[MillerEP 30339]

[BabaYaga 15210]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

I actually AM in the middle of this issue.

[Brothahorn 10085]

Can't have justice without stopping by Bloomingdales and Walgreens. 

[Bevo 13526]

 

Well they said everything must go.

[leaf 681]

48 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

 

Brisket

[Brisketexan 104596]

1 hour ago, leaf said:

 

 

Brisket

Cool.  We can post 1,000 -- probably 10,000 -- images of bad shit going down in protests.

We can do the same thing -- post just as many images -- of peaceful protests and demonstrators (I ain't gonna do it -- ain't nobody got time for that).

We can also do the same thing for images of over-the-top/illegal police violence and brutality, both over time, and in connection with the recent demonstrations.  Folks are actually doing it; here's just a couple of sites that are aggregating such things -- some of them contain other images/videos, but they are all of the same theme: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1YmZeSxpz52qT-10tkCjWOwOGkQqle7Wd1P7ZM1wMW0E/htmlview?pru=AAABcql6DI8*mIHYeMnoj9XWUp3Svb_KZA#

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/police-violence-george-floyd.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52932611

And we could keep doing this.

But what's the fucking point?  The BLM movement is clearly nothing but terrorists, and they need to be crushed and put down like rabid dogs.  There is no middle ground here.

[Hate 20103]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool.  We can post 1,000 -- probably 10,000 -- images of bad shit going down in protests.

We can do the same thing -- post just as many images -- of peaceful protests and demonstrators (I ain't gonna do it -- ain't nobody got time for that).

We can also do the same thing for images of over-the-top/illegal police violence and brutality, both over time, and in connection with the recent demonstrations.  Folks are actually doing it; here's just a couple of sites that are aggregating such things -- some of them contain other images/videos, but they are all of the same theme: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1YmZeSxpz52qT-10tkCjWOwOGkQqle7Wd1P7ZM1wMW0E/htmlview?pru=AAABcql6DI8*mIHYeMnoj9XWUp3Svb_KZA#

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/police-violence-george-floyd.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52932611

And we could keep doing this.

But what's the fucking point?  The BLM movement is clearly nothing but terrorists, and they need to be crushed and put down like rabid dogs.  There is no middle ground here.

Literally nobody has said this.  Nobody.  They have said that the rioters need to be stopped. 

[Brisketexan 104596]

Just now, Hate said:

Literally nobody has said this.  Nobody.  They have said that the rioters need to be stopped. 

They've said a metric shitton more and farther than that, and you know it.  Go back and read just some of Onboard's posts (as just one example) from when I started to engage on this thread.

[Hate 20103]

The focus has been on the rioters and how they have managed to shift the focus away from the legitimate message of BLM.  Now, BT will be here shortly to say how if we are distracted by the rioters then we didn't really believe in BLM anyway and round and round we go all the while going nowhere. 

[Brisketexan 104596]

On 7/28/2020 at 2:27 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

And while we're at it this whole lying, BS mythology that these protests are non violent needs to stop. They're intended, and coordinated by a number of participants to become violent, and destructive.  I'm seeing it right here in my hometown for 2 straight months.

 

On 7/28/2020 at 2:46 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

 Every protest in Richmond Va. has turned violent, Portland, the CHAZ, CHOP  (whatever BS name you want to call them) all of these protests have turned into violent riots, and looting.

These are followed every now and then with the offhand  "sure, some protests/protesters are peaceful," but come on -- read that above.  And we can pull dozens more like them from the thread.  Stop.  Just stop.

[Brisketexan 104596]

3 minutes ago, Hate said:

The focus has been on the rioters and how they have managed to shift the focus away from the legitimate message of BLM.

Well, I mean.....he and I DID post source material from the 1960s that literally said and did the EXACT same thing with respect to MLK and the Civil Rights movement.  It's a stock play.  It's an easy and lazy way to get to do what you wanted to all along -- dismiss a movement that makes you really uncomfortable.

It's been going on for decades.  Don't see why we should expect any different now.

Oh, and as for the recent violence in Richmond (some of it fomented by white supremacists), local officials THANKED BLM folks for helping keep the peace:

Quote

Six people were arrested. The mayor of Richmond thanked the Black Lives Matter protesters he said tried to stop the white supremacists from spearheading the violence.

“Their mission is simple, not the Richmond we know,” said Mayor Levar Stoney.

But, you know....BLM, rioters and marxists, marxists and rioters.  Their message, gosh durn it, might be okay, but we just can't listen to it anymore because they delegitimized it.  Darn shame, too.  I mean, we REALLY wanted to pursue police reform and racial injustice, I promise.....but once we saw a Starbucks window get smashed in Philly, we said to hell with it, we're good with the way things are.

[Hate 20103]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

These are followed every now and then with the offhand  "sure, some protests/protesters are peaceful," but come on -- read that above.  And we can pull dozens more like them from the thread.  Stop.  Just stop.

He's talking about the rioters. Has he not said multiple times, as we all have ad nauseam, the he supports the movement but not he riots?

 

 

[Captainant 27447]

On 7/28/2020 at 2:46 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

Broad brush strokes ?  Are you seriously trying that ?  Are you secretly BT ?  Every protest in Richmond Va. has turned violent, Portland, the CHAZ, CHOP  (whatever BS name you want to call them) all of these protests have turned into violent riots, and looting.

I'm well aware there are many people who aren't protesting violently. One only has to look at the coordinated attacks by mobs to see they are indeed planned before hand to turn violent.  Please stop being obtusely ignorant of what is caught on video in every city where these peaceful protests are occurring.  Lying about it doesn't make the reality go away.

Funny you should mention Richmond, VA...

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/07/27/police-richmond-riots-instigated-by-white-supremacists-disguised-as-black-lives-matter/

Quote

RICHMOND, Va. – Riots in downtown Richmond over the weekend were instigated by white supremacists under the guise of Black Lives Matter, according to law enforcement officials.

Protesters tore down police tape and pushed forward toward Richmond police headquarters, where they set a city dump truck on fire.

Police declared the event an “unlawful assembly” and ordered people to leave, later deploying tear gas.

Six people were arrested. The mayor of Richmond thanked the Black Lives Matter protesters he said tried to stop the white supremacists from spearheading the violence.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

24 minutes ago, Hate said:

Now, BT will be here shortly to say how if we are distracted by the rioters then we didn't really believe in BLM anyway and round and round we go all the while going nowhere. 

Am I wrong?

No one here says the riots are cool and good. No one has said the rioters who break laws shouldn't be prosecuted. So what do we actually disagree about here?

The difference is focus. Many of you are almost universally focused on lawless behavior. Some of us are almost universally focused on government injustice. That's basically the only difference right?

[Hate 20103]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Am I wrong?

No one here says the riots are cool and good. No one has said the rioters who break laws shouldn't be prosecuted. So what do we actually disagree about here?

The difference is focus. Many of you are almost universally focused on lawless behavior. Some of us are almost universally focused on government injustice. That's basically the only difference right?

No.  A lot of us on this board are absolutely fed up with the things we saw in Minnesota and other places around the country.  We aren't the ones you need to convince.  The ones you need to get something done are the ones being distracted and I think that is what a lot of us have been saying...maybe poorly.  I don't need to be convinced to end the war on drugs.  I don't need to be convinced we need real police reform.  I don't need to be convinced that we need judicial reforms.  If it were up to me, I'd let every single drug offender without a violent record out of jail tonight and have their record expunged.  If it were up to me, I'd prosecute every single bad cop to the fullest and do what is possible to fix the issue. I am not the one you need to convince. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

9 minutes ago, Hate said:

The ones you need to get something done are the ones being distracted and I think that is what a lot of us have been saying...maybe poorly.

Who and where are these people?

[VABuckeye 2472]

23 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Am I wrong?

No one here says the riots are cool and good. No one has said the rioters who break laws shouldn't be prosecuted. So what do we actually disagree about here?

The difference is focus. Many of you are almost universally focused on lawless behavior. Some of us are almost universally focused on government injustice. That's basically the only difference right?

What you don’t seem to get is that many of us (I’m a small business owner) can be focused on both. I’m very upset by the destruction and lawlessness.  I’m also very upset that a segment of our population doesn’t get a fair shake.  Why can’t you get that?

Edited July 31, 2020 by VABuckeye

[Incredulity 11564]

55 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool.  We can post 1,000 -- probably 10,000 -- images of bad shit going down in protests.

We can do the same thing -- post just as many images -- of peaceful protests and demonstrators (I ain't gonna do it -- ain't nobody got time for that).

We can also do the same thing for images of over-the-top/illegal police violence and brutality, both over time, and in connection with the recent demonstrations.  Folks are actually doing it; here's just a couple of sites that are aggregating such things -- some of them contain other images/videos, but they are all of the same theme: 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1YmZeSxpz52qT-10tkCjWOwOGkQqle7Wd1P7ZM1wMW0E/htmlview?pru=AAABcql6DI8*mIHYeMnoj9XWUp3Svb_KZA#

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/police-violence-george-floyd.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52932611

And we could keep doing this.

But what's the fucking point?  The BLM movement is clearly nothing but terrorists, and they need to be crushed and put down like rabid dogs.  There is no middle ground here.

Wait... you’re now advocating for middle ground?

 

L

O

fucking

L

 

good god.

[VABuckeye 2472]

3 hours ago, Js1 said:

This is called projection.   Notice you only call out Brisket and not anyone on the far opposite end. 

This is what people do when they have no rebuttal. Gaslighting motherfucker. 

I called out Brisket because 1) I think he’s genuinely a good person and 2) because I believe he’s taking a radical stance.  Not saying you aren’t a decent person as well.

[Hate 20103]

13 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Who and where are these people?

Why do you do nothing but ask rhetorical questions? 

[BNB 100]

 

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2020/07/30/did-white-supremacists-really-orchestrate-riots-in-richmond-its-complicated/

[Brisketexan 104596]

I called out Brisket because 1) I think he’s genuinely a good person and 2) because I believe he’s taking a radical stance.  Not saying you aren’t a decent person as well.

How is my stance - which pretty clearly calls for any individuals committing violent criminal acts to face consequences, while not using criminal acts by those individuals as a basis to either 1) condemn and dismiss an entire movement, and/or 2) as an excuse to use violent, often military force against entire groups (including people who aren’t doing anything violent)...radical?

I mean, I guess in America 2020, that probably IS radical, now that I think about it.

[bad_teammate 13132]

11 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

What you don’t seem to get is that many of us (I’m a small business owner) can be focused on both. I’m very upset by the destruction and lawlessness.  I’m also very upset that a segment of our population doesn’t get a fair shake.  Why can’t you get that?

No one here thinks looting is good and should be unpunished in a fair criminal justice system.

I haven't seen a single post here saying that looters should go unpunished. So this "WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT LOOTING IS BAD!?!?!?" refrain sung over and over isn't about anyone's belief about looting, it's used explicitly as an attempt to shout down anyone who wants to talk about something other than looting.

Rank the following issues by level of care:
- Police shooting (otherwise killing) citizens
- Police beating/using chemical weapons on citizens
- Police covering for each other
- Citizens attempting to hurt/kill other citizens at demonstrations (by car or otherwise)
- Federal authorities defying the wishes of local authorities
- Citizens throwing rocks/bricks at cops/feds
- Citizens burning down government buildings
- Citizens looting stores
- Citizens putting graffiti on things
- Citizens disrupting traffic patterns

I put that in order of what I care about (and by "care" I mean, inspires me to participate in social media discussion). Re-arrange for yourself and post.

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Why do you do nothing but ask rhetorical questions? 

I'm not sure you know what "rhetorical question" means. My question wants an answer.

Who are these "distracted" people that Brisket and I (and our ilk) are not paying attention to? What can we do to get them to refocus on BLM's actual goals and not the looting that happened a month ago?
 

[VABuckeye 2472]

All cops are bad is a radical stance to take.  

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, VABuckeye said:

All cops are bad is a radical stance to take.  

If "all cops are bad" means "literally all police officers are bad people", yes.

If "all cops are bad" means "if you want to say good cop/bad cop is a real thing, then the fact that cops maintain their thin blue line of silence means they all have to fall into the 'bad' category", no.

[Hate 20103]

If "all cops are bad" means "literally all police officers are bad people", yes.
If "all cops are bad" means "if you want to say good cop/bad cop is a real thing, then the fact that cops maintain their thin blue line of silence means they all have to fall into the 'bad' category", no.

You don’t get that luxury if onboard doesn’t get the luxury of saying all protests devolve into violence. Seriously.

[Brisketexan 104596]

All cops are bad is a radical stance to take.  

It’s not, because...

If "all cops are bad" means "literally all police officers are bad people", yes.
If "all cops are bad" means "if you want to say good cop/bad cop is a real thing, then the fact that cops maintain their thin blue line of silence means they all have to fall into the 'bad' category", no.

This.
And by they way, “bad” cops doesn’t just mean those that murder someone. It includes those who will lie under oath to fuck over someone, who will rough someone up knowing they can get away with it, who will arrest someone for a bullshit made up charge because they didn’t show the cop enough respect, etc. When you realize that is the class of issues, the percentage of “bad” cops is a lot bigger than you’d like to think. Then, when you add in the percentage of cops who know exactly what their fellow officers are doing, and let them get away with it and don’t protect us from those bad cops....yeah, we’re getting really damned close to “all of them.” And you know that.
We’re not saying all cops are murderers. We’re saying what I said above.

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

You don’t get that luxury if onboard doesn’t get the luxury of saying all protests devolve into violence. Seriously.

One is far more logically defensible than the other.

Police whistleblowers are commonly isolated and punished heavily (both formally and informally) for breaking the blue wall of silence. This isn't really deniable and it's impossible to argue it isn't true without stretching into outright dishonesty. Not only that, but we can watch videos of police abusing their power, hurting people, and even killing people while their fellow officers either watch or even help.

These protests, on the other hand, very rarely devolve into violence. Again, this is just observable reality.

[Incredulity 11564]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

One is far more logically defensible than the other.

Police whistleblowers are commonly isolated and punished heavily (both formally and informally) for breaking the blue wall of silence. This isn't really deniable and it's impossible to argue it isn't true without stretching into outright dishonesty. Not only that, but we can watch videos of police abusing their power, hurting people, and even killing people while their fellow officers either watch or even help.

These protests, on the other hand, very rarely devolve into violence. Again, this is just observable reality.

And what police organizing body facilitates the “blue wall of silence”?  

It’s ok, everybody knows, you can say it.

[bad_teammate 13132]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

And what police organizing body facilitates the “blue wall of silence”?  

I realize you're looking for me to speak ill of a union, something I'm happy to do in this case, but the police don't need a union to implement and enforce the blue wall of silence.

I am glad you acknowledge that I'm correct in my characterization of policing's corrupt nature, though.

[seven 1366]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

He's talking about the rioters. Has he not said multiple times, as we all have ad nauseam, the he supports the movement but not he riots?

 

 

You must have missed the part where Onboard said that people standing on a bridge are terrorists and kidnappers 

[Hate 20103]

That’s not what he said and you know it.

[Dahobbs 17444]

2 minutes ago, Hate said:

That’s not what he said and you know it.

It is literally what he said. He may not have meant it that way (I honestly can't tell at this point), but he did say it. 

[seven 1366]

That's exactly what he said, multiple times. 

[Js1 85104]

38 minutes ago, Hate said:

That’s not what he said and you know it.

clearly we don’t have your  special decoder ring to know what he meant despite what he actually typed  

 

[Hate 20103]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

clearly we don’t have your  special decoder ring to know what he meant despite what he actually typed  

 

Weird, you have a special decoder ring for Brisket. 

[Cajun 11675]

Tough thread.

[high side 3 way 54]

5 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Looks safe.

[Spankytoes 1736]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

How is my stance - which pretty clearly calls for any individuals committing violent criminal acts to face consequences, while not using criminal acts by those individuals as a basis to either 1) condemn and dismiss an entire movement, and/or 2) as an excuse to use violent, often military force against entire groups (including people who aren’t doing anything violent)...radical?

I mean, I guess in America 2020, that probably IS radical, now that I think about it.

Yet you condemn all police based on the actions of individuals...

[Buzzrock 14870]

Regarding the tactic of blocking cars

[Buzzrock 14870]

Here’s an unsettling response to an unsettling tactic


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/feds-court-order-journalists-portland-protests-389262

[Enchubben 5509]

1 hour ago, Buzzrock said:

Regarding the tactic of blocking cars

 

Bahaha. Are people supposed to read that and support their cause or be upset at the police reaction?

[Enchubben 5509]

6 hours ago, Captainant said:

Funny you should mention Richmond, VA...

https://www.wsls.com/news/virginia/2020/07/27/police-richmond-riots-instigated-by-white-supremacists-disguised-as-black-lives-matter/

 

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2020/07/30/did-white-supremacists-really-orchestrate-riots-in-richmond-its-complicated/

But Richmond officials have presented no direct evidence showing white supremacists organized the protest, encouraged violence or participated in any property damage.

As of Wednesday evening, neither the Richmond Police Department nor the mayor’s office had provided additional evidence of white supremacist influence.

The confusion in Richmond appeared to arise from an unlikely alliance between members of Black Lives Matter 757, an independent, Hampton Roads-area group that has clashed with other Black Lives Matter leaders and progressive organizers, and a boogaloo supporter named Mike Dunn, who appeared with the BLM757 group in Richmond. Dunn insists he is not a white supremacist and both he and BLM757 say Dunn’s group had left the protest before it turned  raucous. 

I’m sure you like their headline, but there is zero evidence that alt right groups participated in any violence or rioting. Apparently one group of alt right people that align with BLM and antifa (how that is considered an alt-right group is beyond me) were there for the protests. Zero arrests, zero evidence provided to support their bullshit political agenda and statements.  

Basically they saw some white dudes in Hawaiian shirts and tried to project the violence on right wing individuals. 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

7 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

It is literally what he said. He may not have meant it that way (I honestly can't tell at this point), but he did say it. 

I don't believe you'd know, (or admit) the truth if it bit you on your ass. If you're on a road way blocking the free flow of traffic, not allowing people to pass, and if they try to move around you or back up you stand in front of or begin banging on their car (which has been documented in several video clips),  yelling at those folks, making menacing moves toward them, banging on their car, that's for damn sure an act of terrorizing people. That some of you try to say it's not, let's put your wife, daughter, grand ma and and your grampy in that situation, and see what they say about it.  Let' s see what you say about it when they do thousands of dollars  damage to your car.

 Yes cars have caused death by being used as a weapon against protestors. I believe that's been the minority, and only a couple of those have been actually pre meditated  (Charlottesville).  There are videos after videos showing people in vehicles being caught in these street protests and being attacked by protesters. Those are probably just andecdotal evidence though aren't they ?

If you're forcibly detaining someone from leaving a location (while they're in their car or on foot for that matter), holding them against their will, I said that could be construed as kidnapping which would be incorrect based on the full definition of kidnapping, which also involves the act of transporting the victim, to be by the book kidnapping.  You're still detaining someone illegally because you've decided your self proclaimed right to block a freeway or surface street trumps their rights to drive their car down that roadway without you stopping them.

Posters here have tried to say there is no violence in these protests , that rioting Is not violent, that you can compare a riot/protest in a roadway to an after football game traffic jam, or deny actual mages of violence, and video evidence of people in vehicles being  assaulted speaks to a dishonesty that is far worse than me being incorrect about the definition of kidnapping. You can pile on all you want, but that only illustrates the cabal mentality perfectly.  Goal post moving is an art by some here, Dahobs with his "oh it's just like after a football game" is among the more galacticaly stupid comments I've seen floated here in a while. That kind of dishonesty is astounding, but has come to be expected from many.

Mayor Stoney of Richmond was wrong about his no BLM motivated violence over the weekend. I know more than a few people in local, and state level gov't, and the police who have the actual intel of the incidents who laughed, at that bald faced lie. 

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 hours ago, Enchubben said:

https://www.virginiamercury.com/2020/07/30/did-white-supremacists-really-orchestrate-riots-in-richmond-its-complicated/

But Richmond officials have presented no direct evidence showing white supremacists organized the protest, encouraged violence or participated in any property damage.

As of Wednesday evening, neither the Richmond Police Department nor the mayor’s office had provided additional evidence of white supremacist influence.

The confusion in Richmond appeared to arise from an unlikely alliance between members of Black Lives Matter 757, an independent, Hampton Roads-area group that has clashed with other Black Lives Matter leaders and progressive organizers, and a boogaloo supporter named Mike Dunn, who appeared with the BLM757 group in Richmond. Dunn insists he is not a white supremacist and both he and BLM757 say Dunn’s group had left the protest before it turned  raucous. 

I’m sure you like their headline, but there is zero evidence that alt right groups participated in any violence or rioting. Apparently one group of alt right people that align with BLM and antifa (how that is considered an alt-right group is beyond me) were there for the protests. Zero arrests, zero evidence provided to support their bullshit political agenda and statements.  

Basically they saw some white dudes in Hawaiian shirts and tried to project the violence on right wing individuals. 

I have no doubts that white supremacists would try to make it look like BLM was solely behind the violence, and destruction Saturday night. I also know there are enough BLM activists in Richmond that they were also involved. There are incidents daily in Richmond involving BLM activists (several arrests just yesterday after an altercation agitated by BLM members or sympathizers). Stoney was flat out lying. He's an idiot with an agenda that doesn't involve protecting the city.  He's fired 2 police chiefs in less than 2 months because they said, "we are not going to allow violence in our city". Fired both of them almost immediately after those comments were released.  He doesn't have an agenda...not at all.

[Js1 85104]

ThE vIoLeNcE wILl CoNtInUe ReGarDlEsS - surly big brains 

 

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[BabaYaga 15210]

25 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

Bank Lives Matter...

[Brisketexan 104596]

Yet you condemn all police based on the actions of individuals...

Except....I wrote these exact words right above yours.

This.
And by they way, “bad” cops doesn’t just mean those that murder someone. It includes those who will lie under oath to fuck over someone, who will rough someone up knowing they can get away with it, who will arrest someone for a bullshit made up charge because they didn’t show the cop enough respect, etc. When you realize that is the class of issues, the percentage of “bad” cops is a lot bigger than you’d like to think. Then, when you add in the percentage of cops who know exactly what their fellow officers are doing, and let them get away with it and don’t protect us from those bad cops....yeah, we’re getting really damned close to “all of them.” And you know that.
We’re not saying all cops are murderers. We’re saying what I said above.

Again, only some percentage of cops are the first type of “bad cop.” But functionally all cops are the second type of bad cop (they cover for the bad actors, and don’t protect us from them). And these are people who have a job that is literally to protect the people from bad guys.

You know that’s the case, and you know that’s what I said and meant.

But why would that matter in 2020 America? Sure, I think all cops are murderers. Go with that, if that helps you sleep at night.

[MissingInAction 24814]

59 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

Soooooo some fuck sticks tried to rob a bank. Wtf does that have to do with anything?

Were I still a criminal I'd be exploiting the protests to my advantage as well.

Edited July 31, 2020 by MissingInAction