Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Incredulity 11532]

Nm

Edited August 17, 2020 by Incredulity

[Incredulity 11532]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Never been on record with anything but that position.   And from what I've seen, nobody around here has said anything materially different.

Which has little to do with our repeated warnings and observations that if the system repeatedly shits on people and tells them that the jackboots are above the law, shit will inevitably explode.  If you wanted to execute a plan for "ensure that violent protests happen," our society, government, and law enforcement has been executing that plan to perfection for quite some time.

I'd like to avoid violent protests.  Perhaps the most effective way to do that is for our society and institutions not create the conditions that history tells us will lead to violence.  We should look into that, and try it.  That way, nobody gets their head kicked in by the cops, or gets murdered by the cops, or gets arrested on bullshit charges by the cops, and no Starbucks windows get smashed, and no people get caught in the crossfire violence.  Winning across the board.  Seems like the best approach.

Yet we resist doing it with everything we've got.  And then bitch about achieving the result that a bunch of us have been reminding everyone is inevitable when you follow that course.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

dr noCAPITALIZEDwords

Edited August 17, 2020 by Incredulity

[Brisketexan 104462]

Just now, VABuckeye said:

That's the whole fucking point.  Videos are edited to show a side.  We have no idea what prompted the cops in those cases.  Hint, this shit is happening on both sides of what is going on.

If a video shows a clearly incomplete set of circumstances, avoid it.  But a shitload of the videos of cops whooping up on a particular individual show the entire transaction between the cop and that specific person.  That's a real fucking problem - there is no other, deeper story.  Cops beat the fuck out of people.  Just one example -- cops shoot someone in the face who is holding up a stereo -- I don't care what he did 5 hours, or 5 minutes before -- nothing justifies shooting someone square in the fucking face while he's holding a boombox like in "Say Anything."  Cops don't get to administer vengeance, or punishment.  If someone does not present a physical threat, you don't get to shoot him in the fucking face.

[wildcat09 29187]

I haven't caught up on this recently, has anyone posted about the former Seal throwing pipe bombs at protesters? 

[bad_teammate 13125]

28 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The person lying here is you. 

Peaceful protests happen at all times, day and night.

When you say all night protests are not peaceful, you are lying.

Quote

There are countless videos of the violence occurring at the hands of peaceful protesters once the sun goes down.

This does not mean that all night protest are not peaceful.

You are both dishonest and stupid.

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Huh?  We've seen videos of purported protesters committing violent actions.....I'm not aware of anyone disputing that such things exist.

Because they aren't here. The people you're talking to are not thinkers. They do not exist to consider, they exist to react to outrage media that they consume. They go on social media, give themselves rage-based emotional disorders, then come here to yell at people about the thing they pissed themselves off with.

[Brisketexan 104462]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I haven't caught up on this recently, has anyone posted about the former Seal throwing pipe bombs at protesters? 

Sorry, you misspelled "Patriot fighting against evil antifa troops who should be awarded the Medal of Freedom."  A simple typo, I'm sure.

[dcar00 14023]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Peaceful protests happen at all times, day and night.

When you say all night protests are not peaceful, you are lying.

This does not mean that all night protest are not peaceful.

You are both dishonest and stupid.

Because they aren't here. The people you're talking to are not thinkers. They do not exist to consider, they exist to react to outrage media that they consume. They go on social media, give themselves rage-based emotional disorders, then come here to yell at people about the thing they pissed themselves off with.

so when are you picking up and movin' to Portland?  I hear the weather and job market is spectacular.

[workswithseed 2033]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I haven't caught up on this recently, has anyone posted about the former Seal throwing pipe bombs at protesters? 

He just wanted to show the "protesters" how the cops felt, also no, I haven't. Maybe you should link it, and don't start from the last punch.

[wildcat09 29187]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

He just wanted to show the "protesters" how the cops felt, also no, I haven't. Maybe you should link it, and don't start from the last punch.

Here's a story on it from Oregon Public Broadcasting: https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/10/man-seen-in-area-of-homemade-explosive-at-portland-protest-ided-as-ex-navy-seal/

I'm curious about your "don't start from the last punch" comment. How, exactly, would one deploy a pipe bomb in self defense?

 

[workswithseed 2033]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Here's a story on it from Oregon Public Broadcasting: https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/10/man-seen-in-area-of-homemade-explosive-at-portland-protest-ided-as-ex-navy-seal/

I'm curious about your "don't start from the last punch" comment. How, exactly, would one deploy a pipe bomb in self defense?

 

You're lucky to not live in a town where the thought hasn't crossed your mind. Joking of course, just wanted to rib Brisket.

[Incredulity 11532]

Well according to the Multnomah County DA shout BLM after you throw the pipebomb.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Incredulity

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, Incredulity said:

Well according to the Multnomah County DA shout BLM after you throw the pipebomb.

You're really doing a bang up job not being political.

[Brisketexan 104462]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Well according to the Multnomah County DA shout BLM after you throw the pipebomb.

Really?  Cite where the DA said "don't prosecute people who commit violent acts."  Go ahead, should be easy to grab that quote.

[Incredulity 11532]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Really?  Cite where the DA said "don't prosecute people who commit violent acts."  Go ahead, should be easy to grab that quote.

Straight up thread.

Finally, when a person is charged with a misdemeanor or felony crime that causes only financial harm during a protest, there will be a presumption that the individual will either be offered conditional dismissal after restitution is paid to the victim or when other amends to the community are made, such as restorative justice with the impacted victim.

Crimes in this category include:

Criminal mischief in the second and third degree (ORS 164.345 & ORS 164.354) When the value is under $1,000

 

 

[MillerEP 30339]

The Oregon State Police have pulled out of Portland, so that just leaves the local and county now:

https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/Oregon-State-Police-withdraws-extra-officers-from-Portland-amid-continued-unrest-572117911.html

 

[Brisketexan 104462]

Just now, Incredulity said:

Straight up thread.

Finally, when a person is charged with a misdemeanor or felony crime that causes only financial harm during a protest, there will be a presumption that the individual will either be offered conditional dismissal after restitution is paid to the victim or when other amends to the community are made, such as restorative justice with the impacted victim.

Crimes in this category include:

Criminal mischief in the second and third degree (ORS 164.345 & ORS 164.354) When the value is under $1,000

 

 

So, "causes only financial harm."  That modifier....guess it doesn't mean anything.

AND, it still doesn't say "non-prosecution," nor does it say anything about motivation.  It says that restitution must be made in order to obtain non-prosecution (I don't entirely agree with that approach, although I see the reasoning).

So, again, cite where the DA said if you throw a bomb at people, you don't get prosecuted.

[Incredulity 11532]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, "causes only financial harm."  That modifier....guess it doesn't mean anything.

AND, it still doesn't say "non-prosecution," nor does it say anything about motivation.  It says that restitution must be made in order to obtain non-prosecution (I don't entirely agree with that approach, although I see the reasoning).

So, again, cite where the DA said if you throw a bomb at people, you don't get prosecuted.

No one was injured in said “pipebomb” situation.  So it fits  under the DA’s policy, but only if the pipebomb was used by, “mostly peaceful protestors”.

[alincoln 2364]

Sad that all of the restitution checks sent by the nonviolent protesters won't be delivered because of Trump's dismantling of the USPS.  

[Hate 20102]

Sad that all of the restitution checks sent by the nonviolent protesters won't be delivered because of Trump's dismantling of the USPS.  

Lol, like any of those people know how to write a check anyway, much less have any money to repay damages.

[Incredulity 11532]

4 minutes ago, Hate said:

Lol, like any of those people know how to write a check anyway, much less have any money to repay damages.

Automatic bill pay out of trust fund account sounds about right.

[Brisketexan 104462]

13 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

No one was injured in said “pipebomb” situation.  So it fits  under the DA’s policy, but only if the pipebomb was used by, “mostly peaceful protestors”.

Incorrect.  An act targeted at a person (as opposed to property only) is a violent crime.  In most states, it's called "assault," and further, "assault with a deadly weapon."  A protester throwing rocks at a window would be a property crime, but if he turns and throws that rock at a cop, even if he misses, it's assault.

But it's okay, we understand that you're good with a loyal soldier, defending his country against evil antifa -- I'm sure his Medal of Freedom is forthcoming.

[Incredulity 11532]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Incorrect.  An act targeted at a person (as opposed to property only) is a violent crime.  In most states, it's called "assault," and further, "assault with a deadly weapon."  A protester throwing rocks at a window would be a property crime, but if he turns and throws that rock at a cop, even if he misses, it's assault.

But it's okay, we understand that you're good with a loyal soldier, defending his country against evil antifa -- I'm sure his Medal of Freedom is forthcoming.

I wait with great anticipation the forthcoming wave of assault charges for the thousands of, “mostly peaceful protesters” who have thrown rocks at Portland Police Officers.  I am sure it’s just a paperwork backlog that has those pending.  

Or is it that they aren’t being charged because they shout, “BLM”?

Hmmmmm...

Edited August 17, 2020 by Incredulity

[Brisketexan 104462]

6 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

I wait with great anticipation the forthcoming wave of assault charges for the thousands of, “mostly peaceful protesters” who have thrown rocks at Portland Police Officers.  I am sure it’s just a paperwork backlog that has those pending.  

Or is it that they aren’t being charged because they shout, “BLM”?

Hmmmmm...

Have they been arrested for assault?  Do you have evidence of any material number of people who have been 1) arrested by authorities in connection with committing violent acts against police who 2) the DA is declining to charge?

And again, I find it fascinating that you are wildly concerned about this.....as compared to people who work for you, on your payroll, committing crimes, and having absolute immunity, both legal and practical because hey....I'm a cop, who's even gonna arrest me?  That contrast says more than you ever could with words.  Which is, you know, why a shitload of the American people are actually pissed off.  Our employees.  Committing crimes.  Against us.  With no repercussions.  And they smugly celebrate it.

[Incredulity 11532]

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/multnomah-county-da-to-announce-protest-policy-watch-live.html

 

Prosecutors will scrutinize the cases of protesters accused of resisting arrest or assaulting a public safety officer and consider “the chaos of a protesting environment, especially after tear gas or other less-lethal munitions have been deployed against community members en masse,” the district attorney’s office said in a news release.

[Brisketexan 104462]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/multnomah-county-da-to-announce-protest-policy-watch-live.html

 

Prosecutors will scrutinize the cases of protesters accused of resisting arrest or assaulting a public safety officer and consider “the chaos of a protesting environment, especially after tear gas or other less-lethal munitions have been deployed against community members en masse,” the district attorney’s office said in a news release.

Yes.  Scrutinizing cases based on an officer "because I said so".....when the PD has a documented history of lying to support charges (and grabbing and beating/arresting people just because they were in the vicinity of some event).  Yeah, that's just crazy.  All DAs should scrutinize all such cases, everywhere.  And if charges are supportable, pursue them.  And if not, don't.

[clapclapclap 9000]

2 hours ago, MillerEP said:

 

 

Can y'all stop arguing in circles with BT and Brisket?  Make your point and move on.  Their whole game is to filibuster and spam a thread with endless posts until the vids, pics, and news they don't like are buried deep in a huge thread of the same arguing stated over and over.  Most aren't going to read through all that blather.  Trying to hide news like the above vid of a mob assault.

It's a vid/pic/news thread, not a constantly argue the same things thread.

Edited August 17, 2020 by clapclapclap

[Brisketexan 104462]

 

[bad_teammate 13125]

1 hour ago, Incredulity said:

I wait with great anticipation the forthcoming wave of assault charges for the thousands of, “mostly peaceful protesters” who have thrown rocks at Portland Police Officers.

You think thousands of people have been throwing rocks at Portland PD?

55 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/08/multnomah-county-da-to-announce-protest-policy-watch-live.html

 

Prosecutors will scrutinize the cases of protesters accused of resisting arrest or assaulting a public safety officer and consider “the chaos of a protesting environment, especially after tear gas or other less-lethal munitions have been deployed against community members en masse,” the district attorney’s office said in a news release.

Good. Do you think they shouldn't?

I think the government should have a high bar to clear before prosecuting/convicting/imprisoning citizens. That's just me, though, I'm liberty-minded.

[Enchubben 5509]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Those are just peaceful fireworks. No big deal. Also I’m skeptical because I didn’t see 4 hours of footage prior to him interviewing a random guy on a street.

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[Brothahorn 10085]

Quote

 

“If you ain’t from Englewood, get the f - - k out of here,” local resident Darryl Smith railed at protesters.

“Y’all don’t come out when a kid gets shot. Y’all come out when it’s got something to do with the f - - king police,” he shouted, according to the Chicago Sun-Times. He demanded that marchers take up their beefs with authorities and leave everyone else alone.

But then, as protesters made their way to a police station, ­locals pushed back against the mob. This caused marchers to disperse, as one neighborhood fought back against the outside agitators they believe ruin things for everyone.

These small heroics prove that not every person living in a neighborhood populated mainly by minorities wishes to burn it down. So when Chicago BLM organizer Ariel Atkins excused weekend lootings as “reparation,” a quieter but even more insistent voice responded, “Hell, no.”

The truth is that most people just want the same things: Jobs. Safety. Respect. Most people also know that the vast majority of ­police officers aren’t out to kill them. And for those not in the top 1 percent of this country’s earners, cops are the only ones standing between them and trouble.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/pushback-in-chicago-as-blacks-are-sick-and-tired-of-looters-anarchists/

 

[dcar00 14023]

2 hours ago, Brothahorn said:

https://nypost.com/2020/08/13/pushback-in-chicago-as-blacks-are-sick-and-tired-of-looters-anarchists/

 

yeah but blah, blah, blah, federal jackbooted thugs, yada, yada....

[Brothahorn 10085]

 

Getting an education and stop doing stupid shit will help. Might want to change your social circle as well.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brothahorn

[bad_teammate 13125]

55 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

yeah but blah, blah, blah, federal jackbooted thugs, yada, yada....

No "but" to it.

Federal jackbooted thugs are a massive problem and their behavior is unacceptable. Local police, as well.

[Hmmm 155]

54 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

yeah but blah, blah, blah, federal jackbooted thugs, yada, yada....

help me understand this comment as it appears to be dismissing something fairly important -  not all people supporting BLM are aligned with the same principles in how to progress the movement.  that seems pretty significant.

[VABuckeye 2472]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No "but" to it.

Federal jackbooted thugs are a massive problem and their behavior is unacceptable. Local police, as well.

So is Korporate.

[workswithseed 2033]

23 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

Getting an education and stop doing stupid shit will help. Might want to change your social circle as well.

Fuck, at least he came and said he did wrong. That's a start.

[dcar00 14023]

24 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

 

Getting an education and stop doing stupid shit will help. Might want to change your social circle as well.

that is hilarious...

[Hmmm 155]

There was a live interview last night on local news with 4 activists;  two older, two younger.  It was encouraging to see that while they all support the cause, there were some disagreements about looting.  One of the younger activists claimed that looting was a-ok because they were entitled to "reimbursements".  The older activists were not quite on the same page.

I don't care to engage BT in arguments.. i sense he's the type that, if you declare a circle is red, he'd asked you to prove how the ray of light emitted from the circle falls within the spectrum of red light; then, he ask you to prove the circle is a circle.  That's fine by me - we could use that type of discussion in spades. 

Anyways, I haven't yet seen BT address how violent protests can be weakening the movement by dividing current activists as well as non-activists; and as Nicole puts it, "The longer the riots go on and destruction happens the less the 87% of America will give a fuck."  But perhaps I missed his retort on this.  I seem to think he doesn't really care so long as it's anarchaic reform (speaking out of my ass here).  And, no, BT - I will not be answering any questions you pose as I've seen you post trolling questions to which you already knew the answer.
 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

19 hours ago, Hmmm said:

There was a live interview last night on local news with 4 activists;  two older, two younger.  It was encouraging to see that while they all support the cause, there were some disagreements about looting.  One of the younger activists claimed that looting was a-ok because they were entitled to "reimbursements".  The older activists were not quite on the same page.

I don't care to engage BT in arguments.. i sense he's the type that, if you declare a circle is red, he'd asked you to prove how the ray of light emitted from the circle falls within the spectrum of red light; then, he ask you to prove the circle is a circle.  That's fine by me - we could use that type of discussion in spades. 

Anyways, I haven't yet seen BT address how violent protests can be weakening the movement by dividing current activists as well as non-activists; and as Nicole puts it, "The longer the riots go on and destruction happens the less the 87% of America will give a fuck."  But perhaps I missed his retort on this.  I seem to think he doesn't really care so long as it's anarchaic reform (speaking out of my ass here).  And, no, BT - I will not be answering any questions you pose as I've seen you post trolling questions to which you already knew the answer.
 

Yeah the second you loot you're a criminal, and your protest is dead in my opinion. There's not one bit of grey area there. My studio was right in the middle of 2 of these "peaceful protests", and while I've been lucky (I dismantled my entire studio 2x), folks around me haven't been. You're fucking over people who will not be made whole by their insurance companies when you loot.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Onboard 2.0

[Telegraph_it 3353]

Imagine the billable hours brisket could have if he didn’t post here. 

[washparkhorn 9931]

An illuminating interactive piece on tactics for those who want to understand the x's and o's.

https://projects.propublica.org/protest-police-tactics/

Hook 'em.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

16 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

Imagine the billable hours brisket could have if he didn’t post here. 

If he's not here, he's out on a ledge somewhere.  

[BradInATX 9208]

41 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

Imagine the billable hours brisket could have if he didn’t post here. 

If you don't think someone is getting billed for his Surly posts, you don't know how lawyers work.

[Enchubben 5509]

9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

If you don't think someone is getting billed for his Surly posts, you don't know how lawyers work.

Round up to the nearest hour I say 

[dcar00 14023]

9 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

If you don't think someone is getting billed for his Surly posts, you don't know how lawyers work.

file under "time spent influencing prospective jury pool - 4,000 hours"

[bad_teammate 13125]

1 hour ago, Hmmm said:

Anyways, I haven't yet seen BT address how violent protests can be weakening the movement by dividing current activists as well as non-activists; and as Nicole puts it, "The longer the riots go on and destruction happens the less the 87% of America will give a fuck."  But perhaps I missed his retort on this.  I seem to think he doesn't really care so long as it's anarchaic reform (speaking out of my ass here).  

What retort should I have to a completely fabricated statistic?

If you look at the posters here who are most outraged it's pretty obvious they were not BLM supporters who were lost when the looting started. What you are seeing is people who were mad at Colin Kaepernik's entirely peaceful and respectful kneeling who are still mad today and will still be mad tomorrow. 

I don't buy the idea that vast swaths of persuadable people were down for police reform and are now against police reform because of riots/looting. I'm sure there are some, but the outrage leaders have always been ideologically hostile to the movement and always will be. It's not hard to figure out. Look at the sources they incessantly post.

Beyond that, what am I or anyone else supposed to do about it? A riot is the language of the unheard. Looting is the result of chaos. If you actually want looting and riots to end, then you should INCREASE your support for reforms that will prevent the needful being heard and will prevent chaos reigning.

Quote

And, no, BT - I will not be answering any questions you pose as I've seen you post trolling questions to which you already knew the answer.

That's how conversation works; you ask questions to elicit responses in case you are wrong about what you think the other person will answer.

Otherwise you're just talking at/past people, which seems to be your goal I guess?

[washparkhorn 9931]

25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

you ask questions to elicit responses in case you are wrong about what you think the other person will answer.

Otherwise you're just talking at/past people, which seems to be your goal I guess?

I get it though. I have no interest in any political comedy standup at all. It's repetitive and monotonous. It's a buzzkill. For me.

We all need to find ways to talk about the concerns we all have. As a nation, we need to open the channels of communication. We need each other paddling in the same direction. Our economic system is crumbling, which will harm everyone other the superwealthy - and none of them give a damn if the US economy fails since they make money regardless of the outcome. 

Hook 'em.

[Brisketexan 104462]

5 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

I get it though. I have no interest in any political comedy standup at all. It's repetitive and monotonous. It's a buzzkill. For me.

We all need to find ways to talk about the concerns we all have. As a nation, we need to open the channels of communication. We need each other paddling in the same direction. Our economic system is crumbling, which will harm everyone other the superwealthy - and none of them give a damn if the US economy fails since they make money regardless of the outcome. 

Hook 'em.

It's cool, though.  I mean, we COULD talk about huge structural failings that impact all of society, falling hardest on the poorest and minorities....but you know, some people participating in the giant movement are doing some bad things, so, sorry, I guess we need to deny the movement any legitimacy and stick with the status quo.  We've got no choice.  I mean, we MIGHT have thought about addressing a hideously broken system, but some guys in black hoodies did some bad shit, so we nope, we're gonna side with the broken system.  Entire thread above shoulda told ya.

[washparkhorn 9931]

The black hoodies and the nihilists trigger an emotional response - no doubt caused by years for years of conditioning. Black hoodies are just fashion when stripped of the politics. 

Nihilists, on the other hand, are no one's ally. The sociopaths leech onto productive political speech and ruin it for everyone. They have no ethos; they just want to see the world burn. They don't believe BLM or ALM. They want to burn it all down.