Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Hate 20103]

You can voice your opinion, that's fine, but look at the question you responded to.
------------------------------
It's the job of the elected officials to look at what is causing the riots and propose/enact policies to stop the immediate effects and prevent future flare-ups. Those are the people we need to be asking questions about.
We can agree it's "a long process", but is there a process even started? Are the powers-that-be in this country even planning on doing something?
------------------------------
And look at your response to it. Makes zero sense.

I posted about a bill currently in the HOR to decriminalize marijuana. I then proposed other actions that I would support following said decriminalization.

[bad_teammate 13132]

19 minutes ago, Hate said:

I posted about a bill currently in the HOR to decriminalize marijuana. I then proposed other actions that I would support following said decriminalization.

Well once that bill and many others pass then hopefully the people who are rioting/looting will feel that they are being represented.

And again, your proposals might be interesting for conversation here, but you can't rationally expect people in the outside world to base their actions on your proposals.

[Hate 20103]

I don’t. But it starts a conversation about a way forward. Would an end to the war on drugs be helpful to the people protesting right now?

[bad_teammate 13132]

16 minutes ago, Hate said:

Would an end to the war on drugs be helpful to the people protesting right now?

Absolutely, so let's have those in power do that and then we can say, "Hey, guys, look at the changes that were made!"

The ball is in the hands of the representatives who have power, so it is them we should be pressuring.

[Hmmm 155]

BT, do you believe any enforcement of law is necessary?  More specifically, do you believe the police are a necessary component to enforce the law?  If no then disregard the rest of post.

Would you be in favor of re-allocating funds to procure state of the art body cams with high availability, network access, unable to turn off without supervisor approval (or high level authority outside the police force), and are automatically uploaded to a cloud?  

If police are defunded, their essentials (weapons) will not align with the essentials you think they need (training), and we are not the bookkeepers.  That's my biggest concern with "defund the police".

Edited September 2, 2020 by Hmmm

[Captainant 27442]

2 minutes ago, Hmmm said:

Would you be in favor of re-allocating funds to procure state of the art body cams with high availability, network access, unable to turn off without supervisor approval (or high level authority outside the police force), and are automatically uploaded to a cloud?  

If police are defunded, their essentials (weapons) will not align with the essentials you think they need (training), and we are not the bookkeepers.  That's my biggest concern with "defund the police".

For the trillionth time, training does not lead to better policing. There's an excellent study thats been posted and reposted here that demonstrates that with publicly available data. 

The difference maker is actual accountability, currently an officer can act negligently and ultimately kill a citizen for nothing and see zero punishment aside from two weeks vacation. The same study demonstrated a strong correlation and offers a test case to show causation that actual oversight and consequences is what actually leads to better (read: less violent) policing. 

[Hmmm 155]

7 minutes ago, Captainant said:

For the trillionth time, training does not lead to better policing. There's an excellent study thats been posted and reposted here that demonstrates that with publicly available data. 

The difference maker is actual accountability, currently an officer can act negligently and ultimately kill a citizen for nothing and see zero punishment aside from two weeks vacation. The same study demonstrated a strong correlation and offers a test case to show causation that actual oversight and consequences is what actually leads to better (read: less violent) policing. 

Good point.  I would say it's fairly accurate and change your words to "training with better accountability can lead to better policing".  I believe training is an absolute necessary component to better policing.  So long as it's the right training which is very subjective.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Hmmm

[Captainant 27442]

1 minute ago, Hmmm said:

Good point.  I would say it's fairly accurate and change your words to "training with better accountability can lead to better policing".  I believe training is an absolutely necessary component to better policing.  So long as it's the right training which is very subjective.

I'll need to find the study, but there was zero correlation between amount of training and frequency of complaints against officers for excessive force. Training is important for policing skills, but that's not what's gonna stop johnny neck stomper from doing what comes naturally

[Enchubben 5509]

14 minutes ago, Captainant said:

For the trillionth time, training does not lead to better policing. There's an excellent study thats been posted and reposted here that demonstrates that with publicly available data. 

The difference maker is actual accountability, currently an officer can act negligently and ultimately kill a citizen for nothing and see zero punishment aside from two weeks vacation. The same study demonstrated a strong correlation and offers a test case to show causation that actual oversight and consequences is what actually leads to better (read: less violent) policing. 

Is there an example of this you can point to?  I’m not saying one doesn’t exist but is this a regular occurrence?

[Hmmm 155]

Just now, Captainant said:

I'll need to find the study, but there was zero correlation between amount of training and frequency of complaints against officers for excessive force. Training is important for policing skills, but that's not what's gonna stop johnny neck stomper from doing what comes naturally

Whatever study that was must have been very narrowly focus.  I don't need accountability at work to prevent me from being johnny neck stopmer.   I've had diversity training at work that has opened my minds to some things (unconscious bias). Having someone hold me accountable to supporting diversity would have absolutely no impact on me doing "what's right".  But yeah, I'd be open to reading whatever study it is you're referencing.

[Hate 20103]

Is there an example of this you can point to?  I’m not saying one doesn’t exist but is this a regular occurrence?

It’s every cop. It’s part of the initiation rights and every cop has to kill someone before they are allowed into the police union.

[Captainant 27442]

45 minutes ago, Hate said:

It’s every cop. It’s part of the initiation rights and every cop has to kill someone before they are allowed into the police union.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-30/sheriff-clique-compton-station-executioners

 

Quote

The allegations have revived long-standing concerns that inked deputy groups — with monikers such as the Spartans, Regulators, Grim Reapers and Banditos — operate out of several Sheriff’s Department stations and represent what many in the community see as criminal gangs within law enforcement. The existence of such fraternities has sparked multiple internal investigations and recently a federal probe by the FBI, but the groups have remained entrenched, with many civil liberties advocates accusing the Sheriff’s Department of turning a blind eye

 

 

[Hate 20103]

2 minutes ago, Captainant said:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-30/sheriff-clique-compton-station-executioners

 

 

 

Right.  Every cop is a part of a gang.

[Captainant 27442]

1 minute ago, Hate said:

Right.  Every cop is a part of a gang.

Well isn’t every protester a rioter, right?

Edited September 3, 2020 by Captainant

[Hate 20103]

26 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Well isn’t every protester a rioter, right?

Not once have I ever said that.  I don't believe all cops are bad and I don't believe all protestors are also rioting.  Why is that hard to understand?  The only group that I have total disdain for and believe they all suck is politicians...and lawyers...and sooners. 

just kidding.  I've met some decent sooners

[BLKNSTY 289]

https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/disturbing-video-from-rochester-shows-man-die-during-arrest/
just some more bad apples. looks like we’re in for another fiery weekend.

[Anastasis 23393]

[huge 3788]

https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/disturbing-video-from-rochester-shows-man-die-during-arrest/
just some more bad apples. looks like we’re in for another fiery weekend.

Yeah those cops should be charged as well.

I don’t see any point in any of that. What the fuck was the end game?

How can anyone defend any of that.

[workswithseed 2035]

Seriously, this is how I feel about the whole, "They have insurance, bro."

Edited September 3, 2020 by workswithseed

[bad_teammate 13132]

workswithseed, you really need to stop eating at the trough of alt-right grifters and fucking video game streamers. Jesus Christ you've put yourself in a completely dire and hopeless situation if this is your intellectual and moral diet.

14 hours ago, Hmmm said:

BT, do you believe any enforcement of law is necessary?  More specifically, do you believe the police are a necessary component to enforce the law?  If no then disregard the rest of post.

I don't know what "the police" means here, but we definitely need some manner of law enforcement.

Quote

Would you be in favor of re-allocating funds to procure state of the art body cams with high availability, network access, unable to turn off without supervisor approval (or high level authority outside the police force), and are automatically uploaded to a cloud? 

As like a 20th step, sure, but body cameras don't really matter.

Quote

If police are defunded, their essentials (weapons) will not align with the essentials you think they need (training), and we are not the bookkeepers.

Obviously it would be great if this stuff could be done in harmonious concert with the police unions and officers, but that's not a strictly necessary component.

They work for us, I don't really care what they think their "essentials" are. As the sergeant says to the private, "If you needed an opinion, one would have been issued to you."

"Training" is also a vague concept (like "the police") that needs definition. They get lots of "training". Some soulless IDF psychopath telling them how to rip out eyeballs and unlock their INNER WARRIOR is "training" we pay for.

Here are some basic guiding principles from me, a nobody idiot:
- The large majority of police should walk around with no deadly weapons on them or in their vehicles.
- The majority of police should not be combat-trained beyond basic self-defense and restraint.
- The majority of police should PRIMARILY be social-worker-like in training and demeanor.

I hear crap like, "If they don't have guns, they won't do X, Y, or Z." and that's fine. I'm OK with Officer Littlepecker being too afraid to pull someone over for speeding unless he's got a handgun on his hip and an AR in the trunk; he has the right to be fearful and I respect it. He can join the brute squad or get a different job.

I will not have a hard time finding someone who will take $90k+/year + excellent benefits + generous pension + social adoration to write tickets without being armed.

Unarmed, unescorted women in CPS make home visits at midnight and all they're armed with is a clipboard. If Officer Littlepecker can't talk to a homeless man singing a song to himself about Alien Jesus on a bus without a gun then he's welcome to find new employment and I wish him all the best.

If we had an unarmed civilian force specifically marked by uniform as unarmed peacemakers then we could actually practice de-escalation. You see the white-shirts and you know there are no guns and no "STOP RESISTING!" inner desire to hurt and kill and prove manliness to his fellows. You know those are people who will be patient and listen and try to fix a situation and won't let their machismo and ego escalate as cops constantly do. You know those people are trained and expert in the social programs we pay for to help vulnerable people become more self-sufficient and self-regulating.

And when someone attacks the white-shirts in a deadly way, the brute squad is called in and you get your blue-shirt regular cop with his bevy of guns, shaved head, Oakleys, tactical underwear, and small-man chip on his shoulder.

"BUT NO ONE WILL TAKE THAT WHITE-SHIRT JOB!"

Let's find out. I think this is dead wrong. I think law enforcement is so violent and hostile and toxic that it has become a self-isolating profession fit only for a very narrow type of person (white, male, kind of angry at the world, entitlement-minded). They've made a little boys club using billions of taxpayer dollars.

[workswithseed 2035]

Destiny is alright?! This guy is fucking lefty who I agree with on this issue. You need to do some research apparently.

[Post Oak 20183]

13 hours ago, BLKNSTY said:

https://nypost.com/2020/09/02/disturbing-video-from-rochester-shows-man-die-during-arrest/
just some more bad apples. looks like we’re in for another fiery weekend.

Thats fucking murder.  They need to burn. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Destiny is alright?! This guy is fucking lefty who I agree with on this issue. You need to do some research apparently.

ok lol

 

[workswithseed 2035]

8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

ok lol

 

Alt right, huh?

[Hate 20103]

Everyone who disagrees with BT is alt-right.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I never called Destiny alt-right. (for a discussion of what Destiny is, let's go to CR because that's where a discussion of his ideology fits)

workswithseed, you really need to stop eating at the trough of alt-right grifters and fucking video game streamers.

"And" is a conjunction used to connect distinct phrases and clauses. Learn to read.

[edit]

Cassandra Fairbanks IS an alt-right grifter who lost a defamation suit where the judge called her a "troll". It's beyond pathetic that your mental diet is this absolutely laughable garbage to such an extent that you feel so persuaded by its credibility that you roll it out here among college-educated people. You hear a video games man scream "KILL THE PROTESTERS!" and think *hmm what a reasonable fellow let me use him to further dialogue*.

Edited September 3, 2020 by bad_teammate

[workswithseed 2035]

9 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I never called Destiny alt-right.

workswithseed, you really need to stop eating at the trough of alt-right grifters and fucking video game streamers.

"And" is a conjunction used to connect distinct phrases and clauses. Learn to read.

Awe, so he wanted people to kick him off all platforms for a grid? Yeah, your logic ain't sound.

[bad_teammate 13132]

I have no idea what you are talking about with the platform banning grid or whatever. I tagged you into a CR thread to talk about Destiny. I never called him alt-right, learn to read.

[JBJ 3648]

1 hour ago, Post Oak said:

Thats fucking murder.  They need to burn. 

What exactly are you seeing in that video?

[bolverk 29397]

4 minutes ago, JBJ said:

What exactly are you seeing in that video?

A medical examiner concluded that Prude’s death was a homicide caused by “complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint.” The report lists excited delirium and acute intoxication by phencyclidine, or PCP, as contributing factors.

https://apnews.com/5c2f0cf366e560b7f41ebb3c964b099c?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

The full AP article is worth a read.

[JBJ 3648]

It looks like any other PCP or bath salts death to me.  Dude goes from 1000% to dead in a few moments.  Maybe the video in the link edits out the bad parts?

[BabaYaga 15208]

18 minutes ago, JBJ said:

What exactly are you seeing in that video?

1: NY's first COVID attributed death was on March 11th. By March 23rd when he died, they had 95 deaths per day (and 410 a week later on 3/30...) That's why he had a spit hood on.  Which is mesh and more porous than any face mask required by the state.

2: PCP in system. Excited delirium will play a factor, like always. Acute PCP intoxication?  Hypoxia a common adverse effect?

3: Officers reported to him the previous day for a wellfare check as he was having suicidal thoughts. Why was he not given a 72 observation in a psych ward? He literally asked for the officer's gun to shoot himself before they put the hood on.  I do know in wards, PCP intoxication/rages warrant chemical restraints as they can cause massive physical harm to themselves and others.  

[BLKNSTY 289]

What exactly are you seeing in that video?

He was cuffed, naked, on the ground in snowy weather and had a spit hood on. then an officer gets on his back with a knee and another cop literally puts both hands around the back of his neck as he pushes dudes face into the fucking pavement as you can literally hear him get choked the fuck out. he was brain dead within minutes and the officers stood around laughing and joking about sticking a rectal thermometer up his ass. dude complied with every single command in the beginning of the video, was clearly unfucking armed and still ended up dead within 7 minutes.

[bolverk 29397]

6 minutes ago, JBJ said:

It looks like any other PCP or bath salts death to me.  Dude goes from 1000% to dead in a few moments.  Maybe the video in the link edits out the bad parts?

The longer video was worse.

[BLKNSTY 289]

He was cuffed, naked, on the ground in snowy weather and had a spit hood on. then an officer gets on his back with a knee and another cop literally puts both hands around the back of his neck as he pushes dudes face into the fucking pavement as you can literally hear him get choked the fuck out. he was brain dead within minutes and the officers stood around laughing and joking about sticking a rectal thermometer up his ass. dude complied with every single command in the beginning of the video, was clearly unfucking armed and still ended up dead within 7 minutes.

2 minutes.

[JBJ 3648]

That one does look worse.  The original it looks like they held him down for a few moments then rolled him over when he went unresponsive.  Is there a full version somewhere?

[Foosters 17727]

22 hours ago, Hate said:

I posted about a bill currently in the HOR to decriminalize marijuana. I then proposed other actions that I would support following said decriminalization.

I work in a county that has legalized marijuana. That hasn't stopped pretextual stops, harrasment, profiling, and killing. Just this week LA Sheriffs killed a man during a struggle. The entire incident started when they detained him for "bicycle code violations." They used to justify stops and detentions by saying they smelled the "odor of marijuana." Now they just say they smelled the "odor of burnt marijuana" which gives them cause to stop a motorist/cyclist for DWI. Strangely, the cases never turn up marijuana.

[workswithseed 2035]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

I have no idea what you are talking about with the platform banning grid or whatever. I tagged you into a CR thread to talk about Destiny. I never called him alt-right, learn to read.

No, what did he say there that you disagreed with on insurance?

[Hate 20103]

I work in a county that has legalized marijuana. That hasn't stopped pretextual stops, harrasment, profiling, and killing. Just this week LA Sheriffs killed a man during a struggle. The entire incident started when they detained him for "bicycle code violations." They used to justify stops and detentions by saying they smelled the "odor of marijuana." Now they just say they smelled the "odor of burnt marijuana" which gives them cause to stop a motorist/cyclist for DWI. Strangely, the cases never turn up marijuana.

Yeah, I don’t at all figure it will solve all of the issues of “driving while black”. I was more suggesting that fewer black men taken out of homes or shackled with criminal records and jail time would eventually lead to a more positive outcome for minorities over time. Clearly there are still and always will be bad cops that stop people for being a minority and look for laws the may have been broken. I don’t know how you stop that other than to somehow track those incidents and fire the cops who do so regularly.

[bad_teammate 13132]

7 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

No, what did he say there that you disagreed with on insurance?

I'm not watching a 27-minute video of a video game streamer who wants armed vigilantes to run people over in the streets.

I've also been pretty clear about what should happen to people who lose property in riots: They should be made whole. If insurance doesn't cover it, we should cover it with public funds because it's our fault this is happening. I say this constantly, but people like you aren't emotionally satisfied by that because what you want to believe isn't what is true.

[workswithseed 2035]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I'm not watching a 27-minute video of a video game streamer who wants armed vigilantes to run people over in the streets.

I've also been pretty clear about what should happen to people who lose property in riots: They should be made whole. If insurance doesn't cover it, we should cover it with public funds because it's our fault this is happening. I say this constantly, but people like you aren't emotionally satisfied by that because what you want to believe isn't what is true.

How do you know what he said, unless you watched it. I also don't remember him saying running anyone over.

[JBJ 3648]

This is fullest I could find:

It is quite similar to Floyd/Timpa.

Edit: This is prolly the wrong thread...

Edited September 3, 2020 by JBJ

[BLKNSTY 289]

27 minutes ago, JBJ said:

That one does look worse.  The original it looks like they held him down for a few moments then rolled him over when he went unresponsive.  Is there a full version somewhere?

14 minute video

[bad_teammate 13132]

Just now, workswithseed said:

How do you know what he said, unless you watched it.

I don't know what he said in the 27-minute video because I didn't watch it and won't. Even if it was some intelligent and respectable source posting a 27-minute video is idiotic. At least put a timestamp in.

Do you think anyone is watching that video? Seriously.

Quote

I also don't remember him saying running anyone over.

I guess "mowing down" could mean different things. Running them over, shooting them. Not entirely sure what distinction you're trying to draw here.

 

[workswithseed 2035]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

I don't know what he said in the 27-minute video because I didn't watch it and won't. Even if it was some intelligent and respectable source posting a 27-minute video is idiotic. At least put a timestamp in.

Do you think anyone is watching that video? Seriously.

I guess "mowing down" could mean different things. Running them over, shooting them. Not entirely sure what distinction you're trying to draw here.

 

Oh, nice snippit you might want to watch the whole thing, unless you're out of touch like he says before hand. I agree with him. Why shouldn't they be able to protect their properties, or others as a community like Brisket wants? 

[fattyflattie 4636]

25 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Just this week LA Sheriffs killed a man during a struggle.

They guy who punched the officer, then ditched his pistol?   Particular way of phrasing that.

[Thatguy 8492]

10 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

They guy who punched the officer, then ditched his pistol?   Particular way of phrasing that.

He did what you just did.....

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

He did what you just did.....

Almost.  One of us was misleading by omission.  

Edited September 3, 2020 by fattyflattie

[Foosters 17727]

16 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

They guy who punched the officer, then ditched his pistol?   Particular way of phrasing that.

How would you phrase it? They gently ended his life?

The incident started from a stop for bicycle code violations. If that person is white, he's alive today.\

I realize that you, and others on this thread, believe that police killings are justified so long as we can find a crime the deceased was committing or could have committed. Fortunately for the rest of us, the system doesn't work that way.

Last edit: I've been working with the LA Sheriffs department for almost a decade. I believe nothing they say until it can be independently verified.  Coincidentally I'm sure, LASD has resisted body cams for years and to this day, they do not wear them. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Foosters

[fattyflattie 4636]

How would I phrase it?

A man was pulled over and accosted for some bullshit reason.  Knowing that he would likely face charges for the firearm he was concealing, he decided it was a better idea to try and evade/fight with the cops.  Once the gun was in sight, all bets were off.  He chose poorly.  

Now lets review the choices he made, which unfortunately contributed to his unplanned life donation.  

1) carrying firearm (illegally) 

2) fighting with cop

3) running from police.  

Did the cops shoot use too much force?  Probably.  The problem lies in both camps for me.  Should he have been pulled over for whatever bullshit reason, no.  Should he have been carrying a gun? No.  Should he have fought with the officers, no.  Chicken and egg it all you want, very preventable choices on both sides could have saved this guys life.  But Racism!! is so much easier to shout.