Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Rougarou 594]

19 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Rochester police killing was ghastly. This nation is a powder keg ready to go off. Looks like something out of Abu Ghraib.

I thought of this and it makes me think, at the macro level, there is a risk that all of this is perhaps heading down the path of "Arab Spring" where you have all this unrest and young people who are marching and protesting and making noise and breaking glass (both figuratively and literally) to be heard by the mainstream and the entire globe...and then, what? Potentially nothing. Fall and Football then Winter and Christmas then vaccine and then it's the Summer of 2021 and...

I think the Fall/Winter it's up to us to keep the conversation going and keep the pressure on. If you can get out and peacefully protest the next time the wave comes around your side of the stadium, participate.

Don't let this be for naught.

Say their names.

[Brisketexan 104557]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

Potentially nothing.

Nothing will happen because deep down, a majority of Americans WANT their cops to be brutal, lawless authoritarians.  I think it really is that simple.  Even the people who pay lip-service to the idea of "yeah, there are things the cops should do better" in the end, still want their cops to be HOORAH GIT SOME badasses, whooping all the criminal's asses (and how do we know that the criminals deserve it?  Well, the cops are whooping their asses, and that means they deserve it!)  Don't assume any complexity in American thinking -- there isn't any.  We have the police we have because that's the police we want.

[Rougarou 594]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Nothing will happen because deep down, a majority of Americans WANT their cops to be brutal, lawless authoritarians.  I think it really is that simple.  Even the people who pay lip-service to the idea of "yeah, there are things the cops should do better" in the end, still want their cops to be HOORAH GIT SOME badasses, whooping all the criminal's asses (and how do we know that the criminals deserve it?  Well, the cops are whooping their asses, and that means they deserve it!)  Don't assume any complexity in American thinking -- there isn't any.  We have the police we have because that's the police we want.

No, I think the majority of Americans are against this. Which is what we are seeing in the streets.

But, I think that the majority of Americans with wealth, influence, power, decision-making power, etc. believe what you say in the bold. But that is NOT a majority.

The majority are us poor (relatively speaking to the rich), laboring, salt of the earth folk who are saying enough is enough.

But yea, most people with comfort support the status quo and don't want their comforts rocked or taken away; water is wet.

[Brisketexan 104557]

Just now, Rougarou said:

No, I think the majority of Americans are against this. Which is what we are seeing in the streets.

But, I think that the majority of Americans with wealth, influence, power, decision-making power, etc. believe what you say in the bold. But that is NOT a majority.

The majority are us poor (relatively speaking to the rich), laboring, salt of the earth folk who are saying enough is enough.

But yea, most people with comfort support the status quo and don't want their comforts rocked or taken away; water is wet.

It goes beyond the wealthy and powerful, and you know it.  White folks of every economic class love it - they're the ones flying "Blue Lives Matter" flags and shit.

And again, even those who SAY "some things should change" really don't mean it.  They might like the cops to use more polite language while they beat the shit out of you, or lie to convict you, but that's about it.  Stop believing that the American people are good and decent.  They're not.  They're cruel cowards.  The cops are us.

[Rougarou 594]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It goes beyond the wealthy and powerful, and you know it.  White folks of every economic class love it - they're the ones flying "Blue Lives Matter" flags and shit.

And again, even those who SAY "some things should change" really don't mean it.  They might like the cops to use more polite language while they beat the shit out of you, or lie to convict you, but that's about it.  Stop believing that the American people are good and decent.  They're not.  They're cruel cowards.  The cops are us.

There are more poor and labor/working-class than the upper-middle class and above. That's simply the truth. So no, a majority of Americans are not okay with all this crap. It's the MINORITY who do want to keep the goons and status quo, because "stonks" and "real eztate brrrr'ing" and such.

The real problem-- the root cause-- it appears, is that a MINORITY of people, a smaller coalition made up of a few different demographics which all have a few similarities, are steering the ship and driving the narrative of what "America" is and means, when the MAJORITY are powerless and  their well-being is left (or at least historically hasbeen) to the minority's graciousness and generosity, which has been historically insufficient/non-existent (R) or insulting and condescending (D) for black people (and also poor white people, but less so)

Crap, I think I'm a 3rd party/Independent guy now or something.

Edited September 4, 2020 by Rougarou
for clarity/grammar

[Brisketexan 104557]

Just now, Rougarou said:

There are more poor and labor/working-class than the upper-middle class and above.

And the thing that baffles me is that you think that those people are actually voting and acting consistent with their interests -- they should absolutely have the biggest problem with authoritarian policing.

But particularly when you break it down on racial lines, that's just not the case.  Poor white folks LOVE "BLue Lives Matter."  They LOVE badass cops whooping up on bad guys (and, umm, we all know what color most of those "bad guys" are). 

The fundamental problem here is that you believe that the American people are decent at heart.  You are wrong.  Not just today's history, but 200+ years of history, says "nope."  We have fought with everything we have to maintain systems like slavery, Black Codes, and Jim Crow, and now we fight with everything we have to maintain brutal and lawless policing.  If, as a nation, we had put in half the effort that we put into those things into actually building communities and infrastructure, we'd be a paradise.  We aren't.  We're a banana republic with shinier shopping centers.

[BabaYaga 15208]

11 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Suspected shooter in Portland shooting killed by officers in Washington.

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/09/man-sought-in-the-fatal-downtown-portland-shooting-reported-to-have-been-killed-by-officers-in-wa.html

Sounds like it was a mostly peaceful arrest.

[Incredulity 11559]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And the thing that baffles me is that you think that those people are actually voting and acting consistent with their interests -- they should absolutely have the biggest problem with authoritarian policing.

But particularly when you break it down on racial lines, that's just not the case.  Poor white folks LOVE "BLue Lives Matter."  They LOVE badass cops whooping up on bad guys (and, umm, we all know what color most of those "bad guys" are). 

The fundamental problem here is that you believe that the American people are decent at heart.  You are wrong.  Not just today's history, but 200+ years of history, says "nope."  We have fought with everything we have to maintain systems like slavery, Black Codes, and Jim Crow, and now we fight with everything we have to maintain brutal and lawless policing.  If, as a nation, we had put in half the effort that we put into those things into actually building communities and infrastructure, we'd be a paradise.  We aren't.  We're a banana republic with shinier shopping centers.

fuck all that.

We've got a lot of problems to deal with.  Most of us(the overwhelming majority) are good people trying to make a living, raise a family, have a little slice of the dream and enjoy the freedoms and opportunity of America.

 

Take a breath and go for a fucking walk for Christ sake.

[Rougarou 594]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And the thing that baffles me is that you think that those people are actually voting and acting consistent with their interests -- they should absolutely have the biggest problem with authoritarian policing.

But particularly when you break it down on racial lines, that's just not the case.  Poor white folks LOVE "BLue Lives Matter."  They LOVE badass cops whooping up on bad guys (and, umm, we all know what color most of those "bad guys" are). 

The fundamental problem here is that you believe that the American people are decent at heart.  You are wrong.  Not just today's history, but 200+ years of history, says "nope."  We have fought with everything we have to maintain systems like slavery, Black Codes, and Jim Crow, and now we fight with everything we have to maintain brutal and lawless policing.  If, as a nation, we had put in half the effort that we put into those things into actually building communities and infrastructure, we'd be a paradise.  We aren't.  We're a banana republic with shinier shopping centers.

Let me ask you this to just make sure I know what I'm dealing with, are you saying that you think the majority of American's are racist, republicans, trumpkins, pro-police brutality, and the blue line matters or whatever?

Or do you think the majority of American's are in favor of equality and change and support of peaceful protests?

[BabaYaga 15208]

Just now, Rougarou said:

Let me ask you this to just make sure I know what I'm dealing with, are you saying that you think the majority of American's are racist, republicans, trumpkins, pro-police brutality, and the blue line matters or whatever?

Or do you think the majority of American's are in favor of equality and change and support of peaceful protests?

He's on one of his 'everything is fucked rants' - put him on ignore.  There's no reasoning or nuance there.  Just hyperbole and sweeping generalizations.  

[dcar00 14030]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

He's on one of his 'everything is fucked rants' - put him on ignore.  There's no reasoning or nuance there.  Just hyperbole and sweeping generalizations.  

Brisket for Mayor!!

[seven 1366]

10 hours ago, bolverk said:

 

 

What else are you supposed to do when being kidnapped? 

[Brisketexan 104557]

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Let me ask you this to just make sure I know what I'm dealing with, are you saying that you think the majority of American's are racist, republicans, trumpkins, pro-police brutality, and the blue line matters or whatever?

Or do you think the majority of American's are in favor of equality and change and support of peaceful protests?

I think that a slim majority are in favor of the IDEA of those things.  But when it gets down to reality....they aren't.  The majority of Americans are just like the majority of all other human beings -- selfish, tribal, and cruel.  We're nothing special.  That's all.

[Rougarou 594]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I think that a slim majority are in favor of the IDEA of those things.  But when it gets down to reality....they aren't.  The majority of Americans are just like the majority of all other human beings -- selfish, tribal, and cruel.  We're nothing special.  That's all.

A bit of coaching for the future and for your life: making a high-level observation, whether made with your trademark "Sound and Fury" or not, is not the same thing as digging in to a problem and mining out deep and insightful nuggets of wisdom.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

It’s an impressive god complex. 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

34 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The fundamental problem here is that you believe that the American people are decent at heart.  You are wrong.

You either hang out with shitty people or you are in an Echo Chamber that has convinced you of this. Get out more.

[Brisketexan 104557]

12 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

A bit of coaching for the future and for your life: making a high-level observation, whether made with your trademark "Sound and Fury" or not, is not the same thing as digging in to a problem and mining out deep and insightful nuggets of wisdom.

I mean, I'm not offering up any particular god-like wisdom here.  Most of the world is made up of selfish, tribal, cruel people.  Why would we be any different?  Maybe my larger point is dismissing the foolish concept of "American Exceptionalism."

And I don't think that looking at evidence is foolish either.  We have shitty police.  We've had shitty police for a long, long time.  And we've known it.  Shit, for a century-plus, the police were a crucial element of a structure designed to imprison and effectively enslave black people as convict labor, keep black people from voting, allow/assist with lynching, and then use the "war on drugs" as a great proxy for the former Black Codes....and we were good with that.  Those are just some plain facts of the history of American policing.  No "echo chamber" -- just historical fact.  I'm not talking about what people SAY they believe -- I'm looking at real action.  The proof is in the pudding.

I truly don't understand why that take is some "god complex" or somesuch.  It doesn't seem to me to be terribly controversial. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Hate 20103]

Let me ask you this to just make sure I know what I'm dealing with, are you saying that you think the majority of American's are racist, republicans, trumpkins, pro-police brutality, and the blue line matters or whatever?
Or do you think the majority of American's are in favor of equality and change and support of peaceful protests?

Imagine this is Kanye’s voice.

Brisket hates white people.

[Rougarou 594]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, I'm not offering up any particular god-like wisdom here.  Most of the world is made up of selfish, tribal, cruel people.  Why would we be any different?  Maybe my larger point is dismissing the foolish concept of "American Exceptionalism."

And I don't think that looking at evidence is foolish either.  We have shitty police.  We've had shitty police for a long, long time.  And we've known it.  Shit, for a century-plus, the police were a crucial element of a structure designed to imprison and effectively enslave black people as convict labor, keep black people from voting, allow/assist with lynching, and then use the "war on drugs" as a great proxy for the former Black Codes....and we were good with that.  Those are just some plain facts of the history of American policing.

I truly don't understand why that take is some "god complex" or somesuch.  It doesn't seem to me to be terribly controversial. 

Sure, at our worst, individual people are selfish, cruel, tribal, all that you said-- maybe even innately or instinctively, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's the result of the corrupted world around us, i.e. environmental.

That doesn't mean people aren't capable of banding together for better and for change.

Ultimately it boils down to this: My position is that I think the majority of Americans are in favor of good and change and the peaceful protests represent that, and that the main problem is the majority don't have any influence or power versus the minority with the resources.

You think that the majority of Americans are in favor of police killing black people, indirectly or directly, and that there is no hope.

What I'm curious about is this: Is your thesis of hopelessness informed by your vanity and narcissism and delusions of grandeur as a sociologist and thinker due to messageboard points (my theory) OR is your buy-in of the hopelessness what has created this sort of bloated, bland, middle-class nihlism (which would be interesting and more, dangerous, but also worth investigating)?

Edited September 4, 2020 by Rougarou

[bad_teammate 13132]

23 minutes ago, seven said:

 

What else are you supposed to do when being kidnapped? 

Here's my guess:

"Counter-protesters" (fascists, because what they're "counter"-protesting is people who are demonstrating against the killing of Daniel Prude, which means the "counter" is pro-police-killing-a-helpless-black-guy) are in the area, police don't want them to get jumped by the massive crowd, so they escort them into their (not-police) vehicle.

The fascists (authoritarian (pro-police-extrajudicial-killing) ultranationalists (full American flag gear at the demonstration)) then take off and assault the crowd with a deadly weapon (the car) because they are angry/fearful.

I don't think the police said, "OK go plow through the crowd!"

I ALSO don't think the police will work very hard to find the driver and I don't think the justice system will do anything to him/her even if found.

 

[TriStone 1724]

3 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

You either hang out with shitty people or you are in an Echo Chamber that has convinced you of this. Get out more.

Wow, this!.  That's just a miserably sad outlook.  Pitiable.

[Post Oak 20183]

 

[BabaYaga 15208]

2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Is your thesis of hopelessness informed by your vanity and narcissism and delusions of grandeur as a sociologist and thinker due to messageboard points (my theory)

Easily proved if we could identify on each user which forums contribute the most to their "total reputation".  Over/under 70-80%+ are from the CR?

[TriStone 1724]

1 minute ago, Post Oak said:

 

Document the harassment and lawyer up.  Next outrage please.

[Brisketexan 104557]

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Sure, at our worst, individual people are selfish, cruel, tribal, all that you said-- maybe even innately or instinctively, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's the result of the corrupted world around us, i.e. environmental.

That doesn't mean people aren't capable of banding together for better and for change.

Ultimately it boils down to this: My position is that I think the majority of Americans are in favor of good and change and the peaceful protests represent that, and that the main problem is the majority don't have any influence or power versus the minority with the resources.

You think that the majority of Americans are in favor of police killing black people, indirectly or directly, and that there is no hope.

What I'm curious about is this: Is your thesis of hopelessness informed by your vanity and narcissism and delusions of grandeur as a sociologist and thinker due to messageboard points (my theory) OR is your buy-in of the hopelessness has created a sort of bloated, middle-class nihlism (which would be interesting and more, dangerous, but also worth investigating)?

I think that we are increasingly isolated and individualistic.  We have created a cult of the individual, at the complete and total cost of the community.  That naturally leads to even more distilled selfishness and nihilism.  "It takes a village" isn't some catch phrase -- it's how we are supposed to operate as a species.  Yet we have utterly dismissed and disdained that concept in the interest of the cult of the individual.  But biology is still there, and we still crave our tribe.....so we act that out in the laziest, easiest, and worst ways -- we scorn and enjoy the suffering of "the other."  Shit, read how many people discuss the concepts here -- "Americans" should feel one way, "black people" should feel another. 

We're not different than other people, but as our culture has developed into pure individualism, we have enhanced our worst traits.  If we could reach a point of relative consensus, and actually believe, that "Americans" and "black people" are indeed the same group, and that how our neighbors fare under this system MATTERS, then we'd be in a vastly different boat.

You see millions of people in the streets.  You don't see the millions who aren't in the streets, ranging from people who openly oppose the movement, to those who say "they have some good ideas, but there has been rioting, so they're illegitimate," to those who are just silent.....but still like their cops to whoop up on bad guys.

Don't believe what people say.  Believe what they do, or don't do.  

[Helobious 9480]

9 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

You either hang out with shitty people or you are in an Echo Chamber that has convinced you of this. Get out more.

Most people aren’t cruel or bad, or good necessarily. Most people are just self-interested. Usually it doesn’t serve your self interest to treat everyone like shit. As for the rest, there’s some pure souls out there, as well as a lot of just rotten people. And then you have a very few, small number of irredeemably evil folks sprinkled in. 
 

Fwiw, I really do think the internet and social media brings out the very worst in everyone, hence every comment section ever. People posting or retweeting racist, hateful, or violent shit they would never have the balls to say in person. The benefit of being decent to folks you meet in person is completely gone.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

3 minutes ago, Helobious said:

 People posting or retweeting racist, hateful, or violent shit they would never have the balls to say in person.

Can't remember who said it, but they determined you could fix social media hate overnight if everyone could choose 1 post per year and doxx who was behind the post. People would definitely think twice before spewing their filth. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

15 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

 

Pre-crime, baby!

[BabaYaga 15208]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Can't remember who said it, but they determined you could fix social media hate overnight if everyone could choose 1 post per year and doxx who was behind the post. People would definitely think twice before spewing their filth. 

Funny how consequences matter

[dcar00 14030]

21 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

- The poor commit a lot of crime.

Option 1 - Harass the poor.
Option 2 - Eliminate poverty.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Don't believe what people say.  Believe what they do, or don't do.

But don't judge it by one event. I've lived my life trying to be a mentor to people of all race, color, and creed because I was lucky enough to be mentored by some great people in my life that allowed me to be successful. I've used my position and money to help out people who I believe have been put in my path. But that doesn't mean I have to go "all in" on every "cause celebre" because "silence is violence". Fuck that. I sleep well at night knowing I'm a positive force for my family, job, community, etc. 

[Rougarou 594]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

- The poor commit a lot of crime.

Option 1 - Harass the poor.
Option 2 - Eliminate poverty.

To save the poor from their lot?

There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you got.

[Cacti 191]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 Don't assume any complexity in American thinking -- there isn't any.  

The quotes below may prove your point.

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 Stop believing that the American people are good and decent.  They're not.  They're cruel cowards.  

Nothing will happen because deep down, a majority of Americans WANT their cops to be brutal, lawless authoritarians.

We're a banana republic with shinier shopping centers.

 

[Brisketexan 104557]

14 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

But don't judge it by one event. I've lived my life trying to be a mentor to people of all race, color, and creed because I was lucky enough to be mentored by some great people in my life that allowed me to be successful. I've used my position and money to help out people who I believe have been put in my path. But that doesn't mean I have to go "all in" on every "cause celebre" because "silence is violence". Fuck that. I sleep well at night knowing I'm a positive force for my family, job, community, etc. 

And ultimately, that is indeed the most important thing we can do.  Good on ya.  It's just demoralizing as hell to realize the hard truth that 1) it's not enough, and 2) it will never be enough.

A whole "depravity of man" theological thing going on there, I guess.

[BabaYaga 15208]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

A whole "depravity of man" theological thing going on there, I guess.

Also labeled depression and mild to varying bi-polar disorder.  Get checked.  You are a fucking mess.  

[Rougarou 594]

10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Also labeled depression and mild to varying bi-polar disorder.  Get checked.  You are a fucking mess.  

Why not both?

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

It's just demoralizing as hell to realize the hard truth that 1) it's not enough, and 2) it will never be enough.

I choose to believe there are a hell of a lot more people doing good (quietly) then there are doing evil (noisily). Change the things you can change. I can't fix the problem of starvation in Africa, but I can make sure my neighbor isn't hungry. I can't stop racism, but I can teach my son that racism is wrong and reflect it in my actions.

[Sgt Hulk 13644]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

It goes beyond the wealthy and powerful, and you know it.  White folks of every economic class love it - they're the ones flying "Blue Lives Matter" flags and shit.

And again, even those who SAY "some things should change" really don't mean it.  They might like the cops to use more polite language while they beat the shit out of you, or lie to convict you, but that's about it.  Stop believing that the American people are good and decent.  They're not.  They're cruel cowards.  The cops are us.

Does your wife’s boyfriend think you’re a gigantic pussy as well or do you just portray that online with your constant bitching and crying 

[Brisketexan 104557]

Does your wife’s boyfriend think you’re a gigantic pussy as well or do you just portray that online with your constant bitching and crying 

Naah. I just see that people are dicks, and proud of it. You know, case in point quoted above.

[BabaYaga 15208]

29 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

Does your wife’s boyfriend think you’re a gigantic pussy as well or do you just portray that online with your constant bitching and crying 

[Foosters 17727]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

Also labeled depression and mild to varying bi-polar disorder.  Get checked.  You are a fucking mess.  

We all have our roles. His is eternal pessimist. Yours is to argue that black men deserved to be killed by police.

Just embrace it man.

[Rougarou 594]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Naah. I just see that people are dicks, and proud of it. You know, case in point quoted above.

You are getting what Gartner calls "Social Feedback." You, of course, are free to do with that what you wish, but yea. It's your life though and I'm guessing (really hoping) you aren't such a soggy diaper in real life and this is an exaggeration of your personality (social media/online tends to do) or maybe you are work-shopping some sort of voice or character for an upcoming creative project you are trying to get off the ground.

Anyways, I think you are wrong. The majority of Americans don't want cops killing black people, directly or indirectly, and there is hope.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

13 minutes ago, Foosters said:

We all have our roles. His is eternal pessimist. Yours is to argue that black men deserved to be killed by police.

Just embrace it man.

[BabaYaga 15208]

28 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Yours is to argue that black men deserved to be killed by police.

And you can go fuck yourself you sanctimonious little twat....

[BabaYaga 15208]

25 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

soggy diaper

Yeah, that's gonna' stick...

[leaf 681]

6 hours ago, Thatguy said:

executed

He fired 40-50 rounds at the cops before they shot him.  I think returning fire and killing him is justified.  

 

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Stop it. He a surly socialist hero. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

- The poor commit a lot of crime.

Option 2 - Eliminate poverty.

LOL

3 hours ago, Rougarou said:

There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you got.

Correct.  There's a whole lot of poor people that would be poor again in 2 years if you gave them a million.  Some people just don't know how to be anything but. 

[fattyflattie 4636]

16 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Suspected shooter in Portland shooting killed by officers in Washington.

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/09/man-sought-in-the-fatal-downtown-portland-shooting-reported-to-have-been-killed-by-officers-in-wa.html

Guy sounded like a real winner.  Constant gun issues, street racing teenage son while under influence with 11 yo daughter in car, and general shitheelery. Oh, and murder.   Good riddance, fuck head.