Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Rougarou 594]

 

Do you actually, sincerely believe that the people rioting are just people who are jaded after a long period of peaceful struggle? Do you even believe the arguments you make or are you trolling?

I mean you can ridicule if it’s easier for you than to engage, but it’s lazy. Serious answer, yes I totally believe that the people rioting are people fed up with not moving the needle in peaceful ways. As do people like brisket, etc. from what I understand?

[Brisketexan 106628]

Brisket for Mayor!
The IRS has been bullshit from the get go and got worse very recently.  no one fixed it or rioted.  I'm gonna give the local garbage men a pass, those guys work hard.
to be honest, in the largest free and open society in the world with 330M people and the amount of violent crime, I was actually surprised it was approx 1000 people a year killed by cops.
 

Cool. Compare our ratio with that of other western democracies (police shootings/killings per million). We take a fucking beating in that comparison. And of course, the issues here go way beyond just killings; there’s the racial profiling, the beatings, the lying to get convictions, etc.

let me simplify Brisket for Mayor speak for you. "its all your fault"

Huh. I thought we were a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. I must have missed where we collectively decided that when it comes to the actions of our govt officials working for us, our national motto is “not my problem, tough shit for you guys.”

When OUR government agents, performing jobs we demand that they do, for us, does bad shit...yeah, I guess I take the wacky position that we bear significant responsibility for that.

[BNB 100]

It seems like the riots have quelled since The State Police were deputized by the Feds to start charging people since the Portland DA just lets them back out on the street.

That should be good for the Protesters to protest in peace and not have their message lost.

Everyone is probably moving to DC though.  I've heard they are going to do a big protest there until the election. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by BNB

[Celery Man 21076]

Probably pointless but maybe I can try and translate a bit.

Nobody to almost nobody here wants rioting, or thinks that rioting and destruction are positive*, or that rioting, burning, looting, destruction are things that are good or wanted.

On an individual level, individuals who are rioting and looting and destroying property should be held accountable. Note that this is different than people who are protesting peacefully. There are people who are peacefully protesting who are not rioting. There are people who are engaging in the protests and then rioting. There are people on the "left" side who are rioting and destroying property. There are people on the "right" side who are rioting and destroying property. There are police who are trying to protect private property from destruction in rioting. There are police who are trying to squash the protests or even bash in heads. There are police who may be skirting the law in a theoretical good faith attempt to prevent looting and destruction. There are police who are disregarding the law because they are enemies of the protestors, and are engaged in their own counter protest. And then there is all of this other weird shit with federal troops, which is largely just wrong but lets set that aside for the moment.

When the social contract is broken, the social contract breaks both ways. When the people who are meant to protect and enforce the law instead attack and break the law, people riot and burn shit and act out violently. When we discuss the social contract, we're talking on a macro level. On an individual level individuals should be held responsible for their action. If you want people, on a macro level, to *not* get violent, burn shit down, riot, etc when there is a large feeling that the social contract is broken, tough shit. That's what happens. I'm not saying people should go do that. I'm not saying that nobody should be held accountable for engaging in that. What is being said is that rioting, burning, destruction of property is a consequence of the breakdown of law and order. If you think it shouldn't be, that doesn't matter. It is. Wanting it to be different doesn't make it so, for either of us. If you think people are wrong to feel that there is a breach of the social contract, a breakdown of law and order - that's a somewhat different conversation and one that could potentially be productive.

 

* we could get into a whole thing about if change ever happens without unrest, and so through a certain light unrest can be positive, but definitely nobody here wants us to be in that place where that is what is happening

Edited September 12, 2020 by Celery Man

[dcar00 14905]

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool. Compare our ratio with that of other western democracies (police shootings/killings per million). We take a fucking beating in that comparison. And of course, the issues here go way beyond just killings; there’s the racial profiling, the beatings, the lying to get convictions, etc.

Huh. I thought we were a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people. I must have missed where we collectively decided that when it comes to the actions of our govt officials working for us, our national motto is “not my problem, tough shit for you guys.”

When OUR government agents, performing jobs we demand that they do, for us, does bad shit...yeah, I guess I take the wacky position that we bear significant responsibility for that.

agreed the people in these cities need to vote the people responsible for the police out.

[52-80 19379]

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool. Compare our ratio with that of other western democracies (police shootings/killings per million). We take a fucking beating in that comparison. And of course, the issues here go way beyond just killings; there’s the racial profiling, the beatings, the lying to get convictions, etc.

Which nations do you want to compare?  And you want to normalize those numbers to the level of crime in those countries?  When you face lots of violent criminals everyday, the rate of incident scales appropriately.  Cause, effect.

 

BTW, yes I think plenty of cops are dicks.  I think in many cases they are benefactors of the blue shield.  I also think there is too much inequality in America.  And I think the country can benefit from higher tax rates and better allocation of public capital.  

 

But what I don't think is happening is the root cause is police in large targeting a particular group wantonly, for absolutely no reason.  And you know this.

[Brisketexan 106628]

Which nations do you want to compare?  And you want to normalize those numbers to the level of crime in those countries?  When you face lots of violent criminals everyday, the rate of incident scales appropriately.  Cause, effect.
 
BTW, yes I think plenty of cops are dicks.  I think in many cases they are benefactors of the blue shield.  I also think there is too much inequality in America.  And I think the country can benefit from higher tax rates and better allocation of public capital.  
 
But what I don't think is happening is the root cause is police in large targeting a particular group wantonly, for absolutely no reason.  And you know this.

Except it’s both. We have a broken system...AND it carries a good bit of systemic and personal bias and racism. Come on, man - the cops are gonna hassle the black guy in the nice hotel lobby at a much higher rate than a similar white guy. We all know that.

[Brisketexan 106628]

agreed the people in these cities need to vote the people responsible for the police out.

That may indeed be part of it...but when their opponents are running on a platform of “vote for me, and I’ll make the cops kick even MORE asses! Law and order!”....that’s not gonna solve the problem. It will make it even worse. Or, you vote in a reform-minded candidate, and the state lege and governor decode that your city needs to be punished for not “backing the blue.” It’s nice to think that changing a city council member will fix things, but it rarely will.

The changes we need are much bigger and broader than just “switch out Mayor Quimby.” And of course, you know that. Local, state, and national...and importantly, societal. If we end up at a place where the people don’t just blindly demand cops who will crack skulls and bring “law and order,” then the entire electoral landscape changes. Until “I’ll work to make our policing fair, legal, and accountable” is a winning political position, everything else is pissing into the wind.

[dcar00 14905]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That may indeed be part of it...but when their opponents are running on a platform of “vote for me, and I’ll make the cops kick even MORE asses! Law and order!”....that’s not gonna solve the problem. It will make it even worse. Or, you vote in a reform-minded candidate, and the state lege and governor decode that your city needs to be punished for not “backing the blue.” It’s nice to think that changing a city council member will fix things, but it rarely will.

The changes we need are much bigger and broader than just “switch out Mayor Quimby.” And of course, you know that. Local, state, and national...and importantly, societal. If we end up at a place where the people don’t just blindly demand cops who will crack skulls and bring “law and order,” then the entire electoral landscape changes. Until “I’ll work to make our policing fair, legal, and accountable” is a winning political position, everything else is pissing into the wind.

and of course you know that the police are run by local government and the general public is not the issue.  people don't blindly demand cops "crack skulls" of course you know that but it is a nice sound bite.  the people rioting aren't doing it because of your perceived, not living up to the social contract.  they are rioting because they like breaking shit, causing chaos, and/or free cell phones, jewlery, TV, and apparently bread.

[Brisketexan 106628]

and of course you know that the police are run by local government and the general public is not the issue.  people don't blindly demand cops "crack skulls" of course you know that but it is a nice sound bite.  the people rioting aren't doing it because of your perceived, not living up to the social contract.  they are rioting because they like breaking shit, causing chaos, and/or free cell phones, jewlery, TV, and apparently bread.

I mean, I know gaslighting is fun and all, but I didn’t imagine the past several decades of candidates for local offices, sheriff, etc, running as “law and order, tough on crime!” candidates. That actually happened. Still does.

And the governor responding to a city that had the gall to actually try to start taking reform and funding measures by threatening to take away their control of their police altogether. That happened. Like, this week.

So, keep trying, but you’re still way off the mark. Nothing will change until the voting public as a whole decides it wants reform instead of more “law and order” like sheriff Chody, etc.

[dcar00 14905]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I mean, I know gaslighting is fun and all, but I didn’t imagine the past several decades of candidates for local offices, sheriff, etc, running as “law and order, tough on crime!” candidates. That actually happened. Still does.

And the governor responding to a city that had the gall to actually try to start taking reform and funding measures by threatening to take away their control of their police altogether. That happened. Like, this week.

So, keep trying, but you’re still way off the mark. Nothing will change until the voting public as a whole decides it wants reform instead of more “law and order” like sheriff Chody, etc.

sure the governor can say what he wants. the courts will sort out what he can actually do.

at what point are we good?  when the percentage of black people killed by police equals their population? are we good when the rioting and protesting stops? are we good when 1000 people killed by cops drops to half dozen or zero? are we good if we just abolish police unions but not other public sector unions?

keep trying and building your strawmen

[Willfully Horn 8204]

On 9/10/2020 at 3:29 PM, Cheeseweasel said:

That's a slow weekend in Chicago. You know, all those "white supremacists"  gunning each other down there.

I do not think that’s part of the supremacist deal. Since your inference is black on black violence, I do not believe that violence in Chicago is the work of “black supremacists.” But, whatever is behind intraracial violence, white folks kill more white folks than black folks kill black folks, daily, in aggregate, in the good ol’ USA. It is fair to say that, given population percentage, black people are disproportionately at risk of that sort of violence, too. And that must fucking suck.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

As socioeconomic forces are likely a major contributor to intraracial violence, it would be interesting to see the aggregate data broken down by both race and economic circumstance.

[52-80 19379]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Except it’s both. We have a broken system...AND it carries a good bit of systemic and personal bias and racism. Come on, man - the cops are gonna hassle the black guy in the nice hotel lobby at a much higher rate than a similar white guy. We all know that.

Any cop like that would harass other people equally.  Prejudices against minorities?  Like it exists in every aspect society in every society since the beginning of time, sure.  But you make it seem like every PD has a death squad out shooting africans got sport (which is an actual quote I read from someone).

[Brisketexan 106628]

Any cop like that would harass other people equally.  Prejudices against minorities?  Like it exists in every aspect society in every society since the beginning of time, sure.  But you make it seem like every PD has a death squad out shooting africans got sport (which is an actual quote I read from someone).

No, not a death squad killing for sport. But definitely carrying and practicing bias that leads to more and disproportionate interactions with black people, arrests (don’t cut them any slack), amped up violent confrontations (more likely to snap into use of force), etc. That’s a real thing. The incarceration rate of blacks to whites in Mass., for example, is 8:1. No amount of “they made bad choices” accounts for that vast a disparity.

 

I do suspect that holding police accountable broadly, and other reform measures that help everyone, will also help significantly with racial disparities as well.

 

Oh....and the “any cop like that would harass people equally”....come the fuck on, man. That’s not how it works. They interrogated my friend in the lobby because he was black, and “didn’t belong there,” while who’re guys dressed and acting the same were left alone. That cop literally did NOT “harass people equally.” It’s the whole “driving while black” thing. We all know that’s real.

[Willfully Horn 8204]

11 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

sure the governor can say what he wants. the courts will sort out what he can actually do.

at what point are we good?  when the percentage of black people killed by police equals their population? are we good when the rioting and protesting stops? are we good when 1000 people killed by cops drops to half dozen or zero? are we good if we just abolish police unions but not other public sector unions?

keep trying and building your strawmen

I know you weren’t asking me, but I subscribe to your solutions. 

[Brisketexan 106628]

I know you weren’t asking me, but I subscribe to your solutions. 

My benchmark isn’t hard: when we show strong and continued improvement, and hold accountable cops who work against that.

Perfection is never a reasonable goal. There will always be a bad cop, a racist cop, or both. Building a system that 1) puts fewer of those in place and 2) holds them accountable immediately when those that slip through are out of line, is what we should want.

And yes, taking an entirely different approach to mental health and mental health calls, ending the war on drugs, and all kinds of other stuff....but with respect to how the cops perform....the benchmarks I have above would be great.

[Willfully Horn 8204]

Seems reasonable. 

What do we have to lose?

[Brisketexan 106628]

Seems reasonable. 
What do we have to lose?

Our country, if the political ads I’m seeing for all races, local and national, are to be believed.

Blind “law and order” and “I back the blue” are winning platforms. They actively resist any reform efforts. So, again, until we the people decide that’s not what we want, we’ll get more of that, and we’ll get it good and hard.

[Willfully Horn 8204]

24 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Any cop like that would harass other people equally.  Prejudices against minorities?  Like it exists in every aspect society in every society since the beginning of time, sure.  But you make it seem like every PD has a death squad out shooting africans got sport (which is an actual quote I read from someone).

Tautologically incorrect, no? Overt prejudice gets one fired from most government jobs. After warnings, and training films.

[workswithseed 2201]

4 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Seems reasonable. 

What do we have to lose?

 

[52-80 19379]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Cool. Compare our ratio with that of other western democracies (police shootings/killings per million). We take a fucking beating in that comparison.

Here is the best proxy for violence I can find, United Nations office on Drugs and Crime intentional homicide RATE (per xx population)

UK: 1.2

Italy: 0.57

Australia: 0.89

France: 1.2

Germany: 0.95

USA: 4.96

 

On aggregate, the US is 5.6x more violent than these countries.

Add on top of that, the US has 8x the number of firearms per person.

 

So what do you think tends to happen, when the police force runs into people that are 5.6x as violent, with 8x higher chance of having deadly arms?

 

Please answer with facts and statistics instead of emotions and feelings.

[Willfully Horn 8204]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Our country, if the political ads I’m seeing for all races, local and national, are to be believed.

Blind “law and order” and “I back the blue” are winning platforms. They actively resist any reform efforts. So, again, until we the people decide that’s not what we want, we’ll get more of that, and we’ll get it good and hard.

Tough to disagree about these ads being persuasive. Because almost everyone would like lawful order and to be able to back the blue. Framing the debate in terms of rule of law would help, IMO, because most folks want that, too.

[Celery Man 21076]

Maybe we should try to have less violence and fewer guns.

[52-80 19379]

4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Maybe we should try to have less violence and fewer guns.

and no cops.  no cops = no cop-related shooting.  problem solved.

[Sawbonz 28084]

19 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Here is the best proxy for violence I can find, United Nations office on Drugs and Crime intentional homicide RATE (per xx population)

UK: 1.2

Italy: 0.57

Australia: 0.89

France: 1.2

Germany: 0.95

USA: 4.96

 

On aggregate, the US is 5.6x more violent than these countries.

Add on top of that, the US has 8x the number of firearms per person.

 

So what do you think tends to happen, when the police force runs into people that are 5.6x as violent, with 8x higher chance of having deadly arms?

 

Please answer with facts and statistics instead of emotions and feelings.

I think if the cops were lighting up dudes who were strapped (which your stats imply should be the case) we wouldn’t have near the backlash. That is not the case though. They don’t even bother with a throw down piece these days

Edited September 12, 2020 by Sawbonz

[Celery Man 21076]

I didn't say that. Very few people are saying that, almost nobody means that. I don't think anybody here has said that at all.

[Willfully Horn 8204]

18 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Here is the best proxy for violence I can find, United Nations office on Drugs and Crime intentional homicide RATE (per xx population)

UK: 1.2

Italy: 0.57

Australia: 0.89

France: 1.2

Germany: 0.95

USA: 4.96

 

On aggregate, the US is 5.6x more violent than these countries.

Add on top of that, the US has 8x the number of firearms per person.

 

So what do you think tends to happen, when the police force runs into people that are 5.6x as violent, with 8x higher chance of having deadly arms?

 

Please answer with facts and statistics instead of emotions and feelings. 

I think police do what citizens do. They are paid to be better, though. Isn’t that a fact?

 

[Sawbonz 28084]

2 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I didn't say that. Very few people are saying that, almost nobody means that. I don't think anybody here has said that at all.

Well see either you are ok with cops indiscriminately using lethal force on our super violent society or you want to get rid of all cops. There are no other options 

[52-80 19379]

Just now, Sawbonz said:

Well see either you are ok with cops indiscriminately using lethal force on our super violent society or you want to get rid of all cops. There are no other options 

but I thought they were discriminate tho, based on skin color?

[Sawbonz 28084]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

but I thought they were discriminate tho, based on skin color?

So that’s why you’re ok with the violence?Makes sense now

[Willfully Horn 8204]

18 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Maybe we should try to have less violence and fewer guns.

Obligatory:

 

 

[Willfully Horn 8204]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

but I thought they were discriminate tho, based on skin color?

Isn’t that a clever response!

[Willfully Horn 8204]

OK. I’m out of my depth.

Carry on.

[52-80 19379]

3 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So that’s why you’re ok with the violence?Makes sense now

what makes sense is when armed criminals resist arrest, they ratchet up the probability of the encounter going bad, regardless of theyre black, white, yellow, red, or brown. 

unless you're okay with substituting logic for selective victimization

[Celery Man 21076]

right but what if we could do things to mitigate the problem of violence

[Sawbonz 28084]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

what makes sense is when armed criminals resist arrest, they ratchet up the probability of the encounter going bad, regardless of theyre black, white, yellow, red, or brown. 

unless you're okay with substituting logic for selective victimization

So all these protests are because “armed criminals resist[ed] arrest?”

 

gtfo with that bullshit

[bad_teammate 13481]

5 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

what makes sense is when armed criminals resist arrest, they ratchet up the probability of the encounter going bad, regardless of theyre black, white, yellow, red, or brown. 

unless you're okay with substituting logic for selective victimization

Sure. It's also true that when a law enforcement officer is armed and trained to treat every encounter like it's a death sentence they ratchet up the probability of the encounter going bad.

Do we agree?

[Willfully Horn 8204]

57 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

 

Wow. What YouTube channel carries that?

[52-80 19379]

20 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So all these protests are because “armed criminals resist[ed] arrest?”

 

gtfo with that bullshit

So all these protests are because SWAT teams shot up Johnny B Goodes sitting in the church pews? 

 

gtfo with that bullshit

[Celery Man 21076]

do you think that we have a sizable population of people in this country that are simply inherently violent

[workswithseed 2201]

Just now, Willfully Horn said:

Wow. What YouTube channel carries that?

That dude. I just thought of the famous quote.

[Sawbonz 28084]

Just now, 52-80 said:

So all these protests are because SWAT teams shot up Johnny B Goodes sitting in the church pews? 

 

gtfo with that bullshit

The spark was an asshole kneeling on the neck of an unarmed handcuffed man until he stopped breathing while he and his 3 accomplices stared down the bystanders looking on helplessly. The dried kindling was all the video evidence of giant pussies gunning down unarmed (mostly) black men. The gasoline was a (black) woman killed in her own bed by a shithead coward pissing his pants during a no knock raid 

 

but yeah all that’s ok because we live in a violent society 

[52-80 19379]

1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

The spark was an asshole kneeling on the neck of an unarmed handcuffed man until he stopped breathing while he and his 3 accomplices stared down the bystanders looking on helplessly.

And that asshole should he tried, prosecuted, imprisoned, and his 3 compadres charged with various levels of complicity as well.

 

What's your excuse for the looting and burning and riot and intimidation?

 

 

[Sawbonz 28084]

7 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

And that asshole should he tried, prosecuted, imprisoned, and his 3 compadres charged with various levels of complicity as well.

 

What's your excuse for the looting and burning and riot and intimidation?

 

 

I just made an analogy of a conflagration. That not explanation enough for you?  People have had enough. This is what happens Larry

[dcar00 14905]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

My benchmark isn’t hard: when we show strong and continued improvement, and hold accountable cops who work against that.

Perfection is never a reasonable goal. There will always be a bad cop, a racist cop, or both. Building a system that 1) puts fewer of those in place and 2) holds them accountable immediately when those that slip through are out of line, is what we should want.

And yes, taking an entirely different approach to mental health and mental health calls, ending the war on drugs, and all kinds of other stuff....but with respect to how the cops perform....the benchmarks I have above would be great.

killings by police have dropped.  cops are being convicted of crimes.  who knows what the percentage is? how many good cops are there to bad cops?

  who gets to be the referee for when we reach the hard data of "strong and continued improvement"? such that people will stop rioting or protesting in streets without permits?

you probably don't realize this but what you describe are not benchmarks at all.  why shouldn't our goal be perfection?  if we can have zero killings of black men by police that should be the goal because then no one will riot.

[52-80 19379]

6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I just made an analogy of a conflagration. That not explanation enough for you?  People have had enough. This is what happens Larry

Have people had enough of violence amongst the citizenry?  Can you explain why the mobs are protesting the anomalous events rather than acknowledging the root cause? 

[Celery Man 21076]

I think the president of BLM and the president of Antifa have a zoom call and then everyone's app gets an update

[Sawbonz 28084]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Have people had enough of violence amongst the citizenry?  Can you explain why the mobs are protesting the anomalous events rather than acknowledging the root cause? 

Maybe people expect a certain percentage of citizens to be criminally violent assholes, but they expect the people they pay to “protect and serve” them not to be?

Nah you’re right. That’s a silly expectation 

[Sawbonz 28084]

3 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I think the president of BLM and the president of Antifa have a zoom call and then everyone's app gets an update

And then they round up a bunch of kids to sex traffic

[Brisketexan 106628]

killings by police have dropped.  cops are being convicted of crimes.  who knows what the percentage is? how many good cops are there to bad cops?
  who gets to be the referee for when we reach the hard data of "strong and continued improvement"? such that people will stop rioting or protesting in streets without permits?
you probably don't realize this but what you describe are not benchmarks at all.  why shouldn't our goal be perfection?  if we can have zero killings of black men by police that should be the goal because then no one will riot.

I think that we probably need to start by getting the most influential parts of our society to stop “backing the blue” no matter what they do, and excusing most everything they do wrong as “just one guy.” That wild be a fantastic start. Progress is always the goal, not perfection. You can keep beating on that straw man, but you just look silly.

Who gets to be the referee? That same public. When we reach a point that satisfies enough people - not everyone, but enough - then the protests and unrest should hopefully decline significantly. It’s how human psychology works, in both directions.

Shit’s broken. It pisses a lot of people off. If and when credible work and steps are taken, and start showing true commitment and results, fewer of those people will be pissed off. And there’s a critical mass in both directions.

What we do know is that continuing to do what we’ve been doing, and insisting that we really don’t have a problem at all (shit, see several of the posts above)...is not going to advance the ball at all.