Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Brisketexan 104618]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not letting cops do anything. The local governing body has the responsibility of overseeing police departments.  As a voting citizen I rely on them to do the job they were elected to do. How many mayors of cities across the country have attempted to show support for the protests even when they were turning violent ?  several, and in most cases they ended up getting bitten on their own hand by the very people they were cheering  on.  THAT is where the breach of a social contract is taking place.  Our duly elected officials taking social positions that have only worsened the situation this Summer, and caused them to abdicate their sworn duty to the locality they've been elected to govern. 

Are you forgetting the numerous officials, from city council members to state legislators to governors to congressman to presidents who have actively worked for, created, and entrenched both laws and philosophies of "tough on crime!" and "law and order!" and "I support law enforcement 100%?"  

You think that our broken policing is a result of politicians doing what we DON'T want them to do.  The reality is that it's a result of politicians doing exactly what we've asked of them, and rewarded them for.  For example, how well do you think a candidate for state office in Texas will do running on a platform of "fair and transparent policing where nobody is above the law?"

You don't think we have DECADES of the social contract being shit on with respect to people victimized by police and the justice system?  The breach of the social contract didn't happen until.....some mayors decided to let protests get out of hand?  Fucking seriously?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

1 hour ago, BurntEyes said:

It's not broken particularly against black people 

this guy is dialed in. 

[VABuckeye 2472]

53 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

For example, people turning over police cars, and throwing shit at police stations....that's the kind of behavior you'd expect to see from people who are sick of this shit, and feel like they're out of options.

The vast majority of people doing these actions look like middle class white kids for the most part so your assertion is bullshit.

[Brisketexan 104618]

6 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

The vast majority of people doing these actions look like middle class white kids for the most part so your assertion is bullshit.

Huh.  Okay then.  Good talk.  I guess we'll just ignore the black folks doing the same.  Man, this is awesome -- black people do some bad shit, we get to discredit all of them.  White people do some shit that might be understandable....and we focus only on the white people who do it, taking any credit away from black people for their justifiable anger.

There really is no way to win this conversation.  Nobody wants to hear it, acknowledge it, or believe it.  Ok then.  We'll just keep doing this shit, over and over, and getting what purposefully ignorant people deserve.

[dcar00 14035]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Are you forgetting the numerous officials, from city council members to state legislators to governors to congressman to presidents who have actively worked for, created, and entrenched both laws and philosophies of "tough on crime!" and "law and order!" and "I support law enforcement 100%?"  

You think that our broken policing is a result of politicians doing what we DON'T want them to do.  The reality is that it's a result of politicians doing exactly what we've asked of them, and rewarded them for.  For example, how well do you think a candidate for state office in Texas will do running on a platform of "fair and transparent policing where nobody is above the law?"

You don't think we have DECADES of the social contract being shit on with respect to people victimized by police and the justice system?  The breach of the social contract didn't happen until.....some mayors decided to let protests get out of hand?  Fucking seriously?

why now? wasn't the social contract being shit on from 1976-80, 1992-2000, 2008-2016?

[Brisketexan 104618]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

why now? wasn't the social contract being shit on from 1976-80, 1992-2000, 2008-2016?

Yes.  It was.  And we had black people telling us that the entire time (and well before that).  And we ignored them.  And sometimes, they got pissed enough to march and raise hell (I remember Rodney King, and plenty of others).  And sometimes, they managed to secure some small and/or local changes.

The biggest change, more than any others, is the ubiquity of video cameras -- from dashcams to bodycams to every person in the world having a cell phone camera.  And that's a creature of the past 10 years or so.  So, the shit that black people just TOLD us about for decades?  Now we can see it, which makes it much harder (but clearly not impossible) to discredit or ignore.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Brisketexan

[bad_teammate 13132]

29 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I'm not gonna lie here, the state being a dad, and the citizens described as children really doesn't sit right with me. 

Well it's a metaphor, so don't get too worked up about the fringe element and connotations.

The government has more power than you and it has that power in order to make sure we all act right. It might not flatter the rugged individualist ego, but it's all there in black and white.

The Preamble to the Constitution: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We give up some of our individual power to the state to ensure domestic tranquility. We give the state power to arrest us and our fellow citizens to accomplish this. When it's not working and the government isn't changing to make it work, we riot.

From The Declaration of Independence: That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Tranquility. Happiness.

[52-80 19093]

1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

Jacob Blake was not fatal, therefore not counted. There have been at least two Floyd's this year, and those are just the ones we saw on video. Daniel Prude was one of them. In case you are forgetting this IS the riots and protests thread. All of those are valid reasons for what is happening. It's not just only about fatal police shootings. All others count too.

If you want to talk non-fatal shootings, then bring up the numbers for non-fatal shootings.  I don't contend police shootings doesn't exist in America.  I contend they exist as a natural consequence of lots of run ins with lots of bad actors. 

Per FBI, there are 2000+ annual assaults on officers with firearms, and 1000+ assaults with knives or other cutting instruments.  There are 50 annual felonious deaths of officers, almost entirely by firearms. 

You know how many British, Irish, Australian, and New Zealand police died in action, in this ENTIRE DECADE combined?  10.

 

Shit doesn't happen in a vacuum.  But when you mix enough of the ingredients, it'll happen.  Sometimes unjustified (like Floyd).

As for Blake - are you certain of the facts?  what did you think would happen?  do you know whether the police were alerted of his outstanding warrants and trespassing?  whether he was armed when he was wrestling with the cops and whether or not he was still armed when he walked away? 

You know why stuff like this doesnt blow up in a place like Denmark?  because they never escalate to the point where its common for felons wrestling with cops, getting tased, and continue obstructing.

 

[dcar00 14035]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yes.  It was.  And we had black people telling us that the entire time (and well before that).  And we ignored them.  And sometimes, they got pissed enough to march and raise hell (I remember Rodney King, and plenty of others).  And sometimes, they managed to secure some small and/or local changes.

The biggest change, more than any others, is the ubiquity of video cameras -- from dashcams to bodycams to every person in the world having a cell phone camera.  And that's a creature of the past 10 years or so.  So, the shit that black people just TOLD us about for decades?  Now we can see it, which makes it much harder (but clearly not impossible) to discredit or ignore.

where were the sustained protests, civil disobedience, and riots from 2014 to 2016?

[VABuckeye 2472]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Huh.  Okay then.  Good talk.  I guess we'll just ignore the black folks doing the same.  Man, this is awesome -- black people do some bad shit, we get to discredit all of them.  White people do some shit that might be understandable....and we focus only on the white people who do it, taking any credit away from black people for their justifiable anger.

There really is no way to win this conversation.  Nobody wants to hear it, acknowledge it, or believe it.  Ok then.  We'll just keep doing this shit, over and over, and getting what purposefully ignorant people deserve.

I'm referring to the looting and destruction.  Most of it appears to be white middle class people.  My statement actually supports the narrative that the BLM movement by black people is mostly peaceful.  Now there is harassment and ridiculing of others occuring but it's mostly peaceful.  Comprende?

[Brisketexan 104618]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

You know why stuff like this doesnt blow up in a place like Denmark?  because they never escalate to the point where its common for felons wrestling with cops, getting tased, and continue obstructing.

That's not entirely incorrect.  Of course, there's a "chicken-or-the-egg" conundrum there as to where this breakdown began.  But that may be beside the point.

Of course, we also have plenty of videos, and actual analyzed data, of cops over-enforcing simple crimes like "jaywalking" against minorities at a much higher rate than they do against white people.  And then, to follow, we have plenty of instances, including video, of fucking JAYWALKING turning into cops quickly escalating, tackling, and knocking the shit out of, black people....for jaywalking.

We have a culture of violence, across the board.  But goddammit, is it too much to ask the cops to enforce the laws equally, and not to amp up and escalate the ass-kicking so fucking often, especially in trivial interactions?

[bad_teammate 13132]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Per FBI, there are 2000+ annual assaults on officers with firearms, and 1000+ assaults with knives or other cutting instruments.  There are 50 annual felonious deaths of officers, almost entirely by firearms.

You know how many British, Irish, Australian, and New Zealand police died in action, in this ENTIRE DECADE combined?  10.

That's because their citizens don't have guns, not because they're better humans.

Quote

You know why stuff like this doesnt blow up in a place like Denmark?  because they never escalate to the point where its common for felons wrestling with cops, getting tased, and continue obstructing.

Completely untrue.

There is tremendous anti-police violence in Europe, it's just not deadly because they don't get shot. If your favorite team wins a soccer game it's basically your job to throw a rock at a cop.

If I explain why this is a racist/white supremacist viewpoint I will get yelled at by the bobs, so I'm just going to pretend it's completely non-racial.

Edited September 14, 2020 by bad_teammate

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

where were the sustained protests, civil disobedience, and riots from 2014 to 2016?

well obviously this is an entirely political series of gotcha questions, so i'll answer bluntly: there wasn't a collective belief that the president of the united states was a racist piece of shit that condoned and encouraged police brutality from 2014 to 2016. 

[Brisketexan 104618]

2 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

where were the sustained protests, civil disobedience, and riots from 2014 to 2016?

Ummm.....did you MISS the events in Ferguson, including significant protests and related events nationwide, in 2014?  Now, there weren't serial events/videos immediately following that, like we're having with the Ahmad Aubrey video coming out, Blake, and several others, so that makes a difference in things being sustained over a longer term. BUT, they also build on the previous events.  In other words, they stomped their feet and raised hell in 2014.....it clearly didn't do enough, so now they're going to stomp their feet and raise even more.

[bad_teammate 13132]

There were protests and even riots in the wake of Michael Brown's killing. dcar00's argument is somewhat ahistorical and counter-factual.

But to the extent that there is a disparity in level of activity...

The governmental response was not overtly hostile to the people who were demonstrating, so the government in that regard did a more effective job of ensuring domestic tranquility.

Throw the angry mob a sop and some pleasing words to give them an excuse to calm down, vaguely address their larger concerns, keep the machine humming along.
OR
Deliberately provoke the angry mob and be surprised when they act worse.

[TwiceHorn 31276]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ummm.....did you MISS the events in Ferguson, including significant protests and related events nationwide, in 2014?  Now, there weren't serial events/videos immediately following that, like we're having with the Ahmad Aubrey video coming out, Blake, and several others, so that makes a difference in things being sustained over a longer term. BUT, they also build on the previous events.  In other words, they stomped their feet and raised hell in 2014.....it clearly didn't do enough, so now they're going to stomp their feet and raise even more.

No shit.  Geezuz Criminy.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

9 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

where were the sustained protests, civil disobedience, and riots from 2014 to 2016?

They took a knee.

[Brisketexan 104618]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

They took a knee.

And were viciously demonized for doing so.

And, you know, the whole Ferguson thing, and the birth of the concept of "black lives matter" as a nationwide movement happened in 2014.  So, you know, keep on with the false narrative.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

And were viciously demonized

Lulz. Being downvoted on twitter is now "viciously demonized". What a world...

[Brisketexan 104618]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Lulz. Being downvoted on twitter is now "viciously demonized". What a world...

Are you fucking kidding me?  Seriously?  Just for starters....

Quote

Speaking in Huntsville, AL, Trump told a group of his supporters during a campaign rally, "wouldn't you love to see one of these NFL owners, when someone disrespects our flag to say, 'get that son of a bitch off the field right now. Out. He's fired. He's fired."

 

[fattyflattie 4636]

50 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

For example, how well do you think a candidate for state office in Texas will do running on a platform of "fair and transparent policing where nobody is above the law?"

I think it would do just fine, if he had the correct letter next to his name.  

[Brisketexan 104618]

Just now, fattyflattie said:

I think it would do just fine, if he had the correct letter next to his name.  

He wouldn't make it out of the primary.  You've been in Texas a long time -- you know how this shit works.

[Celery Man 20886]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

That's a lot of words to try, and defend people smashing up other peoples property, or physically attacking them, and you failed mightily I might add.

It's not.

Again, nobody here wants people to go out and smash up businesses and burn shit down. I think Brisket is trying to make sure he's including that in what he's saying. Nobody wants that.

You may have seen some stuff about "good trouble" being thrown around with the recent death of John Lewis. It could be that part of the confusion is that you are confusing general support of "good trouble" with the fact that there is also bad trouble happening. Burning shit, smashing up property, physically attacking people - bad trouble. Nobody here wants people to do that. You may also be confused again by the discussion of something that is an inevitable consequence of something else. Pointing out that one thing is a consequence of another thing is not the same as saying that this thing is good, or supporting people in going out and doing that thing.

[Rougarou 594]

This is American Summer a la Arab Spring, meaning everyone, on both sides, should just calm down and riots/looting will be a faded memory by Christmas and business gets back to usual. I got some good inputs and education from this thread and I feel a bit more enlightened and woke.

"What always bothers me is that the long hot summer has always been preceded by a long cold winter. "

Edited September 14, 2020 by Rougarou

[Celery Man 20886]

35 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

why now? wasn't the social contract being shit on from 1976-80, 1992-2000, 2008-2016?

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Are you fucking kidding me?  Seriously?  Just for starters....

 

OMG! Imagine getting fired for pissing off your customers? HOW WILL WE SURVIVE HITLER?!?!?!

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

He wouldn't make it out of the primary.  You've been in Texas a long time -- you know how this shit works.

I was not being facetious.  You put an R behind it, and it would happen.  I don’t want to CR, but getting an R to run on that would be the challenge.  So, for Texas, add in some pro-life, low tax, everyday R ethos, add in some police reform, and see where it winds up. I think it would happen.  Now, getting politicians of either ilk to care, to care like you do, lol. 

[52-80 19093]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That's not entirely incorrect.  Of course, there's a "chicken-or-the-egg" conundrum there as to where this breakdown began.  But that may be beside the point.

Of course, we also have plenty of videos, and actual analyzed data, of cops over-enforcing simple crimes like "jaywalking" against minorities at a much higher rate than they do against white people.  And then, to follow, we have plenty of instances, including video, of fucking JAYWALKING turning into cops quickly escalating, tackling, and knocking the shit out of, black people....for jaywalking.

We have a culture of violence, across the board.  But goddammit, is it too much to ask the cops to enforce the laws equally, and not to amp up and escalate the ass-kicking so fucking often, especially in trivial interactions?

 

Your placing the blame on police totalitarian is so disingenuous.  Is it too much to ask people not to bruise their fucking feelings and "cop" an attitude when they're caught breaking the fucking law?  Yes, we know the "many cops were kids who got bullied" trope (of which I am a subscriber), but don't tell me this bullshit doesn't run both ways.

Show me all these analyzed data and videos of totally unsolicited beatings? 

[Brisketexan 104618]

1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

OMG! Imagine getting fired for pissing off your customers? HOW WILL WE SURVIVE HITLER?!?!?!

Sigh.  Sure.  That's all that happened.

The overarching effect is that they weren't just ignored.  They were actively demonized and attacked for it.  And yes, there was shit like threats on Kap's life.  If you don't even acknowledge that the attacks on the NFL players kneeling during the anthem were pervasive, enraged, and went to the highest level of the entire country, I have no use in further engagement with you.  You are being disingenuous and dishonest.

[Rougarou 594]

The thing that jumped out at me from reading this (h/t badteammate; https://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/) is that this issue is an economic issue. 

We need to be pragmatic and realistic-- people are not going to have a change of heart or minds, probably-- so the best approach is going to have to be a leveling of the playing field. And not leveling by taking away from what people already have and so that it feels punitive and sows a feeling of being cheated or taken advantage of or robbed, but one where you level the other side up. You bring them up to the level and the only way to do that is necessarily reparations.

We have to get over the idea that reparations is a bad word and once and for all balance the social and racial checkbook. This is also good because the excuses and victimhood mentality that can be a disease as well, can be eroded over time (not saying there aren't justified reasons today, but to continue on as a victim in perpetuity, is what I'm saying should be mitigated for).

Edited September 14, 2020 by Rougarou

[Brisketexan 104618]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

 

Your placing the blame on police totalitarian is so disingenuous.  Is it too much to ask people not to bruise their fucking feelings and "cop" an attitude when they're caught breaking the fucking law?  Yes, we know the "many cops were kids who got bullied" trope (of which I am a subscriber), but don't tell me this bullshit doesn't run both ways.

Show me all these analyzed data and videos of totally unsolicited beatings? 

Sure, here's just one prominent case: https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/beaten-tased-and-arrested-jaywalking-while-black

And I certainly won't say that bullshit doesn't run both ways -- there are bad people out there.  That's, umm, why we have laws and cops.

Criminals -- people who by definition behave badly.  They are why we have cops.

Cops -- people who by definition should uphold the law.  We shouldn't need cops for the cops.

Also, cops work for me -- they are literally my agents, doing a job I engaged them to do.  The criminals don't work for me.  They don't answer to me.

So, you know, a HUGE difference.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I have no use in further engagement with you.

[Brisketexan 104618]

3 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

The thing that jumped out at me from reading this (h/t badteammate; https://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/) is that this issue is an economic issue. 

We need to be pragmatic and realistic-- people are not going to have a change of heart or minds, probably-- so the best approach is going to have to be a leveling of the playing field. And not leveling by taking away from what people already have and so that it feels punitive and sows a feeling of being cheated or taken advantage of or robbed, but one where you level the other side up. You bring them up to the level and the only way to do that is necessarily reparations.

We have to get over the idea that reparations is a bad word and once and for all balance the social and racial checkbook. This is also good because the excuses and victimhood mentality that can be a disease as well, can be eroded over time (not saying there aren't justified reasons today, but to continue on as a victim in perpetuity, is what I'm saying should be mitigated for).

This isn't wrong.  I mean, there's some significant problems/pushback with the idea of individualized reparations.  But if you look at it in terms of "deferred maintenance" -- there are segments of our society (and they are not entirely race-based) that we have neglected the shit out of.  So, it would benefit all of us greatly if we invested in those neglected/deferred maintenance items.  It involves education, and yes, proper policing, and infrastructure investments, and a shitload of other things.

It's kind of like the old "McDonald's theory of peace" -- remember that from back in the day?  For a long time, no two countries that had a McDonald's in them had gone to war against each other.  The hypothesis was that having a McDonald's was a benchmark of a certain level of economic success, and once a country has that level of success, they are much less likely to risk their prosperity with a war.  They are much more likely to try to play the greater economic game and advance their economic standing.  I think the same sort of thing stands for people -- the most effective way to get people not to act like they have nothing to lose is to give them something to lose.  Put them in a position where they don't want to risk what they have by engaging in risky/criminal/violent behavior.

In terms of the "racial justice" aspect of this, that may be the most important long-term approach.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 hour ago, hobbes2702 said:

How is that your interpretation of what was written?

Maybe I need to go back and re read it. I was working on a drawing at the time, and maybe not giving it full attention.

[fattyflattie 4636]

7 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

And not leveling by taking away from what people already have and so that it feels punitive and sows a feeling of being cheated or taken advantage of or robbed,

Ok. 

So how do we pay for this?

8 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

but one where you level the other side up. You bring them up to the level and the only way to do that is necessarily reparations.

 

[Celery Man 20886]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Maybe I need to go back and re read it. I was working on a drawing at the time, and maybe not giving it full attention.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Maybe I need to go back and re read it. I was working on a drawing at the time, and maybe not giving it full attention.

Nice effort, though.

[bad_teammate 13132]

28 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

The thing that jumped out at me from reading this (h/t badteammate; https://www.gphistorical.org/mlk/mlkspeech/) is that this issue is an economic issue.

"Poverty is the parent of crime." - Aristotle
- Michael Scott

The material deprivation of black America is stark. There are obviously important variables ALSO in play, but we can't solve racism... but we CAN solve material deprivation.

[Brisketexan 104618]

2 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

You and your ilk will not be swayed that your approach doesn't work despite decades of evidence to help influence.

Because you and your ilk will always remain on the race issue platform, nothing will be done.

It won't.

So it's fucking pointless. All of this absolutely pointless.  Part of my spiritual system forces me know when items will not be meaningfully impacted, no matter my efforts. This thread and you, and my decades, DECADES of trying to educate people that WOD reform is the path of true solution goes unheard. 

So... Because all evidence tells me, you and your ilk will steadfastly continue this path, no matter what, despite we all know it will produce zero results I am left with only one choice. 

I must, for my own spiritual well being, let it go.

I may at some point reexamine if my words and attempts at education will help, but for now, I can no longer care because it doesn't and won't. You and your ilk will forcefully continue down your unproductive and destructive path. 

See you when the world starts burning.

Good bye and good luck.

I get it.  Saying that an issue disproportionately impacts black people so fucking pisses off a huge segment of our population that all they can do is blindly and angrily resist any work to resolve that issue.  The only way to accomplish anything is to tell them "wait...it's not about black people at all....it's about YOU!  Yeah...that's the ticket!"  We can only do what's good for us all -- like eating vegetables -- by sneaking the veggies in as fried nuggets -- "don't you want some more nuggets, little Johnny?"

Which gives us some nutrition and fiber today, which is good.....but johnny never fucking learns to eat anything healthy that way.  The only way to keep us healthy is to keep lying, over and over, to trick the American people into doing the right thing.

That's a shitty dilemma for us to be in - if we want to get something positive done, we have to conceal a large part of the truth about the problem.  If we want to solve the bigger issue of social acknowledgement of the full scope of the problem, we're fucked.

So, you and I aren't that different -- we are equally discouraged that any good will come.  We are hard-wired to work against it.

[Rougarou 594]

35 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Ok. 

So how do we pay for this?

 

But, you agree? The first step is to confirm the buy-in here. Call it a purpose/benefit check. 

You agree that we need to balance the social/racial checkbook of America based upon some egregious things in the past that we are sorry for and will not do ever again to a race of people?

[Brisketexan 104618]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

But, you agree? The first step is to confirm the buy-in here. Call it a purpose/benefit check. 

You agree that we need to balance the social/racial checkbook of America based upon some egregious things in the past that we are sorry for and will not do ever again to a race of people?

We have managed to find the money for creating a massive prison industrial complex, to finance a multi-trillion dollar "war on drugs" that hasn't had any measurable effect, to bail out business and industries the benefit the wealthiest, to pave and repave the streets in the "nice" neighborhoods while spending nothing on the streets in the "not nice" neighborhoods, on creating the worlds largest and most expensive military by several orders of magnitude and have used it mostly to protect the interests of our richest industrialists, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Our problem isn't lack of money.  It's allocation.

Oh, and to the extent that it IS lack of money....I'm happy to see my taxes go up to repair our busted social infrastructure.  Some years, I forego the nice vacation because I've gotta take care of some serious deferred maintenance -- roof, AC, etc.  So be it.  That's what responsible people, and responsible societies, do.

[dcar00 14035]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

There were protests and even riots in the wake of Michael Brown's killing. dcar00's argument is somewhat ahistorical and counter-factual.

But to the extent that there is a disparity in level of activity...

The governmental response was not overtly hostile to the people who were demonstrating, so the government in that regard did a more effective job of ensuring domestic tranquility.

Throw the angry mob a sop and some pleasing words to give them an excuse to calm down, vaguely address their larger concerns, keep the machine humming along.
OR
Deliberately provoke the angry mob and be surprised when they act worse.

This was actually done...

[Rougarou 594]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

We have managed to find the money for creating a massive prison industrial complex, to finance a multi-trillion dollar "war on drugs" that hasn't had any measurable effect, to bail out business and industries the benefit the wealthiest, to pave and repave the streets in the "nice" neighborhoods while spending nothing on the streets in the "not nice" neighborhoods, on creating the worlds largest and most expensive military by several orders of magnitude and have used it mostly to protect the interests of our richest industrialists, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Our problem isn't lack of money.  It's allocation.

Oh, and to the extent that it IS lack of money....I'm happy to see my taxes go up to repair our busted social infrastructure.  Some years, I forego the nice vacation because I've gotta take care of some serious deferred maintenance -- roof, AC, etc.  So be it.  That's what responsible people, and responsible societies, do.

You didn't strike me as someone who was solidly middle class. Now that I know you aren't very wealthy, a lot of your posting makes more sense and I can appreciate you more/better. Thanks for sharing. Shoot me a PM if you need some warm socks this winter lol.

[Brisketexan 104618]

5 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

You didn't strike me as someone who was solidly middle class. Now that I know you aren't very wealthy, a lot of your posting makes more sense and I can appreciate you more/better. Thanks for sharing. Shoot me a PM if you need some warm socks this winter lol.

Things are better for us than they were a few years ago, thanks to my expected career arc, but yeah, that was our reality not very long ago in terms of family budget (and now, with one in college and another headed there shortly, it may be again for a while).  If you saw the car I drive....you'd understand.  And I won't be getting a new one for several years.  But I'd still be happier paying more in taxes if they were actually used for the common good.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Saying that an issue disproportionately impacts black people so fucking pisses off a huge segment of our population that all they can do is blindly and angrily resist any work to resolve that issue. 

[Brisketexan 104618]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Yes.  That's why black people are incarcerated at a 6:1 ratio of white people.  Black people are just inherently more criminal (glad you're finally starting to be honest with us, though).  OR....other shit could be at work.  

And that doesn't even touch on all the times that cops pull over/pull aside black people who aren't breaking the law at all -- just sitting in a hotel lobby waiting on a friend, driving through their own neighborhood, etc.

You are free to live in a world that ignores those things -- I can't stop you.  Just don't call that world "reality," because it ain't.

[Js1 85110]

1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Lulz. Being downvoted on twitter is now "viciously demonized". What a world...

Wow you cannot really be this dumb. It’s an act, right?

[52-80 19093]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Sigh.  Sure.  That's all that happened.

The overarching effect is that they weren't just ignored.  They were actively demonized and attacked for it.  And yes, there was shit like threats on Kap's life.  If you don't even acknowledge that the attacks on the NFL players kneeling during the anthem were pervasive, enraged, and went to the highest level of the entire country, I have no use in further engagement with you.  You are being disingenuous and dishonest.

Kaep was ridiculed because he was an untalented attention whore.  People have a distaste for virtue signalling.  Most of them give as much shit about his skin color as they do the national anthem itself.  (I'm in the Carlin camp, I don't see what wearing a hat has to do with it). 

 

Im not sure sports fan are the most balanced folks on which to make racial-social commentaries.  Sports fans make threats on athletes lives all the time.  I'm pretty they shot and stabbed white soccer players for missing kicks.  Hell, the sports fan are still arguing over Vince Young and he hasn't played in about a decade.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

Just now, Js1 said:

Wow you cannot really be this dumb. It’s an act, right?

[Brisketexan 104618]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

Kaep was ridiculed because he was an untalented attention whore.  People have a distaste for virtue signalling.  Most of them give as much shit about his skin color as they do the national anthem itself.  (I'm in the Carlin camp, I don't see what wearing a hat has to do with it). 

 

Im not sure sports fan are the most balanced folks on which to make racial-social commentaries.  Sports fans make threats on athletes lives all the time.  I'm pretty they shot and stabbed white soccer players for missing kicks.  Hell, the sports fan are still arguing over Vince Young and he hasn't played in about a decade.

How about the President of the United States?  He did the same shit as the knuckle-dragging "sportsfans" you are excusing.