Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Celery Man 21076]

Never been on one. Maybe you can describe what you saw on yours that makes you think whatever it is that you are thinking.

[Brisketexan 106618]

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

As for people, there is a measure of responsibility as well.  Not to fight and resist.  We know most LEs are not sufficiently trained, so when there is a physical altercation, they go to the spray, the taser, and then the gun, often very, very quickly.  You fight back with a cop.  Try and take their gun, pull a weapon.....it's going to go south and you damn well know it.  

Accountability?  Easy - the unions protect bad cops.  Start there.  Further, their badge #'s should be national, like a tax ID# - create a database so bad cops can't bounce around from precinct to precinct.  Done.

I'm not opposed to more training, both in de-escalation and in how to handle confrontations without them turning deadly.  But the ultimate problem is the same as with the next bit of bolded text...

CULTURE.  The problem is CULTURE.  Do unions provide legal protection for cops, with mechanisms that prevent removal etc. of bad cops?  Yep, and those contract provisions need to be flat-out voided as against public policy.  But the problem starts a lot lower down than the union contract.

The problem starts when, after, say, 2 weeks of solid training in de-escalation, humanizing the mentally ill, etc......the cops go out and get a drink, the old guard rants about "wasting our time learning this pussy-ass shit, the only thing those fuckers understand is a mag-light to the skull," and all of that training is undone.  Peer pressure can undo 2 weeks of training in 5 minutes.  And when that senior cop beats the fuck out of someone for mouthing off?  It's not the union that stays silent and watches him do it -- it's his fellow cop.  He doesn't say a thing.  And when the violent cop submits his report of how the guy mouthing off was resisting, and went for a knife or something, the other cops on scene get in line and say "yep, that's what happened."  The union doesn't do that, the culture does.

The culture of modern American policing is fucking toxic.  Jesus, read up on the shit that goes down in the LA county sheriff's department.....it's a goddamned gang.  You can send those guys to all the training you like....they're still going to be what they are.

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

Never been on one. Maybe you can describe what you saw on yours that makes you think whatever it is that you are thinking.

Maybe you should go on a few and gain some perspective on a topic you want to opine on?

[Celery Man 21076]

I have no interest, and I absolutely disagree with the argument that you seem to be making that only people who go on ride alongs should participate in discussions about how we use police in our society. What do you think the negative impacts would be if cops were less armed and more diverse in their response? What did you see on your ride alongs, and how did it inform your opinion?

Edited September 16, 2020 by Celery Man

[BabaYaga 15532]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm not opposed to more training, both in de-escalation and in how to handle confrontations without them turning deadly.  But the ultimate problem is the same as with the next bit of bolded text...

CULTURE.  The problem is CULTURE.  Do unions provide legal protection for cops, with mechanisms that prevent removal etc. of bad cops?  Yep, and those contract provisions need to be flat-out voided as against public policy.  But the problem starts a lot lower down than the union contract.

The problem starts when, after, say, 2 weeks of solid training in de-escalation, humanizing the mentally ill, etc......the cops go out and get a drink, the old guard rants about "wasting our time learning this pussy-ass shit, the only thing those fuckers understand is a mag-light to the skull," and all of that training is undone.  Peer pressure can undo 2 weeks of training in 5 minutes.  And when that senior cop beats the fuck out of someone for mouthing off?  It's not the union that stays silent and watches him do it -- it's his fellow cop.  He doesn't say a thing.  And when the violent cop submits his report of how the guy mouthing off was resisting, and went for a knife or something, the other cops on scene get in line and say "yep, that's what happened."  The union doesn't do that, the culture does.

The culture of modern American policing is fucking toxic.  Jesus, read up on the shit that goes down in the LA county sheriff's department.....it's a goddamned gang.  You can send those guys to all the training you like....they're still going to be what they are.

You change culture by changing the mechanism and protections that facilitate that culture

[bad_teammate 13479]

Ride-along programs are PR for police departments. The only thing you're learning there are which officers they trust the most to make the department look good.

[BabaYaga 15532]

Just now, Celery Man said:

I have not interest, and I absolutely disagree with the argument that you seem to be making that only people who go on ride alongs should participate in discussions about how we use police in our society. What do you think the negative impacts would be if cops were less armed and more diverse in their response? What did you see on your ride alongs, and how did it inform your opinion?

That is not my point.  My point is there is no description of verbiage that will translate to real world experiences.  

Real world?  OK.  Do a ride along, buck up, and do it and find out why, on traffic stops, the officers always place  their thumb against the rear panel of every car that they stop.

[Hate 20232]

Everyone should have to just watch a view episodes of Cops.

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Ride-along programs are PR for police departments. The only thing you're learning there are which officers they trust the most to make the department look good.

How many have you been on?

[Brisketexan 106618]

10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You change culture by changing the mechanism and protections that facilitate that culture

Yes and no.  You have to do both.

Police contracts should not protect bad actors, period.  Qualified immunity either should not exist or should be sharply curtailed as a legal doctrine.

But before either of those things had fully developed, we still had shitty cops, doing really shitty things, protected by their code of omerta.  You don't need a union contract to have a culture of "back your brother officer, no matter what."  That culture pre-dated modern union contracts and their limits on officer discipline.

We have to do both.  And right now, the culture of police and the political culture that backs them (Americans LOVE "law and order" and "tough on crime," and the cops LOVE to play that tune for them) is completely resistant to change to either.  Yeah, folks talk about "vote out your leadership that has allowed this to happen," without acknowledging the electoral fact that the majority of voters will just vote in more, and even harsher, "tough on crime" leadership.  You want to vote out a city council member who hasn't done enough to reform policing?  Cool....you're going to end up replacing him with someone who wants to double the police budget and give every cop in the field a mounted .50 cal on top of his squad car (hyperbole for effect, of course - the point is, the replacement is going to want more and tougher policing, not less and smarter policing).

The problem of the culture of law enforcement begins where it always has -- with us, with "we the people."  We have had this sort of law enforcement culture because we've demanded it, and rewarded it.  A politician promises he'll "back the blue," "these are our heroes," "we need to give them all the tools they want to get home safely," and "let's crack down on all the bad guys!", and he wins elections.  He wins LOTS of elections - shit, I've got a shitload of ads just like that running on my TV right now, for candidates who have won political office and are very likely to be re-elected, not in spite of but BECAUSE OF that messaging.  The people have spoken.  Until we collectively (as in, a voting majority) say something different, we're going to keep getting what we ask for and vote for.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Celery Man 21076]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

That is not my point.  My point is there is no description of verbiage that will translate to real world experiences.  

Real world?  OK.  Do a ride along, buck up, and do it and find out why, on traffic stops, the officers always place  their thumb against the rear panel of every car that they stop.

It is the literal purpose of words to convey these things. Please try it - you had a thought, can you use your words to describe what the thought was? I would be interested to hear from you about how your experiences on ride alongs led you to form these thoughts.

 

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

It is the literal purpose of words to convey these things. Please try it - you had a thought, can you use your words to describe what the thought was? I would be interested to hear from you about how your experiences on ride alongs led you to form these thoughts.

 

Quit being a condescending twat.  Again, why do you think the officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?  

[bad_teammate 13479]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

How many have you been on?

2, both as a result of charity raffles. Both times I was with extremely professional and cool HPD officers who dealt with difficult situations extremely well. I've also done class walkthroughs at a few schools where the teachers were absolutely stellar. Professionally, visiting sites has been a job of mine for a million years at this point. As soon as you see the supervisor or the citizen, things change.

Saying it's "public relations" isn't an insult, it's just the truth. They don't pull the names out of a jar. When a department offers ride-along programs officers are chosen for the job and they are coached on what to do. That's not bad, it's just how it is. Same for school walkthroughs.

All you are going to actually learn on a ride-along is how the best that department has to offer handles a normal day while being watched by an outsider. That's the entire point of ride-along programs.

Look at how the programs are explained by cops themselves.

NPYD

SJPD

The main purpose of the Ride-Along Program is to improve police and public relations by familiarizing participants with the complex and unpredictable nature of police work. It can also be a great introduction to daily life on the police force.

 

 

[Celery Man 21076]

I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

[bad_teammate 13479]

4 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

In case they are abducted/incapacitated, there's physical evidence on the car.

Does it actually happen regularly? No. But they are scared of it.

I have no idea what point Baba is trying to make, and he probably doesn't either.

And honestly it sounds like a stupid urban legend that wouldn't work well.

Edited September 16, 2020 by bad_teammate

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

[bad_teammate 13479]

lol nailed it

[bad_teammate 13479]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

[Serak The Preparer 3482]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

[BabaYaga 15532]

2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

It's been stated repeatedly 

Quote

Every patrol is 1 white shirt with 1 gray shirt. Both have radios ready to call in the gun guys.

Who do you think performs traffic stops?  Patrol officers.  

Edited September 16, 2020 by BabaYaga

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

JFC, those are planned calls.  Not 911 distress calls.  

[Brisketexan 106618]

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

This.  Add just social workers in general, who go out to potentially dangerous homes all the time.

And also....know any ER nurses? Violent, beligerent and dangerous patients are an "every single night" sort of thing for many of them.

Some jobs carry an element of danger.  I'll note that when it comes to cops, the most dangerous part of their job is when they are driving TO the call, not once they are already there.  If they can't handle the element of danger without erring on the side of abusing citizens, then cool -- get another job.

I want everyone to come out ok.  But if the police think that the way to do that is to have a hair trigger and go apeshit on people for not sufficiently respecting their authoritah, fuck 'em.  They aren't fit for the job.

If a Marine on patrol in Afghanistan freaks out because a villager isn't listening to his instructions, and starts beating on him, he gets a court-martial, and fast.  And his fellow Marine's are actually better at reporting the event than brother cops are.  We hold our military to a higher standard than we hold our cops to.  And the military is LITERALLY IN A COMBAT ZONE.  That's fucked up.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Brisketexan

[DonkeyCigars 143]

5 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

Haha please stop, my sides hurt.

[bad_teammate 13479]

2 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

Wait - are you under the impression that even the most ardent "defund the police" people are arguing that social workers should be performing traffic stops?

Absolutely! Why not?

<50 cops are killed per year in felonious acts (meaning someone tried to kill them on purpose). There are ~20M traffic stops per year.

The most dangerous thing about a traffic stop is being in traffic.

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

JFC, those are planned calls.  Not 911 distress calls.  

Yes, and how many officers are killed every year by wife-abusers who just got the cops called on them?

*cue Jeopardy music*

[Celery Man 21076]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

To create a physical record of their presence on the car for identification purposes in the event they are killed.  Think about that for a second.  Dozens of stops a day, hundreds a week, thousands a month.  Each with the level of apprehension that I need a physical identification marker in the event of any technological malfunctions that I was here in case I die.  

The point is most officers are under a tremendous amount of stress, and traffic stops are among the worst in terms of apprehension.  Felons with warrants.  Contraband.  Fugitives.  Hostages.  All this factors in.  You want to replace these officers with unarmed social workers?  For many soccer-moms scared to get a ticket, sure.  For gang members, felons, and the rest, this is a recipe for an unmitigated disaster.  It's not a secret traffic stops and domestic violence calls are THE MOST dangerous calls LE's have to make....and you want to send in social workers into a scenario you know nothing about?  Utter insanity....

Thus far in this thread of the conversation, I haven't offered any opinion or made any arguments at all, except for meta arguments about putting thoughts into words.

I am not surprised at the thumb thing. I certainly believe that police are frequently scared for their lives, and I imagine that is even worse now. I think that sometimes it is warranted, often it is not. I don't have a firm stance on how we *should* do policing, and that includes not having a hard line opinion on if cops executing traffic stops should have guns, or what type of cops those cops would be if we did change the composition of our police departments. I do think that right now, it is fairly broken, and I think that the argument that we could get better outcomes by not having a gun toting tribal tatted one size fits all band aid for all social problems makes a ton of sense. I also don't think that the actual danger of policing is in line with the level of fear that cops have as a baseline, but you would be correct to assess that that is more based on statistics than my own experiences in ride alongs.

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Absolutely! Why not?

<50 cops are killed per year in felonious acts (meaning someone tried to kill them on purpose). There are ~20M traffic stops per year.

The most dangerous thing about a traffic stop is being in traffic.

Yes, and how many officers are killed every year by wife-abusers who just got the cops called on them?

*cue Jeopardy music*

And....we're done here......

[bad_teammate 13479]

20,000,000 traffic stops per year

probably 20 cops killed by people on purpose during traffic stops per year

Literally one in a million.

 

I HAVE TO GET HOME TO MY FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

I also don't think that the actual danger of policing is in line with the level of fear that cops have as a baseline, but you would be correct to assess that that is more based on statistics than my own experiences in ride alongs.

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

20,000,000 traffic stops per year

probably 20 cops killed by people on purpose during traffic stops per year

Literally one in a million.

 

I HAVE TO GET HOME TO MY FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

300 million LE interactions each year

14 unarmed people shot 

Literally less than one in a million

Keep going?

[Celery Man 21076]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

If a civilian has an interaction with a cop, fears for his life, and shoots the cop, are you cool with the civilian being placed on administrative leave and then the taxpayers cut the PD a check?

Edited September 16, 2020 by Celery Man

[bad_teammate 13479]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

You could make the exact same argument for police shootings of civilians.  

Yes, you could, so what does it tell you that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of non-police citizens (cops are civilians, too) don't carry guns and act like their every step is towards a violent death?

lol

[BabaYaga 15532]

Just now, Celery Man said:

If a civilian shoots has an interaction with a cop, fears for his life, and shoots the cop, are you cool with the civilian being placed on administrative leave and then the taxpayers cut the PD a check?

I already said to gut the unions and contracts protecting bad cops and eliminate their ability to precinct hop

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, you could, so what does it tell you that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of non-police citizens (cops are civilians, too) don't carry guns and act like their every step is towards a violent death?

lol

Literally less than a million....

lol

[Celery Man 21076]

That would be a decent start.

BTW, I don't carry a gun with me in case I get stopped by a cop.

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

52 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

How long ago was your last ride-along with your local precinct patrolmen?

Front seat or back seat? Asking for a friend...

[BabaYaga 15532]

Just now, Celery Man said:

That would be a decent start.

BTW, I don't carry a gun with me in case I get stopped by a cop.

Neither do I or know anyone that does.  My guess is you will be carrying much more as more and more communities see a rise in crime as we are seeing in MN, NY, CA, Portland, Etc.  

[bad_teammate 13479]

*me, pressing my thumb into the taillight of a Dodge Caravan driven by a woman and kids who were going 48 in a 40*

"Father into your hands, I commit my spirit."

[Brisketexan 106618]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

I already said to gut the unions and contracts protecting bad cops and eliminate their ability to precinct hop

Well, you are pointing out "legitimate fear," presumably as an excuse/justification/explanation for violent police action.

I've noted this before -- the police need to be REAL careful about how they establish the standard for "I was reasonably in fear for my life and safety" by a TRAINED COP,  because they're working on setting that bar so damned low that any citizen, who has NOT received the "years of training and experience as a law enforcement officer" (that's literally the statement on damned near every police report), is "reasonably in fear for his life and safety" when he is approached by an aggressive, armed person.....who happens to be a cop with his hand on his firearm.

Anyone can pull a gun on anyone, anywhere, any time.  Shit, you can just be shopping at Wal-Mart and a dude hunting mexicans can come strolling in.  The fact that anyone, at any time, can present a threat, should not justify treating everyone, all the time, as a deadly threat, and putting the burden of proof on them in every interaction to convince you NOT to use force against them.  That's bassackwards.

[BabaYaga 15532]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

"reasonably in fear for his life and safety"

What is this?  The fourth fucking time?  Gut the provisional contracts and mechanisms that protect and facilitate bad actors.  

[Celery Man 21076]

 

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Neither do I or know anyone that does.  My guess is you will be carrying much more as more and more communities see a rise in crime as we are seeing in MN, NY, CA, Portland, Etc.  

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

[BabaYaga 15532]

Just now, Celery Man said:

 

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

You misrepresent the majority of CHL carriers.  My impression is intentionally.  Every carrier I know and have trained with (hundreds) view their carry item and a shield, not a sword.  Nor is it situational.  

But you do you.

[Brisketexan 106618]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

What is this?  The fourth fucking time?  Gut the provisional contracts and mechanisms that protect and facilitate bad actors.  

Not going to acknowledge the entire underlying culture of PDs?  Just going to assume that approach was born when modern union contract terms on officer discipline came around?  Cool.  That will be super-effective.

You can change the contract terms all you want -- when every fellow officer lies about the event, so it turns out not to BE an event worthy of discipline, none of that shit matters.

[Celery Man 21076]

 

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

You misrepresent the majority of CHL carriers.  My impression is intentionally.  Every carrier I know and have trained with (hundreds) view their carry item and a shield, not a sword.  Nor is it situational.  

But you do you.

I think you were saying that, because of a rise in crime, I will begin to carry a gun with me frequently. I don't think that that is likely to happen.

 

Let me take a step back. I think that what you are saying is, you think that police need guns. Do you think that police need guns all of the time? Or a different question - do you think that there are any things that we have police doing now where it would be better if we had someone different than police doing that thing?

[BabaYaga 15532]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not going to acknowledge the entire underlying culture of PDs?  Just going to assume that approach was born when modern union contract terms on officer discipline came around?  Cool.  That will be super-effective.

You can change the contract terms all you want -- when every fellow officer lies about the event, so it turns out not to BE an event worthy of discipline, none of that shit matters.

There is no magic wand of culture change?  Across thousands of precincts and hundreds of thousands of officers in a staggering number of different locales.  I'm addressing a tangible items that can and will immediately facilitate real change.  You're just pissing up your own leg and complaining about how wet you are.  

[Brisketexan 106618]

7 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

There is no magic wand of culture change?  Across thousands of precincts and hundreds of thousands of officers in a staggering number of different locales.  I'm addressing a tangible items that can and will immediately facilitate real change.  You're just pissing up your own leg and complaining about how wet you are.  

No.....I'm not.  I'm doing what a smart problem-solver should do: look for root causes.

The root cause of lawless, overbearing PDs is a public that demands and rewards that behavior.  The root cause is US.  We can change contracts, we can have training, all that....but if the majority of Americans is going to insist on tough cops who don't take any shit from anyone and are tough on crime, and demand that platform from their elected officials (and that still seems to be the case), we aren't going to fix shit.  The culture will stay the same, the cops will still cover for each other, and no discipline will change.

The HARD work is getting Americans to change their minds, over time.  The needle is moving....but not much, and the pushback is INCREDIBLY strong.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Brisketexan

[JBJ 3780]

57 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Completely unarmed, unaccompanied women make social service calls all the damned time, often in the middle of the night.

Do you know any CPS workers?

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

Edited September 16, 2020 by JBJ

[workswithseed 2201]

49 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

 

I don't foresee a future where I'm too scared to go into Minneapolis or Portland without a gat.

Right now with all the boards and spray paint on the buildings, and smoke in the air from the fires. You could ride around with a gat mad max style, and everyone would understand.

[huge 3825]

20 minutes ago, JBJ said:

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

[bad_teammate 13479]

46 minutes ago, JBJ said:

CPS doesn't do that.  They call local police to do a wellness check.  They aren't even present when the police pull kids out of school.

It depends on what kind of check or call you're talking about, I guess. But let's say theoretically I know someone very well who actually does the exact thing I'm talking about as her job, including recently driving at 10:30PM to some strangers' house all by herself because a kid was brought into a hospital in something that looked like pill-chasing scheme. Hospital calls her office, she goes and checks on it without so much as pepper spray in her purse. And hundreds of similar cases over decades of service.

Are there cases where they call cops in? Absolutely. But CPS workers will absolutely, 100%, go unattended into a situation they don't really know much about, and I'm pretty sure they don't press their thumb onto the door sill every time before they knock.

Again, ~50 cops per year die due to felonious acts. That's really the main point here. We don't live in an active warzone or in a thriller where razor-wielding gangs are roving the streets murdering people.

That's 50 too many. 0 cops should die. I don't want any of them to get hurt or die, but we need to tone down the hysteria.

[BabaYaga 15532]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Again, ~50 cops per year die due to felonious acts. That's really the main point here. We don't live in an active warzone or in a thriller where razor-wielding gangs are roving the streets murdering people.

Is 50 more than 14?