Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]

[Thatguy 9293]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

You are speaking to people incapable of hearing you. I wouldn't waste much more time with them.

True. I usually go for a bit and then bow out for months before returning to see nothing has changed. lol That's why my post count is only 855.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Thatguy

[Brisketexan 106619]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

True. I usually go for a bit and then bow out for months before returning to see nothing has changed. lol That's why my post count is only 855.

Is there a reddit thread, or some other aggregation, where black men tell the "okay, fuckers, let me tell you about all the times cops utterly fucked me over" stories?  People around here hear an anecdote or two, and say "sure, it happens," but they just don't believe that it happens regularly and systematically....and one of the reasons they don't is because there is no rigorous statistical analysis.  How in the fuck would we even get that?  Wouldn't we depend on....the very PDs that are the bad actors, to VOLUNTARILY compile and report all the times they yanked black dudes out of their cars for no reason?  Come on.

[52-80 19379]

6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  He wouldn't make it out of the room. I laugh at all these guys filtering out all violent police encounters except shooting deaths. Like getting your ass kicked during a traffic stop doesn't count.

  When I was a senior in high school I was forced off the road by an off duty cop on the way to Galveston. He was driving an unmarked car with his wife and 3 fishing poles in the back. The only way we knew he was a cop is because he was flashing his badge while swerving his car at us and screaming to pull over. We did. He screams at us to get out of the car(3 of us), tosses us face down on the hood, cuffs us, and makes us sit on the guardrail on the side of the freeway while he tosses all our shit out of the car while searching it. He returns angry that he didn't find anything and lets us go. We never knew why he pulled us over, we just sat there dumbfounded and embarrassed.

  Another time 4 of us were headed to the movies. I lived in an apartment so my friend's car was parallel parked on the side street. As we approached the car the police slowly creeped by heading the opposite direction our car was pointed, looking at us the whole time, and stopped at the stop sign and just sat there. As soon as we pulled off they did a U turn and flipped the lights on. A cop came up on each side. My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there. He had it in his lap. I guess his hand moved because the next thing I know guns came flying out screaming get your hands away from the hat. I thought we were dead. We got dragged out off the car, face down on the pavement and cuffed. When they pulled me up I had pebbles stuck to my cheek from the force of his knee on my neck forcing my face into the ground. I was pretty pissed, but I knew if I reacted I was going to jail with the usual resisting charge. They had us there for a long ass time. Neighbors out wondering what was going on. None of us had anything on us or had any legal issues so they let us go. Of course we missed our movie.

  But if you ask these guys that story(and a whole host of other stories I have)doesn't count. According to them the police treat everyone like this. Inner city Black People have anxiety about police for a reason, and it damn sure isn't fabricated.

 

If you had ALL these clear cut cases of black and white, wanton abuses -- and im not claiming they dont exist -- why would you champion all the grayscale, edge cases with known criminals engaging in violent act, and then cry bloody murder?  

Seems like a terrific way to delegitimize your campaign.

[bad_teammate 13479]

42 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there.

What?

[Brisketexan 106619]

23 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

 

If you had ALL these clear cut cases of black and white, wanton abuses -- and im not claiming they dont exist -- why would you champion all the grayscale, edge cases with known criminals engaging in violent act, and then cry bloody murder?  

Seems like a terrific way to delegitimize your campaign.

People have championed a shitload of cases that aren't grayscale.....and it doesn't matter, people try to turn them into grayscale.  Tamir Rice didn't matter, and hey, that kid should have dropped the toy gun in .00001 seconds.  Ahmaud Arbery won't matter....and anyway, he was probably illegally casing houses under construction.  There's always something, some way to turn it back on the victim.  Shit, Botham Jean was in his own goddamned apartment, playing video games....but folks made sure to tell us about his weed.  Nevermind the numerous videos of things like guys jaywalking getting bodyslammed.  And nevermind that for most of the more "mundane" shit (just pulling over a black guy and hassling the shit out of him), there's no video.  That's kind of the point.  It's death by a thousand cuts.  Not all of them are as attention-grabbing as watching someone's last breaths.  And in the end, it doesn't matter.....it's always "gray" -- there's always SOMETHING the black guy could have done better.  Thatguy is right -- the bar for conduct of black men is so damned high that it might as well be on the moon.  

[Thatguy 9293]

People have championed a shitload of cases that aren't grayscale.....and it doesn't matter, people try to turn them into grayscale.  Tamir Rice didn't matter, and hey, that kid should have dropped the toy gun in .00001 seconds.  Ahmaud Arbery won't matter....and anyway, he was probably illegally casing houses under construction.  There's always something, some way to turn it back on the victim.  Shit, Botham Jean was in his own goddamned apartment, playing video games....but folks made sure to tell us about his weed.  Nevermind the numerous videos of things like guys jaywalking getting bodyslammed.  And nevermind that for most of the more "mundane" shit (just pulling over a black guy and hassling the shit out of him), there's no video.  That's kind of the point.  It's death by a thousand cuts.  Not all of them are as attention-grabbing as watching someone's last breaths.  And in the end, it doesn't matter.....it's always "gray" -- there's always SOMETHING the black guy could have done better.  Thatguy is right -- the bar for conduct of black men is so damned high that it might as well be on the moon.  

It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos, and all the information readily available. We've been telling them for decades and they still ignore it. I mean, that dude just got beaten unconscious by police for being black while riding in the back of a Lyft. Seriously, what is it gonna take.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Brisketexan 106619]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos, and all the information readily available. We've been telling them for decades and they still ignore it. I mean, that dude just got beaten unconscious by police for being black while riding in the back of a Lyft. Seriously, what is it gonna take.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

There's always some way to turn it around on the black guy.  Always.  And even if you cite 1,000 anecdotes (which is almost all we have, because PDs are understandably reluctant to reveal their improper actions), it's "well, nobody's perfect, you can't prove it's systemic." 

If anyone is interested in some of the better analyses and recounting of the issue, here are some starters and examples (some of these pieces examine additional related issues, but all contain analysis of the frequency and nature of interactions between cops and black people):

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profiling-our-nations-highways

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/03/10-things-we-know-about-race-and-policing-in-the-u-s/

https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/press-release/poll-7-in-10-black-americans-say-they-have-experienced-incidents-of-discrimination-or-police-mistreatment-in-lifetime-including-nearly-half-who-felt-lives-were-in-danger/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/for-black-police-discrimination-abounds-complicating-reform-efforts-11592299800

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

And I could post 100 more, 1000 more.  It's real.  We all know it's real.  And if any given interaction with police has even a low likelihood of "going bad".....but one ethnic group has 3X as many interactions with cops, then they are going to have something around 3X the chance of an encounter "gone bad."  One of the best ways to avoid having a cop fuck you up.....is to very, very rarely have an encounter with a cop.  It's really the best preventative measure.  But Thatguy.....he really didn't have a choice in the matter, time after time.  His story is not atypical -- it's commonplace.

 

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

15 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos

I don't believe anyone disputes that there are bad cops. Those bad cops should be fired/prosecuted. I think the "explanation"  lies in how you can extrapolate a small minority of bad cops into ACAB. 

[Newdoc 3508]

57 minutes ago, Foosters said:

You are speaking to people incapable of hearing you. I wouldn't waste much more time with them.

Look, you have a political and sided world view, Thatguy, Brisket, Onboard, etc. Nobody on here is “listening” to each other. The discourse well has been poisoned by each side’s flame throwers. Ad hominem attacks abound. Sadly, it’s a reflection of our time.

You may get someone to hear you but peaceful discourse means someone on one side of the issue is going to have to step towards the other and without a proverbial Molotov cocktail in their hand.

[workswithseed 2201]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

I would challenge you to go sit in a room with black people and tell them that because they are alive, they have not experienced police brutality or racism.

You'd be making assumptions on everyone, maybe there are a few who haven't, and some who have. Just because they hear it in the news doesn't they personally been pulled over for DWB, or even told something racist. It would probably be best to just ask them 14 out of 48,221,139 black people have been killed by cops. How do you feel about that? And go from there. Black people aren't a hive mind. There are black people who say to defund the police, and there are some who want about the same or more policing. 

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

You'd be making assumptions on everyone,

[Brisketexan 106619]

8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I don't believe anyone disputes that there are bad cops. Those bad cops should be fired/prosecuted. I think the "explanation"  lies in how you can extrapolate a small minority of bad cops into ACAB. 

The ACAB issue is an important one.  Because it isn't built on the foundation of how many cops do bad shit.  It rests on how many other cops let them get away with it.  And the results of the polling/analysis on that is troubling as hell: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf

Here's the relevant excerpt -- the 80 percent number sounds pretty good.....until you see what the numbers are in reality:

Quote

More than 80 percent of police surveyed reported that they do not accept the “code of silence” (i.e., keeping quiet in the face of misconduct by others) as an essential part of the mutual trust necessary to good policing (see exhibit 3). However, about one-quarter (24.9 percent) of the sample agreed or strongly agreed that whistle blowing is not worth it, more than two-thirds (67.4 percent) reported that police officers who report incidents of misconduct are likely to be given a “cold shoulder” by fellow officers, and a majority (52.4 percent) agreed or strongly agreed that it is not unusual for police officers to “turn a blind eye” to other officers’ improper conduct (exhibit 3). A surprising 6 in 10 (61 percent) indicated that police officers do not always report even serious criminal violations that involve the abuse of authority by fellow officers.9

That doesn't get us to "all" cops are bad.....but damn.....it's more than one or two here and there.  A lot more.  Cops themselves are admitting what we've been saying: the "code of silence" problem is widespread and systemic.

[Brisketexan 106619]

3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

It would probably be best to just ask them 14 out of 48,221,139 black people have been killed by cops.

And again.....why do you ignore all of the OTHER interactions with cops (oh, and the "14" number is a shitty one for you to use, and you know it -- that's just unarmed people shot by cops, not killed by other means, and certainly not beaten, assaulted, harassed for no good reason, etc.)?  I actually posted articles containing a lot of polling data on exactly your question, anyway....and guess what?  Consistently, across-the-board, black people report a materially higher rate of being fucked with by the cops.  Come on, man.  Stop.  We all know this is a real thing, and it's a real systemic problem.  Why in the fuck are people fighting so hard against acknowledging the simple and known facts that 1) any given black guy doing an innocuous activity like driving or hanging out in their own driveway, etc., is materially more likely to be hassled by the cops than a white guy doing the same thing, and 2) that's bad, and shouldn't happen?

[dcar00 14902]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

I would challenge you to go sit in a room with black people and tell them that because they are alive, they have not experienced police brutality or racism.

whatever, bullshit drive by strawman is par for the course for you.  where have i ever said black people haven't experienced racism or brutality, gtfo.  14 unarmed out of 330M is an outlier, so is whatever the number of white guys is.  they are even outliers out of millions of police/public interactions.  I've already said they should hire way more minority police officers and they should patrol neighborhoods equally.  I'm sure black people get pulled over by cops more.  Its not right and it should change.

the problem is that issue is being conflated with "there is a genocide going on with innocent unarmed black people being shot and killed by cops". 

 

[Brisketexan 106619]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

the problem is that issue is being conflated with "there is a genocide going on with innocent unarmed black people being shot and killed by cops". 

The other problem is using that strawman to artificially limit the problem.  If there's NOT an outright genocide by direct homicide of black people.....then black people need to STFU.

We are in a country where tens of thousands of people have marched and even taken over state capitol buildings while slinging around ARs, not over murders.....but over whether they can be forced to....wear masks.

I'm gonna say that the issues that black people are marching about are a shitload more important and much greater infringement on their lives and liberties, than whether they can be required to wear a mask.  It's whether they can be profiled everywhere they go, tossed to the ground because a cop feels like it, literally have a boot ground into their face -- we don't need to talk about a single cop murder to have that conversation.  So, yeah, I think black people are pretty justified in being pissed off and making themselves heard.

[workswithseed 2201]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And again.....why do you ignore all of the OTHER interactions with cops (oh, and the "14" number is a shitty one for you to use, and you know it -- that's just unarmed people shot by cops, not killed by other means, and certainly not beaten, assaulted, harassed for no good reason, etc.)?  I actually posted articles containing a lot of polling data on exactly your question, anyway....and guess what?  Consistently, across-the-board, black people report a materially higher rate of being fucked with by the cops.  Come on, man.  Stop.  We all know this is a real thing, and it's a real systemic problem.  Why in the fuck are people fighting so hard against acknowledging the simple and known facts that 1) any given black guy doing an innocuous activity like driving or hanging out in their own driveway, etc., is materially more likely to be hassled by the cops than a white guy doing the same thing, and 2) that's bad, and shouldn't happen?

Cause the discussion was about deaths. 

[dcar00 14902]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The other problem is using that strawman to artificially limit the problem.  If there's NOT an outright genocide by direct homicide of black people.....then black people need to STFU.

We are in a country where tens of thousands of people have marched and even taken over state capitol buildings while slinging around ARs, not over murders.....but over whether they can be forced to....wear masks.

I'm gonna say that the issues that black people are marching about are a shitload more important and much greater infringement on their lives and liberties, than whether they can be required to wear a mask.  It's whether they can be profiled everywhere they go, tossed to the ground because a cop feels like it, literally have a boot ground into their face -- we don't need to talk about a single cop murder to have that conversation.  So, yeah, I think black people are pretty justified in being pissed off and making themselves heard.

who is telling black people to shut the fuck up?  more strawmen.

[Foosters 18225]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

who is telling black people to shut the fuck up?  more strawmen.

Like 40% of the country?

[52-80 19379]

25 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Why in the fuck are people fighting so hard against acknowledging the simple and known facts that 1) any given black guy doing an innocuous activity like driving or hanging out in their own driveway, etc., is materially more likely to be hassled by the cops than a white guy doing the same thing, and 2) that's bad, and shouldn't happen?

Why it hard to acknowledge the simple and known fact that (1) the incremental chance of being hassled by cops for doing an innocuous activity, is materially lower than while doing a NOT innocuous activity (like, you know, harassing a women against whom you have a restraining order) and that (2) you taint your point by conflating your position

 

If you want to combat racial-based police brutality and unjust murder -- which i agree is ULTRA FUCKING BAD -- why not narrow your focus on CLEAR and UNJUST racial-based brutality and murder?

 

perfect example:  you mentioned Botham Jean.  he was shot because a fucking idiot of a woman stumbled into into the wrong apartment and got spooked.  she got indicted of murder, as she should.  case closed.  why would you use his example as The Plight of the Black Man?  because the opposing attorney smeared his background.  aren't YOU a lawyer?  isn't this what YOU would do if Botham was white as a milk?  come on now.

[dcar00 14902]

Just now, Foosters said:

Like 40% of the country?

bigger strawman, well done.  I'm sure bad Brad and the commie will be along soon to complain about politics in the no politics thread...

[Foosters 18225]

3 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

bigger strawman, well done.  I'm sure bad Brad and the commie will be along soon to complain about politics in the no politics thread...

Is it your position that America has been receptive to the complaints from people of color regarding police brutality? 

 

[Brisketexan 106619]

8 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Cause the discussion was about deaths. 

No, the discussion is prompted, like most discussions, by the worst of events.  Like watching a man have the life crushed out of him on video.  You don't get pissed off and throw down when someone does the same old shit that pisses you off.  You blow up when they go way too fucking far.   Crushing the life out of George Floyd was way too fucking far.  The murder of Ahmaud Arbery -- which the local cops were going to let go, and was committed by one of their pals, until the video came out -- was way too fucking far.  People get pissed, and that prompts the whole, larger conversation -- how cops treat black people.  And that larger issue has absolutely been something that the black activists and their allies have been talking about all summer.

[Foosters 18225]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

No, the discussion is prompted, like most discussions, by the worst of events.  Like watching a man have the life crushed out of him on video.  You don't get pissed off and throw down when someone does the same old shit that pisses you off.  You blow up when they go way too fucking far.   Crushing the life out of George Floyd was way too fucking far.  The murder of Ahmaud Arbery -- which the local cops were going to let go, and was committed by one of their pals, until the video came out -- was way too fucking far.  People get pissed, and that prompts the whole, larger conversation -- how cops treat black people.  And that larger issue has absolutely been something that the black activists and their allies have been talking about all summer.

This thread is 70 pages of one side trying to make it only about the deaths, while the other side tries to redirect to the larger picture.

Imagine a thread about the wildfires in the west where half the posters continued to downplay it because only dozens of died out of the 10s of millions that live in the region.

[workswithseed 2201]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No, the discussion is prompted, like most discussions, by the worst of events.  Like watching a man have the life crushed out of him on video.  You don't get pissed off and throw down when someone does the same old shit that pisses you off.  You blow up when they go way too fucking far.   Crushing the life out of George Floyd was way too fucking far.  The murder of Ahmaud Arbery -- which the local cops were going to let go, and was committed by one of their pals, until the video came out -- was way too fucking far.  People get pissed, and that prompts the whole, larger conversation -- how cops treat black people.  And that larger issue has absolutely been something that the black activists and their allies have been talking about all summer.

I get that, but I was directly answering about deaths, and added the question on how it made them feel with all the black people in this room I'd be in. I don't think that there isn't racism in some cops, but I also think that not all blacks feel racism as well. There is a reason that 80% of black people would like about the same or more cops, and that there are people in the street yelling about how we need to defund the police. 

[52-80 19379]

17 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Is it your position that America has been receptive to the complaints from people of color regarding police brutality? 

 

I'd say America is pretty outraged about Floyd, Garner, Oscar Grant, etc, and whatever the fuck causes NM Police to murder (white) James Boyd and a bunch of other people. 

40% of America probably isn't receptive to your suggestion that every incident is racially motivated; that police are inherent racists; and that those 40% are racist because you conveniently bucket them all as "people who dont agree with me are racist"

 

12 minutes ago, Foosters said:

This thread is 70 pages of one side trying to make it only about the deaths, while the other side tries to redirect to the larger picture.

Imagine a thread about the wildfires in the west where half the posters continued to downplay it because only dozens of died out of the 10s of millions that live in the region.

Imagine if 6 black people died and 6 white people died and claiming the Fire is racist because it didn't kill whites in proportionate numbers, not because that dozen of people ran towards the fire instead of away from it

Edited September 17, 2020 by 52-80

[dcar00 14902]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

This thread is 70 pages of one side trying to make it only about the deaths, while the other side tries to redirect to the larger picture.

Imagine a thread about the wildfires in the west where half the posters continued to downplay it because only dozens of died out of the 10s of millions that live in the region.

nope.  It wasmostly about the rioting(some anitfa some not) and protests around the killing and murdering of black men by cops everywhere/genocide and when people started showing the numbers one side started saying yeah but this is not just about killing innocent black men.

[Brisketexan 106619]

6 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I get that, but I was directly answering about deaths, and added the question on how it made them feel with all the black people in this room I'd be in. I don't think that there isn't racism in some cops, but I also think that not all blacks feel racism as well. There is a reason that 80% of black people would like about the same or more cops, and that there are people in the street yelling about how we need to defund the police. 

OF course not ALL of any group feels a certain way.  That's not much of a point.

Your 80% number is wrong -- the president used it the other day, but he was wrong -- that's not what the polling shows.

The solid majority of black people say that have faced police discrimination.  We all know it's true, too.  Come on.  You know that it's true.  Are you really arguing the point?  You think that Thatguy is lying, and that there aren't a shitload of black men with stories exactly like his?

Edited September 17, 2020 by Brisketexan

[workswithseed 2201]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

OF course not ALL of any group feels a certain way.  That's not much of a point.

Your 80% number is wrong -- the president used it the other day, but he was wrong -- that's not what the polling shows.

The solid majority of black people say that have faced police discrimination.  We all know it's true, too.  Come on.  You know that it's true.  Are you really arguing the point?  You think that Thatguy is lying, and that there aren't a shitload of black men with stories exactly like his?

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

"STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Black Americans a bit more likely than most other groups to see police locally

Still, most (81%) want police to spend same amount of or more time in their area

Big racial gaps seen in views of police fairness, perceived bias"

Unless you're talking about something else, this is where I got my info from. I never said that black people or that guy's stories weren't being discriminated.

 

[Thatguy 9293]

44 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

"STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Black Americans a bit more likely than most other groups to see police locally

Still, most (81%) want police to spend same amount of or more time in their area

Big racial gaps seen in views of police fairness, perceived bias"

Unless you're talking about something else, this is where I got my info from. I never said that black people or that guy's stories weren't being discriminated.

 

  Just because I have been harassed by police doesn't mean I don't want police around. I would vote for police presence too. I just don't want them messing with me for no reason.

[Thatguy 9293]

1 hour ago, 52-80 said:

 

Imagine if 6 black people died and 6 white people died and claiming the Fire is racist because it didn't kill whites in proportionate numbers, not because that dozen of people ran towards the fire instead of away from it

That literally makes no sense.

[dcar00 14902]

2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  Just because I have been harassed by police doesn't mean I don't want police around. I would vote for police presence too. I just don't want them messing with me for no reason.

agreed.  I was actually harrassed by police for no reason when I was younger twice.  one time handcuffed, the other time not.

[dcar00 14902]

56 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

"STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Black Americans a bit more likely than most other groups to see police locally

Still, most (81%) want police to spend same amount of or more time in their area

Big racial gaps seen in views of police fairness, perceived bias"

Unless you're talking about something else, this is where I got my info from. I never said that black people or that guy's stories weren't being discriminated.

 

but the president was wrong!!

[Thatguy 9293]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

This thread is 70 pages of one side trying to make it only about the deaths, while the other side tries to redirect to the larger picture.

Imagine a thread about the wildfires in the west where half the posters continued to downplay it because only dozens of died out of the 10s of millions that live in the region.

  Not just about about deaths but only gun deaths. And not all gun deaths, but only unarmed gun death. Next thing we know it will be gun deaths between the hours of 1pm and 10pm, unarmed, and only counts if the police officer was white. White looking Hispanics are excluded.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Thatguy

[dcar00 14902]

11 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  Not just about about deaths but only gun deaths. And not all gun deaths, but only unarmed gun death. Next thing we know it will be gun deaths between the hours of 1pm and 10pm, unarmed, and only counts if the police officer was white. White looking Hispanics are excluded.

there has been discussion about the total number of black men per year shot and killed. it is between 200 and 300.  white is around 400 I believe.  total is about 1000.  I haven't see a number of deaths not related to gunshot.  maybe there is an in custody number.

[workswithseed 2201]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Your 80% number is wrong -- the president used it the other day, but he was wrong -- that's not what the polling shows.

Do you have another state that I don't know of?

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  Just because I have been harassed by police doesn't mean I don't want police around. I would vote for police presence too. I just don't want them messing with me for no reason.

I kinda get and don't, so people want to defend them, but also more?

[Thatguy 9293]

5 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

 

I kinda get and don't, so people want to defend them, but also more?

     Black People compartmentalize how they are treated by police in a separate place from the actual need for police in society. We like that they drive down our street, we just book it in the house when we see them coming. lol

 

 

 

[52-80 19379]

8 hours ago, workswithseed said:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx

"STORY HIGHLIGHTS

Black Americans a bit more likely than most other groups to see police locally

Still, most (81%) want police to spend same amount of or more time in their area

 

7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

  Just because I have been harassed by police doesn't mean I don't want police around. I would vote for police presence too.

Now extend the thought logic 1 step further.  The cause of people wanting the same or more presence of police in their area is...? Bueller?

[52-80 19379]

11 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

People have championed a shitload of cases that aren't grayscale.....and it doesn't matter, people try to turn them into grayscale.  Tamir Rice didn't matter, and hey, that kid should have dropped the toy gun in .00001 seconds. 

Does James Avery Bradley matter?  Are you outraged that this guy -- who was reported to police as having a firearm -- didnt get .00001 to drop his weapon? 

 

 

[Thatguy 9293]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Does James Avery Bradley matter?  Are you outraged that this guy -- who was reported to police as having a firearm -- didnt get .00001 to drop his weapon? 

 

 

  I are a psychopath or have you never seen the Tamir Rice video? Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid. 12 fucking years old man. He was playing with a toy gun. Someone called police and said a Black Kid had a gun in the park. Police recklessly drove right through the grass, right up next to him and shot him. There is no world where anything they did is justifiable. You making an attempt to justify what happened to that kid with this video says a lot more about you than you think. Check yourself man. A 12 year old is gonna 12 year old. Right now, you are doing EXACTLY what Brisket said, and looking for anyway to justify even the most reckless instance of police being out of bounds.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Thatguy

[Brisketexan 106619]

7 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  I are a psychopath or have you never seen the Tamir Rice video? Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid. 12 fucking years old man. He was playing with a toy gun. Someone called police and said a Black Kid had a gun in the park. Police recklessly drove right through the grass, right up next to him and shot him. There is no world where anything they did is justifiable. You making an attempt to justify what happened to that kid with this video says a lot more about you than you think. Check yourself man. A 12 year old is gonna 12 year old. Right now, you are doing EXACTLY what Brisket said, and looking for anyway to justify even the most reckless instance of police being out of bounds.

This.  Like clockwork.  It's Tamir Rice's fault he got shot, the cop was excused, because look, this one time, a cop had to shoot a guy right away.  The standard of conduct for being worthy of not being killed/assaulted for black people is "best behave better than Jesus....because remember, they killed that fucker too."

[VABuckeye 2481]

8 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  I are a psychopath or have you never seen the Tamir Rice video? Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid. 12 fucking years old man. He was playing with a toy gun. Someone called police and said a Black Kid had a gun in the park. Police recklessly drove right through the grass, right up next to him and shot him. There is no world where anything they did is justifiable. You making an attempt to justify what happened to that kid with this video says a lot more about you than you think. Check yourself man. A 12 year old is gonna 12 year old. Right now, you are doing EXACTLY what Brisket said, and looking for anyway to justify even the most reckless instance of police being out of bounds.

That isn't what he was stating at all.  He was saying that this shit does and can happen to all people regardless of race.

[Brisketexan 106619]

Just now, VABuckeye said:

That isn't what he was stating at all.  He was saying that this shit does and can happen to all people regardless of race.

Rice was a fucking kid.  With a toy.  And the cop created the "confrontation within .0001 seconds."  But other than that, spot-on.

[VABuckeye 2481]

I know he was a kid and it's tragic.  Stil, the point remains that in many instances police have shot first and asked questions later.  Nothing makes that right.

Or do you want to argue just to fucking argue because at times that's all you do.

[BabaYaga 15532]

19 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  I are a psychopath or have you never seen the Tamir Rice video? Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid. 12 fucking years old man. He was playing with a toy gun. Someone called police and said a Black Kid had a gun in the park. Police recklessly drove right through the grass, right up next to him and shot him. There is no world where anything they did is justifiable. You making an attempt to justify what happened to that kid with this video says a lot more about you than you think. Check yourself man.

Jesus dude, are you not fucking getting this?  Nobody is "OK" with any of this shit.  Nobody.  Everyone agrees policing needs to be better.  There have been vigorous pushback on "why" many events happened and shared responsibility (like not trying to take a LEs gun, pulling a weapon, or charging them, shit that gets you shot regardless of race, etc), but not on the needed end results.

The distinction is on how to get there.  One side wants to cut the funding and resources of the precincts and send in unarmed, hopefully trained (we'll get to that in a sec), social workers with the "hope" it works. 

The other argues that in fact the majority of these occurrences could be better managed by MORE resources:  more training, more situational awareness, more de-escalation help, more time learning how to better handle people instead of going to the gun.  Why not both?  Either way, it seems more, and not less resources are needed.  That is the main distinction.

Then there is the mechanism protecting bad officers.  You can't just "end racism" in 10's of thousands of precincts any more than you can "end sadness".  Both are a part of the human condition to some extent.  But you can remove the structural mechanisms protecting bad actors.  Sunlight, again is always the best disinfectant.  There is a reason cockroaches flee when exposed.  So facilitate exposure with the express statement that protections and obfuscation are no longer available.  That is how you change culture.  You can also add additional levels of civilian oversight as needed.  

Edited September 18, 2020 by BabaYaga

[BabaYaga 15532]

5 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

Or do you want to argue just to fucking argue because at times that's all you do.

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by BabaYaga

[52-80 19379]

14 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  I are a psychopath or have you never seen the Tamir Rice video? Tamir Rice was a 12 year old kid. 12 fucking years old man. He was playing with a toy gun. Someone called police and said a Black Kid had a gun in the park. Police recklessly drove right through the grass, right up next to him and shot him. There is no world where anything they did is justifiable. You making an attempt to justify what happened to that kid with this video says a lot more about you than you think. Check yourself man. A 12 year old is gonna 12 year old. Right now, you are doing EXACTLY what Brisket said, and looking for anyway to justify even the most reckless instance of police being out of bounds.

Yeah bro, that's a totally sincere description.  Like the police were instructed "there is a 12 year old playing with a toy gun at the park".

 

Nevermind the call to the police reported a person pointing a gun at multiple people.  The person looked to be 20 (caller's description).  The toy gun looked like a real gun (yellow tip was missing). 

 

Fact:  911 dispatch relayed that a person with a gun was pointing it at multiple people.  Police came, gun was raised at them, and police fired.

Fact:  911 dispatch relayed that a person walking around a trailer park with a rifle.  Police came, gun was raised at them, and police within split second.

 

If you want to make the claim police are quick triggered, that's fine.  But I don't see you crying why they didn't check how old James Bradley was, or if his rifle was an Airsoft

[bad_teammate 13479]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

One side wants to cut the funding and resources of the precincts and send in unarmed, hopefully trained (we'll get to that in a sec), social workers with the "hope" it works.

It does work. Pilot programs here work and you can look at other countries where it works.

Quote

The other argues that in fact the majority of these occurrences could be better managed by MORE resources:  more training, more situational awareness, more de-escalation help, more time learning how to better handle people instead of going to the gun.  Why not both?

So it seems like your main issue is that you want to make sure guns aren't taken away from police?

[BabaYaga 15532]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

It does work. Pilot programs here work and you can look at other countries where it works.

So it seems like your main issue is that you want to make sure guns aren't taken away from police?

Not sure why any of you engage BT. Just ignore him and move on.

I deleted a post here that BT is now using to claim everyone is a white supremacist. BT if you're just going to name call please find another board to post on. 

-Blacklab

[Brisketexan 106619]

4 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

The other argues that in fact the majority of these occurrences could be better managed by MORE resources:  more training, more situational awareness, more de-escalation help, more time learning how to better handle people instead of going to the gun.  Why not both?  Either way, it seems more, and not less resources are needed.  That is the main distinction.

What will always amaze me is that dysfunctional government doesn't deserve funding, and certainly not more funding......unless that dysfunctional government unit carries guns, like the police and military.  Then, the answer to any failures is SPEND MORE.  REWARD THEM WITH MORE MONEY.  And that's exactly how PDs are acting -- like spoiled, petulant government units, bitching about "HOW DARE YOU CUT MY BUDGET?"

If we focused on the IRS abusing its power, overstepping, ruining people's lives with extra-legal and extra-judicial actions, would any of us be talking about how the solution is to give the IRS MORE money?

It really is fascinating to watch the dissonance.  

Again, the proposal to deal with broken police departments that give zero fucks about the people and repeatedly and arrogantly extend the middle finger to the people.....is to reward them with more money.  That's just....incredible.

[bad_teammate 13479]

Weirdly hostile reaction to a simple question lol