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Ted Lange
Ted Lange
MoJames
MoJames

Yeah but fuck City

Cheeseweasel
Cheeseweasel

We've done reaaaaaaaly well with teams outside of the top 8, right?

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yoladu

yoladu 4061

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

So no talk yet about Project Big Picture?

Major financial help for the lower leagues, with a big schedule reshaping (for the better) but at the same time consolidating power in the EPL, especially in the "Big 6" in a way that might not be great in the future.

view from the South Coast.

https://www.hampshirelive.news/sport/football/football-news/southampton-project-big-picture-liverpool-4600028

Quote

Why 'Project Big Picture' could spell bad news for Southampton's future

The plan names Southampton as one of the Premier League's "big clubs" but it does not mean a positive future for the club, according to football finance expert Kieran Maguire

 

Manchester United and Liverpool's proposed 'Project Big Picture' will change the course of Southampton's future in the Premier League for the worse, football finance expert Kieran Maguire has warned.

The plan that has gained support from EFL chief Rick Parry looks to offer £350m (£250m to the EFL and £100m to the FA) to support struggling clubs up and down the English football pyramid.

It will also see a greater share of the Premier League's lucrative £5b-per-year TV deal distributed amongst English clubs allowing those in the Championship, League One and League Two more income to stay afloat.

But in exchange, clubs supporting the plan have called for the top division to shrink from 20 clubs to 18 clubs in a move that critics say will allow them to move towards evolving the Champions League into a European Super League.

That will see the likes of United, Liverpool and Chelsea lock horns with Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich on a weekly basis.

And the plan will also look to hand the power of running the Premier League to it's nine "biggest clubs", including Southampton, but it will only take six votes to sway any decision allowing English football's big six to control who owns their rivals, how many games they play and the future of all their competitions.

While Southampton will find themselves sat around the biggest boardroom table in world football under this plan, it will only see them drifting further and further away from their rivals, says Maguire.

"The division between the big six clubs and the other 14 will grow to an even greater extent than we see at present," he told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"There will be an enhanced Champions League with the prospect of 12 group games and lucrative pre-season friendlies.

"I have managed to get hold of the document itself and it says that all Premier League clubs should have the exclusive rights to sell eight live matches per season direct to fans so clearly this is going to benefit the likes of Liverpool and Manchester United far more than the likes of Burnley and Fulham.

"The gap between the rich and the poor of the Premier League will grow as the voting rights gap will grow too," he said.

"Some people are trying to portray this as Manchester United and Liverpool being a combination of Father Christmas and Mother Theresa but they are the two that this plan will benefit most financially from this because they will be able to sell their own right themselves.

"They will be able to benefit from an expanded Champions League and they will be able to go on very lucrative pre-season international friendly tours."

 

 

Edited by yoladu
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Schulz2.0

Schulz2.0 28698

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

So no talk yet about Project Big Picture?

Major financial help for the lower leagues, with a big schedule reshaping (for the better) but at the same time consolidating power in the EPL, especially in the "Big 6" in a way that might not be great in the future.

Its not going to pass. Dave Parry, John Henry, and the Glazers can eat shit.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/oct/12/project-big-picture-under-pressure-as-premier-league-clubs-fail-to-back-reform

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12756

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On Project Big Picture, here is the initial article that outlines it from the Telegraph:

 

Spoiler

Manchester United and Liverpool are the driving force behind the biggest changes to English football in a generation and an extraordinary overhaul of the Premier League, The Telegraph can reveal.

 

The two clubs have worked together on a radical set of proposals – called “Project Big Picture” - that will reshape the finances of the game. The Premier League, the most lucrative sports league in the world, would see a reduction to 18 teams, and controlling power in the hands of the biggest clubs.

 

In return for tearing up many of the rules that have governed the game since the Premier League’s inception in 1992 there will be a £250 million rescue package to the Football League to see them through the Covid crisis.

 

The Telegraph can reveal the details of the working document “Revitalisation” authored by Liverpool’s American ownership Fenway Sports Group with support from United. It anticipates the backing of the other members of the so-called big six, Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur.

 

In a remarkable set of proposals, which will send shockwaves through the game, 25 per cent of the Premier League’s annual revenue will go to the EFL clubs with £250 million paid up front to see them through the current crisis. There would also be a gift of £100 million to sustain the Football Association.

 

However, there would be an abolition of the one-club, one-vote principle that has sustained the Premier League since its inception as well as the abolition of the threshold of 14 votes to pass any decision or regulation change.

 

Under the new proposals, the League Cup and the Community Shield would be abolished. There have been additional discussions that the League Cup would survive but without the participation of the clubs in Europe.

 

There would be two automatic promotion places for Championship clubs, but the third, fourth and fifth placed clubs would be in a play-off tournament with the 16th placed Premier League club.

 

The nine clubs who have been in the Premier League for the longest - which includes the big six - would dictate its running in every aspect and would be free to play more games in the expanded Champions League that is anticipated from the 2024-2025 season onwards.

 

As well as the Premier League dropping from 20 clubs to 18, there would be 24 in each of the Championship, League One and League Two making a total of 90.

 

The plan is supported by the EFL chairman Rick Parry who has held talks with Liverpool’s principal owner, the American investor John W Henry, and shareholder and director Mike Gordon. In addition, Parry has spoken to the Glazer family, who own United.

 

The talks began in 2017 but have been accelerated since the coronavirus pandemic has thrust football into the grip of crisis with no fans in stadiums until March at the earliest. Liverpool and United are prepared for a fierce debate over their proposals but they want them implemented as soon as possible and to take effect for the 2022-23 season.

 

The Revitalisation document calls for immediate action to cut dramatically what it calls the “revenue chasm” in earnings from television contracts between the Premier League and the EFL. In order to discourage Championship clubs from gambling recklessly on promotion, the parachute payments system would be abolished in favour of the 25 per cent share of Premier League revenue being shared more equitably among EFL clubs.

 

Under proposals for the new model of distribution of television revenue in the Premier League, Fenway, the driving force behind the document, insist there would be no greater share for the top six.

 

Their stated aim is to eliminate the huge gap in earnings between Premier League and EFL clubs while in return having a greater control of the decisions made by the Premier League.

 

The document says: “A reset of the economics and governance of the English football pyramid is long overdue”.

 

The proposals also rewrite the Premier League’s 20-club democracy in favour of placing huge power in the hands of the nine clubs with the longest continual stay in the division. As things stand that is the big six, as well as Everton, Southampton and West Ham. Those nine clubs afforded “long-term shareholder status” would have unprecedented power, with the votes of just six of them required to make sweeping changes. These clubs would even be able to veto a new owner taking over a rival club.

 

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Parry said that he had the support of many of his 72 members, many currently facing financial ruin, to go ahead with the plan. He said: “What do we do? Leave it exactly as it is and allow the smaller clubs to wither? Or do we do something about it? And you can’t do something about it without something changing. And the view of our clubs is if the [big] six get some benefits but the 72 also do, we are up for it.”

 

He accepted there would be opposition from the Premier League clubs outside the big six who would see it as detrimental to their financial prospects with less money and two fewer places in the top flight.

 

“It is definitely going to be challenging and it is an enormous change so that won’t be without some pain,” Parry said: “Do I genuinely think it’s for the greater good of the game as a whole? Absolutely. And if the [big] six are deriving some benefit then why shouldn’t they. Why wouldn’t they put their names to this otherwise?”

 

The proposals include:

  • £250 million immediately to the EFL to compensate its clubs for lost matchday revenue, deducted from future television revenue earnings and financed by a loan taken out by the Premier League
  • Special status for the nine longest serving clubs – and the vote of only six of those “long-term shareholders” required to make major changes, including amending rules and regulations, agreeing contracts, removal of the chief executive, and a wide-ranging veto including on club ownership
  • Premier League to go to 18 clubs from 20
  • £100 million one-off gift to the FA to cover its coronavirus losses, the non-league game, the women’s game, the grassroots
  • 8.5 per cent of annual net Premier League revenue to go on operating costs and “good causes” including the FA
  • From the remainder, 25 per cent of all combined Premier League and Football League revenues to go to the EFL clubs
  • Six per cent of Premier League gross revenues to pay for stadium improvements across the top four divisions, calculated at £100 per seat
  • New rules for the distribution of Premier League television income, overseas and domestic, including proposals that base one portion on performance over three years in the league
  • The abolition of the League Cup and the Community Shield
  • 24 clubs each in the Championship, League One and League Two reducing the professional game overall from 92 clubs to 90
  • A women's professional league independent of the Premier League or the FA
  • Two sides automatically relegated from the Premier League every season and the top two Championship teams promoted. The 16th place Premier League club in a play-off tournament with the Championship’s third, fourth and fifth placed teams.
  • Financial fair play regulations in line with Uefa, and full access for Premier League executive to club accounts
  • A fan charter including capping of away tickets at £20, away travel subsidised, a focus on a return to safe standing, a minimum away allocation of eight per cent capacity
  • Later Premier League start in August to give greater scope for pre-season friendlies, and requirement for all clubs to compete once every five years in a summer Premier League tournament
  • Huge changes to loan system allowing clubs to have 15 players out on loan domestically at any one time and up to four at a single club in England

 

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12756

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Posted

I'm not a huge fan of the "Top 9 Clubs". I'm even less of a fan of how they determine the top 9 clubs, the "nine longest serving clubs."

They take the 9 current teams who's current tenure is the longest: The 6 clubs never relegated from the EPL: Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, ManU, and Spurs. Plus Man City (19 season), Southampton (9 seasons), and West Ham (9 seasons).

And while I get they are doing this in a way that does anything they can to get Man City in, it ignores that you have 3 teams currently in the EPL that have had longer times in the EPL than Man City (24 total season) - Newcastle (26 total seasons), Aston Villa (25 seasons) and West Ham (25 seasons). This is especially true of Villa who was the last founding member to be relegated.

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12756

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

That sounds awesome.

Make no mistake, outside of consolidation of power in the Big 6, this is a great plan. The distribution of wealth, the modified promotion/relegation system, etc. it's cool.

I would note that you might as well make it just 2 teams are promoted/relegated. If you take a playoff between EPL 16 vs Championship 3-4-5, I would put my money on EPL 16 winning that every year.

  • Hook 'Em 2
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yoladu

yoladu 4061

Posted
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

For fans who want to see their team fight against relegation. And neutrals. 

i cant think of any fans who want to see their team be in a fight against relegation, but yeah the specter of relegation looms largely (for the non Top 6) if it goes to an 18 club league, with 3 relegations spots still in place, regardless if the 3rd spot club gets one game to avoid.

it all kind of comes off as "Roman Coliseum" fodder for the Big 6 - let's watch the other teams slug it out for their own survival - wont that be fun?!

I dont know, the whole proposal comes off really condescending to me. Maybe i am being too sensitive, but i likely dont view the PL the same way as others do. I have never once thought in August, this is the year we win the league! have you?

Edited by yoladu
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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

On Project Big Picture, here is the initial article that outlines it from the Telegraph:

 

  Hide contents

Manchester United and Liverpool are the driving force behind the biggest changes to English football in a generation and an extraordinary overhaul of the Premier League, The Telegraph can reveal.

 

The two clubs have worked together on a radical set of proposals – called “Project Big Picture” - that will reshape the finances of the game. The Premier League, the most lucrative sports league in the world, would see a reduction to 18 teams, and controlling power in the hands of the biggest clubs.

 

In return for tearing up many of the rules that have governed the game since the Premier League’s inception in 1992 there will be a £250 million rescue package to the Football League to see them through the Covid crisis.

 

The Telegraph can reveal the details of the working document “Revitalisation” authored by Liverpool’s American ownership Fenway Sports Group with support from United. It anticipates the backing of the other members of the so-called big six, Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham Hotspur.

 

In a remarkable set of proposals, which will send shockwaves through the game, 25 per cent of the Premier League’s annual revenue will go to the EFL clubs with £250 million paid up front to see them through the current crisis. There would also be a gift of £100 million to sustain the Football Association.

 

However, there would be an abolition of the one-club, one-vote principle that has sustained the Premier League since its inception as well as the abolition of the threshold of 14 votes to pass any decision or regulation change.

 

Under the new proposals, the League Cup and the Community Shield would be abolished. There have been additional discussions that the League Cup would survive but without the participation of the clubs in Europe.

 

There would be two automatic promotion places for Championship clubs, but the third, fourth and fifth placed clubs would be in a play-off tournament with the 16th placed Premier League club.

 

The nine clubs who have been in the Premier League for the longest - which includes the big six - would dictate its running in every aspect and would be free to play more games in the expanded Champions League that is anticipated from the 2024-2025 season onwards.

 

As well as the Premier League dropping from 20 clubs to 18, there would be 24 in each of the Championship, League One and League Two making a total of 90.

 

The plan is supported by the EFL chairman Rick Parry who has held talks with Liverpool’s principal owner, the American investor John W Henry, and shareholder and director Mike Gordon. In addition, Parry has spoken to the Glazer family, who own United.

 

The talks began in 2017 but have been accelerated since the coronavirus pandemic has thrust football into the grip of crisis with no fans in stadiums until March at the earliest. Liverpool and United are prepared for a fierce debate over their proposals but they want them implemented as soon as possible and to take effect for the 2022-23 season.

 

The Revitalisation document calls for immediate action to cut dramatically what it calls the “revenue chasm” in earnings from television contracts between the Premier League and the EFL. In order to discourage Championship clubs from gambling recklessly on promotion, the parachute payments system would be abolished in favour of the 25 per cent share of Premier League revenue being shared more equitably among EFL clubs.

 

Under proposals for the new model of distribution of television revenue in the Premier League, Fenway, the driving force behind the document, insist there would be no greater share for the top six.

 

Their stated aim is to eliminate the huge gap in earnings between Premier League and EFL clubs while in return having a greater control of the decisions made by the Premier League.

 

The document says: “A reset of the economics and governance of the English football pyramid is long overdue”.

 

The proposals also rewrite the Premier League’s 20-club democracy in favour of placing huge power in the hands of the nine clubs with the longest continual stay in the division. As things stand that is the big six, as well as Everton, Southampton and West Ham. Those nine clubs afforded “long-term shareholder status” would have unprecedented power, with the votes of just six of them required to make sweeping changes. These clubs would even be able to veto a new owner taking over a rival club.

 

In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Parry said that he had the support of many of his 72 members, many currently facing financial ruin, to go ahead with the plan. He said: “What do we do? Leave it exactly as it is and allow the smaller clubs to wither? Or do we do something about it? And you can’t do something about it without something changing. And the view of our clubs is if the [big] six get some benefits but the 72 also do, we are up for it.”

 

He accepted there would be opposition from the Premier League clubs outside the big six who would see it as detrimental to their financial prospects with less money and two fewer places in the top flight.

 

“It is definitely going to be challenging and it is an enormous change so that won’t be without some pain,” Parry said: “Do I genuinely think it’s for the greater good of the game as a whole? Absolutely. And if the [big] six are deriving some benefit then why shouldn’t they. Why wouldn’t they put their names to this otherwise?”

 

The proposals include:

  • £250 million immediately to the EFL to compensate its clubs for lost matchday revenue, deducted from future television revenue earnings and financed by a loan taken out by the Premier League
  • Special status for the nine longest serving clubs – and the vote of only six of those “long-term shareholders” required to make major changes, including amending rules and regulations, agreeing contracts, removal of the chief executive, and a wide-ranging veto including on club ownership
  • Premier League to go to 18 clubs from 20
  • £100 million one-off gift to the FA to cover its coronavirus losses, the non-league game, the women’s game, the grassroots
  • 8.5 per cent of annual net Premier League revenue to go on operating costs and “good causes” including the FA
  • From the remainder, 25 per cent of all combined Premier League and Football League revenues to go to the EFL clubs
  • Six per cent of Premier League gross revenues to pay for stadium improvements across the top four divisions, calculated at £100 per seat
  • New rules for the distribution of Premier League television income, overseas and domestic, including proposals that base one portion on performance over three years in the league
  • The abolition of the League Cup and the Community Shield
  • 24 clubs each in the Championship, League One and League Two reducing the professional game overall from 92 clubs to 90
  • A women's professional league independent of the Premier League or the FA
  • Two sides automatically relegated from the Premier League every season and the top two Championship teams promoted. The 16th place Premier League club in a play-off tournament with the Championship’s third, fourth and fifth placed teams.
  • Financial fair play regulations in line with Uefa, and full access for Premier League executive to club accounts
  • A fan charter including capping of away tickets at £20, away travel subsidised, a focus on a return to safe standing, a minimum away allocation of eight per cent capacity
  • Later Premier League start in August to give greater scope for pre-season friendlies, and requirement for all clubs to compete once every five years in a summer Premier League tournament
  • Huge changes to loan system allowing clubs to have 15 players out on loan domestically at any one time and up to four at a single club in England

 

I'm still digesting it all. I can see the rationale but I can also see why clubs would be fearful. 

Edited by maninblack
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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12756

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Posted
5 hours ago, maninblack said:

I'm still digesting it all. I can see the rationale but I can also see why clubs would be fearful. 

To me it's really this: 

  • Special status for the nine longest serving clubs – and the vote of only six of those “long-term shareholders” required to make major changes, including amending rules and regulations, agreeing contracts, removal of the chief executive, and a wide-ranging veto including on club ownership

Basically when you dig through it all, it gives the Big 6 basically total power (as a group) over the leagues. That doesn't sound like a good idea.

  • Hook 'Em 1
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CDAK

CDAK 216

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Posted

As someone who is a casual fan of a non big 6 team, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel. My initial inclination was to be against the proposal when I read it was from ManU and Liverpool, but that's probably unfair to judge the proposal by the submitters. After reading slightly more, it seems like my initial instinct was correct, however. It's really annoying that they threatened to leave the EPL. Are we already that far along in an protracted negotiation that teams are threatening to leave the league?

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Bone3421

Bone3421 716

Posted
Posted

The concentration of power into the hands of the BIG 6 should make everyone worrisome...I'm fine with it staying as is.

 

No need to go to 18 teams and like mentioned above,what really needs to be addressed is FFP.

 

I believe it was 250mil that liverpool made when it finished 2nd and won the CL...do the top teams need more than that?

 

 

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 12756

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Posted

We can stop all the talk, the Project is dead.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/10/14/liverpool-man-united-forced-forced-abandon-project-big-picture/

Quote

The Premier League is understood to be prepared to announce that it has reached unanimous agreement with all 20 members, including Liverpool and Manchester United that it will not consider the proposals.

It also calls into question the support the plan had from the lower leagues where there was talk it was uniformly supported.

In the end the EPL does not want to just grant control to those with the biggest purse strings.

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maninblack

maninblack 7974

Posted
Posted

If Covaids starts putting EFL clubs out of business it'll be interesting to see if this comes back up. To me it looked like a bribe to gain control. I'm really not sure what slights the Big 6 have in the background but I haven't seen too many stories over the last few years of discontent. 

Something tells me this is not the last we've heard of this or something like it.

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yoladu

yoladu 4061

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On 10/14/2020 at 12:09 PM, Jive Turkey said:

great slate of games on Saturday:

Liverpool/Everton - 6:30 am on NBCSN

Chelsea/Southampton - 9 am on NBCSN

Man City/Arsenal - 11:30 am on big boy NBC

Newcastle/ManU - 2 pm on Peacock

seven "Big 9" clubs playing this Saturday :)

  • Hook 'Em 1
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sidis

sidis 9686

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Posted

Haven’t watched the whole game yet but I did see the offsides controversy and I will admit that i would be annoyed if that went against my club. That is two pretty big breaks Everton has gotten this year between that and handball at crystal palace. As a Texas and Everton fan, it is super fucking weird to be on the benefitting side of questionable officiating. 

More concerning to me is the apparent lack of mental toughness and playing from a place of frustration based on reviewing the Everton fan boards and the red card. The fact that they legitimately drew level after going down twice in the game certainly reflects the turn the team has made but getting red cards at the end, Pickford continuing to be an idiot...concerning. 

seems like the 100th derby draw in a row at goodison. 

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