EPL 2020-21

[Captain Ron 12793]

2 hours ago, Sgt Hulk said:

As someone that doesn’t watch much soccer. Can someone explain the events going on with Manchester that espn is showing videos of 

Unlike American fans, European fans don’t just roll over and take the crap ownership gives them. 

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

american pro sports fans are drones.  college football fans consider themselves stakeholders and can actually influence.

great commentary here, scroll down to videos captioned:

"grame souness says...."

then scroll back up to

"gary neville suggests...."

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/12293346/manchester-united-vs-liverpool-postponed-after-anti-glazer-fan-protests-at-old-trafford

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

'Any supporters in this position would have done this'

Former Liverpool and England defender Jamie Carragher, speaking to Sky Sports: "Let's not get away with why this has been done. Any other supporters in this position would have done it. There will always be a few idiots. But let's not the forget the main reason why they did this."

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

this is 2 weeks old

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/22/after-the-super-league-fiasco-five-reforms-that-could-save-the-game

The fiasco of the botched European Super League plot has rebounded so overwhelmingly against football’s richest clubs that it has profoundly strengthened the case for reform that supporters’ groups have been making for a generation. The timing for the fateful decision by the Premier League’s “big six” to participate was itself very ill-judged, as the government’s patience with big-money football has become increasingly strained through the pandemic.

The “fan-led review”, promised in the Conservative party’s 2019 manifesto but delayed since the election, has been launched in response and the money-grab motivating the failed breakaway has clarified the issues it must address: football’s extreme financial inequality and the excessive power of a few clubs at the top. The terms of reference issued by the government signal the review will indeed examine the game’s finances, ownership and whether it now needs independent regulation.

The Premier League itself is now so publicly split between the six and the other 14 who stood up so adamantly against the breakaway that it will struggle to present a united response to the government’s review. The league did that successfully in response to many previous inquiries, dazzling governments with the global reach of the English game and the clubs’ admirable community work, and fending off those who argued for fundamental reform.

In the past year, however, after both Conservative and Labour politicians were already bewildered at the collapses of Bury and Wigan despite football’s greatest boom, the pandemic has spotlit the glaring financial inequalities very starkly. While the big clubs are apparently obsessing about their own losses and a desire for more control of future broadcasting revenues, including from streaming their matches to their global fanbases, ministers grew intensely frustrated at the Premier League’s delay in agreeing a Covid-19 rescue fund for EFL clubs that were seriously struggling. Then, with the return of normal life finally in sight after the pandemic’s horror and sacrifice, the rich clubs unleashed their Super League money-grab instead of a plan, as Uefa said, to rebuild the sport together.

As well as spectacularly highlighting English football’s faultlines, all this has shone a light on the possible solutions – particularly the less corporate German model, given the non-participation of Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund in the Super League. With Boris Johnson having threatened a “legislative bomb” to stop the breakaway, a feeling is growing that – surprising as it is under a Conservative government – the combination of circumstances has produced a historic opportunity for genuine change. The Football Supporters’ Association, whose recommendations have often been indulged but not implemented, is now a central participant in the fan-led review.

Ideas for reforming the game in its post-1992 Premier League era of mega-commercialisation have always been based on the yearning to protect its sporting heart and communal soul, and never very complicated for the famously simple, beautiful game. Shaped for today’s circumstances, just a few overarching proposals could fulfil that function and are likely to be considered by the fan-led review and its chair, the former sports minister Tracey Crouch. These five changes are ideas whose time may finally have come.

Fairer distribution of money

One of the most exasperating elements of the Super League plan to almost everybody else was the repeated sense from Real Madrid, Liverpool, Arsenal and the other richest clubs in Europe that somehow the system isn’t working for them. While they nurse their losses from the Covid-19 shutdown and were wowed by projections from the merchant bank, JP Morgan, of how much money they could be making, the rest of the game argues the distribution needs to flow the other way – more equally.

When a sport becomes so grossly unequal, dominated on and off the field by billionaire-owned corporations, it is betraying its heritage, as the fans’ outcry against the Super League has shown. Distribution of money is an essential component of competitive sport; the sharing of gate receipts by home and away clubs was agreed at the Football League’s very founding in 1888. The US sports in which the owners of Liverpool, Manchester United and Arsenal own “franchises” distribute TV and commercial revenues very equally, to ensure relatively even teams create genuine competition.

The 1992 Premier League breakaway broke the system of shared money through the Football League’s four divisions, with shared gate receipts having been abolished in 1983, and concentrated wealth at the biggest clubs. However the Premier League presents its distributions to the rest of the game it has amounted to approximately 7% of its TV income in total, and there is revulsion at clubs going bust lower down, and grassroots facilities still wanting, with so much money at the top.

‘Golden share’ in clubs for supporters

A potential English version of the German clubs’ structure, now suddenly admired across Europe, where majority control is held by a supporters’ association even at the wealthiest, dominant clubs, Bayern and Dortmund. The “50%+1 rule” ensuring supporter control in Germany does not always mean fans own a majority of shares, but they have a controlling stake when key decisions are made.

During English football’s dash for cash, many local club owners made multimillions selling their shares to overseas investors, free of historic Football Association rules that had restrained the personal gains that could be made from owning clubs. The football corporations now dominating the Premier League, wholly owned by investors, are an outcome of this deregulation.

As fans cannot afford to buy meaningful stakes in these club-corporations, an idea is a “golden share” structure, in which a properly constituted supporters association would have voting control over defined significant decisions. These would include any fundamental changes at their own club but can also include wider issues, including resisting any talk of breakaways.

Supporter representatives on club boards

This was actively floated in this week’s fallout by Julian Knight, Conservative chair of the culture, media and sport select committee. He and fellow MPs have been schooled in football’s brutal realities by their inquiry into the 2019 wreck of Bury after 125 years of Football League membership, and their fury at the Premier League’s delay in agreeing a Covid-19 rescue fund. That has embedded a view that the clubs themselves need proper involvement of supporters to ground them in collective responsibility.

Work remains to be done to develop a proposal, including how a supporter representative would be appointed, presumably involving some democratic election. Clubs may resist it but improved liaison with supporter groups currently has limited impact on boards’ decision-making, and clearly fans were not consulted before six clubs hurtled into the Super League dead end.

Strengthened and continual ‘fit and proper persons’ test

The existing “fit and proper persons test” for owners and directors is itself an illustration of the football authorities being pushed by campaigners into reform for their own good. The Premier League resisted introducing such a test for years, arguing it could be illegal, until the Football League finally introduced some rules in June 2004 and the Premier League followed in August of that year.

The current rule, which bars people who are insolvent or have unspent convictions, is a bare minimum safeguard. It needs widening to consider wider modern issues and more broadly to encourage owners who will be good custodians. A further idea is for the test to be ongoing, so that owners sign up to abiding by all agreed rules, structures and governance. If they consider breaching them – for example, by forming a breakaway Super League – they risk falling foul of the rule and being banned at least as directors of their own clubs.

An independent regulator

After so many years in which this idea has been floated but resisted by the FA and leagues, independent regulation is coming to seem like a reform whose time has come. The sense has hardened that while the game is flourishing more than ever but harbouring structural faults it cannot any longer regulate itself. The FA should have this role as the governing body but it has been sorely weakened by Premier League resistance and become largely absent from the biggest questions of money and power.

An independent regulator could work by formally holding the game to abiding by its reformed structures, including the more equal sharing of money – and to agreed standards on fighting racism and other fundamental issues. These could also include the game’s “consumer” issues, including making tickets and televised matches more affordable after the years of hyper-inflated prices.

It may seem far-fetched that a Conservative government could consider regulation in this way, but Oliver Dowden, the culture secretary, recognised this week that football is a part of national heritage that needs protecting. Inadvertently, the richest clubs, with their extreme actions, have spectacularly made the case for this themselves.

[Captain Ron 12793]

24 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Unlike American fans, European fans don’t just roll over and take the crap ownership gives them. 

I would just add before anyone says, oh but American fans ... NO

Indianapolis Colts

Tennessee Titans

LA Rams

LA Chargers

The Raiders

Baltimore Ravens

Carolina Hurricanes

New Orleans Pelicans

And those are the ones that come to RECENT memory. 

[mdmost 42827]

Seattle Supersonics

 

[yoladu 4066]

last week - dubious red  - VAR says yes.

Friday - dubious red - VAR says yes.

Today - OBVIOUS red - VAR says naw.

[Captain Ron 12793]

19 minutes ago, yoladu said:

last week - dubious red  - VAR says yes.

Friday - dubious red - VAR says yes.

Today - OBVIOUS red - VAR says naw.

Jesus. Just saw that clip - how the hell does the ref not show a red card for that?

[Captain Ron 12793]

On 5/1/2021 at 11:36 AM, mdmost said:

Brighton doing their best to stay out of the relegation zone. 

I don't see how the relegation race isn't over now. Even with Newcastle's loss, the teams in the drop zone are way down.

Fulham 9 down with 4 left
West Brom 11 down with 5 left

I don't see them coming back from those gaps.

[WBT 20411]

I just watched the highlights of the late game...man bun top knot had quite a game.

[Captain Ron 12793]

I guess I would ask this: does anyone think this is going to make any of these guys sell their clubs? I’ve heard chatter about Spotify’s owner Ek making a pitch to buy Arsenal. But given that Kronke is in the sports team owning business, I don’t see it. And same with Glazers.

I agree, this will stop moves like the ESL, we hope. But forcing their hand to sell? I don’t see it.

Thoughts?

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

10 downing and parliament have to decide what they have a taste for and how far they are willing to go.    about all i can add at this point is, westminster is not the swamp.

[Captain Ron 12793]

Of course it is (a swamp). Boris Johnson likely knew about the ESL before it was public and probably approved it until he saw it was so unpopular and supporting it was political suicide.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/25/boris-johnson-urged-reveal-if-endorsed-european-super-league-plans

[Captain Ron 12793]

Someone asked a few weeks back how these owners misread the fans.

I think we nailed it at the top of this page- they assumed English fans would just take it no lube like American fans.

One additional thing is that the owners have zero leverage to threaten a move. St Louis Rams can’t get X or Y, well LA here we come! Kronke, can’t move Arsenal the same way. 

They just don’t have the same tools at their disposal in the European markets. 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

15 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Someone asked a few weeks back how these owners misread the fans.

I think we nailed it at the top of this page- they assumed English fans would just take it no lube like American fans.

One additional thing is that the owners have zero leverage to threaten a move. St Louis Rams can’t get X or Y, well LA here we come! Kronke, can’t move Arsenal the same way. 

They just don’t have the same tools at their disposal in the European markets. 

I was trying to explain it to my FIL this weekend. The best thing I could say was "The Raiders are a football team that people root for. If you are in Texas it doesn't matter if the Raiders are in LA or LV. Liverpool is a team in Liverpool. If you move "The Reds" to Blackpool, they aren't Liverpool anymore".

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

there is one example of an FA club moving: wimbledon -> milton keynes

the easiest way to explain this situation to the uninitiated:  soccer worldwide is like college football in the US; club and school are synonymous.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

6 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

Of course it is (a swamp). Boris Johnson likely knew about the ESL before it was public and probably approved it until he saw it was so unpopular and supporting it was political suicide.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/25/boris-johnson-urged-reveal-if-endorsed-european-super-league-plans

political campaign contributions and their effects have produced 2 entirely different systems of 'democracy' in congress and parliament.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

owner's charter:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/56972776

[Captain Ron 12793]

9 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I was trying to explain it to my FIL this weekend. The best thing I could say was "The Raiders are a football team that people root for. If you are in Texas it doesn't matter if the Raiders are in LA or LV. Liverpool is a team in Liverpool. If you move "The Reds" to Blackpool, they aren't Liverpool anymore".

Tell him the king and the land are one.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

 

[Captain Ron 12793]

So Uh, when are they going to play Man U-Liverpool? If you look at the schedule, there is no aligned open date for either of them the rest of the way

Mid Week May 4-6 - ManU - Europa League, Liverpool - OPEN
Weekend May 8-9 - ManU - @Villa, Liverpool - vs Soton
Mid Week May 11-13 - ManU - vs Leicester, Liverpool - OPEN
Weekend May 15-16 - ManU - OPEN, Liverpool - @West Brom - FA Cup Final - Leicester-Chelsea
Mid Week May 18-20 - ManU - vs Fulham, Liverpool - @Burnley 
Sunday May 23 - ManU - @Wolves, Liverpool - vs Crystal Palace

Actually, I think I see how it can be done: Move West Brom-Liverpool to midweek May 11-13, ManU-Liverpool can be played the weekend of May 15-16

Edited May 4, 2021 by Captain Ron

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

my guess is the prem hopes:

- chelsea & leicester do the business

- pool craters

- and they don't have to play it

[mdmost 42827]

23 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

So Uh, when are they going to play Man U-Liverpool? If you look at the schedule, there is no aligned open date for either of them the rest of the way

Mid Week May 4-6 - ManU - Europa League, Liverpool - OPEN
Weekend May 8-9 - ManU - @Villa, Liverpool - vs Soton
Mid Week May 11-13 - ManU - vs Leicester, Liverpool - OPEN
Weekend May 15-16 - ManU - OPEN, Liverpool - @West Brom - FA Cup Final - Leicester-Chelsea
Mid Week May 18-20 - ManU - vs Fulham, Liverpool - @Burnley 
Sunday May 23 - ManU - @Wolves, Liverpool - vs Crystal Palace

Actually, I think I see how it can be done: Move West Brom-Liverpool to midweek May 11-13, ManU-Liverpool can be played the weekend of May 15-16

 

[Captain Ron 12793]

15 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

my guess is the prem hopes:

- chelsea & leicester do the business

- pool craters

- and they don't have to play it

That wasn’t going to happen. Just on a pure “integrity” they want all the games played. 
 

I was wondering what happens with Man U-Leicester - that was bumped up to Tuesday the 11th. And ManU has 2 games in 50 hours. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Captain Ron
Add the quotes

[mdmost 42827]

EPL isn't going to get in the way of Liverpool's quest for Europa

[Captain Ron 12793]

Speaking of that:

Don't forget the FA Cup Winner gets entry into the Europa League group stage, however right now that's contested by Leicester-Chelsea, two top 4 squads in Champions League slots, so that (for now) would fall to #6 place. 

The EFL winner normally gets entry into the Europa Conference League - but since City won that, it would falls to the highest place in the EPL that isn't qualified for Europe in another way, currently 7th place.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 hour ago, Captain Ron said:

The EFL winner normally gets entry into the Europa Conference League - but since City won that, it would falls to the highest place in the EPL that isn't qualified for Europe in another way, currently 7th place.

That seems more like a punishment than a reward.

[Captain Ron 12793]

On 5/5/2021 at 2:47 PM, Captain Ron said:

Speaking of that:

Don't forget the FA Cup Winner gets entry into the Europa League group stage, however right now that's contested by Leicester-Chelsea, two top 4 squads in Champions League slots, so that (for now) would fall to #6 place. 

The EFL winner normally gets entry into the Europa Conference League - but since City won that, it would falls to the highest place in the EPL that isn't qualified for Europe in another way, currently 7th place.

 

With Arsenal going out of the Europa League things have probably gotten a little less nail bitey for any team that finishes 4th not named Chelsea. Had Chelsea finished outside the top 4 but won the Champions League along with Arsenal who isn't going to finish in a Champions League slot - the 5 team cap would have resulted in the 4th place team being dropped to Europa.

It's technically possible that Man U could finish in 5th, but HIGHLY unlikely.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

so as not rub salt, posting here instead of their thread.....

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57017649

arsenal's vegas sunrise walk of shame

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

solskjaer: not my problem

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/57025657

 

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

13 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

With Arsenal going out of the Europa League things have probably gotten a little less nail bitey for any team that finishes 4th not named Chelsea. Had Chelsea finished outside the top 4 but won the Champions League along with Arsenal who isn't going to finish in a Champions League slot - the 5 team cap would have resulted in the 4th place team being dropped to Europa.

It's technically possible that Man U could finish in 5th, but HIGHLY unlikely.

i'm still confused at the top.  too many ifs/ors.  scum could crater and finish 5th.  2nd through 8th are playing for X places in the UCL and Y in the EL.

today's match won't sort anything although it's technically massive for both leicester and newcastle.  so it has nils written all over it.

the bottom is not confirmed.  fulham (27) need 4 wins and 1 of 5 teams to crater who are not mathematically safe:

38 palace

37 amex

37 soton

36 burnley

36 newcastle

fulham's great escape (attempt) begins monday hosting burnley.   3 for newcastle today and 3 for burnley on monday relegates fulham.

 

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

friendly ghost

incredible save

[Jive Turkey 12567]

potentially massive result.  Newcastle up 2-0 on Leicester.  Leicester is in third place, sitting on 63 points.

if they don't win this, they may finish with 63 points.  Leicester finishes at Man United, at Chelsea, and hosting Tottenham. 

they might get leaped by 2 teams and lose out on Champions League.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

see article i posted above re: scum have to choose which fixture they play their first XI: leicester or pool

[hayden_horn 11360]

28 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

potentially massive result.  Newcastle up 2-0 on Leicester.  Leicester is in third place, sitting on 63 points.

if they don't win this, they may finish with 63 points.  Leicester finishes at Man United, at Chelsea, and hosting Tottenham. 

they might get leaped by 2 teams and lose out on Champions League.

this is such a bizarro game. leicester really need to win, but newcastle is running shit. i'd love the win to guarantee safety.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

geordies safe

tabletopsyturvey

[Jive Turkey 12567]

West Ham must be feeling pretty good.  finish with Everton, at Brighton, at West Brom, and hosting Southampton.

[hayden_horn 11360]

9 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

geordies safe

tabletopsyturvey

and now it's 4. leicester defending is a dumpster fire

[Buzzrock 14870]

Newcastle has been in good form since getting thumped by Brighton.

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

if solskjaer tanks leicester to beat pool there will be hellish cry throughout the land

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

werner wasted that opp

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

i can't remember ever seeing a panenka saved

[WillUSAF 226]

that was horrible lmao

[InkaUtexas 25486]

Worst penalty ever? 

 

[WillUSAF 226]

it has to be! stupid move

[InkaUtexas 25486]

Very nice build up and way to finish. 1-1 

[sidis 9731]

Beautiful Chelsea build up to get the win there. Clinical. 

Couldn’t tell if sterling was fouled or just pulling a neymar. 

[Hagbard Celine 10749]

chelsski on a fucking roll

[Bartles 769]

Chelsea with two important head to head wins over City recently, they'll be confident going into the CL final. Pep had an odd lineup out there today, and the guys victimized most on the two goals will not likely be on the pitch in Istanbul.

[InkaUtexas 25486]

12 minutes ago, sidis said:

Beautiful Chelsea build up to get the win there. Clinical. 

Couldn’t tell if sterling was fouled or just pulling a neymar. 

Blues fan here, and I think he was fouled.