Ready for Kawhi to be gone.

[Chico_SA 521]

I would have loved for him to be there to support the team.  I imagine his posse could help him do his therapy routines in California.

HIs slightly disturbing Affect is getting old(concerning)  and isn't charming anymore.  He just doesn't seem invested in this team so I would rather him get lost. 

[immortal13 4059]

Isn't there a Spurs thread already?

[Chico_SA 521]

There is!  Awesome catch bud.  You're doing great work guy.  

Back to Kawhi.  It would have been nice for him to show a presence.  I thought he was that kind of guy, but oviously not.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Chico_SA

[immortal13 4059]

Yeah he gone. Sucks to be a Spurs fan

[Patrick Bateman 3932]

 

[tx 3 putt 77426]

all thiis KL bs has to be headed to him asking for a trade ?

he's burned his bridge in SA ?  no way the spurs can trust him in a supermax contract ?

 

someone in his group got in his head

[BigOrange1 6471]

so since this is no longer just contained to the spurs thread i now feel like it's ok to comment on it.  can anyone imagine the amount of shit lebron or kd would be getting nationally if one of them was pulling this?  i can't quite figure out why kawhi is getting such a free pass.

also, i think pop agrees with the op:

 

[cabowabo 4514]

Fuck Kawhi

[coolsax 49]

Definitely one of the more bizarre things you've seen a star player do in awhile.  For whatever reason he's decided he just doesn't want to play for the Spurs anymore but instead of asking for a trade he's just taking his ball and going home and claiming he's still injured on an injury that just doesn't take a whole season to heal.  After pulling this stunt, even if he gets traded, it'll be tough for many teams to trust him enough to give him a max deal.

Not a Spurs fan at all, but KL is fucking them over in a big way.

 

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

I gave him the benefit of the doubt all season.  We didnt know what he was feeling, and it's not out of the ordinary for team medical staff to be wrong and rush a player back. Plus we were told he was working on rehab and trying to get. Back.    But at this point, (the playoffs) he needs to be with the team.  Hes not gonna play so theres no reason to rehab any more.  There's nothing he can do in thr next week that he cant do all summer long. At this point he'd probably get booed if he showed up in SA.

 

[Bevo 13601]

I guess the Spurs lost again last night.

[Jhawk 1075]

I don’t think kawhi is getting a pass at all. Sports radio hosts are going after him for the most part. Other players are hesitant but players back players. There is no chance he is back. 

A few things I’ve heard over the last week on nba radio:

1) look for Boston, philly, and lebron to all make a play for kawhi. 

2) the spurs turning their back will likely taint him a little. If the spurs don’t want a player other teams are typically cautious. Could “devalue” him in a trade but devaluing him means there are 3 assets traded and not 4 or something like that.

3) the blow this is to the spurs won’t be known until after a trade but it could be the beginning of the end of the pop era. He coaches a culture and once manu and TP are gone his culture defining players will all be gone. If there is a time to retire it is naturally once his two guys are done.  

Edited April 17, 2018 by Jhawk

[aggie08 21531]

At this point, I don't even really care about whatever drama there is or isn't between the Spurs and "Kawhi's group." The more pertinent questions are along the lines of: what the hell is it going to take for him to feel 100%? Is surgery even an option? Is it degenerative?

We're talking about a dude who's already had a bit of an injury history, and who never plays unless he feels perfect. And the options this summer are 1) Give him a max contract, or 2) Trade a king's ransom to acquire him. With a quad that still might not be healed (what are a couple more months going to do at this point?). Good luck with that.

[Fred Willard 115]

The 3rd option is do nothing. If Kawhi doesn’t play the 2018-2019 season and make an all nba team he won’t be eligible to get the super max.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

10 minutes ago, Fred Willard said:

The 3rd option is do nothing. If Kawhi doesn’t play the 2018-2019 season and make an all nba team he won’t be eligible to get the super max.

This is my thinking.  Make kawhi prove to the spurs, and to the rest of the league, that he wants to play and that hes healthy enough to play.  If he comes back 100% showing the same ability as in the 16-17 season then he gets the super extension offer from spurs, or if he still wants out they can trade him at the deadline.  His stock is low rignt now.  

[BurdineBandit 815]

28 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

At this point, I don't even really care about whatever drama there is or isn't between the Spurs and "Kawhi's group." The more pertinent questions are along the lines of: what the hell is it going to take for him to feel 100%? Is surgery even an option? Is it degenerative?

We're talking about a dude who's already had a bit of an injury history, and who never plays unless he feels perfect. And the options this summer are 1) Give him a max contract, or 2) Trade a king's ransom to acquire him. With a quad that still might not be healed (what are a couple more months going to do at this point?). Good luck with that.

Interesting strategy that they have withholding all info on this injury and being super-secretive about why he isn't with the team. Good luck getting that huge payday when the teams have to speak to "his team" to find out whether the condition is degenerative. And if they tell a team no and he winds up only playing part of next season too, what does that say about the rest of his career?

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

30 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

At this point, I don't even really care about whatever drama there is or isn't between the Spurs and "Kawhi's group." The more pertinent questions are along the lines of: what the hell is it going to take for him to feel 100%? Is surgery even an option? Is it degenerative?

We're talking about a dude who's already had a bit of an injury history, and who never plays unless he feels perfect. And the options this summer are 1) Give him a max contract, or 2) Trade a king's ransom to acquire him. With a quad that still might not be healed (what are a couple more months going to do at this point?). Good luck with that.

What injury history?  When he rolled his ankle three times in the playoffs and came back from it twice? 

When he had a sore knee like 5 summers ago and skipped a USA bball training camp?  

Hes been pretty durable up to a year ago.  

[kopp0e 1135]

7 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

so since this is no longer just contained to the spurs thread i now feel like it's ok to comment on it.  can anyone imagine the amount of shit lebron or kd would be getting nationally if one of them was pulling this?  i can't quite figure out why kawhi is getting such a free pass.

also, i think pop agrees with the op:

 

Popovich always does his best to answer adversity the right way, I've always enjoyed his candor & demeanor during games as straightforward & professional...

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

50 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

I don’t think kawhi is getting a pass at all. Sports radio hosts are going after him for the most part. Other players are hesitant but players back players. There is no chance he is back. 

A few things I’ve heard over the last week on nba radio:

1) look for Boston, philly, and lebron to all make a play for kawhi. 

2) the spurs turning their back will likely taint him a little. If the spurs don’t want a player other teams are typically cautious. Could “devalue” him in a trade but devaluing him means there are 3 assets traded and not 4 or something like that.

3) the blow this is to the spurs won’t be known until after a trade but it could be the beginning of the end of the pop era. He coaches a culture and once manu and TP are gone his culture defining players will all be gone. If there is a time to retire it is naturally once his two guys are done.  

1)  kawhi for Ben simmons

That will potentially mess up the LeBron to SA fantasy.  But definitely trade him to the east.

2) crappy teams will always take chances.  Contenders won't.

3)  pop does kind of seem like hes mailing it in.  

[aggie08 21531]

20 minutes ago, Fred Willard said:

The 3rd option is do nothing. If Kawhi doesn’t play the 2018-2019 season and make an all nba team he won’t be eligible to get the super max.

Yeah, that would be my move. Make him prove that he's still a Top 5 player, go an entire season relatively injury free, and regain the trust of his teammates. If he misses an All-NBA team, he's probably gone for sure, and the Spurs lose him for nothing...but dodge a bullet on a guy who might not be the same. Even if he makes an All-NBA team, he may still bounce because he felt slighted not getting an extension earlier. But not many players pass up $70M when it comes down to it.

[Fred Willard 115]

The risk with the do nothing approach is he comes back and is mvp, decides the spurs can fuck off and is an UFA a year from now. I think he would still want a sign and trade in that situation though.

[aggie08 21531]

15 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

What injury history?  When he rolled his ankle three times in the playoffs and came back from it twice? 

When he had a sore knee like 5 summers ago and skipped a USA bball training camp?  

Hes been pretty durable up to a year ago.  

Here's only played 70 games twice in 7 years. Part of that is Pop being ultra conservative, obviously, but I think this season officially puts him in "injury risk" territory with Steph, Kyrie, AD, etc.

[aggie08 21531]

20 minutes ago, Fred Willard said:

The risk with the do nothing approach is he comes back and is mvp, decides the spurs can fuck off and is an UFA a year from now. I think he would still want a sign and trade in that situation though.

Do sign and trades still work like that? I thought guys on new contracts have to be on the team that signed them until at least December.

He could opt in for the '19-'20 season, then get traded so SA could at least get something back in return (like CP3 did), but no chance in hell he does that for $21M per.

[Kermit 3158]

IMO he either signs the supermax and water flows under the bridge or he’s getting signed and traded. We’ll know in July. There’s no way his team allows him to play out the season without a new contract. They’ll Kyrie the Spurs.

[Jhawk 1075]

The question with a sign and trade is what do you get in return?  Next year they are on the hook for $131mm, well into luxury tax zone.  If they are going to supermax him and get back a bunch of mediocre players then why go deeper into the tax?  His salary is going to push them another 10mm or so into the salary hole.  Do they want to sign and trade and take on more tax to not be a contender?  Doesn't seem like a very spurs move.  Now if they are getting a Tatum or Jaylen brown or someone else they can build a franchise around then go for it.  But if they are going to get the equivalent of ricky rubio and a bench player then why bother? Just trade him without the supermax.

[Kermit 3158]

He’s not getting traded to a team without an extension.

[Rockethorn1978 6102]

Just wait till after the draft and trade him to whoever gets the top pick. There is no way Kawhi is coming back to the spurs after this, He has been MIA for months with no contact, not on the bench for games, his teammates hate him i'm sure, POP is making remarks about him to the media(rightfully so too). The writing is on the wall and if you think he's coming back it's because you are a homer spurs fan, if you take a step back and this was going on with any other team you would say the same thing that he is gone.

[Jhawk 1075]

If he came back and if he got into a game if it wasn't the selfless spurs, I would predict that he wouldn't get many touches based on how he has abandoned his teammates.  There is no way in hell he is welcomed back in that locker room if that team has any sense of family whatsoever.

[Dutchrudder 11151]

Friend of mine's dad is the accountant for one of the Spurs beat writers. He said the plan is to offer the supermax this off-season, and trade him if he declines. Seems logical, but will be interesting if that happens and he declines.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

2 hours ago, Jhawk said:

The question with a sign and trade is what do you get in return?  Next year they are on the hook for $131mm, well into luxury tax zone.  If they are going to supermax him and get back a bunch of mediocre players then why go deeper into the tax?  His salary is going to push them another 10mm or so into the salary hole.  Do they want to sign and trade and take on more tax to not be a contender?  Doesn't seem like a very spurs move.  Now if they are getting a Tatum or Jaylen brown or someone else they can build a franchise around then go for it.  But if they are going to get the equivalent of ricky rubio and a bench player then why bother? Just trade him without the supermax.

Not sure where you get your numbers.  I see 99 million in contracts, and I think it assumes all players options are opted in.   https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/SAS.html

[krevo 142]

The fact that he's cleared to play by the same doctors who managed TP through a similar injury - yet won't even show up to sit on the bench says a whole lot about his character and his commitment to the Spurs organization.  Anyone willing to disregard both of those things isn't worthy of wearing the silver and black.  Fuck him.  Get some young talent for him and let's move on.  

Edited April 17, 2018 by krevo

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

4 hours ago, Jhawk said:

I don’t think kawhi is getting a pass at all. Sports radio hosts are going after him for the most part. Other players are hesitant but players back players. There is no chance he is back. 

A few things I’ve heard over the last week on nba radio:

1) look for Boston, philly, and lebron to all make a play for kawhi. 

2) the spurs turning their back will likely taint him a little. If the spurs don’t want a player other teams are typically cautious. Could “devalue” him in a trade but devaluing him means there are 3 assets traded and not 4 or something like that.

3) the blow this is to the spurs won’t be known until after a trade but it could be the beginning of the end of the pop era. He coaches a culture and once manu and TP are gone his culture defining players will all be gone. If there is a time to retire it is naturally once his two guys are done.  

I almost posted something similar to part 3 on the Season thread. Tony is a FA, Manu has nothing left to prove, and Pop is 69. Unless we somehow get serious value for Kawhi I think Pop and the boys walk away this summer.

[PilotsError 2320]

Windhorst - being the shit-stirrer that he is - was suggesting he and Lebron could be a package deal for Philly or the Lakers. 
 

[PilotsError 2320]

Teammates are saying they're still texting with him.  He hasn't cut off communication with the other players.

[Amos Moses 795]

Friend of mine's dad is the accountant for one of the Spurs beat writers. He said the plan is to offer the supermax this off-season, and trade him if he declines. Seems logical, but will be interesting if that happens and he declines.

I think I this is prudent, but only if Kawhi chips in for an insurance policy that covers some portion of his salary should his injury prove to be chronic.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

2 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I almost posted something similar to part 3 on the Season thread. Tony is a FA, Manu has nothing left to prove, and Pop is 69. Unless we somehow get serious value for Kawhi I think Pop and the boys walk away this summer.

Yea, but what did pop promise lamarcus last summer to get him to stay?  Obviously things have changed since then, but it would suck for him if all that's left is him, murray and patty mills.  (And pau I guess.)

[Jhawk 1075]

15 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Not sure where you get your numbers.  I see 99 million in contracts, and I think it assumes all players options are opted in.   https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/SAS.html

I was looking at spotrac.com

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/cap/2018/

[Jhawk 1075]

12 minutes ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I almost posted something similar to part 3 on the Season thread. Tony is a FA, Manu has nothing left to prove, and Pop is 69. Unless we somehow get serious value for Kawhi I think Pop and the boys walk away this summer.

The thought part is that the players who are in the game for the money will soon outnumber the players who are in it for team (and money). Once that happens the culture will be dead and probably isn’t coming back. Not in the near future anyway. I just can’t see pop sticking around for 5 more years trying to convince young guys that are skipping college to get paid that winning and team are more important than a max contract. 

I think pop is effectively a dying breed and the game is about to be 100% about money (if it isn’t already).

[hornfan785 562]

The narrative that he hasn't been in contact with anyone or hasn't been on the bench at all this season is false. Patty has said he's been in constant contact with Kawhi, same with Danny Green. The Spurs had their own people that went with him to New York most recently as well. Also, he's been on the bench a lot during the season.

Is there frustration there from the Spurs? Most definitely. But don't act like Kawhi is just chilling in New York and won't talk to the Spurs at all. I think Pop's comment about how the reporter needed to ask Kawhi and his team when he'd be back and not Pop was because he genuinely has no idea because Kawhi doesn't know when he'll be back.

[Lat22 4017]

1 hour ago, krevo said:

The fact that he's cleared to play by the same doctors who managed TP through a similar injury - yet won't even show up to sit on the bench says a whole lot about his character and his commitment to the Spurs organization.  Anyone willing to disregard both of those things isn't worthy of wearing the silver and black.  Fuck him.  Get some young talent for him and let's move on.  

This right here. 

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

I was looking at spotrac.com

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/cap/2018/

Good find, that has much more  information.  From the looks of that, spurs could easily get under the tax by renouncing Tony, or signing him to a reasonable deal (cough, minimum).  Bad news is theres not much room for improvement through free agency.   Trade everyone for draft picks, and hire hinke. 

[Amos Moses 795]

It's not a similar injury.  A complete tear is probably easier to treat than the undefinable injury that is affecting Kawhi.  

I also suspect the Spurs told him to stay away after the distractions from a month or so ago.  

I don't disagree it may be time to trade him.  If he's going to have difficulty fighting through chronic pain to the point he can't be relied upon to be in the lineup, then why even consider offering him the supermax?  If that's going to piss him off, then the Spurs can't willfully stay put and risk losing him for nothing.  

The "whys" of all this are complicated and will probably never see the light of day.  The "what to do" is simple if the Spurs follow a logical progression ... (1)  decide if you want to offer the supermax; and (2) if the answer to (1) is "no thanks" because that salary commitment is too risky given Kawhi's health/behavior/attitude toward the team, trade him for the best package of young talent and picks that can be extracted.  In the meantime, try to take all actions that will not dilute the ability to pick (1) or (2).

[d2o 1602]

Just a FYI.   You cannot do a S&T using the supermax.   

A designated veteran extension can only be signed from the end of the July Moratorium through the last day before the start of the regular season. A player who signs a designated veteran contract or extension can't be traded for one year after he is signed.

Edited April 17, 2018 by d2o

[Kermit 3158]

8 minutes ago, d2o said:

Just a FYI.   You cannot do a S&T using the supermax.   

A designated veteran extension can only be signed from the end of the July Moratorium through the last day before the start of the regular season. A player who signs a designated veteran contract or extension can't be traded for one year after he is signed.

Good to know.

[GotThatFire 166]

Kawhi wants to be a doctor. Dude didn't even want to play basketball

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Just a FYI.   You cannot do a S&T using the supermax.   

A designated veteran extension can only be signed from the end of the July Moratorium through the last day before the start of the regular season. A player who signs a designated veteran contract or extension can't be traded for one year after he is signed.

That's right... Chris Paul did not technically get a supermax deal.  He is technically a free agent at the end of this year and will then sign a supermax if offered.  Crazy that the guy the supermax was basically tailored for isn't even in that set up at this point.

Here is a great article on the supermax and its implications across the league:

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/30/nba-free-agency-2017-supermax-clippers-rockets-chris-paul-russell-westbrook

[Patrick Bateman 3932]

7 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

That's right... Chris Paul did not technically get a supermax deal.  He is technically a free agent at the end of this year and will then sign a supermax if offered.  Crazy that the guy the supermax was basically tailored for isn't even in that set up at this point.

Here is a great article on the supermax and its implications across the league:

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/30/nba-free-agency-2017-supermax-clippers-rockets-chris-paul-russell-westbrook

CP3 is not eligible for the supermax...... He did have his Bird rights retained so he'll still make a shit load.

[Jhawk 1075]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Just a FYI.   You cannot do a S&T using the supermax.   

A designated veteran extension can only be signed from the end of the July Moratorium through the last day before the start of the regular season. A player who signs a designated veteran contract or extension can't be traded for one year after he is signed.

Do you think this fetches more or less bounty for Kawhi?  I think they get more potential out of not having to pay a supermax.  A Kawhi deal needs $18mm to match salaries at this point. If they trade him to a place where he might want to go then they could get a good young guy (a jaylen brown type) and a few great picks out of him.  Here is a list of expiring contracts for 2019 (http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2019/).  There is some good short term contributors in the $10mm-$12mm range.  If they could get a young guy like brown and a solid expiring contract with a couple of good picks then I think the spurs would jump at moving Kawhi to a contender (especially in the east). Then let a team like boston deal with resigning him via Bird rights like what was done with CP3

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

3 hours ago, Jhawk said:

I was looking at spotrac.com

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs/cap/2018/

Also, that link shows a "trade kicker".  (15%)  Not sure how that bonus affects the salary cap, or if kawhi would waive it.

[d2o 1602]

26 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

CP3 is not eligible for the supermax...... He did have his Bird rights retained so he'll still make a shit load.

Well, no and yes.  I hate the designations as they tend to skew people's thinking.   All max contracts are not the same.   Its all based on yrs of service.   The "supermax" designation just means that a player coming off of his rookie deal up to 9 yrs of experience can get a "max" salary equal to between 25% up to 35% of the cap based on yrs of experience and if they meet the specified criteria AND they are re-signing with the team that he was currently under contract with.   So he isn't eligible for the "supermax"

Type	Qualifications	Maximum Salary	Maximum Years
Designated Rookie Extension	Entering 4th season of Rookie Scale Contract; designated by team	25% of cap (30% if meets 5th Year 30% Max Criteria)	6 (including remaining year on current contract)
Free Agent Contract after Rookie Scale Contract	Finished Rookie Scale Contract, or 2nd round pick or undrafted player with 4 years of service; designated by team	25% of cap (30% if meets 5th Year 30% Max Criteria)	5
Designated Veteran Extension	7 or 8 years of service when extension signed; 1 or 2 years remaining on contract; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria3	35% of cap	6 (including remaining years on current contract)
Designated Veteran Contract	8 or 9 years of service; with same team continuously (unless traded during first four years in the league); meets Designated Veteran Player 35% Max Criteria	35% of cap	5

 

However, Paul has 11 yrs experience and consequently is eligible for a "regular" max deal for a player with his experience.   That would be at a rate equal to.......35% of the salary cap.    So it won't be considered the designated player exception (or supermax) but the result is the same, a contract with an annual salary equal to 35% of the cap.

Here are the league-wide maximum salaries for the first season of a new contract:

Years in NBA1	Defined maximum salary	2017-18
0 - 6	25% of cap	$24,773,250
7 - 9	30% of cap	$29,727,900
10+	35% of cap	$34,682,550

Edited April 17, 2018 by d2o