NY AG seeks to dissolve NRA

[bolverk 29780]

17 minutes ago, luke duke said:

 

This country would have been much better off if they had stuck to their original mission of hunter education, gun safety classes and wildlife conservation.

 

I don't necessarily disagree, but this thread isn't meant to serve as a place to discuss their mission. If you want to talk about that, then there's a place for you in the CR in the meantime. 

Again, this thread only proposes that we should be able to have a common conversation about the alleged criminal activities that are cited by the AG.

[Bevo 13609]

When this becomes major news, I imagine that the NRA will be able to raise tons of money. "NRA kicked out of NY" will bring in a plethora of new donors.

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, luke duke said:

 

This country would have been much better off if they had stuck to their original mission of hunter education, gun safety classes and wildlife conservation.

 

agreed.

There are significant reasons many pro-gun folks are not members.

[washparkhorn 9939]

9 hours ago, bolverk said:

he is accused of using charitable funds for personal gain

Selective enforcement is a violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. Are similarly situated organizations treated the same or is this punishment for free speech? 

I have no use for many so-called non-profits. I own weapons. Never been a member of the NRA. Don't hunt. 12 gauge and varmint revolver owner. NRA living or dying does not affect me.

Punishing free speech is not copacetic to me, but your mileage may vary - which is your free speech and something I would protect as well. 

The NRA was a money making machine. They are not alone in that distinction among "non-profits." They all need to "do better."

[elfenix 34365]

ollie north quit last year because upper management was skimming too much.  seems like a signal to me.

[washparkhorn 9939]

Looks like "non-profit" risk profiles need to be updated. 

[Armybrat 40942]

GOA.

[South Austin 52667]

9 hours ago, Bevo said:

When this becomes major news, I imagine that the NRA will be able to raise tons of money. "NRA kicked out of NY" will bring in a plethora of new donors.

Jefe, what is a plethora?

[TwiceHorn 31647]

11 hours ago, luke duke said:

 

This country would have been much better off if they had stuck to their original mission of hunter education, gun safety classes and wildlife conservation.

 

I guess it's this that makes me think the "dissolution" angle is political overkill.

Until LaPierre, the NRA was a fairly benign organization for more than a century.  It is not inherently corrupt, it has been corrupted.

Dissolution does not prevent the NRA from re-forming elsewhere, either as a relatively benign shooting sports organization or a malignant and corrupt right wing PAC as it currently seems to be.

I might think a receivership, or action taken to remove all corrupting influences from the organization might be a less politically volatile (that works both ways) move.

Also, the veiled "pre-announcement" of the lawsuit makes it clear that this is as much or more political theater as legitimate law enforcement.  

Edited August 7, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Doc Reeves 6434]

24 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I guess it's this that makes me think the "dissolution" angle is political overkill.

Until LaPierre, the NRA was a fairly benign organization for more than a century.  It is not inherently corrupt, it has been corrupted.

Dissolution does not prevent the NRA from re-forming elsewhere, either as a relatively benign shooting sports organization or a malignant and corrupt right wing PAC as it currently seems to be.

I might think a receivership, or action taken to remove all corrupting influences from the organization might be a less politically volatile (that works both ways) move.

Also, the veiled "pre-announcement" of the lawsuit makes it clear that this is as much or more political theater as legitimate law enforcement.  

On its face I agree. This does sound like it could have issues where the organization itself has been groomed to be a fraudulent entity to the point that disbanding/reforming could be the most thorough way to dissolve all dealings and then force the new org to re-enter into those deals under more transparent circumstances. 

[TwiceHorn 31647]

As a lawdog, I tend to pretty violently dislike publicizing your own lawsuit.  If it is a newsworthy lawsuit, the publicity will come.

I might make an exception for the odd press release on the day you file the lawsuit to stem inquiries, but that has to be accompanied by a "no further comment."

Announcing something the day before you do it is bad juju, imo.

That's why this whole thing strikes me funny or wrong.

[kevwun 15938]

If the smoke about the NRA funneling foreign money to candidates is true, that by itself is enough to warrant dissolution.  It's a criminal organization and not a non-profit if all of these things are true.  A slap on the wrist isn't going to cut it.

Edited August 7, 2020 by kevwun

[South Austin 52667]

The worst that happens is that the NRA somehow gets dissolved, but the political movement behind gun rights is so strong that they'll just re-organize under a new 501(c)(3) and call themselves something like the National Gun Association. 

[DanRydell 799]

Selective enforcement is a violation of the equal protection clause of the Constitution. Are similarly situated organizations treated the same or is this punishment for free speech? 
I have no use for many so-called non-profits. I own weapons. Never been a member of the NRA. Don't hunt. 12 gauge and varmint revolver owner. NRA living or dying does not affect me.
Punishing free speech is not copacetic to me, but your mileage may vary - which is your free speech and something I would protect as well. 
The NRA was a money making machine. They are not alone in that distinction among "non-profits." They all need to "do better."

I’m not aware of any other non-profits whose President blew the whistle on them like this so unless you are then no, there aren’t any similarly situated organizations to single them out from.

[Hank Scorpio 17731]

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

As a lawdog, I tend to pretty violently dislike publicizing your own lawsuit.  If it is a newsworthy lawsuit, the publicity will come.

I might make an exception for the odd press release on the day you file the lawsuit to stem inquiries, but that has to be accompanied by a "no further comment."

Announcing something the day before you do it is bad juju, imo.

That's why this whole thing strikes me funny or wrong.

Yeah, can you imagine if the law and law enforcement were political?

[Brothahorn 10087]

When this becomes major news, I imagine that the NRA will be able to raise tons of money. "NRA kicked out of NY" will bring in a plethora of new donors.

Wayne could not have planned it any better if he tried.

[TwiceHorn 31647]

 

3 minutes ago, Hank Scorpio said:

Yeah, can you imagine if the law and law enforcement were political?

#bothsides

[washparkhorn 9939]

12 minutes ago, DanRydell said:

I’m not aware of any other non-profits whose President blew the whistle on them like this so unless you are then no, there aren’t any similarly situated organizations to single them out from.

I don't believe a non-profit whistleblower must also be the President of the organization.  What would be the purpose of such such a policy?

Non-profit misuse of funds is rampant in the US. Selective enforcement remains unconstitutional under Equal Protection analysis. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by washparkhorn

[washparkhorn 9939]

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

Wayne could not have planned it any better if he tried.

No doubt. 

Out of rep - you are owed a hook 'em

. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by washparkhorn

[Brothahorn 10087]

GOA.

SAF

[DanRydell 799]

I don't believe a non-profit whistleblower must also be the President of the organization.  What would be the purpose of such such a policy?
Non-profit misuse of funds is rampant in the US. Selective enforcement remains unconstitutional under Equal Protection analysis. 

Is that dumbass shit really your response? Christ I’d forgotten what an insufferable shit you are.

[washparkhorn 9939]

3 minutes ago, Brothahorn said:

SAF

PBNJ

 

[washparkhorn 9939]

1 minute ago, DanRydell said:

Is that dumbass shit really your response? Christ I’d forgotten what an insufferable shit you are.

I was kind to your idoicy.

[TwiceHorn 31647]

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

I don't believe a non-profit whistleblower must also be the President of the organization.  What would be the purpose of such such a policy?

Non-profit misuse of funds is rampant in the US. Selective enforcement remains unconstitutional under Equal Protection analysis. 

It's a valid point.  The IRS can't get out of its own way as a general proposition concerning "errant" taxpayers.  Add in the politics of auditing and investigating various charities and churches and fuggedaboutit.

Maybe this kind of thing from state authorities is the best way to go about it, assuming the IRS can use the fact-findings to revoke exemptions, etc.

And, of course, you can't extract politics from law enforcement, but I really prefer that it be minimized, at least on the surface.  I mean, we're all for the rule of law, right?  Let lawlessness and prosecution of same speak for itself.

[Brothahorn 10087]

14 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

PBNJ

 

I'll admit my prejudice. When I saw the title and glimpsed the artist, I thought this was an ode to PeanutButterJelly sammiches.

 

Heard worse from 'award winning' artists.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Brothahorn

[washparkhorn 9939]

5 hours ago, DanRydell said:

Is that dumbass shit really your response? Christ I’d forgotten what an insufferable shit you are.

 

https://nonprofitquarterly.org/nearly-10000-501c4s-failed-to-meet-reporting-rules-says-us-treasury/

January 9, 2020; Bloomberg

The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA), a body created to provide oversight of the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), recently released a report about the ability of the IRS to fulfill its oversight of the nonprofit sector, focusing specifically on 501c4 “social welfare” organizations. The report found at least 9,774 of these organizations have failed to meet their legally obligated reporting requirements. The report is concerning in a number of different ways, and the findings have significant implications for the future of the sector and our democratic processes. . . . 

[tantric superman 4668]

Does seem like pointless overreach. Make them pay for their financial malfeasance.  Look for other non-profits who engage in financial malfeasance and hold them accountable as well.

Edited August 8, 2020 by tantric superman

[Armybrat 40942]

I think WLP’s ambition is to retire to Savile Row. 
 

{cue Curly Bill gif}

[Homercles 10206]

16 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

I was kind to your  idoicy.

Idoicy?

[Huckleberry 33166]

I mean I agree that selective enforcement is wrong, but does anyone have an example of the NY AG being handed this type of illegal behavior on a platter and not pursuing it? 

[washparkhorn 9939]

12 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I mean I agree that selective enforcement is wrong, but does anyone have an example of the NY AG being handed this type of illegal behavior on a platter and not pursuing it? 

If I am handling the defense, I am checking on the 10,000 nonprofits not complying with Disclosure requirements. 
 

They should all be in compliance or lose their 501(c)(4) status. 

[Huckleberry 33166]

So your defense strategy is that other people break the law? 

I don't think you're a defense attorney. Certainly not a good one. 

[kevwun 15938]

I would like some of you to specify when it's ok to dissolve a non-profit.  If the NRA didn't cross that line, exactly where is it?

[bernorange 8367]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:22 AM, Armybrat said:

GOA.

and SAF.org

~~~

I posted this in the other thread (I hadn't seen this one yet):

Quote

...
Against that background, it is important to understand that there are at least three things going on with the New York attorney general’s attempt to have the National Rifle Association legally dissolved: The first of those things is a political jihad that may or may not end with the NRA’s having its charter revoked but that certainly will subject it to ruinous litigation costs and disruption, a transparent effort to sideline it before the November election; the second is a longer-term effort to discredit the NRA by appealing to the same kind of envy-based politics that were deployed against Mrs. Dole all those years ago; the third, currently being treated almost as an afterthought, is a legitimate investigation into potential financial wrongdoing at the NRA, of which there is more than a whiff.

NRA insiders have long complained about a culture of self-dealing and financial shenanigans at the organization, and there is much that looks fishy. If it is true that LaPierre, the NRA’s CEO, did in fact use another company to pass on personal expenses to the NRA while camouflaging that compensation from the organization and the IRS, then he would be very likely to be found guilty of a number of state and federal felonies. That is a real charge.
...
Some of the other accusations are a good deal less convincing: For example, LaPierre apparently spent a lot of money on car services and private security, but there isn’t anything inherently wrong with that. (Indeed, the private security seems prudent.) If the NRA wants to provide its executives with those services, then that is between the NRA, its board, and its membership. Unless there is some aggravating circumstance, that simply is not a matter for the New York attorney general.
...

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/08/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-national-rifle-association/

 

 

[bernorange 8367]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:41 AM, TwiceHorn said:

As a lawdog, I tend to pretty violently dislike publicizing your own lawsuit.  If it is a newsworthy lawsuit, the publicity will come.  ...

Is it about publicity, or setting/controlling a narrative?

[bolverk 29780]

What are other examples of national non-profits being forced to dissolve? I tried to google the answer but didn't come up with anything other than various examples of instructions on how to shut down one.

[BradInATX 9208]

This seems political and over-reaching to me. IMO this type of stuff is not productive. Go after the individuals who broke the law and hit them with every bit of force that our judicial system has to offer - absolutely. If it means everyone in the organization besides the receptionist, so be it. But dissolving an actual organization seems out of line IMO. Although I'm sure one of our lawyers can show historical precedent; I'm probably a bit out of my depth on it. But it just feels political and wrongheaded. Put everyone who broke the law in jail, and let the organization either rebuild within the boundaries of the law or fail on its own. 

Said as someone who thinks the NRA is a corrupt, hack job of an organization. I'd probably drink a celebratory beer if their organization fell apart. But this ain't it, dawg.

Edited August 10, 2020 by BradInATX

[TwiceHorn 31647]

1 hour ago, BradInATX said:

This seems political and over-reaching to me. IMO this type of stuff is not productive. Go after the individuals who broke the law and hit them with every bit of force that our judicial system has to offer - absolutely. If it means everyone in the organization besides the receptionist, so be it. But dissolving an actual organization seems out of line IMO. Although I'm sure one of our lawyers can show historical precedent; I'm probably a bit out of my depth on it. But it just feels political and wrongheaded. Put everyone who broke the law in jail, and let the organization either rebuild within the boundaries of the law or fail on its own. 

Said as someone who thinks the NRA is a corrupt, hack job of an organization. I'd probably drink a celebratory beer if their organization fell apart. But this ain't it, dawg.

This is what I think.  

Dissolving the corporation makes that particular corporation go away, yes indeed.  But it isn't much of a barrier to it reforming somewhere else.  It does put a stink on the organization, but that stink is there whether the corporation dissolves or not.

And, as far as I know, other than administratively "dissolving" corporations for failure to pay franchise tax, which happens all the time, I don't think this is very common at all.  One reason is that it can be very harmful to the shareholders who are innocent, and to creditors of the corporation, because the corporation is being forcibly shut down and the creditors paid off with whatever assets the corporation holds rather than over time and the shareholders equity (not really applicable in the case of a non-profit) driven to zero.  There are ways to avoid that, but they are clumsy and expensive (e.g. receivership).

Edited August 10, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31647]

2 hours ago, bernorange said:

Is it about publicity, or setting/controlling a narrative?

Well, really, the only narrative that should be controlled is the one in the courtroom and court rules are set up, imperfectly, to try to minimize the influence of publicity.  As far as courtroom results, I think "trying your case in the press" benefits defendants more than plaintiffs or prosecutions.

In this particular case, I think it's the NY AG aggrandizing herself.  But I am a walk softly and carry a big stick type.

Also, I think it may be borderline unethical to file and publicize a lawsuit in order to obtain something you can't obtain in the lawsuit.  Which is not the case here, but if one were thinking along the lines of using a lawsuit and attendant publicity/narrative to obtain an extrajudicial result only.

Edited August 10, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[DanRydell 799]

Well, really, the only narrative that should be controlled is the one in the courtroom and court rules are set up, imperfectly, to try to minimize the influence of publicity.  As far as courtroom results, I think "trying your case in the press" benefits defendants more than plaintiffs or prosecutions.
In this particular case, I think it's the NY AG aggrandizing herself.  But I am a walk softly and carry a big stick type.
Also, I think it may be borderline unethical to file and publicize a lawsuit in order to obtain something you can't obtain in the lawsuit.  Which is not the case here, but if one were thinking along the lines of using a lawsuit and attendant publicity/narrative to obtain an extrajudicial result only.

It’s an elected office. Self-aggrandizing is part of the gig.

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

nevermind. somebody beat me to it

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by High Plains Drifter

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

On 8/10/2020 at 10:48 AM, bolverk said:

What are other examples of national non-profits being forced to dissolve? I tried to google the answer but didn't come up with anything other than various examples of instructions on how to shut down one.

 

trump foundation? (or whatever it was called)

 

[Buzzrock 15014]

What are other examples of national non-profits being forced to dissolve? I tried to google the answer but didn't come up with anything other than various examples of instructions on how to shut down one.

Catholic Church? Oh wait no that’s still around.