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WWII, Nazis Communists and other stuff

BabaYaga

By BabaYaga
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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

*me, walking through Auschwitz*

"Man, these guys were some fucking douche bags!"

 

Walk thru the Siberian Gulags,, and see the results of 20 million murdered by their own communist, dictator "uncle".  You trying to make the USSR out to be anything other than a murderous, genocidal, rogue state is funny.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry, what's your point about what the USSR did in WWII ?

I said the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis. Which... they did. The vast majority (70-80%) of Hitler's forces were concentrated on the Eastern Front contending with the Soviet army. Without them, Hitler easily defends the Western Front from the UK/US.

It's just history, man, I'm sorry if that triggers and offends your emotions. Sorry your history education was so poor and jingoistic that this hurts your feelings as a grown adult man.

Quote

They were our ally only in we were both fighting a rogue state that directly attacked them, and our allies.

OK

Quote

 Stain was a mass murdering, psychopath no better than Hitler.  The USSRs' game plan was world domination.... still is, it's just not called the USSR any more.

 

The USSR was bad. Nazi Germany was far worse.

Jesus Christ, people

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Walk thru the Siberian Gulags,, and see the results of 20 million murdered by their own communist, dictator "uncle". 

When did I call him "uncle"? When did I even express admiration for him?

What does Stalin and the Soviet Union have to do with the topic of this thread?

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15202

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8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

*me, walking through Auschwitz*

"Man, these guys were some fucking douche bags!"

 

"me walking through the Gulags"

"Man, these guys were some fucking douche bags also!"  But at least they hate them some Nazis....

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Guest Lobo

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25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Yes, the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis. The Communists not only were Hitler's greatest internal enemies, it was the communist Soviet Union that took on the massive Nazi war machine in the Eastern Front, the largest theater of war in human history. The US tragically lost 400k troops in WWII and the Soviet Union sacrificed nearly 17M people, or 15% of its population, to defeat Hitler.

Just some facts. I know our educational system and society at large wants to pretend we did it ourselves, but that's a lie. :)

 

The Soviet Union HELPED defeat the Nazis.  The Communists were not Hitler's greatest internal enemies.  Yes, the Communist USSR took on the massive Nazi war marching in the Eastern front, agreed, and it was the largest theater of LAND war in human history.  Although sea and air theaters of war involve fewer people, they are just as significant, if not more.  How many people you got killed from your own military is not a metric used by any respected military strategist.  Yes, they lost ~7x the number of people the other Allies did put together in the Eurasian campaign, but that doesn't mean they did anything better. 

Their tactical ineptitude cost millions of lives that didn't need to be lost.  And our educational system does teach about the USSR during WWII, it insists upon it ad nauseam.  For 75 years, much of the world has been trying to reframe Stalin and his military leadership during WWII (and the aftermath)...and they can't fucking do it because it horribly lacking.  We didn't pretend we did it ourselves.  Of course there was propaganda during the Cold War, but at our highest levels of military schooling...it's been proven out time and time again (by both us and Soviet sympathizers)...you don't study the USSR victory in the Eastern Front to see what to do with conventional land warfare...you study it to see what not to do.  

You're romancing the regime, and yes---without them...the Continent probably falls or at least takes us another 2 years and 200,000 Americans to clear.  There is so much of why the Reich fell at the end, and so little of it has to do with Soviet military prowess.  Next, let's do Japan and what Russia was doing there at the end.  And then bad_teammate...for such a continental man...you continuously ignore how the Germans were also defeated by these little-known militaries from Great Britain, Poland, Australia, Norway, Greece, Netherlands, India, and last but certainly not least---Canada.  The army with the most dead guys doesn't get like a special award or anything.  

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15202

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4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I think some very interesting conversation about the Soviet Union could be had in a relevant thread. This thread is supposed to be about the protests/riots in America this summer. :)

Maybe start a different thread for this irrelevant sidetrack. :)

You mean riots/protests lead my leaders professing the same Marxist ideology as the former Soviet Union and employing many of their same tactics?  Yeah, it's a big fucking mystery?  

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17420

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20 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry, what's your point about what the USSR did in WWII ?  They were our ally only in we were both fighting a rogue state that directly attacked them, and our allies.  Stain was a mass murdering, psychopath no better than Hitler.  The USSRs' game plan was world domination.... still is, it's just not called the USSR any more.

@Onboard 2.0 see below for the post that started this discussion:

6 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

A Communist trying to take the high ground against Nazis.  The irony certainly is amusing.  

This isn't ironic. In fact, as @bad_teammate points out, communists were crucial to the defeat of the Nazis, so if anything it is historically consistent. I suppose you could make an argument that it is hypocritical, but I think that is a bit of stretch too. 

I know y'all love your memes and claimed victim-hood, but it would really do y'all good to take a deep breath and perform just the tiniest bit of critical thinking and introspection rather than jumping up and down every time your assertions are even slightly challenged. 

 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I said the Soviet Union defeated the Nazis. Which... they did. The vast majority (70-80%) of Hitler's forces were concentrated on the Eastern Front contending with the Soviet army. Without them, Hitler easily defends the Western Front from the UK/US.

It's just history, man, I'm sorry if that triggers and offends your emotions. Sorry your history education was so poor and jingoistic that this hurts your feelings as a grown adult man.

OK

 

The USSR was bad. Nazi Germany was far worse.

Jesus Christ, people

When did I call him "uncle"? When did I even express admiration for him?

What does Stalin and the Soviet Union have to do with the topic of this thread?

Everyone one of your posts has been written to make it seem like the USSR was something  they were not.  

Uncle Joe, it's his moniker... so much for your knowledge of history.  I'll put my general knowledge of world history up against yours any day. Pick a topic brah.....

The Soviet Union killed 20 million of its own citizens. Mao very probably killed more. Nazi Germany caused WWII for damn sure, but make no mistake all 3 regimes are in a 3 way tie in many categories of worst regimes, and political systems in history.. 

You aren't triggering anything with me regarding the USSR, and their defeat of Hitler. Yes they played a big part, they sure as hell didn't defeat them single handedly. Hitler defeated himself in 42 when he began fighting a multi front war. He split his forces in 3 locations Africa, Europe, and Eurasia (Russia).  

The USSR was basically fighting a single front war, and relied on tons of material from the US. (fighting a war on 2 fronts as well).  You can say the USSR finally beat a beleaguered Nazi Germany, but you aren't telling the entire story.  

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15202

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

This is supposed to be about this country in 2020 not 75 years ago.

I know.  How about we look at the current leadership today of a movement in 2020 and the tactics currently being employed and notice hey, that's the same fucking shit from 75 years ago and it didn't work them either?  Hmmmmmmm....

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Guest Lobo

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Well, the 75th anniversary of VJ-day is coming up next week.  We could split off a separate thread for that.  After all, China suffered nearly 10mm casualties, between civilians and military personnel so that means they are awesome at war and the U.S. didn't do it all themselves.  Maybe the Free French in exile helped us with that one.  

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

I know.  How about we look at the current leadership today of a movement in 2020 and the tactics currently being employed and notice hey, that's the same fucking shit from 75 years ago and it didn't work them either?  Hmmmmmmm....

It will be different this time because of their big brains and huge amount of feels.

...so shut up and write the check

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Onboard 2.0

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3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

@Onboard 2.0 see below for the post that started this discussion:

This isn't ironic. In fact, as @bad_teammate points out, communists were crucial to the defeat of the Nazis, so if anything it is historically consistent. I suppose you could make an argument it is hypocritical, but I think that is a bit of stretch too. 

I know y'all love your memes and claimed victim-hood, but it would really do y'all good to take a deep breath and perform just the tiniest bit of critical thinking and introspection rather than jumping up and down every time your assertions are even slightly challenged. 

 

One more poster trying to make some bizarre point about the USSR, and their defeat of Hitler ? They were attacked by Hitler, and did what any normal country would do, they defended themselves, and used superior numbers to defeat an army fighting a multi front war, led by a man with no military strategic,  experience.

The USSR would have gladly sat out WWII, and would have entered only when it was strategically advantageous to do so given the opportunity. The whole ANTIFA is crusading against Nazis is so much BS. They crusade against anyone who doesn't follow their belief system in lock step (they're modern day brown shirts).  We don't need ANTIFA fighting Nazis for us.

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Dahobbs

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

One more poster trying to make some bizarre point about the USSR, and their defeat of Hitler ? They were attacked by Hitler, and did what any normal country would do, they defended themselves, and used superior numbers to defeat an army fighting a multi front war, led by a man with no military strategic,  experience.

The USSR would have gladly sat out WWII, and would have entered only when it was strategically advantageous to do so given the opportunity. The whole ANTIFA is crusading against Nazis is so much BS. They crusade against anyone who doesn't follow their belief system in lock step (they're modern day brown shirts).  We don't need ANTIFA fighting Nazis for us.

What does any of that have to do with anything? I don't care what the Soviet Union's motivations were, the fact is that its contributions were critical to the defeat of Nazi Germany. 

Also, everyone should be fighting Nazis, you included. I have no idea why anyone would take issue with someone else fighting Nazis. I get not liking Antifa's tactics or not liking Antifa because you believe they are doing something other than fighting Nazis (e.g., harassing people having nothing to do with Nazism or fascism). But I can't comprehend having an issue with someone who is fighting actual Nazis. That's just bizarre. 

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

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1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

What does any of that have to do with anything? I don't care what the Soviet Union's motivations were, the fact is that its contributions were critical to the defeat of Nazi Germany. 

Also, everyone should be fighting Nazis, you included. I have no idea why anyone would take issue with someone else fighting Nazis. I get not liking Antifa's tactics or not liking Antifa because you believe they are doing something other than fighting Nazis (e.g., harassing people having nothing to do with Nazism or fascism). But I can't comprehend having an issue with someone who is fighting actual Nazis. That's just bizarre. 

No one is. Full stop.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No one is . . . what? Fighting Nazis or having an issue with people fighting actual Nazis? @Onboard 2.0 seems to have an issue with the latter based on his last post.

I have an issue with any vigilante group trying to do anything like that. We don't need Nazi fighters here in America, but you go ahead and try to argue that.  It'll be fun to watch.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26437

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10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Also, everyone should be fighting Nazis, you included

Would you also say "Everyone should be fighting socialists?" We don't "fight" people for their views in America (as fucked up as the Nazi's may be). We are a nation of laws.If they break the law, they should be arrested and prosecuted. 

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Cajun

Cajun 11675

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

Um.. and this might seem like a stupid question, but are there people unaware of the specific associations Netflix has with um, certain political figures? I mean, it's not like they have kept it low key or tried to hide it for crying out loud.

Their donations to a certain, um, yeah, you know, are off the charts and are not some well hidden secret.

But, hey, PROOF POSITIVE BABY!!!

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Onboard 2.0

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11 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What does any of that have to do with anything? I don't care what the Soviet Union's motivations were, the fact is that its contributions were critical to the defeat of Nazi Germany. 

Also, everyone should be fighting Nazis, you included. I have no idea why anyone would take issue with someone else fighting Nazis. I get not liking Antifa's tactics or not liking Antifa because you believe they are doing something other than fighting Nazis (e.g., harassing people having nothing to do with Nazism or fascism). But I can't comprehend having an issue with someone who is fighting actual Nazis. That's just bizarre. 

 I was responding to BTs take that the USSR was somehow the reason Germany was defeated.  

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BabaYaga

BabaYaga 15202

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Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have an issue with any vigilante group trying to do anything like that. We don't need Nazi fighters here in America, but you go ahead and try to argue that.  It'll be fun to watch.

Nor do are we giving a pass for a certain ideology responsible for the deaths of millions just because they are hiding under the auspices of hating Nazis.  This idiotic notion that Communists, Socialists, and Marxists get a pass because of Nazis is something a 5yr old would come up with.  

"yeah, our ideology is responsible for close to a 100M global deaths, but man, those Nazis fucking suck"

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

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7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have an issue with any vigilante group trying to do anything like that. We don't need Nazi fighters here in America, but you go ahead and try to argue that.  It'll be fun to watch.

That's a HARD disagree, my man.

Nazis, even here in America, kill people. It's an actual, real deadly threat to American lives today. Not destroyed property or laser pointers or chanting, but the murder of human beings.

We 100% need people fighting Nazis. If someone goes out in the street with Nazis shit on, they need to be confronted forcefully. No one should injure or kill an American Nazi, but screaming in their faces and pouring water on their heads is the least of what Nazis deserve. Hound them day and night. I'm actually kind of surprised to making life intolerable for Nazis is a controversial position.

----------------

I will happily discuss WWII in a relevant thread. I'm not talking about it anymore here. Once again, I apologize for taking the bait and extending that off-topic derail. :)

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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Just now, BabaYaga said:

Nor do are we giving a pass for a certain ideology responsible for the deaths of millions just because they are hiding under the auspices of hating Nazis.  This idiotic notion that Communists, Socialists, and Marxists get a pass because of Nazis is something a 5yr old would come up with.  

"yeah, our ideology is responsible for close to a 100M global deaths, but man, those Nazis fucking suck"

They're just jealous of their great looking uniforms...  Those Mao jackets sucked ass.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

That's a HARD disagree, my man.

Nazis, even here in America, kill people. It's an actual, real deadly threat to American lives today. Not destroyed property or laser pointers or chanting, but the murder of human beings.

We 100% need people fighting Nazis. If someone goes out in the street with Nazis shit on, they need to be confronted forcefully. No one should injure or kill an American Nazi, but screaming in their faces and pouring water on their heads is the least of what Nazis deserve. Hound them day and night. I'm actually kind of surprised to making life intolerable for Nazis is a controversial position.

----------------

I will happily discuss WWII in a relevant thread. I'm not talking about it anymore here. Once again, I apologize for taking the bait and extending that off-topic derail. :)

We have this thing called law enforcement, and the FBI to handle Nazis. 

Start a WWII thread and I'll gladly patriciate, and enjoy hearing other posters takes on that particular world party.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

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7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Would you also say "Everyone should be fighting socialists?" We don't "fight" people for their views in America (as fucked up as the Nazi's may be). We are a nation of laws.If they break the law, they should be arrested and prosecuted. 

This, this, a fucking thousand times this. Wish I could rep it more.

 

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Dahobbs

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10 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Would you also say "Everyone should be fighting socialists?" We don't "fight" people for their views in America (as fucked up as the Nazi's may be). We are a nation of laws.If they break the law, they should be arrested and prosecuted. 

We fight against people for their views all the damn time. That's what we do. That's what y'all have been doing this whole thread. "Fight" is not limited to physical altercation, and I was not using in that limited sense. If you are, then I agree, physical altercations should be limited in accordance with the law. 

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Hate

Hate 20102

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Jesus fucking Christ. The amount of mental gymnastics a couple of posters will go through to make themselves feel bright and woke is ridiculous. You hit “reply” on your post and sit back and think you did this

dc6b36772c057a00686ff2bf17b3000d.gif

But you really did this

170999fe34c3602929a568626f6d3c24.gif

Give it a fucking rest.

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Incredulity

Incredulity 11532

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Just now, Dahobbs said:

We fight against people for their views all the damn time. That's what we do. That's what y'all have been doing this whole thread. "Fight" is not limited to physical altercation, and I was not using in that limited sense. If you are, then I agree, physical altercations should be limited in accordance with the law. 

Give it a rest.  You know damn fucking well he was referring to physical violence.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17420

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2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Give it a rest.  You know damn fucking well he was referring to physical violence.

Yeah, but I wasn't. He responded to me, accordingly I clarified the intent of my post. 

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Stannis

Stannis 232

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The Communist system had little, if anything, to do with defeating the Axis Powers on the Eastern Front.  The Germans (and their vassal allies like Romania, Italy, Finland, and Hungary) were defeated by the overwhelming weight of numbers and the massive land-mass of the Soviet Union, not some inherent advantage that the Communist system provided to the Soviets.  In fact, the brutality of Communist system was one of the primary reasons why Germany had so much success during the first few months of Barbarossa. 

Stalin, being a good Communist, had purged hundreds of thousands of his officers in the months and years leading up to June 1941.  As a result, the Soviet Army was practically leaderless when the Germans invaded.   While the Soviet troops on the ground, in many cases, fought valiantly in the summer and fall of 1941, entire Soviet field armies (including as many as 700,000 men in the Kiev pocket) were surrounded and obliterated due to incompetent leadership.  Germany was stopped short of capturing Moscow in 1941 because, simply put, the German Army was exhausted, not because of the Soviet system.  Some German divisions were operating at battalion strength; they had no winter clothes; and they had conquered an area of land in Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States, and western Russia that was twice as large as the entirety of France.  The Soviets didn't have a superior system than the Germans, they had an endless supply of men, land, and winter to keep throwing at the Germans.

Capitalism, on the other hand, played a crucial role in winning World War II.  American Capitalism, through the Lend/Lease Act, quite literally fed the Soviet Union from 1942 to 1945.  During World War II, the United States supplied to the USSR the 2020 equivalent of more than $100 billion in food and equipment.  The Soviet Army would have had to walk to Berlin, not ride, if not for the 400,000+ trucks and 2,000 locomotives the US provided.  The US also supplied the Soviets with some 12,000 aircraft, 13,000 tanks and armored vehicles, nearly 5 million tons of food, and nearly 3 million tons of petroleum products.  60% of all aviation fuel used by the Soviet Air Force during the war was supplied by the United States.  Soviet blood was essential in defeating Nazi Germany; but America's industrial base was every bit as important.

Bad Teammate's assessment also completely ignores the War in the Pacific.  American Capitalism was the only economic system that could have allowed for the massive logistical effort necessary to transport millions of men and millions of tons of material across the vast Pacific Ocean.  By the end of the War, the U.S. Navy had nearly 1,200 capital warships, including 27 fleet carriers, more than 100 escort carriers, and 18 battleships - more than 70% of the entire world's total tonnage of naval vessels.  The U.S. military was able to hop from island to island in the Pacific, from Guadalcanal, to Tarawa, to Cape Gloucester, to Saipan, to Guam, to Tinian, to Peleliu, to Iwo Jima, and finally to Okinawa, while simultaneously deploying armies to New Guinea and the Philippines, winning the Battle of Atlantic, and conducting landings in North Africa, Sicily, Italy, Normandy, and Southern France, because our economic system permitted the construction of such a massive navy.

Finally, his assessment ignores that the resource allocations among the United States and the USSR were intentional.  The U.S. could have built an Army much larger than 91 divisions (plus 6 Marine divisions), but by design, the U.S. committed millions more men to: 1. Industry on the Home Front; 2. Agriculture on the Home Front; 3. Building a massive Navy to fight a world war on two fronts; and 4. Building a massive strategic bomber force that obliterated Germany's industries and cities.  The U.S. could have taken the millions of men in its Navy, Merchant Marine, Army Air Corps, and Industry and put them in front line infantry and armored divisions.  But the better resource allocation was to turn America into the Arsenal of Democracy, such that it could supply enough men to keep the pressure on the Germans in the West and defeat the Japanese in the East (and LOL at the hapless Italians), while simultaneously supplying enough raw material, equipment, and supplies to the Soviets to keep them in the War while they were battering the Soviets on the Eastern Front.  Google "the 90-Division Gamble" for more.

In short, the political and economic systems of the United States allowed it to fight on numerous fronts across the entire globe: the South Pacific, the Central Pacific, Alaska, the China/Burma Theater, the Philippines, North Africa, Italy, Southern France, Western France, and the Atlantic.  The Soviet's political and economic system could never have done that.  World War II was not about the triumph of Communism or Socialism, it was about the triumph of American Capitalism.

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