WWII, Nazis Communists and other stuff

[MadBurgerMaker 403]

lol 

 

 

 

[BabaYaga 15,202]

For fuks sake, this is 100% about a tactic.  A very dangerous one engulfing an important modern movement.  The tactic of demonizing (rightfully so) one murderous group, yet openly embracing another equally diabolical and historically despicable ideology, while claiming it's justified because the first group is so horrible.  This obvious double standard giving one group a pass is dangerous.  

For example, the Marxist ideal of a brotherhood beyond ethnic and racial lines often turned, in practice, to systematic persecution of populations seen as more loyal to their own kind than to the Communist fraternity (Looking at you Ukraine, Holodomor).  Mass murder of the “class enemy” was openly and explicitly advocated, not only as revolutionary strategy but as a cultural transformation.  

Of course then you juxtapose the obvious Nazi racial supremacism that was often masked with proclamations of freedom, brotherhood and justice for (German) workers.  We know how that turned out. 

Nazis were more overt, but at the same time Communism arguably was the worse poison: for instance, it destroyed civil society—social bonds and institutions independent of the state—in a way Nazism did not, which made recovery from Nazism easier. Moreover, “Nazism could not be duplicated” (other fascist states did not even come close); on the other hand, Bolshevism.Marxism was exportable, and produced near-identical results elsewhere. I mean Jesus, the Communist experiments in China and Cambodia were far more barbaric than in the Soviet Union, both in terms of total state control over everyday life and in terms of mass slaughter (70+ combined million deaths).

 

[sidis 9,713]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I kinda like how our constitution says all men are created equal, and all have inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

sigh.  jesus christ.  speaking of irony.  and none of you fuckers even corrected this shit.  he's a dumbfuck okie.  the rest of you do not have this excuse.

 

i hate to get between this 5th grade debate on the topic of who is the mostest evilest but i think part of the issue at play here is the separation of the concept of communism - an political economic system of beliefs from some of history's most notorious rulers of countries with communist (or at least highly socialist) systems in place.  the vileness of stalin, mao, pol pot...these things are not debatable.  however, the irony of associating someone who believes in communism as a preferred, more egalitarian political economic system with the despotic nature of stalin while also posting memes like "everyone i disagree with is hitler" is actual...you know, irony.  there are hundreds of countries even today who have communist parties who are participants in their governments - largely non-ruling members of legislative or parliamentary wings of government.  pcf in france, dkp in germany, cpc in canada, the pce in spain.  their economic beliefs do not necessarily make them akin to stalin.  stalin was a piece of shit, period...but that's who he was as a ruler.  that does not preclude that something positive could possibly emanate from the ussr despite its gross atrocities checkering its existence.

being a nazi is defined as a subscriber to the ideology practiced by the nazi party of germany which inherently incorporates facism and a rejection of liberal democracies and parliamentarian systems, as well as extreme racism and antisemitism.  thus, a nazi = necessarily a really bad person.  a communist = not necessarily a really bad person even though there were some bad people that were "communists."

[bad_teammate 13,125]

14 minutes ago, Stannis said:

The Communist system had little, if anything, to do with defeating the Axis Powers on the Eastern Front.

Did anyone argue it did?

Quote

The Soviets didn't have a superior system than the Germans, they had an endless supply of men, land, and winter to keep throwing at the Germans.

Yes.

Your post is a giant example of defeating arguments no one made. No one argued that Communism as an ideology defeated the Nazis. I argued that the Soviet Union was primarily responsible for defeating the Nazis, and I'm very confident in that assertion because they occupied the vast majority of the Nazi's attention.

Your argument about "capitalism", however, is extremely rosy bordering on outright propaganda.

The conversion of our economy from a consumer-competition economy to a war-preparedness economy was not brought about because of capitalist desire or pursuit. Powerful executives were not eager to lose consumer market-share to non-converting competitors and it took the intervention of the government (via New Deal shipbuilding policy) and the Unions (pushing to convert auto manufacturing to planes). We're talking about a massive amount of central planning in the economy which, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't exactly "capitalism".

You're conflating technological advancement and industrial power with "capitalism", which is a word with a very specific meaning.

In some ways, it's actually kind of offensive to try and rewrite history such that the few powerful oligarchs deserve the praise instead of the masses of Americans banding together to make it happen. A pretty naked worship of class superiors, honestly, and pretty counter to what we should value as Americans.

[BabaYaga 15,202]

4 minutes ago, sidis said:

sigh.  jesus christ.  speaking of irony.  and none of you fuckers even corrected this shit.  he's a dumbfuck okie.  the rest of you do not have this excuse.

 

i hate to get between this 5th grade debate on the topic of who is the mostest evilest but i think part of the issue at play here is the separation of the concept of communism - an political economic system of beliefs from some of history's most notorious rulers of countries with communist (or at least highly socialist) systems in place.  the vileness of stalin, mao, pol pot...these things are not debatable.  however, the irony of associating someone who believes in communism as a preferred, more egalitarian political economic system with the despotic nature of stalin while also posting memes like "everyone i disagree with is hitler" is actual...you know, irony.  there are hundreds of countries even today who have communist parties who are participants in their governments - largely non-ruling members of legislative or parliamentary wings of government.  pcf in france, dkp in germany, cpc in canada, the pce in spain.  their economic beliefs do not necessarily make them akin to stalin.  stalin was a piece of shit, period...but that's who he was as a ruler.  that does not preclude that something positive could possibly emanate from the ussr despite its gross atrocities checkering its existence.

being a nazi is defined as a subscriber to the ideology practiced by the nazi party of germany which inherently incorporates facism and a rejection of liberal democracies and parliamentarian systems, as well as extreme racism and antisemitism.  thus, a nazi = necessarily a really bad person.  a communist = not necessarily a really bad person even though there were some bad people that were "communists."

And we have our first "It just hasn't been implemented properly, but they mean well" response.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

sigh.  jesus christ.  speaking of irony.  and none of you fuckers even corrected this shit.  he's a dumbfuck okie.  the rest of you do not have this excuse.

 

i hate to get between this 5th grade debate on the topic of who is the mostest evilest but i think part of the issue at play here is the separation of the concept of communism - an political economic system of beliefs from some of history's most notorious rulers of countries with communist (or at least highly socialist) systems in place.  the vileness of stalin, mao, pol pot...these things are not debatable.  however, the irony of associating someone who believes in communism as a preferred, more egalitarian political economic system with the despotic nature of stalin while also posting memes like "everyone i disagree with is hitler" is actual...you know, irony.  there are hundreds of countries even today who have communist parties who are participants in their governments - largely non-ruling members of legislative or parliamentary wings of government.  pcf in france, dkp in germany, cpc in canada, the pce in spain.  their economic beliefs do not necessarily make them akin to stalin.  stalin was a piece of shit, period...but that's who he was as a ruler.  that does not preclude that something positive could possibly emanate from the ussr despite its gross atrocities checkering its existence.

being a nazi is defined as a subscriber to the ideology practiced by the nazi party of germany which inherently incorporates facism and a rejection of liberal democracies and parliamentarian systems, as well as extreme racism and antisemitism.  thus, a nazi = necessarily a really bad person.  a communist = not necessarily a really bad person even though there were some bad people that were "communists."

What in the fuck point are you even trying to make ?  That you dipped into the bar a bit early today ?  Yes declaration of independence.  The constitution codifies that sentiment.

[sidis 9,713]

11 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

“Nazism could not be duplicated” (other fascist states did not even come close)

 

only to the size of the atrocity.  to the extent it wasn't "duplicated," that is a function of scale or ignorance.  we saw it in japan, greece, italy...you also saw it in central america in the 1980's, iran from 1955 forward, suharto, marcos, pinochet... 

[BabaYaga 15,202]

4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The conversion of our economy from a consumer-competition economy to a war-preparedness economy was not brought about because of capitalist desire or pursuit.

Myself, Andrew Jackson Higgins, and everyone else that understands free market economics agree you are borderline retarded

[Incredulity 11,532]

2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

You're conflating technological advancement and industrial power with "capitalism", which is a word with a very specific meaning.

 

WTF do you think creates industrial power and technological advancement?  

I will give you a couple hints.  It wasn’t the central planning bureau in Moscow. It rhymes with fefficent fallocation of fcapital.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

only to the size of the atrocity.  to the extent it wasn't "duplicated," that is a function of scale or ignorance.  we saw it in japan, greece, italy...you also saw it in central america in the 1980's, iran from 1955 forward, suharto, marcos, pinochet... 

Iran under the Shah was like Nazi Germany. Are you fucking nuts. If the Shah was like Hitler he would have massacred the revolutionaries and my homeland would still be the sea of tranquility in the Middle East instead of the Islamic shithole it now is. 

[sidis 9,713]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

What in the fuck point are you even trying to make ?  That you dipped into the bar a bit early today ?  Yes declaration of independence.  The constitution codifies that sentiment.

this is the most piss-poor crawfish i have ever seen but i am glad you can use google.  and i said you shouldn't take it personally.  we have no expectations for you.  the constitution did not codify that sentiment when it was formed.  in fact, it codified quite the opposite now didn't it?  3/5ths is not a codification of jefferson's words you fucking moron.

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

And we have our first "It just hasn't been implemented properly, but they mean well" response.  

i realize that life is easier if you distill it down to something so utterly overly-simplified/black and white...

i said nothing of the sort.

but saying that sir thomas more is the moral equivalent of josef stalin is akin to "everyone i disagree with is stalin."

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 minute ago, sidis said:

this is the most piss-poor crawfish i have ever seen but i am glad you can use google.  and i said you shouldn't take it personally.  we have no expectations for you.  the constitution did not codify that sentiment when it was formed.  in fact, it codified quite the opposite now didn't it?  3/5ths is not a codification of jefferson's words you fucking moron.

i realize that life is easier if you distill it down to something so utterly overly-simplified/black and white...

i said nothing of the sort.

but saying that sir thomas more is the moral equivalent of josef stalin is akin to "everyone i disagree with is stalin."

I'm sorry, is the 3/5's rule still law ? Our nation is always evolving.   The sentiment in his words is what the US stands for. That it took just under a century to remove it from law is just another example of our nation always refining, and clarifying the concepts that we were founded upon.

[sidis 9,713]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Iran under the Shah was like Nazi Germany. Are you fucking nuts. If the Shah was like Hitler he would have massacred the revolutionaries and my homeland would still be the sea of tranquility in the Middle East instead of the Islamic shithole it now is. 

i know i will regret engaging you but...yes, your hero was a despot.  and it isn't really debatable to people who haven't been deeply propagandized like yourself.  that doesn't in any way redeem the despotic nature of the ayatollah.  see if you can hold such a complex concept in your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/years-of-torture-in-iran-comes-to-light.html

[BabaYaga 15,202]

1 minute ago, sidis said:

i know i will regret engaging you but...yes, your hero was a despot.  and it isn't really debatable to people who haven't been deeply propagandized like yourself.  that doesn't in any way redeem the despotic nature of the ayatollah.  see if you can hold such a complex concept in your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/years-of-torture-in-iran-comes-to-light.html

Again, the point - totalitarianism is one thing and not easily replicated as Nazism was.  Communism, on the other hand spread it's death and destruction world-wide once these leaders assumed power and had control.  

[bad_teammate 13,125]

5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Myself, Andrew Jackson Higgins, and everyone else that understands free market economics agree you are borderline retarded

The shipping industry in the US was rescued by government intervention and Higgins's massive operation was built on a planned military economy funded by taxes. Shipbuilding was overseen by one of the many New Deal alphabet agencies, the maritime commission. It wasn't just a case of Higgins seeing a market hole and using his own capital to pursue it.

3 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

WTF do you think creates industrial power and technological advancement?  

I will give you a couple hints.  It wasn’t the central planning bureau in Moscow. It rhymes with fefficent fallocation of fcapital.

The Soviet Union became the 2nd most powerful industrial and technological nation in the world in the years following WWII due to central planning in Moscow. Of course the highly emotional will take that sentence as some kind of profession of love for Joseph Stalin, but denying the rise of the Soviet Union is profoundly ignorant historically.

Besides, our powerful economy in WWII was planned through institutions like the US War Production Board through devices like the Controlled Materials Plan and Production Requirements Plan. (And many others.)

A wartime economy has to be a planned economy to be efficient.

[sidis 9,713]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm sorry, is the 3/5's rule still law ? Our nation is always evolving.   The sentiment in his words is what the US stands for. That it took just under a century to remove it from law is just another example of our nation always refining, and clarifying the concepts that we were founded upon.

remember that this started with you saying that you were happy with the concept of the constitution of the united states declaring all mean as being created equal and being afforded inalienable rights as stated in the declaration of independence.  not only is that simply wrong, but it even serves to highlight the checkered past of the united states.

6 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Again, the point - totalitarianism is one thing and not easily replicated as Nazism was.  Communism, on the other hand spread it's death and destruction world-wide once these leaders assumed power and had control.  

i am assuming you messed up your first sentence so i will just ignore.

the second is akin to say that every single economic system has spread death and destruction once a mass murdering despot assumed power and had control.

profound.

Edited August 7, 2020 by sidis

[BabaYaga 15,202]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The Soviet Union became the 2nd most powerful industrial and technological nation in the world in the years following WWII due to central planning in Moscow.

Before it utterly and completely collapsed.  Or were you going to get to that point later?

[Incredulity 11,532]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Before it utterly and completely collapsed.  Or were you going to get to that point later?

If only those damn Scorpions hadn’t sung Winds of Change good old Mother Russia would be chugging right along.

[sidis 9,713]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Before it utterly and completely collapsed.  Or were you going to get to that point later?

i will agree with you completely on the notion that communism is an extremely poor economic system from which to springboard hegemonic imperialism across the globe.

[BabaYaga 15,202]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

the second is akin to say that every single economic system has spread death and destruction once a mass murdering despot assumed power and had control.

profound.

Yeah, it's just a weird coincidence that mass killings in Russia, China, North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, or Cuba to the tune of more than hundred million people had a single ideology in common?  

[Stannis 232]

34 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Did anyone argue it did?

Yes.

Your post is a giant example of defeating arguments no one made. No one argued that Communism as an ideology defeated the Nazis. I argued that the Soviet Union was primarily responsible for defeating the Nazis, and I'm very confident in that assertion because they occupied the vast majority of the Nazi's attention.

 

You literally asserted: 

Quote

The Soviet Union defeated the Nazis, so there's a pretty stellar mark in Communism's win column.

Do you now agree with me that your previous statement was incorrect?

Edited August 7, 2020 by Stannis

[BabaYaga 15,202]

2 minutes ago, sidis said:

i will agree with you completely on the notion that communism is an extremely poor economic system from which to springboard hegemonic imperialism across the globe.

Yet it's openly embraced.  Celebrated even.  With no context to the wake of historical destruction and death across the globe.  Surpassed in a staggering death count only by mother nature (Plague and Malaria).  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Ya know, a Che shirt with a Marxist death count on the back would be pretty fucking compelling.

He should be shown wearing his Rolex....

[GHOSTUSER 361]

53 minutes ago, sidis said:

i know i will regret engaging you but...yes, your hero was a despot.  and it isn't really debatable to people who haven't been deeply propagandized like yourself.  that doesn't in any way redeem the despotic nature of the ayatollah.  see if you can hold such a complex concept in your head.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/22/world/middleeast/years-of-torture-in-iran-comes-to-light.html

I had family killed by Savak. Still when you’re dealing with the Middle East and the scourge of Islam, I will take a Reza Shah, Ataturk, Gen. Sisi or those like them any day of the week of the week over the alternative.

[washparkhorn 9,931]

21 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yet it's openly embraced.  Celebrated even.  

Communism is dead.

 

[washparkhorn 9,931]

5 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

I had family killed by Savak. Still when you’re dealing with the Middle East and the scourge of Islam, I will take a Reza Shah, Ataturk, Gen. Sisi or those like them any day of the week of the week over the alternative.

 Manufacturing consent.  

[BabaYaga 15,202]

5 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Communism is dead.

 

Nah, as long as we have the young, hip, culturally ignorant, and woke, it's future is assured

[washparkhorn 9,931]

please.

corporate socialism dominates our economic system - which doesn't seem to raise any concerns for you patriots. 

 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

48 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Yet it's openly embraced.  Celebrated even.  With no context to the wake of historical destruction and death across the globe.  Surpassed in a staggering death count only by mother nature (Plague and Malaria).  

The protesters display the hammer and sickle prominently on their gear and on social media. A symbol of an ideology that has caused tens of millions of deaths and misery all over the globe. No discussion or questioning of their motives by the media despite them declaring their allegiance openly. 

[washparkhorn 9,931]

3 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

The protesters display the hammer and sickle prominently on their gear and on social media. A symbol of . . . 

Pop Culture.

Andy Warhol, Hammer and Sickle (1976).

[Scheiss Meister 8,398]

Fuck all Nazis.  I would not shed a tear if every one of them died.  Fuck all Communists.  I would not shed a tear if every one of them died.  Evil is evil, so fuck them both.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

Fuck all Nazis.  I would not shed a tear if every one of them died.  Fuck all Communists.  I would not shed a tear if every one of them died.  Evil is evil, so fuck them both.

Let's put 'em in thunderdome, and have a pay per view.

[Scheiss Meister 8,398]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Let's put 'em in thunderdome, and have a pay per view.

Only if the rest of us kill every single survivor after it is over.  I will gladly participate in said slaughter.

[workswithseed 2,033]

1 hour ago, BurntEyes said:

I will admit I skimmed, but has anyone informed BT that Stalin was on team Nazi until he decided to enter the transfer portal which pissed Adolf off a tad and made him cut his scholarship?

Yeah, I just didn't talk about the second part.

[workswithseed 2,033]

41 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

please.

corporate socialism dominates our economic system - which doesn't seem to raise any concerns for you patriots. 

 

Yes! Libertarians agree, no more corporate welfare. 

[washparkhorn 9,931]

Stalin was on Team Stalin. Hitler was on Team Hitler. Pol Pot was on Team Pol Pot. Mao was on Team Mao. 

Cults of personality are problematic and killed hundreds of millions.

Power for power's sake. Murderous narcissistic sociopaths. 

 

[hayden_horn 11,360]

16 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Stalin was on Team Stalin. Hitler was on Team Hitler. Pol Pot was on Team Pol Pot. Mao was on Team Mao. 

Cults of personality are problematic and killed hundreds of millions.

Power for power's sake. Murderous narcissistic sociopaths. 

 

jesus fucking christ, finally someone not named @sidis gets it.

the nazis were not socialist, but it's right there in their name. the russians weren't communist, but it was right there in their name. the khmer rouge was not communist, but it was right there in their name.

all of these were examples of authoritarian despotism.

caesar cloaked himself in the trappings of the republic, but he was a despot, as was every subsequent emperor of rome, no matter the illusion of the senate.

yall are arguing the merits of different despots who killed countless people and trying to assign value to their systems. they all fucking sucked because they were authoritarian assholes.

[workswithseed 2,033]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

jesus fucking christ, finally someone not named @sidis gets it.

the nazis were not socialist, but it's right there in their name. the russians weren't communist, but it was right there in their name. the khmer rouge was not communist, but it was right there in their name.

all of these were examples of authoritarian despotism.

caesar cloaked himself in the trappings of the republic, but he was a despot, as was every subsequent emperor of rome, no matter the illusion of the senate.

yall are arguing the merits of different despots who killed countless people and trying to assign value to their systems. they all fucking sucked because they were authoritarian assholes.

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

jesus fucking christ, finally someone not named @sidis gets it.

the nazis were not socialist, but it's right there in their name. the russians weren't communist, but it was right there in their name. the khmer rouge was not communist, but it was right there in their name.

all of these were examples of authoritarian despotism.

caesar cloaked himself in the trappings of the republic, but he was a despot, as was every subsequent emperor of rome, no matter the illusion of the senate.

yall are arguing the merits of different despots who killed countless people and trying to assign value to their systems. they all fucking sucked because they were authoritarian assholes.

He ain't the only one who gets it. Despots have always been out for themselves since despots were despots.  It's called narcissism in its most basic definition, and form. And communism does not, nor will it ever work. So it doesn't mater what it's called it's a theoretical system of gov't which is just power, and control of a few over the many.

[Foosters 17,691]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

He ain't the only one who gets it. Despots have always been out for themselves since despots were despots.  It's called narcissism in its most basic definition, and form. And communism does not, nor will it ever work. So it doesn't mater what it's called it's a theoretical system of gov't which is just power, and control of a few over the many.

And how would you describe the modern day United States?

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, Foosters said:

And how would you describe the modern day United States?

 

As a great system being gamed by people with money, and 2 political parties that are willing to sell to the highest bidder.

[bad_teammate 13,125]

2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Before it utterly and completely collapsed.  Or were you going to get to that point later?

All empires fall. Ours will, too.

2 hours ago, Stannis said:

You literally asserted: 

Do you now agree with me that your previous statement was incorrect?

I was responding snarkily to a bunch of ignorant trolls in their own ignorant terms. Taken out of that context, I totally understand your point and will seek with sincerity to clarify my position for the purpose of intelligent conversation with someone who might actually be taking the conversation seriously.

Here's an argument I will happily make in sincerity: Only a planned economy could have defeated the Nazis. Both the USSR and USA had planned wartime economies, essentially different versions of a mixed economy. The USSR had an individual despot and the USA had (still has) a despotic duopoly.

[Foosters 17,691]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

As a great system being gamed by people with money, and 2 political parties that are willing to sell to the highest bidder.

A system so great that its been hijacked by the greedy for influence, power, and money.  

So, is that not possible with other systems, like say, Communism?

[bad_teammate 13,125]

"My boss is better than your boss!"

[Huckleberry 32,685]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Yes! Libertarians agree, no more corporate welfare. 

 

[Celery Man 20,874]

[washparkhorn 9,931]

33 minutes ago, Foosters said:

A system so great that its been hijacked by the greedy for influence, power, and money.  

So, is that not possible with other systems, like say, Communism?

It's the flaw in any economic system. Those who have power and wealth use it to maintain power and wealth.

Inefficiencies are the result - which leads to a wealth imbalance and social strife. No matter the economic system. 

[washparkhorn 9,931]

35 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

 

Bloody hell. 

LINO's.

[Brothahorn 10,085]

Vigilantism is great until you end up on the wrong end of the rope. Be careful what you wish for.

[workswithseed 2,033]

55 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

 

Damn, you'd think they would explode their own org before that.