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Champions League 2017-2018

sidis

By sidis
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Cheeseweasel
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Props to Harry Kane for stepping up in that situation and nailing home the penalty. Balls of steel. 

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Captain Ron

Captain Ron 13097

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, PittsburghTiger said:

Was the Liverpool result a surprise, or an expected result?

Losing - not so much. Getting killed, absolutely. 

BTW - I wouldn't call City flipping this result catastrophic. If any team can do it it's City. I would call this series the one with drama left (Sevilla isn't scoring 2 in Munich, much less winning). 

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Bone3421

Bone3421 716

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Captain Ron said:

Losing - not so much. Getting killed, absolutely. 

BTW - I wouldn't call City flipping this result catastrophic. If any team can do it it's City. I would call this series the one with drama left (Sevilla isn't scoring 2 in Munich, much less winning). 

Meh...i say the bayern/sevilla is only one with any real drama since its only one goal difference...rest are going to need dramatic turn arounds

Yes liverpool gives up goals in matches but if salah gets 1 then liverpool should move on

Edited by Bone3421
Stupid home team on top lol
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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6320

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4 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

City are arguably the best team in Europe. Nobody saw that coming.

Not being a smartass but you are the first person I have heard say that this year. Truthfully I don't follow the EPL that much. I stick with the Bundesliga first, then I enjoy watching a couple of the French teams and a couple of the Spanish teams.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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Just now, PittsburghTiger said:

Not being a smartass but you are the first person I have heard say that this year. Truthfully I don't follow the EPL that much. I stick with the Bundesliga first, then I enjoy watching a couple of the French teams and a couple of the Spanish teams.

City have been far and away the best team in the EPL; they can clinch the league title in their next match iirc. They were without Agüero today which hurt them no doubt; even one goal leaves them in a situation where a 2-0 home win sees them through. And seeing as they have a completely ridiculous 88/21 goal difference in the Prem this year a 2-0 win would be perfectly expected.

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GabrielsHorn

GabrielsHorn 2242

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8 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

City have been far and away the best team in the EPL; they can clinch the league title in their next match iirc. They were without Agüero today which hurt them no doubt; even one goal leaves them in a situation where a 2-0 home win sees them through. And seeing as they have a completely ridiculous 88/21 goal difference in the Prem this year a 2-0 win would be perfectly expected.

The EPL is so, so different from European competitions though. See what happened to Tottenham. It's a very different style of play and reffing that can make the best EPL teams change. We have proof from half a decade of EPL teams failing to get to the SF of this. 

While City have had a very impressive season domestically, it's still a step to far to call them one of the best teams in Europe when they had a very easy draw in the groups and Basel in the Round of 16. 

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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55 minutes ago, GabrielsHorn said:

The EPL is so, so different from European competitions though. See what happened to Tottenham. It's a very different style of play and reffing that can make the best EPL teams change. We have proof from half a decade of EPL teams failing to get to the SF of this. 

While City have had a very impressive season domestically, it's still a step to far to call them one of the best teams in Europe when they had a very easy draw in the groups and Basel in the Round of 16. 

I'd go a step further. Barcelona, Real Madrid & Bayern are juggernauts. The best team in the EPL would have a hell of a time beating any of them. The EPL is probably the best (most competitive?) league top to bottom but those three teams DOMINATE their leagues. City wouldn't win LaLiga or Bundas the way they coasted thru the EPL.

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Biscuits And Groovy

Biscuits And Groovy 21

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As a City supporter, I wasn't surprised but I was totally disappointed. Liverpool and Klopp deserve a ton of credit, but Pep putting Gundogan in at RW in the first half totally out-coached himself. The midfield had no idea where their team mates were because everyone was shifted around, and how you beat a press like Liverpool's is by playing as a collective unit and having an almost 6th sense as to where your teammates are to pick out a pass and get through. Still though, the way we played in the 2nd half we should have gotten a goal or two, but Sane was having a shocker and David was pretty off it. If Klopp comes out and goes all-out defensive in the 2nd leg I think City have a shot at going through. As amazing as the result was for Liverpool, they need to keep pressing and probably get one away goal to be assured of going into the semi's. And even though I'm a City fan, I'm saying that pretty impartially.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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I'll never understand coaches who say "I know I've been successful all season, but let's mix things up a bit!".

The teams who have been successful against Liverpool this season absorb pressure and don't let us counter. Pep set City up to control the tempo and push up (which has worked well this year) but opened themselves up to our strength. After the second goal, you think he would have figured it out.

But as it's been said before, every boxer has a plan until they get punched in the face. 

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Biscuits And Groovy

Biscuits And Groovy 21

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Yeah, I totally understand why Pep would chose to go out that way but I clearly didn't come off. Our midfield was all over the place and as much as Liverpool's press had to do with that it was also largely because the midfield didn't know where they were supposed to be. In the times where we were able to get things forward we allowed Liverpool to compact the game because we didn't have a wide player on the right for them to respect. Walker tried his best but without a winger out wide there was just nothing doing on that side, and him being forced to get so far forward was a big reason why he ended up probably having his worst match in a City shirt.

Still though, Pep's 2nd half changes really opened things up. Without Sane having a shocking match and Silva being off with his touch we would probably have scored a goal or two, so Pep didn't have an all out mare tactically. All respect to TAA for really working well and doing well to keep him from cutting inside too often, but Sane was misplacing every damn pass all game regardless of where TAA was and was overly selfish on multiple occasions.

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Kringelbert Fishtybuns

Kringelbert Fishtybuns 945

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1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I'd go a step further. Barcelona, Real Madrid & Bayern are juggernauts. The best team in the EPL would have a hell of a time beating any of them. The EPL is probably the best (most competitive?) league top to bottom but those three teams DOMINATE their leagues. City wouldn't win LaLiga or Bundas the way they coasted thru the EPL.

The English speaking press always says that the EPL is the most competitive league in the world, but the point distributions between them and La Liga for the past couple of years look pretty damn similar.  If the seventh spot team in La Liga can make the second place team in the EPL look pedestrian and the juggernaut of Real is currently 13 points off first place sitting in third, I don't know how the argument holds any water.  I know they invented the game and they spend money like drunken sailors on shore leave, but right now the results don't seem to match.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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26 minutes ago, Kringelbert Fishtybuns said:

The English speaking press always says that the EPL is the most competitive league in the world, but the point distributions between them and La Liga for the past couple of years look pretty damn similar.  If the seventh spot team in La Liga can make the second place team in the EPL look pedestrian and the juggernaut of Real is currently 13 points off first place sitting in third, I don't know how the argument holds any water.  I know they invented the game and they spend money like drunken sailors on shore leave, but right now the results don't seem to match.

It's obviously hard to compare, but you just rarely hear about teams like Levante or Sociadad making a run, whereas in the EPL we are only 2 seasons away from Leicester winning the league. Think about the top 6 in the EPL right now:

City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal. That's pretty damn strong compared to the top 6 in LaLiga. Would anyone worry about playing Valencia? Real Betis? 

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WBT

WBT 20884

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7 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Would anyone worry about playing Valencia? Real Betis? 

Valencia is one point behind Real Madrid.  Betis is tied with Sevilla who dominated United over two legs.  So, yes?

 

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Firemans4Horn

Firemans4Horn 18500

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19 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It's obviously hard to compare, but you just rarely hear about teams like Levante or Sociadad making a run, whereas in the EPL we are only 2 seasons away from Leicester winning the league. Think about the top 6 in the EPL right now:

City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal. That's pretty damn strong compared to the top 6 in LaLiga. Would anyone worry about playing Valencia? Real Betis? 

The top 6 in the premier league has more less been the same for 10 years and they haven’t done shit in Europe since 2009. The EPL is the strongest league in the World in their journalist/fans/managers own minds. Spain has clearly been better the last 8-9 years. 

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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10 minutes ago, Firemans4Horn said:

The top 6 in the premier league has more less been the same for 10 years and they haven’t done shit in Europe since 2009. The EPL is the strongest league in the World in their journalist/fans/managers own minds. Spain has clearly been better the last 8-9 years. 

I would agree that the top teams in Spain are better than the top teams in the EPL. This gets proven every year. 

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Kringelbert Fishtybuns

Kringelbert Fishtybuns 945

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4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

It's obviously hard to compare, but you just rarely hear about teams like Levante or Sociadad making a run, whereas in the EPL we are only 2 seasons away from Leicester winning the league. Think about the top 6 in the EPL right now:

City, United, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea & Arsenal. That's pretty damn strong compared to the top 6 in LaLiga. Would anyone worry about playing Valencia? Real Betis? 

They may not be afraid, but maybe they should be.  Betis and Girona are in a position to play in Europe.  You may have never seen them play or recognize the names on the jerseys, but they aren't bad squads. 

In the 25 years of the Premier League, there have been 6 different clubs that have won (Man U (13), Man C (2), Arsenal (3), Chelsea (5),  Leicester (1) and Blackburn (1)).  For the same span, there have been 5 different Spanish champions (Deportivo (1), Real (8), Atleti (2), Barca (12), and Valencia (2)).  So basically the EPL has had one more fluke than in Spain.  The big leagues are top heavy and with as much money that is now pouring in, I don't think that is going to change.

I know Liverpool fans will disagree, but without a Luis Garcia clearance and a Schevshenko sitter miss their last quarter century is less successful than Valencia (2 Leagues, 2 Cups, 2 CL finals - one lost on penalties).  Man U just lost to Sevilla.  Spurs are fun, but still Spurs when anything important comes along.  Chelsea have talent, but look to be going into fire sale/phoenix mode.  Arsenal are wandering in the wilderness at the moment.  

Look, I like watching the EPL too.  I just don't get the circle jerk that comes from its plaudits.  Its almost like the SEC fans, if they had the relative success of the ACC.  These things tend to ebb and flow.  Just look at the Serie A now compared to 1990-2007.

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26439

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13 minutes ago, Kringelbert Fishtybuns said:

Its almost like the SEC fans, if they had the relative success of the ACC.  These things tend to ebb and flow.  Just look at the Serie A now compared to 1990-2007.

I think LaLiga is a much better comparison to the SEC. 1-2 teams dominate and the entire conference takes credit. 

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Biscuits And Groovy

Biscuits And Groovy 21

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Yeah, The Premier League is massively overrated. Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern wouldn't have any more difficulty in England than they do in Spain and Germany. PSG would be right up there with City this season. And I don't think mid table that England is any stronger than Spain and Germany either. Last season was the first time in how many years that a Spanish team didn't win both European cups? Teams in the Premier League run a lot and its a more physical game, but they dont have nearly the skill of Spain league wide, and Germany is just as competitive when you take Bayern out of the picture. But like I said Bayern would be just as dominant in England as they are in Germany, so IMO you cant discredit The Bundesliga for not measuring up to Bayern when The PL wouldn't either most seasons.

The Premier League also doesn't have the Star power of Spain. There is only one player in England who would start in every single squad in Europe right now, and that's Kevin De Bruyne. The rest, and that includes Mo Salah and Eden Hazard, are great players but wouldnt see time on either of the Spanish giants or possibly not even for Bayern and PSG. In Spain Kroos, Modric, Carvahal, Cristiano, Messi, Busquets, Sergio Ramos, all would start on literally every team in the world. Lewandowski(the only striker better than Luis Suarez right now, IMO) and Neuer are on that level, and a good case can be made for Thiago and David Alaba IMO.

Tactics wise, Italy is probably the most diverse ranging from lock down defensive teams that are the stereotypical Italian squad to wide open attacking teams like Napoli and Lazio. And the Madrid result notwithstanding, Juve is still a monster both with and without the ball that is having as good a season as anyone in England outside maybe City.

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Kringelbert Fishtybuns

Kringelbert Fishtybuns 945

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10 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I think LaLiga is a much better comparison to the SEC. 1-2 teams dominate and the entire conference takes credit. 

You want it to be one way, but its the other.

I'm just using the Premier League time span, since that has been the beginning of big TV money flooding in and 25 years seems like a long enough time span.

Spain has 10 UCL winners (Real 6, Barca 4) and 5 UCL runners up (Atletico 2, Valencia 2, Barca 1).  England has 4 winners (Man U 2, Chelsea 1, Liverpool 1) and 5 runners up ( Arsenal 1, Chelsea 1, Liverpool 1, Man U 2).  Four teams for each league have played for the UCL.  If Griezmann doesn't miss the penalty two years ago, the number of teams to have won probably would be equal.

If you assume the Europa League is comparable to a top bowl game not in the playoffs, for the same time frame

Spain -

Winners

Sevilla (5), Atletico (2), Valencia 1

Runners Up (3)

Atletic Bilbao, Espanyol and Alaves

England

Winners (3)

Liverpool - 1, Chelsea - 1, Man U - 1 

Runners Up (4)

Arsenal 1, Middlesborough 1, Liverpool 1, Fulham 1   

If we eliminate those from the UCL list to prevent double dipping, Spain has 4 top Europa League level squads and the EPL has 2 (both of which currently no longer play in the top tier).

 

 

 

 

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Biscuits And Groovy

Biscuits And Groovy 21

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Check out this from the City v Liverpool match. Perfectly encapsulates why Liverpool were so easily able to control the game in the first half. City were so narrow with Gundogan playing where Sterling and Bernardo usually play that they practically pocketed their own midfield. Pep over-managed the his squad to start with the decision to put an extra man in midfield without taking off Sane for someone better centrally, and Klopp responded perfectly by condensing his team instead of trying to keep things open. 

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