Do We Have a Christ Followers Thread?

[Clintonaldo 2572]

Yeah, we're getting off a tangent that for once, I wasn't purposely trying to do.  This would be a good conversation for another thread because I have a lot of researched thoughts on this and sounds like you do too.  
But I would like to get back to my earlier question for those who consider themselves followers of Christ (as both the OP and myself do)...have you oscillated between denominations/churches/faiths/et. al. in marriage and/or older age?  And what drives that?  

I have been a member of church of God Pentecostal, Baptist and Church of Christ.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest Lobo]

Just now, Clintonaldo said:

I have been a member of church of God Pentecostal, Baptist and Church of Christ.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You take strange routes to find a bar.  

[Brisketexan 105061]

15 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Yeah, you bitching about this on many threads would work.  But a dude who's wife is a minister and he's hasn't found Christ...yeah, I wanna hear that guys opinion in this thread.  Fascinates me. 

 

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think you have it wrong on brisket.  He's found Christ, he's just disgusted by many of the others who claim to have done so.  In large part because they found him, put him in the back of a drawer, and actively work to harm their fellow man.

 

13 hours ago, ChiTownDoc said:

That's 100% part of it - but I feel even he won't say he's truly found Christ yet...from reading posts in the past I feel he still feels he's on his way there whereas his wife obviously has made it all the way.  But yes, I'm agreeing with that being a big part of his reaction to some of the posters here.  I'm sure he can tell us how far off we are.  A good dude, regardless...

 

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Oddly enough, his wife is a Presbyterian minister and Presbyterians, being Calvinists, are closer to the "saved once, saved forever" notion.

Brisket is more an Arminian/Wesleyan guy, where you actually need to do something to preserve your faith and salvation.  I know he went to a Catholic school, but I'm not actually sure he was raised Catholic, although it would make sense given his hispanic and acadian heritage.  Catholics are more Arminian/Wesleyan than Arminian/Wesleyans (not justified by faith alone).

Lotta questions and thoughts to answer, so here goes....

It's not that I have or haven't "found" Christ.  It's that my relationship is...complicated.  Y'all are right that I loathe "Christianity," but I put it in quotes for a reason: what American vocal (and political, in many cases) "Christians" call Christianity is effectively a polar opposite of the Gospels and Torah (and by the way, those are the same -- as my theologian wife taught me that, mind was blown).  But that just means that I loathe a perversion, and the people who use faith as a weapon of cruelty and selfishness.  To see a faith of love used as an instrument of pain?  Fuck that.

As for my relationship with the ACTUAL faith (the Gospels and Torah), it's complicated mostly because it's hard.  Mostly because I am acutely aware of my daily -- multiple momentary, each day -- failings.  I am selfish.  I am mean.  I am unkind when I could be kind.  I am a broken, fallen motherfucker.  And if "being truly Christlike" is like summitting Everest, I'm not even to base camp.  Fuck that, I'm still at ABIA, trying to figure out which airline can even get me to Nepal.  That's humbling, and often discouraging, as hell.

I also struggle with the truth that God, and the nature of God, is truly unknowable.  I am a creature of evidence and reason.  I am used to knowing things (at least, knowing enough about them to successfully navigate them in my life, or to present them to a jury of lay people in a court).  So, accepting that there are things in this universe that are and will always remain beyond my grasp (and it's not just God -- check out some images from the Hubble telescope, and realize that we don't know shit about the universe, and never will) is tough for me.

I also struggle with control.  Let go, let God?  Sure, sounds like a good idea. I'll get right on that....right after I keep both of my hands firmly on the wheel, because I trust me, and only me, and I've got this.  Man, the tremendous and stupid ego that has to be involved there -- God can do this, so fuck it, I should be able to handle it too, right?  

I guess my endpoint is this -- maybe I'm not that different from most people.  We all have our baggage, our particular blend of psychoses.  Those things, which make us perfectly human, make following the Way very, very hard.  If Christianity is indeed summitting Everest, I've never met anyone who has done any more than perhaps found the path to Base Camp.  The best of us is so far from the summit that arguing about who has gone farther is not just folly, it's insulting and counter-productive.  Especially when what we are called to do is to help each other along that journey.  When we see someone metaphorically staring at the board of departing flights that might connect to Nepal, maybe we take the time to help that person talk through the flights, so they can start.  When we get to Nepal, maybe we spend time with other people about to begin the trek towards the mountains, and gather our gear and talk about ways to get there.  None of us is at the summit.  We are all heading the same way.  Why would we not travel together?

Which gets us to COMMUNITY, which I think is foundational and essential to our faith.  We can talk about it later, but I absolutely believe that community is a necessary element of our faith (and has been since the beginning -- see my reference below to Rabbi Hillel, and his sentiments on the subject).

History: raised in a deeply Catholic family, on both sides (mexican and NOLA coonass, go figure).  Educated by Jesuits, so faith and intellectual exploration of same were fed and encouraged.  Wife was raised Methodist.  She took a longer faith journey, went to seminary.  Now, we are both Presbyterian (although I honestly say that I am a Presbyterian Catholic -- both faiths and faith traditions speak to me, deeply).

As for my wife, the Presybterian minister.....she has a complicated relationship with the Church as well.  I won't dox her, I won't speak for her much more than I already have.  Her faith is definitely deeper and better informed than mine.  She is better read, and wiser than I.  She was and remains a theologian (she has a stack of books she's always working on, she writes regularly).  Talking and learning with her was the first time I truly understood the concept of Grace (being a good American, schooled in the belief in meritocracy, it took me time to extricate my secular rigidity from my theological views).  A gift given, that I did not deserve -- and given the nature of that gift, a gift I could NEVER truly deserve -- that's pretty profound.  And when I got Grace, and really began to understand it, is probably when my faith became most real.  I have some bigger thoughts on that (that weave into salvation, and the need for works, etc. -- I mean, if God loves me so much as to grant me Grace, UNEARNED, yet He calls me to build his kingdom here on earth, how can I disappoint and refuse to answer that call?  Not in exchange for Grace, but in gratitude for Grace, I am obligated - by my OWN sense of duty and right - to be His hands on earth.  Oh, and I fail miserably, but I guess I keep getting back up)....but again, that's a much bigger discussion.

Lobo, you noted your theology being Jewish-Lutheran and it struck you as incompatible, but man, when you really dig in to Torah, and realize that Christ is living Torah....the beautiful intersection and companionship of Judaism and Christianity is incredible.  Am I Jewish?  Maybe, because I believe in Torah.

4 hours ago, pch said:

I'm a prodigal son.  This description is the one I would say I relate to most and my answer to those who would judge my anger, hurt, mistrust, etc., towards the God of my understanding need to get a bigger God.  I have come to believe that grace given is the path to grace received and try to live that way. Pretty sure the Creator knows His creation is imperfect and doesn't expect us to live up to the unrealistic expectations often placed on us by various groups.  A daily routine of reading spiritual literature, meditating, and praying has served me well in my return to the almighty as it has those I am closest to. I am comforted in knowing that my future days are likely to be more serene if I continue the journey in this way, just as the opposite is also true.

The prodigal son is my favorite parable, and there's not even a close second.  It's because we have all been every character in the parable at one time or another.

Have I been the fallen idiot, who fucked everything up, yet when I returned, worthy of nothing, I was given love, and welcome -- I was given Grace?  Yep.  Like, regularly.

Have I been the good son, who tried hard, did things right, and saw the shitheel receive what I saw as even GREATER love and appreciation, unearned, and I resented it?  You bet your ass.

Have I been the father, understanding what love and grace is, giving it to someone who has fallen and failed, who hasn't "earned" it, but who nonetheless should be given my love, without condition?  Yeah.  Not as much as I should be, but yeah, at least occasionally, I've been him.  Love everyone, whether they deserve it or not.  Sometimes, the father resonates me because I was at a moment when I could have been him, but failed.

At any given time in my life, I can read that parable and it brings me to my knees, for a different reason each time.

 

In summary, my journey is my own.  It's fucked up, mostly of my own doing.  I know a lot more than I used to, but I still don't know shit.  So I stick with the basics.  I don't know what your journey is, or where you are on it, but I'll walk along with you, because that's what we're called to do.  I don't deserve God's love, but I get it anyway.  And the Great Commandment is pretty unambiguous on that point as well -- I am called to love my fellow humans.  All of them.  Whether or not they "deserve" my love is irrelevant.  And that one is hard sometimes....because people are fucking assholes and fuck them and fuck even the idea of me loving fucking assholes.  Yet there's the voice in the back of my mind that won't go away -- "yes, even assholes."  So, I try.  Be kind.  Live Torah:

Quote

 A gentile approached Shammai and Hillel, demanding to be taught the whole Torah while standing on one leg. Shammai is indeed provoked and gives the man an angry whack with a measuring rod. Hillel replies, “That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary — [and now] go study.”

Note, that's not a free pass.  The "now go study" is a bitch.  I liken it this way, to those of you familiar with golf, or flyfishing:

A decent teacher can teach you how to swing a golf club, or how to cast a fly line, in a single afternoon.

Yet that same student will then spend the rest of his life learning how to swing a golf club or cast a fly.

Both things are true.

I know how to cast a fly.  I can catch plenty of fish.  But if you've ever watched me cast....you know that I am still learning, and I always will be.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Brisketexan

[pch 1259]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

As a man of baseball faith, how does one "assist" a "save"?  I don't understand the shirt if it says "on the assist"?  No broadcaster would ever announce "And Jesus saves the game with Esposito on the assist."  Unless something is lost in the translation, which is my first issue with the bible.  

 

Maybe that's why it was 90% off!!! 

Edited August 22, 2020 by pch

[Guest Lobo]

The shirt, my opinion, or your faith?  

Brisket---thanks for sharing.  I like where you wrote that your mind was blown when she told you that the Torah and the Gospels were one in the same.  I am constantly amazed to still meet people in mid-life that, mainly Catholics, that don't know the relationship between the Old Testament and the Torah, that they worship the Jewish God, and that their best buddy-Jesus, was born and raised a Jew, didn't eat pork or nuthin.  How the fuck does that not come up in your first 50 years in an organized Faith?  

[RomaVicta 29902]

I wish there was a different board for this. Philosophy or Religion or Philosophy/Religion.

For non-believers such as myself, you maybe don't realize how much this stuff is constantly in my face. It often has a strong in-group/out-group feel that I've always found off-putting. 

You in the club?

Yea

Great, man. 

Hey, new guy, how 'bout you.

Nah.

I'll pray for you. The club is the best. You're either in or out, and I hope you opt in! It will make your life great. 

There is so much presumption in that. I had a friendly chat with a Christian who came to the door last weekend. We went down the usual roads with me telling him over and over that arguments wouldn't work. Maybe he's right maybe he's not. If people find religion to be their path to a good and generous life, that's great. I'm doing fine without it. And, yes, I did ask for Jesus to come into my life back when I could be sincere about it and nada.

This is a news board where absurd lengths are sometimes taken to keep politics separate. It's odd that religion is welcome here instead. Now that I write that, I wonder if the inclinations are somehow connected. Don't challenge my politics. Don't challenge my religion. But the presence of a clear position on politics or religion is necessarily an opinion. Find a new place for fellowship, please don't claim space here.

My philosophy has simplified over the years into this: I don't care what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone and you don't make me watch. This sort of falls under making me watch. I'm not damaged, but I'm annoyed. 

Written with respect and without rancor.

 

[Guest Lobo]

^

You raise a good secondary point...the inability to mix news and politics in a reasonable fashion on here, despite this board being largely comprised of intelligent and well educated people, is still crazy to us.  But yet, we seem to have little issue mixing in religion which used to be much more toxic to discuss in polite society.  

I've long despised people that couldn't shut up about their faith or overly-inquired into mine.  But in 2020, I've laxed on that quite a bit.  I don't mind people bringing it up or asking about mine nearly as much anymore, I suppose because we are all looking for answers and guidance from faith/nature/the universe so much more now than ever.  

Having said that, it is insanely bizarre to me in 2020 with all that's happening, I can in person or post online, "God is doing a piss-poor job of guiding this country through Covid-19 and all our other challenges."  And nobody would bat an eye.  If I were to simply say, "(Name of your favorite elected official) is doing a piss-poor job of guiding this country through Covid-19 and all our other challenges"...I'd have threats made against me and be called every vile name in the book.  5 years ago, I think it would have been the complete opposite.  Everyone has doubts, particularly now, when it comes to faith/religion.  But people have never been so sure of their politics.  Strange. 

You can doubt the Messiah in 2020 on the DT forum.  You just can't doubt the False Messiah in 2020 on the DT forum.  Which, to the point of this Christian thread, was a huge fucking red flag warning from God to us in the Book of Matthew.  His cautionary tale to us wasn't that a False Messiah would fool us, it was that we would fool ourselves into thinking an ordinary man was something extraordinary here to save us.  Not to get too biblical, but anyone remember the Q-Source/Q-gospel from Matthew?  The False Messiah doesn't know much about the Qsource, just that the Qsource likes him very much.  

[Brisketexan 105061]

17 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I wish there was a different board for this. Philosophy or Religion or Philosophy/Religion.

For non-believers such as myself, you maybe don't realize how much this stuff is constantly in my face. It often has a strong in-group/out-group feel that I've always found off-putting. 

You in the club?

Yea

Great, man. 

Hey, new guy, how 'bout you.

Nah.

I'll pray for you. The club is the best. You're either in or out, and I hope you opt in! It will make your life great. 

There is so much presumption in that. I had a friendly chat with a Christian who came to the door last weekend. We went down the usual roads with me telling him over and over that arguments wouldn't work. Maybe he's right maybe he's not. If people find religion to be their path to a good and generous life, that's great. I'm doing fine without it. And, yes, I did ask for Jesus to come into my life back when I could be sincere about it and nada.

This is a news board where absurd lengths are sometimes taken to keep politics separate. It's odd that religion is welcome here instead. Now that I write that, I wonder if the inclinations are somehow connected. Don't challenge my politics. Don't challenge my religion. But the presence of a clear position on politics or religion is necessarily an opinion. Find a new place for fellowship, please don't claim space here.

My philosophy has simplified over the years into this: I don't care what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone and you don't make me watch. This sort of falls under making me watch. I'm not damaged, but I'm annoyed. 

Written with respect and without rancor.

 

Respect.  And that's definitely something that has always bugged me -- a general concept that it's some sort of club, and we smile when we find out someone else is a member, and frown if they say they aren't.

And maybe that's one place where my wife and I both differ from more conventional Christianity, many of the adherents to such would call us heretical for it: Christianity is A Way.  It's not THE Way.  And I think that's consistent with scripture:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."  When you look at "Me" as Christ, the person/being, then that sure sounds like you have to accept Christianity. 

But when you look at what Christ was -- living Torah -- then the scripture makes a whole lot more sense: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Torah." 

Do you live Torah?  From what you've shared on this board, you do (or, like all of us, you TRY).  You love your fellow man, you do not what is hateful.  Benevlolent to the poor?  Obligations to others?  Believe that we should not separate ourselves from community?  Torah (see Hillel -- yes, apocryphal and summary statements, but instructive and accurate nonetheless).  There are many who live Torah who do not click some magic box of "I accept Jesus -- that Jewish guy who lived in the Holy Land 2000 years ago -- was the living son of God, and if you don't believe in him, you don't get to heaven."  Yet, if the scripture is read to see Jesus as what he was, then they come to the Father, as they come through Torah.

And as an aside, as an attorney, that always chapped my ass.  What kind of legalistic, semantic asshole is God if He looks down at you, you lived Torah, but you didn't check the box "AGREE" where it says "Jesus is the Son of God, believe in Him or else"....and He says "oh....you ALMOST made it.  You just didn't check that ONE box"??  If that's who God is....fuck that guy, I don't think I want to spend eternity with him anyway. 

I deal with enough legalistic chickenshit here on earth in my day to day life, I don't need to spend eternity with an omnipotent petty bureaucrat who says "all your paperwork is in order, you've paid all the fees, but OH, shucks.....form 1129-A(c)(iii) has to be filled out in triplicate, and you only submitted duplicates.  Sorry, you're rejected.  And you only had once chance to get it right -- see you in hell!"  That's also utterly incompatible with the concept of Grace, by the way.

Maybe it's ironic, maybe it's not, but I loathe the ridiculous legalistic and exclusionary take on Christianity.  I look at the Great Commandment (and Hillel's commandment) as "The Constitution."  There can be as many statutes and regulations as you can imagine....but if they are inconsistent with or frustrate the clear stated purpose of that Constitution, then they are garbage, and should be tossed out as our our own Supreme Court tosses out unconstitutional laws.  "Love your neighbor" is the Constitution.  Any statute, no matter how much detail it goes to and how much it rationalizes, if it reaches the conclusion "but not those guys, they suck" is inconsistent with the Constitution.  As just one example of the thinking.

You're a good dude.  You live Torah.  I don't need to convert you, I don't need to proselytize.  Besides, the most effective proselytizing is to simply live by example.  You are walking a Way.  I am walking a Way.  We'll walk together.  If you see wisdom in the Way I walk, and importantly, in HOW I walk it (if I walk with sincerity, and grace), then maybe you'll walk that Way too.  The greatest evangelists are not those who preach, it's those who do.

[RollLeft 5040]

15 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think you have it wrong on brisket.  He's found Christ, he's just disgusted by many of the others who claim to have done so.  In large part because they found him, put him in the back of a drawer, and actively work to harm their fellow man.

And if so I would say he has basis to feel that way and is one of many who share similar feelings.

[Al_4_ISU 12451]

It's complicated.  Grew up in a heavy German Catholic community.  Church every Sunday, your family sat in the same pew they'd sat in for 80 years, etc.  I still attend some, but i don't take the Bible literally, and my view on Christ is a bit different.

I believe that God is Love in a very literal sense.  I view God less as an omniscient being, and more as the sum of all that's good.  I believe that Christ was more in touch with this than anyone whoever lived, and see the Bible as our best interpretation of his philosophy.  I think following his teachings is a great way to live.  I strive for that, but admittedly fall short on a daily basis.

Its complicated.

[RomaVicta 29902]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You're a good dude.  You live Torah.  I don't need to convert you, I don't need to proselytize.  Besides, the most effective proselytizing is to simply live by example.  You are walking a Way.  I am walking a Way.  We'll walk together.  If you see wisdom in the Way I walk, and importantly, in HOW I walk it (if I walk with sincerity, and grace), then maybe you'll walk that Way too.  The greatest evangelists are not those who preach, it's those who do.

We see this whole thing so similarly. Great post. Interestingly (I hope), I told the guy at my door last week that the best thing he was doing was the way he presented himself and represented what I could see of his beliefs. We wished each other well.

On the point about the Bible and rules, I watched a program on Austin Access back in the 80s. There was a diverse Christian audience with diverse Christian clergymen on stage. The first question was about the Bible's seeming limitations on who could enter heaven. How could God condemn non Christians?

The evangelicals quoted the Bible, and largely said it wasn't their job to question God. To an outsider, that's a devastatingly poor answer to the question and discredits Christianity. I'd used that argument myself.

The Catholic priest responded that the Bible is a guide for man not a restriction on God. God can do what He pleases and act as He pleases. It is not for men to dictate what will happen. The priest believed that God would not condemn non-Christians. That's a stunningly simple and brilliant answer that laid my old argument to rest. 

One other thought that I had over the years was how an all loving God could choose to send me to hell. I was pretty comfortable with that. One day driving my pick-up, I had a chilling thought: What if God is an Asshole? Still bugs me when I think of possible God scenarios.

Now, like you, I think, I wouldn't want to align with such a being. I wouldn't want to let fear dictate a principled decision. Then I look at a Hieronymous Bosch depiction and find the prospect most displeasing. I hope my resolve would hold up.

Thanks for the response, Brisket. Best wishes.

[Jatrain 288]

On 8/20/2020 at 10:23 PM, ztejas said:

Yes?

If they sound strange to you and not archaic enough it's because we've been using the same fucking names for 2,000 years. 

The gospels are anonymous. The attributions were added later (2nd centuryish). 

[Brisketexan 105061]

16 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

The Catholic priest responded that the Bible is a guide for man not a restriction on God. God can do what He pleases and act as He pleases. It is not for men to dictate what will happen. The priest believed that God would not condemn non-Christians. That's a stunningly simple and brilliant answer that laid my old argument to rest. 

That has definitely been something that has always bugged me about the fundamentalist takes -- they do an amazing job of putting God in a rigid box.  Again, that turns him into Edna at the front desk of the Department of Bureaucratic Assholery -- "I'm sorry sir, you did everything right -- perfectly, even -- but the rules strictly require that you submit form 1129-A(c)(iii) in triplicate, and you only submitted it in duplicate.  Your application is rejected, forever, and you cannot re-apply.  There's nothing I can do, my hands are tied, rules are rules."

That is at odds with Christianity being a Way, and God's gift being Grace.  The exchange instead should be "we all know you don't deserve to get in -- nobody does.  But I love you, and will let you in anyway -- do you want in?"  Now, it gets more complex in that you don't earn your way in, but by the same token, if you don't seek a Way, I don't think you ever get to that point of decision.  So, for you Roma, the other part of the question is "did you try to follow the Way?"  You have.  And just being on the path of the Way takes you to that decision point.

I don't attend Catholic church anymore (although I do from time to time), but it will always be my original home faith, and the Jesuits -- well, they helped make me who I am.  I've never forgotten the crusty, worldly old Jesuit priest my sophomore year; after theology class one day, I decided to be a good smartass 15 yr old and tell him the truth - "hey padre, I don't buy it."  "Buy what?"  "That Jesus was the son of God, the virgin birth - ANY of it."  He fucking GRINS -- "Good."  I'm disappointed I didn't piss him off.  "That means you're thinking about it.  We have enough Catholics who just believe.  We need more Catholics who think.  Good job, son."

Not only have I never forgotten it, it means a great deal to me.  It gave me freedom to doubt, to wonder, to question....which also means the freedom to seek, and find.  Instead of panicking about deviating from the straight path others would have me follow, I had the ability to breathe, and take different routes, finding amazing experiences, people, and truths along the way.  Always headed in the same ultimate direction, but perhaps it's the difference between rigidly refusing to take any path but the interstate, versus taking the back roads.  And by doing that, I got to meet people like you along the way.  I think that has been a good thing for both of us.

You might really enjoy this book -- it is ABSOLUTELY profane, and also absolutely sacred.  It's a take on Christ that is about the Way, told by an utterly flawed and fallen example of ourselves.  I mean, it contains the phrase "blessed are the dumbfucks."  And a Mary Magdalene you can't help but be in love with.  You gotta read it just for that phrase, though.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Brisketexan

[pch 1259]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

The shirt, my opinion, or your faith?  

Brisket---thanks for sharing.  I like where you wrote that your mind was blown when she told you that the Torah and the Gospels were one in the same.  I am constantly amazed to still meet people in mid-life that, mainly Catholics, that don't know the relationship between the Old Testament and the Torah, that they worship the Jewish God, and that their best buddy-Jesus, was born and raised a Jew, didn't eat pork or nuthin.  How the fuck does that not come up in your first 50 years in an organized Faith?  

The shirt-which is why I shortened your quote.

[Clintonaldo 2572]

I wish there was a different board for this. Philosophy or Religion or Philosophy/Religion.
For non-believers such as myself, you maybe don't realize how much this stuff is constantly in my face. It often has a strong in-group/out-group feel that I've always found off-putting. 
You in the club?
Yea
Great, man. 
Hey, new guy, how 'bout you.
Nah.
I'll pray for you. The club is the best. You're either in or out, and I hope you opt in! It will make your life great. 
There is so much presumption in that. I had a friendly chat with a Christian who came to the door last weekend. We went down the usual roads with me telling him over and over that arguments wouldn't work. Maybe he's right maybe he's not. If people find religion to be their path to a good and generous life, that's great. I'm doing fine without it. And, yes, I did ask for Jesus to come into my life back when I could be sincere about it and nada.
This is a news board where absurd lengths are sometimes taken to keep politics separate. It's odd that religion is welcome here instead. Now that I write that, I wonder if the inclinations are somehow connected. Don't challenge my politics. Don't challenge my religion. But the presence of a clear position on politics or religion is necessarily an opinion. Find a new place for fellowship, please don't claim space here.
My philosophy has simplified over the years into this: I don't care what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone and you don't make me watch. This sort of falls under making me watch. I'm not damaged, but I'm annoyed. 
Written with respect and without rancor.
 

I don’t care if you believe or not as that is your choice but you willingly clicked on a thread about Christ right ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RomaVicta 29902]

9 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

I don’t care if you believe or not as that is your choice but you willingly clicked on a thread about Christ right ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know. Maybe it was predestined by an immortal, omnipotent being and I had no real choice. I was compelled. I am but paper in the divine wind.

Maybe that's the same impetus for your charming and fresh response. We won't know until we die. 

Next time, work harder to gather the intent of the post that makes your knee jerk. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by RomaVicta

[Clintonaldo 2572]

I don't know. Maybe it was predestined by an immortal, omnipotent being and I had no real choice. I was compelled. I am but paper in the divine wind.
Maybe that's the same impetus for your charming and frest response. We won't know until we die. 
Next time, work harder to gather the intent of the post that makes your knee jerk.

I understand your need for insults and I am not mad at you. It was really brave of you to click on a thread you knew you would feel victimized in and hurl insults. Peace be with you my brother.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Nicole44 22057]

1 hour ago, Clintonaldo said:

I understand your need for insults and I am not mad at you. It was really brave of you to click on a thread you knew you would feel victimized in and hurl insults. Peace be with you my brother.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Carry the lantern. I will just say, my religion, make fun of it, which is cool. If there are people who absolutely suck and  have no conscience. They take advantage of it. 
 

the thing is y’all are all welcome. (Cue @Ramjet for Poltergeist)   
 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Nicole44

[Clintonaldo 2572]

16 minutes ago, Nicole44 said:

Carry the lantern. I will just say, my religion, make fun of it, which is cool. If there are people who absolutely suck and  have no conscience. They take advantage of it. 
 

the thing is y’all are all welcome. (Cue @Ramjet for Poltergeist)   
 

Love is love and if anyone is in the unfortunate situation of needing my help I will gladly do it whether you be a heathen or hell raiser. 

[Clintonaldo 2572]

10 hours ago, South Austin said:

Of all the pain in your thread, this was a joy to read. 

Prayer sent to an anonymous Surly asshole and his wife and child.

You don’t know how much I appreciate those words. I have had some shitty things in life happen but so has everyone. In some ways I treat religion like the military as in I keep my shoes clean and don’t ask questions. It is easy to keep the faith when everything goes your way but you really find out how much you believe in things when it gets tough. In reality I have a ton of questions and I believe in time they get answered. 

[Nicole44 22057]

On 8/20/2020 at 7:13 PM, Bernard said:

Loved Bull Durham. And love my many dear friends who are true blue JC believers. I always remind them that our beliefs aren’t so different. They think 2,999 of the known religions are complete BS. I just think the same of all 3,000.

Bernard

Who doesn’t love Bull Durham? The deal is you believe in God or you don’t. You can get pissed off. Be mad! Struggle with Him. It doesn’t matter who Or what you believe in. I will have your back

[Nicole44 22057]

On 8/20/2020 at 7:13 PM, Bernard said:

Loved Bull Durham. And love my many dear friends who are true blue JC believers. I always remind them that our beliefs aren’t so different. They think 2,999 of the known religions are complete BS. I just think the same of all 3,000.

Bernard

Who doesn’t love Bull Durham? The deal is you believe in God or you don’t. You can get pissed off. Be mad! Struggle with Him. It doesn’t matter who Or what you believe in. I will have your back

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

So in regards to my current dilemma of getting my kids out of the church... My stomach has been in knots since I found out the pastor was back in the pulpit (after 6 weeks), I've sought the word of God, counsel from another pastor, counsel from God fearing men, b/c I knew how the conversation would go when I finally brought it up to my wife.  For the record, I just want my kids out of there, and eventually my extended family (MIL, BIL+fam).  I do not care how the church handles the pastor.  That is between them and God.

I couldn't take it anymore, so I brought it up last night, and it was a huge blowup.  "He made a mistake! We have to forgive! The kids love that church! You try to control everything!"  To which I say, "I want my kids out of there. They can't be lead by a man you had an affair with."

I'm just going to keep it at that, b/c I could babble forever on the pleasantries of our exchange.  She will not forgive me for leading a godless life, marriage, family for 12 years, but she will forgive him immediately for tearing our family apart, from the pulpit no less. There is not an ounce of joy in her, a supposed believer, for me recommitting my life to God.  She has so much resentment built up towards me.

Anywho... brothers and sisters, please pray for me and my wife and my family.  Pray that #1 we will both seek what God wants first and foremost. That our hearts are filled with scripture, and a love based on what Christ exemplified. #2 that we are ready and willing to build a marriage built on the love and passion that Christ has for us, and eager to share that with each other.

God bless all of you

[Bookman 4638]

So do y'all believe in the rapture?

[Enchubben 5510]

Can someone help me high level understand the catholic no meat Friday deal?

Brother in law whom I love like an actual brother, complete degenerate in many ways, but also very catholic, (Odd to me that you can be both, but whatever) is super strict on the not eating red meat on Friday, which is starting to become a pain in the ass. 

Why the selective choosing of practices, and of all the ones to follow, why this one? 

[TwiceHorn 31438]

6 minutes ago, Bookman said:

So do y'all believe in the rapture?

I don't know.  It's not particularly relevant to my life and faith, so I don't spend much time on it.  My faith doesn't require me to take the Bible literally.  However, most things in the Bible are there for some reason, whether allegorical or literal.  So I don't wholly dismiss it.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

23 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

Can someone help me high level understand the catholic no meat Friday deal?

Brother in law whom I love like an actual brother, complete degenerate in many ways, but also very catholic, (Odd to me that you can be both, but whatever) is super strict on the not eating red meat on Friday, which is starting to become a pain in the ass. 

Why the selective choosing of practices, and of all the ones to follow, why this one? 

The Friday "fast" is just in remembrance of the Last Supper on Good Friday and is a form of "penance," a miniature Lent, if you will.  It used to be more common in some prod denominations, like Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Methodists (stated in order of degrees of "removal" from the RCC).

In some respects, maybe all of them, Catholicism developed with a learned clergy and extremely ignorant parishioners.  Therefore, it became kind of legalistic or rule-bound:  a prescription for faith and Christian life that any idiot could follow by doing what his/her priest said to do.  As brisket alluded to, it didn't often encourage much thought about faith issues.  So I see a lot of things like that being sort of relics of the ancient church, when a huge portion of the followers couldn't read or even obtain a Bible, for example.

There's even a term for Catholics that pick and choose what they want:  cafeteria Catholics.  An apt term for probably any religious adherent, but more common among Catholics.  As to why people latch on to what they latch on to, people are incomprehensible.

I used to think the rule-y, dogmatic aspects of Catholicism were really dumb, for lack of a better term.  However, as I have grown as a person, I realize that all faith is kind of an on-again, off-again proposition.  We stray.  The Catholic "program" is "designed" to get people back to church and back to a more Christian life:  to minimize opportunities to stray and to reel you back in when you do stray.  In that sense, it's rather brilliant.

Also, I used to have serious qualms about "intercession," or the need for a priest or clergy and saints to communicate with God.  At a philosophical level, I still do.  At a practical level, though, seeing what congregational churches (without clergy qualified by anyone other than the congregation), and Islam (similar problem) get up to, I can see the value in involving qualified clergy heavily in faith pursuits.

Edited August 23, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Enchubben 5510]

Cafeteria Catholic lol! That’s it. Nailed it. Dude can be the most heinous human being, then turn around and lift his nose to grilling a steak on Friday evening.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

1 hour ago, ernest_t_bass said:

So in regards to my current dilemma of getting my kids out of the church... My stomach has been in knots since I found out the pastor was back in the pulpit (after 6 weeks), I've sought the word of God, counsel from another pastor, counsel from God fearing men, b/c I knew how the conversation would go when I finally brought it up to my wife.  For the record, I just want my kids out of there, and eventually my extended family (MIL, BIL+fam).  I do not care how the church handles the pastor.  That is between them and God.

I couldn't take it anymore, so I brought it up last night, and it was a huge blowup.  "He made a mistake! We have to forgive! The kids love that church! You try to control everything!"  To which I say, "I want my kids out of there. They can't be lead by a man you had an affair with."

I'm just going to keep it at that, b/c I could babble forever on the pleasantries of our exchange.  She will not forgive me for leading a godless life, marriage, family for 12 years, but she will forgive him immediately for tearing our family apart, from the pulpit no less. There is not an ounce of joy in her, a supposed believer, for me recommitting my life to God.  She has so much resentment built up towards me.

Anywho... brothers and sisters, please pray for me and my wife and my family.  Pray that #1 we will both seek what God wants first and foremost. That our hearts are filled with scripture, and a love based on what Christ exemplified. #2 that we are ready and willing to build a marriage built on the love and passion that Christ has for us, and eager to share that with each other.

God bless all of you

I think this is one of those issues where you might be trying to control.  Don't know how old your kids are, but if they are informed and making an informed, if immature decision to stay in that church, then you need to let it go.  Of course parenting is all about control, in some respects, so I'm not 100% where to draw the line on that.

I'm glad your faith is giving you some solace in dealing with this.  But I'm thinking that you just need to "sweep your side of the street" and let the rest go and see where it all leads.  Consider whether you are trying to use your faith to bend others to your will under the guise of it being God's will as well (and it very well might be, but you can't bend anyone to God's will anymore than you can your own).

Edited August 23, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Anastasis 23458]

What do you have against a friday catfish fry?

[RomaVicta 29902]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

The Friday "fast" is just in remembrance of the Last Supper on Good Friday and is a form of "penance," a miniature Lent, if you will.  It used to be more common in some prod denominations, like Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Methodists (stated in order of degrees of "removal" from the RCC).

In some respects, maybe all of them, Catholicism developed with a learned clergy and extremely ignorant parishioners.  Therefore, it became kind of legalistic or rule-bound:  a prescription for faith and Christian life that any idiot could follow by doing what his/her priest said to do.  As brisket alluded to, it didn't often encourage much thought about faith issues.  So I see a lot of things like that being sort of relics of the ancient church, when a huge portion of the followers couldn't read or even obtain a Bible, for example.

There's even a term for Catholics that pick and choose what they want:  cafeteria Catholics.  An apt term for probably any religious adherent, but more common among Catholics.  As to why people latch on to what they latch on to, people are incomprehensible.

I used to think the rule-y, dogmatic aspects of Catholicism were really dumb, for lack of a better term.  However, as I have grown as a person, I realize that all faith is kind of an on-again, off-again proposition.  We stray.  The Catholic "program" is "designed" to get people back to church and back to a more Christian life:  to minimize opportunities to stray and to reel you back in when you do stray.  In that sense, it's rather brilliant.

Also, I used to have serious qualms about "intercession," or the need for a priest or clergy and saints to communicate with God.  At a philosophical level, I still do.  At a practical level, though, seeing what congregational churches (without clergy qualified by anyone other than the congregation), and Islam (similar problem) get up to, I can see the value in involving qualified clergy heavily in faith pursuits.

After 9/11, I thought about what we could have done to calmed the absolute commitment the Islamic terrorists had to attacking us. It led me back to thinking about people doing what they think God has told them to do. How can they consider doing otherwise if they believe whole heartedly?

I reached the conclusion that day not to denigrate religious hypocrisy. Without hypocrisy the revealed religions are intolerable. By all means, pick and choose. Yes, I'll be nice to people. No, I think I'll skip the intolerance bits.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

10 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

After 9/11, I thought about what we could have done to calmed the absolute commitment the Islamic terrorists had to attacking us. It led me back to thinking about people doing what they think God has told them to do. How can they consider doing otherwise if they believe whole heartedly?

I reached the conclusion that day not to denigrate religious hypocrisy. Without hypocrisy the revealed religions are intolerable. By all means, pick and choose. Yes, I'll be nice to people. No, I think I'll skip the intolerance bits.

Yeah, people left to their own devices will corrupt even the best things with fear and other human foibles.  They need some guidance on what to choose.  And that guidance needs to come from someone that isn't popularly appointed to ratify the foibles.

[ernest_t_bass 1196]

4 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think this is one of those issues where you might be trying to control.  Don't know how old your kids are, but if they are informed and making an informed, if immature decision to stay in that church, then you need to let it go.  Of course parenting is all about control, in some respects, so I'm not 100% where to draw the line on that.

I'm glad your faith is giving you some solace in dealing with this.  But I'm thinking that you just need to "sweep your side of the street" and let the rest go and see where it all leads.  Consider whether you are trying to use your faith to bend others to your will under the guise of it being God's will as well (and it very well might be, but you can't bend anyone to God's will anymore than you can your own).

Aside from God's will. My will. Etc.  My kids can't be taught the word of God by someone their mother had an affair with.  If the husband has an affair with the babysitter, you don't still keep taking your kids to the same babysitter.

[gsoda3 3245]

Aside from God's will. My will. Etc.  My kids can't be taught the word of God by someone their mother had an affair with.  If the husband has an affair with the babysitter, you don't still keep taking your kids to the same babysitter.

At our church this would be taken to the elders. And he would be permanently outta the pulpit at the very least. If he doesn't repent, he would be disassociated from the church body. Praying for you brother.

[TwiceHorn 31438]

53 minutes ago, ernest_t_bass said:

Aside from God's will. My will. Etc.  My kids can't be taught the word of God by someone their mother had an affair with.  If the husband has an affair with the babysitter, you don't still keep taking your kids to the same babysitter.

I don't disagree that it's a deplorable situation.  You're not wrong about that. And it does not seem that he should be in a position of leadership at your church, regardless.  But, congregational, man.  

But you are, ultimately, trying to control the behavior of others.  Just food for thought.

Also, and this is most un-Christian, but your wife sounds like she really needs Jesus in a bad way.

Edited August 23, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[Clintonaldo 2572]

29 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't disagree that it's a deplorable situation.  You're not wrong about that. And it does not seem that he should be in a position of leadership at your church, regardless.  But, congregational, man.  

But you are, ultimately, trying to control the behavior of others.  Just food for thought.

Also, and this is most un-Christian, but your wife sounds like she really needs Jesus in a bad way.

This is such a great thread I don’t want to comment on what I think his wife needs. And just like that I have failed again. I really am pulling for you Mr. Bass and respect it. 

[F250 28764]

On 8/20/2020 at 10:16 PM, Mole said:

I agree. The concepts surrounding things like “once saved, always saved” render flat the depth of scripture. There’s too much biblical discussion of people falling away, endurance to the end, working out salvation with fear and trembling, etc. to boil it down to trite truisms like this.

The “once saved, always saved” crowd often tries to wave this away with something about people falling away having never been saved in the first place, but that seems like a distinction without a difference.

OSAS is the Fischer Price of Christian theology. It's a watered down version of Perseverance of the Saints without the Perseverance part or the logical consequence of Determinism that is required.

As for the rest of Christianity that supports free will, we understand that there is a sanctification process that requires work by the believer.

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by F250

[Mole 4330]

9 hours ago, Bookman said:

So do y'all believe in the rapture?

Fab Five Freddy told me everybody's fly
DJ spinning I said "My My"
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
François c'est pas, Flash ain't no dude

[TwiceHorn 31438]

2 hours ago, F250 said:

OSAS is the Fischer Price of Christian theology. It's a watered down version of Perseverance of the Saints without the Perseverance part or the logical consequence of Determinism that is required.

As for the rest of Christianity that supports free will, we understand that there is a sanctification process that requires work by the believer.

 

Refreshing myself on the history of these things, it makes me kind of wonder if Calvinists/Lutherans at least partially came up with it as a further repudiation or thumb in the eye of the Catholic Church.

[David Dennison 18848]

I don't believe in God. I don't mind if you do, just keep it to yourself, like Christ taught.

[F250 28764]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Refreshing myself on the history of these things, it makes me kind of wonder if Calvinists/Lutherans at least partially came up with it as a further repudiation or thumb in the eye of the Catholic Church.

I do believe that part of the theology developed during the Reformation was simply reactionary ideas against the Catholic church. Sola Scriptura is a good example. I read a paper by an Orthodox theologian on Original Sin and he briefly touched on Total Depravity in a very dismissive manner. Referred to it as Protestants arguing with Augustine without realizing that they were really arguing with Plato. It was pretty humorous because he implied what you just said.

The English Reformation was much more nuanced than the Protestant Reformation which is why Anglicans and Methodists share many similarities with the RCC and Orthodox. The English didn't take the throw the baby out with the bathwater approach.

 

 

[Brew 3049]

48 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I don't believe in God. I don't mind if you do, just keep it to yourself, like Christ taught.

Thanks for coming to the thread about Christ followers and telling us you don’t believe in God while asking us not to tell you that we do. Seems strange, you don’t have to click on all the threads but next time someone talks to you about God just pretend they clicked on the thread tilted “we don’t believe” even though they didn’t need to in real life.

Me and God are in a little bit of a strange place right now. There is a lot going on in this world that makes me question my beliefs regularly at this point. There aren’t as many things that reassure those beliefs as what was there in the past. We haven’t been in church since March with the whole Covid issue, but we started back last week. I’m hoping that settles my thoughts some as I think being in church and community groups weekly helps the path stay lit better than not being there.

We did not go to church growing up, but when we had kids we felt called to start attending. We haven’t looked back in those 15 years until recently which we need to work on.

[F250 28764]

7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

After 9/11, I thought about what we could have done to calmed the absolute commitment the Islamic terrorists had to attacking us.

My first thought was we should probably stop stirring shit up in the Middle East and military intervention will worsen the situation. The religious aspect is just a political tool to be used to fight against Western influence in the Middle East.

A suicide bomber is just a poor man's missile. If you can't fire a cruise missile from an aircraft carrier just convince someone to deliver the explosives on their person. The religion isn't the problem, pissing off a bunch of people that want to blow you up is the problem.

 

[Sawbonz 27536]

12 hours ago, ernest_t_bass said:

So in regards to my current dilemma of getting my kids out of the church... My stomach has been in knots since I found out the pastor was back in the pulpit (after 6 weeks), I've sought the word of God, counsel from another pastor, counsel from God fearing men, b/c I knew how the conversation would go when I finally brought it up to my wife.  For the record, I just want my kids out of there, and eventually my extended family (MIL, BIL+fam).  I do not care how the church handles the pastor.  That is between them and God.

I couldn't take it anymore, so I brought it up last night, and it was a huge blowup.  "He made a mistake! We have to forgive! The kids love that church! You try to control everything!"  To which I say, "I want my kids out of there. They can't be lead by a man you had an affair with."

I'm just going to keep it at that, b/c I could babble forever on the pleasantries of our exchange.  She will not forgive me for leading a godless life, marriage, family for 12 years, but she will forgive him immediately for tearing our family apart, from the pulpit no less. There is not an ounce of joy in her, a supposed believer, for me recommitting my life to God.  She has so much resentment built up towards me.

Anywho... brothers and sisters, please pray for me and my wife and my family.  Pray that #1 we will both seek what God wants first and foremost. That our hearts are filled with scripture, and a love based on what Christ exemplified. #2 that we are ready and willing to build a marriage built on the love and passion that Christ has for us, and eager to share that with each other.

God bless all of you

ETB I’m really sorry to hear this. I’ve followed your exploits for years now and you seem to be getting things straightened out. I do have to say though your posts in this thread remind me of this old joke 

 

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

 

 I think the affair w the preacher man is your helicopter

 

 

 

 

[Uncle Boobs 1248]

On 8/21/2020 at 9:07 PM, Clintonaldo said:

Our anniversary was a few weeks later and things were pretty much back to normal. Things are going good and we both have great jos and friends. I am even lucky enough to snag a little muff on our anniversary. Things continue to roll on for about 6 weeks and everything is great. We are happy and our dogs are healthy and what more could we want

Nice work man.   Did you tell your wife?

 

[Clintonaldo 2572]

Just now, Uncle Boobs said:

Nice work man.   Did you tell your wife?

 

I saw no reason to ruin what was a nice night!

[Clintonaldo 2572]

1 minute ago, Uncle Boobs said:

Nice work man.   Did you tell your wife?

 

Also, would you like to be a God Uncle uncle B?

[PRONG HORN 3135]

On 8/22/2020 at 2:21 PM, Jatrain said:

The gospels are anonymous. The attributions were added later (2nd centuryish). 

 

Why were they first translated into Greek?  Where are the original copies?  

What are the attributions?

 

 

[Anastasis 23458]

16 minutes ago, F250 said:

My first thought was we should probably stop stirring shit up in the Middle East and military intervention will worsen the situation. The religious aspect is just a political tool to be used to fight against Western influence in the Middle East.

A suicide bomber is just a poor man's missile. If you can't fire a cruise missile from an aircraft carrier just convince someone to deliver the explosives on their person. The religion isn't the problem, pissing off a bunch of people that want to blow you up is the problem.

 

They hate us for our freedom and jesus. 

[David Dennison 18848]

33 minutes ago, Brew said:

Thanks for coming to the thread about Christ followers and telling us you don’t believe in God while asking us not to tell you that we do. Seems strange, you don’t have to click on all the threads but next time someone talks to you about God just pretend they clicked on the thread tilted “we don’t believe” even though they didn’t need to in real life.

Me and God are in a little bit of a strange place right now. There is a lot going on in this world that makes me question my beliefs regularly at this point. There aren’t as many things that reassure those beliefs as what was there in the past. We haven’t been in church since March with the whole Covid issue, but we started back last week. I’m hoping that settles my thoughts some as I think being in church and community groups weekly helps the path stay lit better than not being there.

We did not go to church growing up, but when we had kids we felt called to start attending. We haven’t looked back in those 15 years until recently which we need to work on.

You're welcome.