Do We Have a Christ Followers Thread?

[Trey3216 15347]

Don’t know why @MissingInAction feels the need to have a third term abortion on this thread, but I’ll be praying for him too.  
 

dude, stop shitting on this thread, and negging posts like the one from ET.B directly above this.  Maybe just steer clear from this thread altogether.   It’s clearly not directed toward you, so just let it, and those of us who celebrate the same way, be.  

[nineliveslost 2782]

17 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Don’t know why @MissingInAction feels the need to have a third term abortion on this thread, but I’ll be praying for him too.  
 

dude, stop shitting on this thread, and negging posts like the one from ET.B directly above this.  Maybe just steer clear from this thread altogether.   It’s clearly not directed toward you, so just let it, and those of us who celebrate the same way, be.  

agree. I don't mind people being assholes, but I find it humorous and contemptable when people try too hard to be an asshole. 

Screams a little bit of "please please notice me" 

oh and God bless everyone , including the people who try too hard to be assholes 

[Clintonaldo 2574]

I really love this thread and have had time to think since my first response and want to say more but not sure what to say. 
Is it ok to say I love Christ but hate church? I mean I go and I will credit my own church in that they do not judge people but I see so many people that call themselves Christians and I want to cringe. It also then makes me wonder what my church members are doing when I don’t see? That also makes me wonder am I being a hypocrite for judging people who judge people when the Bible is against condemnation?
I don’t know where else to put this but I feel like typing.
 
I have posted before that my father attempted suicide January 26th 2016 and didn’t accomplish what he wanted to accomplish. He now resides in a home where he is blind and has the mental capacity of a 5 year old. For the first 7 months I was driving 5 hours one way to see him every weekend. Some visits were for an hour and sometimes he was asleep but I had to go see him as his only child. 
Also, on the same day my father chose his path my stepfather died of cancer. He was an incredible man who was awarded a Purple Heart. He treated my mother like a queen and was a true prince of a man. I watched him fight for over a year a fight that we all knew he would lose. It was hell and completely unfair.
I will say during that day that I became closer to God. I never once said why me. I do remember saying I know God will not give me more than I can handle but I really wish he didn’t trust me so much. 
 
I will now fast forward 4 years to now. I posted about surviving an F4 tornado on Easter Sunday. The whole day I had a bad feeling seeing that the storms were coming from the south as that is always bad in Tennessee. Long story short is we got into the hallway bath just in time and surrendered to God. We could see the roof about to break away from the house and I told my wife we have done all we can do and it’s out of our hands. It was over in 10 seconds but really humbled us. 
Our anniversary was a few weeks later and things were pretty much back to normal. Things are going good and we both have great jos and friends. I am even lucky enough to snag a little muff on our anniversary. Things continue to roll on for about 6 weeks and everything is great. We are happy and our dogs are healthy and what more could we want?
I have always wanted children and my wife always said she didn’t. I thought it was a phase and she would snap out of it but as the years went on I learned that it might not be a phase and what a shame it would be as I have seen how well she treats our pups and what a phenomenal mother she would be. I had actually started to build some resentment but I kept it buried. I thought my wife didn’t want kids because she thought she couldn’t have kids. She had some issues and a surgery back in 2016 ( same year of dad and stepdad) and we were told we should let the dream of kids go.
Well, one week in May on Wednesday I woke up around 2 am to let the dogs out ( ruff, ruff, ruff) and couldn’t get back to sleep and my mind started wondering. I started thinking about children and how it obviously wasn’t going to happen and I surrendered myself to God and said I accept what you give me and I am thankful for what I have with my wife. I stayed that Saturday night at the lake and when I came home the next morning I noticed my wife following me around the house. I get to my closet and there is a book in it. The book was Your Baby’s First Words Will Be Dadda. I didn’t get it at first and was annoyed that it was in my way but then I see her with big tears in her eyes and she says “You’re going to be a daddy”. I fall to my knees with joy as I cannot believe I will be a first time dad at 40!
I make the mistake of looking up miscarriage stats and immediatly go down a dark road thinking I got my hopes up for nothing. I am a nervous wreck for 2 weeks and I cannot sleep or eat but my wife is calm and not worried. She has such a calming grace about her during this time. We go to doctor and get the due date. The date is the same day of my father and step father. We both start crying and I finally feel like this will happen.  I just don’t think it’s a coincidence. You can call me a sheep or whatever but I thankful for the life God has given me and I will praise him in the good times and in the bad. We are well aware the rug could be pulled out from us at any moment but I will give God the glory either way. 
 
We are at 19 weeks and I would appreciate any and all prayers!

Hey dick head. You made it!




I don’t deserve these things but I will take them. Just got home from hospital 2 hours ago and couldn’t think of a better thread to put this in




A healthy baby boy named Carter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trey3216 15347]

1 hour ago, Clintonaldo said:

Hey dick head. You made it!




I don’t deserve these things but I will take them. Just got home from hospital 2 hours ago and couldn’t think of a better thread to put this in




A healthy baby boy named Carter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Congrats man!!! What a blessing indeed.  They are tiring, frustrating, and eardrum shattering, but they are the most amazing thing in the world.  What a blessing indeed.  

[Trey3216 15347]

On 9/26/2020 at 7:11 AM, Trey3216 said:

Could use some prayers right now.   Wife and I checked into BSW-Waco on Thursday to prep for Inducing our first baby, a sweet little girl.  Well, she was born yesterday at 1:26PM.  Beautiful, strong little girl that is healthy but for one thing.   We found out after about 2.5 hours that she has esophageal atresia, and that she was gonna have to go to Temple to NICU for surgery as soon possible.   So I had to leave the wife at 5:45/6ish yesterday in recovery and head to Temple with the daughter (damn if that’s not some mind-bending, difficult shit).   Got to speak with the surgeons last night and they’re looking at a Monday surgery (uggh), and quite a battery of tests today.   I stayed with her until about 1:45 last night, and am back em route to NICU rt now.   Got 5 hours of uninterrupted sleep somehow, but I had been up for over 24 hours at that point and that was after sleeping for about 2 hours each on Wed and Thurs night.    
 

So, I just need prayers.  For my daughter, first and foremost, that she’ll continue being the scrappy little thing she’s been the entire process. Kicking, screaming fighting machine with an iron grip of a hand for a little baby girl.  
 

for the surgeons, that they can complete a successful and ultimately not too invasive surgery on her, which will help her recover quickly and effficiently.  
 

for my wife, because she’s hurting deeply.  Her first baby taken from her arms and rushed away.   The hurt in her voice last night was enough to make the strongest men break down.   
 

for me.  Because I’m that strongest of men, but that little girl already got me scrambling to break walls down for her, and I have to be able to break walls and setup “afternoon tea”.  I just need some prayers for my sanity that I can keep mama emotionally and physically ok (with her history of seizures under stress), stay with the baby as much I can possibly stay awake, and keep my house in order financially all at the same time.   I’ll be under a tremendous amount of stress for a while, and I know I’ll be ok, but with the Good Lord on our side, all things are possible.     
 

 

Reflecting on a time where I was confused, scared, and determined all at once.  My sweet baby girl is 2 years old today!!!  2 major surgeries and 14 lower esophageal dilations and you’d never suspect anything was ever wrong with her.   What a trooper.  
 

 

[Post Oak 20239]

43 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Reflecting on a time where I was confused, scared, and determined all at once.  My sweet baby girl is 2 years old today!!!  2 major surgeries and 14 lower esophageal dilations and you’d never suspect anything was ever wrong with her.   What a trooper.  
 

 

Well done man.  Well fuckin done.

[SHOOTER12 8810]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:47 AM, David Dennison said:

A Christian talking about intellectual dishonesty will never not be funny.

Burning in he'll isn't funny either,  yet you seem OK with it.  Why don't you take your hatred back to the CR where it's celebrated. 

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

All you non-Christ followers better stay the fuck clear. This thread is for the Prince of Peace, assholes.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Degenerate Gardner

[bmbmd 1027]

His grace is sufficient.  Chill-and try to be nice to each other. 

[tx 3 putt 76987]

On 9/25/2022 at 7:26 PM, Trey3216 said:

Reflecting on a time where I was confused, scared, and determined all at once.  My sweet baby girl is 2 years old today!!!  2 major surgeries and 14 lower esophageal dilations and you’d never suspect anything was ever wrong with her.   What a trooper.  
 

 

 

that's a tough kid !!!

 

 

[Trey3216 15347]

11 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

that's a tough kid !!!

 

 

I’m tellin ya.   She’s also smart as hell, funny, and can be the sweetest thing you’d ever see.  I’m a lucky man.  

[MeerkatBong 115]

God bless you all! His Grace is sufficient, indeed.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

11 hours ago, MeerkatBong said:

God bless you all! His Grace is sufficient, indeed.

Absolutely right.  None of us deserve His grace.  Only thing we must do is accept Him and His grace.

[F250 28777]

5 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Absolutely right.  None of us deserve His grace.  Only thing we must do is accept Him and His grace.

Grace is irresistible for the determined elect, acceptance implies choice which denigrates the Sovereignty of God.

[texasdago 7575]

Just here to say that over the past 6 years, the behavior much of the Church has kept me away from church as many who claim to be Christians have become hate-filled, lacking in compassion and quite unpleasant in a very vocal manner.  I think the Church has negatively impacted its witness in a way that, at least in the US, is most likely irreversible.   Not to mention some of the scandals that have made their way through the Southern Baptist Convention.   Done a great job of turning off many Christians like me. 

Ok... that's all. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by texasdago

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, F250 said:

Grace is irresistible for the determined elect, acceptance implies choice which denigrates the Sovereignty of God.

Is this what you believe, or are you simply stating the Calvinist view?  I thought you favored Arminianism. 

[South Austin 52518]

10 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Just here to say that over the past 6 years, the behavior much of the Church has kept me away from church as many who claim to be Christians have become hate-filled, lacking in compassion and quite unpleasant in a very vocal manner.  I think the Church has negatively impacted its witness in a way that, at least in the US, is most likely irreversible.   Not to mention some of the scandals that have made their way through the Southern Baptist Convention.   Done a great job of turning off many Christians like me. 

Ok... that's all. 

hesrightyouknow.jpg

It's incredibly frustrating to see humans fuck up Christianity in a way that continues to tarnish the reputation of the Church (and by capital "Church" I mean the universal body of those who strive to follow Christ, in whatever denomination) and drive more people away.  But we always ruin a good thing, whether it's religion, the environment, or the original Coca-Cola formula.

I just hope that there continues to be enough people, both religious leaders and they laity, who can communicate a difference between Christianity in its truest intended form -- i.e., how Christ lived his life and taught others to live through his actual words and deeds as recounted in the New Testament -- and the bastardization and politicization of that ideal by those who foster hatred, bigotry, division, and subjugation.  Unfortunately, many see the latter and associate it with Christianity and organized religion at its core and its roots.

[BrickHorn 18237]

3 minutes ago, South Austin said:

But we always ruin a good thing, whether it's religion

[F250 28777]

4 minutes ago, axiom of foundation said:

Is this what you believe, or are you simply stating the Calvinist view?  I thought you favored Arminianism. 

Just stating the Calvinist view.

[texasdago 7575]

"I just hope that there continues to be enough people, both religious leaders and they laity, who can communicate a difference between Christianity in its truest intended form -- i.e., how Christ lived his life and taught others to live through his actual words and deeds as recounted in the New Testament -- and the bastardization and politicization of that ideal by those who foster hatred, bigotry, division, and subjugation.  Unfortunately, many see the latter and associate it with Christianity and organized religion at its core and its roots."

 

This... I know quite a few people that live a Christ-like life and are wonderful but they attend churches surrounded by people who claim to be Christians, put on a big show and yet act in downright hateful ways.  Guess who gets all the attention?  The rotten "Christians".  Reminds me of Matthew 7:20-23.

This... this has become the modern church...

"

^{Matthew 6:5} “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. ⁷ “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

 

[YGIFS 19450]

Some good stuff in here, I don't usually come by this thread out an extreme disdain for organized religion.  I still consider myself someone who believes in a God and tries to follow the teachings of a dark-skinned Jew who liked to fish with his friends, and do magic tricks with them in/around Galilee.  To the points of some above me, of course we took it and fucked it up.  We made about Us v. Them, in all its incarnations.  But to be fair to Christianity, almost other faiths of the world do that at some point.  But to be fair to them, we are really having a fucking moment in Western Christianity right now of totally misinterpreting Jesus in order to punish those we think walk an unacceptable path.

I am a quarter Jewish, and was raised Lutheran on my German-Austrian side (no shock there).  And those two faiths guide a good bit of the spiritual side of my life.  The rest comes from being a member/parishioner of my wife's Catholic Church (I am not a convert though, to be clear).  And I've been looking for more meaning in our parish as my oldest is going through 2nd grade indoctrination, or what they more politely refer to as "Faith Formation."  And also because of some other shit I'm working through IRL.  And the more I listen to Evangelical, Baptist, and Cowboy Churches...the more I am taken aback that in my 40's......the Catholic Church is now the voice of reason in my spiritual life.  Even with regard to abortion, my parish has it toned down to basically just adding a prayer for the unborn between homily and collection.  I've watched those sermons online of Evangelical, Baptist, and Cowboy Churches and it's so much goddamn noise.  So much judgement, and condemnation, and fear-mongering.  I don't know how the fuck people do it.  It all sounds like a dark ages cult.  

Anyway, that I'm now considering converting to Catholicism after everything they did to Italian, Irish, and Polish friends of mine growing up in Chicago...says something about the state of Protestantism in the United States right now.  It's mainly for a deeper connection with my wife, daughters, and spiritual health for recovery.  But also to avoid the cancerous rancor going on in so much of our country right now.  How you can read the New Testament and walk away with a "pull yourself up your bootstraps and trans people are bad" as the two talking points is fucking beyond me.  Getting more deeply involved at our Catholic parish already has me volunteering again, meditating more, recognizing sins of omission instead of my usual ones of commission as before.  It helps that our particular parish is named for a saint who was admired by two German priests who dared to defy Naziism and were executed as a result.  Their stance towards hatred, ignorance, and nationalism is what inspired our priest to join the cloth decades ago.  And they are all Jesuits, the keepers of the light of knowledge and stand guard against ignorance and intolerance.  

It's another connection to my family, it's a call to be of more tolerance and service, it's helping me keep my own shit together, and it makes me feel like a flawed man who is at least trying to live a little more like Jesus, and not some of the assholes who came after him claiming to be sent by the man himself.  

last note---speaking with a Southern Baptist friend at a political event the other day and asking him about the continual unfolding sexual molestation scandal...and he still comes back with the usual talking about how there's no central leadership, no central coverup, etc.  Just because your leaders and you keep repeating the same bullshit talking point, doesn't make it true.  When your defense against systemic rape of boys, is your Org Chart as primary admonition...you got fucking problems.  /rant

Edited September 27, 2022 by YGIFS

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

49 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Just here to say that over the past 6 years, the behavior much of the Church has kept me away from church as many who claim to be Christians have become hate-filled, lacking in compassion and quite unpleasant in a very vocal manner.  I think the Church has negatively impacted its witness in a way that, at least in the US, is most likely irreversible.   Not to mention some of the scandals that have made their way through the Southern Baptist Convention.   Done a great job of turning off many Christians like me. 

Ok... that's all. 

The church is made up of fallable human beings who get it wrong a lot of times?  You don't say. Shocking. 

I'm not hand waving that away. I'm saying the answer is to do better not to eject. But yeah, this isn't a failing of the church this is literally the human condition.   

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

On 9/25/2022 at 7:26 PM, Trey3216 said:

Reflecting on a time where I was confused, scared, and determined all at once.  My sweet baby girl is 2 years old today!!!  2 major surgeries and 14 lower esophageal dilations and you’d never suspect anything was ever wrong with her.   What a trooper.  
 

 

I love the bottom picture with the expression on her face. It's like- I have no time for this nonsense mixed with exasperation and grudging tolerance. I know this look b/c I've gotten it from every woman in my life on many an occasion. 

[texasdago 7575]

14 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The church is made up of fallable human beings who get it wrong a lot of times?  You don't say. Shocking. 

I'm not hand waving that away. I'm saying the answer is to do better not to eject. But yeah, this isn't a failing of the church this is literally the human condition.   

When it is systematically founded and when a churches are fueling this through their sermons and actions, then those churches are the root of the problem.  Yeah, its better to eject.  Sorry.  

...and unfortunately more and more people see the church aligned with lovely folks like this who are big fans of using imagery of a fascia.  I guess at least they're not hiding it anymore although they won't show their face.  Must be Covid. 

Note: That was the Houston area this past week.  What will people key in on besides crazy spittle-laden signs?  The use of Scripture to justify their actions.

So... I'm going to drop this topic b/c I know its going too far over into CR territory but this is why people are being turned off by many in the body of Christ.

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

4 minutes ago, texasdago said:

When it is systematically founded and when a churches are fueling this through their sermons and actions, then those churches are the root of the problem.  Yeah, its better to eject.  Sorry.  

...and unfortunately more and more people see the church aligned with lovely folks like this who are big fans of using imagery of a fascia.  I guess at least they're not hiding it anymore although they won't show their face.  Must be Covid. 

Note: That was the Houston area this past week.  What will people key in on besides crazy spittle-laden signs?  The use of Scripture to justify their actions.

So... I'm going to drop this topic b/c I know its going too far over into CR territory but this is why people are being turned off by many in the body of Christ.

That's the only church in America, right? No other choice but to eject. And the church is the only organization that demonstrates even the slightest bit of hypocricy. 

Like I said man- it's the human condition. It's everywhere.  You can't have an organization made up of humans that doesn't suffer from a disconnect between what they aspire to be and what they actually are. 

[texasdago 7575]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That's the only church in America, right? No other choice but to eject. And the church is the only organization that demonstrates even the slightest bit of hypocricy. 

Like I said man- it's the human condition. It's everywhere.  You can't have an organization made up of humans that doesn't suffer from a disconnect between what they aspire to be and what they actually are. 

Hypocrisy is everywhere.  Hypocrisy by those who claim to stand on a foundation of morality and right vs wrong is abhorrent.  You can try to say, "other people do it, too" but that doesn't change that the Christian church is increasingly making itself seen as unwelcoming and borderline aggressive.  Whataboutism doesn't play with me.  

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

1 minute ago, texasdago said:

Hypocrisy is everywhere.  Hypocrisy by those who claim to stand on a foundation of morality and right vs wrong is abhorrent.  You can try to say, "other people do it, too" but that doesn't change that the Christian church is increasingly making itself seen as unwelcoming and borderline aggressive.  Whataboutism doesn't play with me.  

It’s not whataboutism. It’s a fundamental part of the human condition. 

[Mole 4333]

1. The early church was pretty messed up as well. It’s to be expected.

2. Jesus warned about it as well.

3. That shouldn’t excuse it - a little leaven and all. It’s destroying any semblance of witness for the Gospel.

4. In recent years, I’ve struggled with this reality: the unbelieving world — or at least in America — sees the Gospel as a message of hatred rather than a desperately needed life preserver. American unbelievers aren’t deceived by Satan or their flesh as TV preachers like to shout; unbelievers are correctly reflecting back what we — the royal we, the Church — are presenting as the Gospel with our lives.

5. This should be treated with grave concern and repentance. Galatians 1:8 seems somewhat applicable. What is the Church actually preaching with our lives?

6. With as fractured as the Church is, I’m not sure if there’s a practical/non-supernatural solution.

7. Revival begins with repentance.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Mole

[texasdago 7575]

Just now, Mole said:

1. The early church was pretty messed up as well. It’s to be expected.

2. Jesus warned about it as well.

3. That shouldn’t excuse it - a little leaven and all. It’s destroying any semblance of witness for the Gospel.

4. In recent years, I’ve struggled with this reality: the unbelieving world — or at least in America — sees the Gospel as a message of hatred rather than a desperately needed life preserver. American unbelievers aren’t deceived by Satan or their flesh as TV preachers like to shout; unbelievers are correctly reflecting back what we — the royal we, the Church — are presenting as the Gospel with our lives.

5. This should be treated with grave concern and repentance. Galatians 1:8 seems somewhat applicable. What is the Church actually preaching with our lives?

6. With as fractured as the Church is, I’m not sure if there’s a practical/Mon-supernatural solution.

7. Revival begins with repentance.

 

 

Agreed with this and unfortunately I feel like the Church feels that no. 7 is not necessary when they don't think they are doing anything wrong.  All the Church?  No.  Much of the Evangelical Church?  Absolutely.   

[Clintonaldo 2574]

36 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

It’s not whataboutism. It’s a fundamental part of the human condition. 

Well said

[YGIFS 19450]

Sadly, a fundamental part of the human condition is to justify behavior, however negative, with citing a written work.  It's okay when it's a particular author specific to your life and philosophical mindset like Calvin, Locke, Menken, or Krugman.  Because people can just say, "Well, it figures you'd think that way given who you read."  But religion is singularly unique to the human condition in that when we base socio-political or socio-economic basis on it, it immediately is given credence because it's not just some academic outlier...it's based on the Bible, Koran, Torah, or the Vedas.  When you have that kinda history and muscle behind a "interpretation based on faith".....it's not hard to see why 1/3rd to 2/3rd of people in a given society will be like, "Oh fuck yeah, we're totally using that to get what we want and punish the different."  

IMO, that's the real human condition.  Inventing shit to justify shitty behavior and punish the outliers.  But a thread for another time.  I can't fucking believe I'm considering converting to Catholicism...now that's a sign of the end times..  

[Gengs1 2583]

Why is that countries that are collectively further away from religion are better to live in and have better social programs?

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

40 minutes ago, Gengs1 said:

Why is that countries that are collectively further away from religion are better to live in and have better social programs?

You are literally 180 degrees opposite reality on that. The Judeo Christian world has historically been a bulwark for freedom and has had governance respecting individuality, while the non Judeo Christian world is much more authoritative and has little desire for or support of human rights and freedoms. Unless your sense of history is roughly the past couple decades, but even with that it’s scaffolding that has been built on the traditions of a millennium or two of Christianity before seeing a retreat in many instances beginning around the end of WW2 or the 1960’s. 

[Brisketexan 105154]

3 hours ago, texasdago said:

"I just hope that there continues to be enough people, both religious leaders and they laity, who can communicate a difference between Christianity in its truest intended form -- i.e., how Christ lived his life and taught others to live through his actual words and deeds as recounted in the New Testament -- and the bastardization and politicization of that ideal by those who foster hatred, bigotry, division, and subjugation.  Unfortunately, many see the latter and associate it with Christianity and organized religion at its core and its roots."

 

This... I know quite a few people that live a Christ-like life and are wonderful but they attend churches surrounded by people who claim to be Christians, put on a big show and yet act in downright hateful ways.  Guess who gets all the attention?  The rotten "Christians".  Reminds me of Matthew 7:20-23.

This... this has become the modern church...

"

^{Matthew 6:5} “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. ⁷ “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

 

My wife is a minister.  Her call is outside the Church -- she provides "sacraments" to a demographic that almost uniformly describes themselves as "spiritual, not religious," mostly because they equate "religious" with just what you describe.  They want NOTHING to do with the "Church," because public American Christianity is almost entirely a weapon of cruelty, separation, and anger.  It's not a theology, it's a tribal identity, and in all the bad ways.  Anyone with an inkling of what the Gospel is about wants nothing to do with that bullshit.

But these are people who still believe in the underlying message and truth found in the Gospels (and in other faiths).  And they have that innate human hunger and need for connection, and ritual.  So, she provides it.  Weddings.  Funerals.  Baptisms/naming ceremonies.  People are still getting those.  They just aren't getting them in the Church -- the Church that condemned their brother because he's gay; the Church that rages against immigrants; the Church that preaches about the Ten Commandments, then preaches from that same pulpit the worship of men who proudly and unapologetically violate almost all of them (and who call on the rest of us to do the same).

The message of the Great Commandment, of Torah, of Buddhism, all boil down to a simple truism: be kind.

The key thing that modern American Conspicuous Christianity is NOT: kind.

Young people aren't stupid.  They see this, in the bright neon signage of modern American behavior and discourse.  The least Christian people we see in society are so often the most vocal and conspicuous "Christians."  It's not the failures and shortcomings of these people that destroy the Church; it's the hypocrisy of using a religion of kindness to work cruelty.

In working with her flock, and seeing the wounds and harm done to them, and their reluctance to be affiliated with the Church, she comes back to the concept of resurrection.  Everything must die to become new again.  Perhaps it is time for the Church to die, so that it can become what it should be in renewal.

[BayouBill 835]

As a believer in Christ, it deeply saddens me how the world views the Christian church. In a lot of ways their views are correct...as stated previously, we've ignored the actual words of Jesus instead to impose our own selfish twist on what he is trying to tell us. I've had many conversations with people I'm close with who are atheists and agnostics and outside of not believing or being highly skeptical of the basic idea of an all knowing, all powerful God, their main issue is Christians just don't seem like good people so why would I want to believe anything they say. 

I don't try to convince anyone to believe a certain way, but I do at least want them to understand why my faith is the most important thing in the world to me. And the way world has formed an opinion on the church (again, in many ways rightfully so), it's very hard for anyone to understand that. So my response to people who question Christianity is basically read the words of Jesus and his disciples. Specifically, just read the book of James. It's only 5 short chapters and it's purpose was to describe how the Christian should live his life. I read it and even now I think how far we've gone away from the basics.

 

Long cat incoming...

Spoiler

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,

To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:

Greetings.

Trials and Temptations
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

9 Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10 But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. 11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Listening and Doing
19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

 

Favoritism Forbidden
2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”[b] also said, “You shall not murder.”[c] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

 

 

Taming the Tongue
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

Two Kinds of Wisdom
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

 

 

Submit Yourselves to God
4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]? 6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”[c]

7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

Boasting About Tomorrow
13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.

 

 

Warning to Rich Oppressors
5 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

Patience in Suffering
7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

12 Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

The Prayer of Faith
13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.

19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

 

[Brisketexan 105154]

15 minutes ago, BayouBill said:

Specifically, just read the book of James. It's only 5 short chapters and it's purpose was to describe how the Christian should live his life. I read it and even now I think how far we've gone away from the basics.

Yep.  When I was pointed back to James as an adult by a Presbyterian pastor I was in conversation with, it floored me.  Particularly the "faith without works is dead" message.  I contrasted that with the modern American evangelical movement, where all one has to do is -- publicly and conspicuously, telling anyone within earshot -- that you have "accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior."  That's it.  You checked the "I'm on team Jesus" box, and now you have carte blanche to be as giant an asshole as you possibly can, sowing hatred and cruelty far and wide, holding up your "But I am on team Jesus!" golden ticket to excuse/absolve you from any responsibility for your works of pain.  It's all "faith" [not even that, just claims of faith] and no works...worse than no works, actually -- "counter-works," using Jesus as a shield.

Is there good in any American Christianity, in the "Church universal" here?  Sure.  I see plenty of it.  I see the work that the Catholic Church is doing on the border, which is Christ-like.  I see many PCUSA churches being open and welcoming to all.  I see men like Alan Graham running Mobile Loaves and Fishes.  But when I look at the stewpot of American Christianity, it takes work to pluck out those morsels of Christianity from the giant vat of bitter and acrid broth that is the anger, separation, hate, and cruelty that the name of the faith is used for.  In America, "Christianity" is used to hurt far more than it is used to help.  The core value of kindness has been sidelined, degraded, and rendered close to irrelevant.

Some of the kindest people I know are Christians.

Almost ALL of the meanest people I know are "Christians."

Edited September 27, 2022 by Brisketexan

[Biff Tannen 45691]

5 hours ago, F250 said:

Grace is irresistible for the determined elect, acceptance implies choice which denigrates the Sovereignty of God.

Grace?  She died 30 years ago!

[F250 28777]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You are literally 180 degrees opposite reality on that. The Judeo Christian world has historically been a bulwark for freedom and has had governance respecting individuality, while the non Judeo Christian world is much more authoritative and has little desire for or support of human rights and freedoms. Unless your sense of history is roughly the past couple decades, but even with that it’s scaffolding that has been built on the traditions of a millennium or two of Christianity before seeing a retreat in many instances beginning around the end of WW2 or the 1960’s. 

This sounds wrong. It appears that you are conflating Western civilization with Judeo-Christian which is an American concept.

[Gengs1 2583]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You are literally 180 degrees opposite reality on that. The Judeo Christian world has historically been a bulwark for freedom and has had governance respecting individuality, while the non Judeo Christian world is much more authoritative and has little desire for or support of human rights and freedoms. Unless your sense of history is roughly the past couple decades, but even with that it’s scaffolding that has been built on the traditions of a millennium or two of Christianity before seeing a retreat in many instances beginning around the end of WW2 or the 1960’s. 

Let’s see

-Galileo was burned because he questioned the earth to be at the center.

-those  priests sure love making tender love to the children, when caught, let’s move them

-the abuses by the missionaries around the world  

-let’s not forget stealing kids from reservations and trying to convert them, if that didn’t work, let’s just burry them into one pile

I could go on but they let’s go with “those weren’t Christian’s so did that and they aren’t what I believe in” argument  

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

46 minutes ago, F250 said:

This sounds wrong. It appears that you are conflating Western civilization with Judeo-Christian which is an American concept.

Christendom is the underlying framework of western civilization for the last 1000 years (at least), so…

[Wulaw Horn 19077]

34 minutes ago, Gengs1 said:

Let’s see

-Galileo was burned because he questioned the earth to be at the center.

-those  priests sure love making tender love to the children, when caught, let’s move them

-the abuses by the missionaries around the world  

-let’s not forget stealing kids from reservations and trying to convert them, if that didn’t work, let’s just burry them into one pile

I could go on but they let’s go with “those weren’t Christian’s so did that and they aren’t what I believe in” argument  

No, I’m not disputing any of those things. That’s literally not what you said that I replied to, and that’s also not responsive in any way shape or form to what I wrote. 

[Brisketexan 105154]

16 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Commerce is the underlying framework of western civilization for the last 1000 years (at least), so…

My corrected version is just as true, if not moreso.  In fact, commerce coopted "Christianity" to use it for commercial ends, repeatedly.  The West happened to be nominally "Christian," and to use the architecture of the church for its power structure for some centuries, but the advancements of the West were mostly NOT Christian endeavors; they were commercial, political, and personal endeavors by people who happened to be Christian.  That mythos is bullshit, and it's killing Christianity, because "Christianity" must be the bestest thing ever, because it gave us freedom, and apple pie, and the flag and put a man on the moon and muscle cars like the GTO!, and how dare you criticize Christianity, are you saying Jesus Christ can't hit a curve ball????

Seriously, "Christianity" is less a genuine faith and more an excuse and golden ticket to support and excuse whatever the speaker wants to excuse.

[Gengs1 2583]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Christendom is the underlying framework of western civilization for the last 1000 years (at least), so…

That would probably be the Roman/Greek philosophy and teaching, democracy, philosophy, science.

Christianity didn’t give us western society since they still believe pope is the highest rank and we should listen to him.

let’s look at some Christian teachings,

don’t wear clothes with different cloth

women submit to men

Beat your wife if she misbehaves 

Slavery Ain’t that bad (teachings)

etc 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Gengs1

[Clintonaldo 2574]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  When I was pointed back to James as an adult by a Presbyterian pastor I was in conversation with, it floored me.  Particularly the "faith without works is dead" message.  I contrasted that with the modern American evangelical movement, where all one has to do is -- publicly and conspicuously, telling anyone within earshot -- that you have "accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior."  That's it.  You checked the "I'm on team Jesus" box, and now you have carte blanche to be as giant an asshole as you possibly can, sowing hatred and cruelty far and wide, holding up your "But I am on team Jesus!" golden ticket to excuse/absolve you from any responsibility for your works of pain.  It's all "faith" [not even that, just claims of faith] and no works...worse than no works, actually -- "counter-works," using Jesus as a shield.

Is there good in any American Christianity, in the "Church universal" here?  Sure.  I see plenty of it.  I see the work that the Catholic Church is doing on the border, which is Christ-like.  I see many PCUSA churches being open and welcoming to all.  I see men like Alan Graham running Mobile Loaves and Fishes.  But when I look at the stewpot of American Christianity, it takes work to pluck out those morsels of Christianity from the giant vat of bitter and acrid broth that is the anger, separation, hate, and cruelty that the name of the faith is used for.  In America, "Christianity" is used to hurt far more than it is used to help.  The core value of kindness has been sidelined, degraded, and rendered close to irrelevant.

Some of the kindest people I know are Christians.

Almost ALL of the meanest people I know are "Christians."

I guess my only rebuttal is of course there are shit heads who pretend to be Christian’s and they are the loud minority that ruin it for the majority but they could probably be said about any religion. The last 4 years politically haven’t helped that but the more people I talk to that I trust have gotten away from that. I think what you are seeing now are fake patriots claiming they are Christians. 

[Clintonaldo 2574]

Hey dick head. You made it!




I don’t deserve these things but I will take them. Just got home from hospital 2 hours ago and couldn’t think of a better thread to put this in




A healthy baby boy named Carter.


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Seeing this bumped has brought back some emotions I forgot about and I thank everyone for the good rep. We are almost 21 months in and it’s been the best experience ever.

I am thrilled Trey3216 is also enjoying it. This thread is a safe space somewhat so I will post my beautiful face.





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[SydneyCarton 48108]

16 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

I guess my only rebuttal is of course there are shit heads who pretend to be Christian’s and they are the loud minority that ruin it for the majority but they could probably be said about any religion. The last 4 years politically haven’t helped that but the more people I talk to that I trust have gotten away from that. I think what you are seeing now are fake patriots claiming they are Christians. 

The largest church In Houston, Second Baptist, the famous pastor Ed Young was recorded during sermon recently saying don’t vote for Lina Hidalgo. His sign out front also has a sign mocking being Woke. 
 

I’d say it’s not just patriots pretending when the pastors and leaders of churches, who have been those people for decades, are now teaching politics and division. 

[Clintonaldo 2574]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

The largest church In Houston, Second Baptist, the famous pastor Ed Young was recorded during sermon recently saying don’t vote for Lina Hidalgo. His sign out front also has a sign mocking being Woke. 
 

I’d say it’s not just patriots pretending when the pastors and leaders of churches, who have been those people for decades, are now teaching politics and division. 

Well yeah, again some pastors are fake patriots and they are completely wrong. Ed Young and his ilk are not where I attend church.  

[Degenerate Gardner 4085]

35 minutes ago, Clintonaldo said:

Seeing this bumped has brought back some emotions I forgot about and I thank everyone for the good rep. We are almost 21 months in and it’s been the best experience ever.

I am thrilled Trey3216 is also enjoying it. This thread is a safe space somewhat so I will post my beautiful face.





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Humanizing rhetoric is a great thing. You have a beautiful family. 

[F250 28777]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Christendom is the underlying framework of western civilization for the last 1000 years (at least), so…

I would say this is a correlation. The RCC unlike the Eastern Church ingested Aristotelian and Platonic philosophy into it's theology. The root of Western thought is Greek in origin and it incubated under Roman Catholic scholars for centuries. There wasn't anything unique about Christianity except the structure of the Roman Catholic Church that filled in a void after the fall of Rome.

[Snake Diggity 4625]

On 8/22/2020 at 12:42 PM, RomaVicta said:

I wish there was a different board for this. Philosophy or Religion or Philosophy/Religion.

For non-believers such as myself, you maybe don't realize how much this stuff is constantly in my face. It often has a strong in-group/out-group feel that I've always found off-putting. 

You in the club?

Yea

Great, man. 

Hey, new guy, how 'bout you.

Nah.

I'll pray for you. The club is the best. You're either in or out, and I hope you opt in! It will make your life great. 

There is so much presumption in that. I had a friendly chat with a Christian who came to the door last weekend. We went down the usual roads with me telling him over and over that arguments wouldn't work. Maybe he's right maybe he's not. If people find religion to be their path to a good and generous life, that's great. I'm doing fine without it. And, yes, I did ask for Jesus to come into my life back when I could be sincere about it and nada.

This is a news board where absurd lengths are sometimes taken to keep politics separate. It's odd that religion is welcome here instead. Now that I write that, I wonder if the inclinations are somehow connected. Don't challenge my politics. Don't challenge my religion. But the presence of a clear position on politics or religion is necessarily an opinion. Find a new place for fellowship, please don't claim space here.

My philosophy has simplified over the years into this: I don't care what you do as long as you don't hurt anyone and you don't make me watch. This sort of falls under making me watch. I'm not damaged, but I'm annoyed. 

Written with respect and without rancor.

 

Rep not enough.  Excellent post.