Do We Have a Christ Followers Thread?

[MeerkatBong 115]

Wheeeeeewwww, this thread got weird.

Certain posters having to hear themselves say the same thing, a dozen different ways, is why we can't have nice things, I guess.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:25 AM, SydneyCarton said:

So anyone who's ever been drunk, much less regularly drunk, is out of heaven, eh? I wonder why alcohol doesn't seem to rile up the masses the way Homosexuality does?

This is a tremendous post, and the heart of the problem. I will only disagree with one thing you said; None of this is fun. Not even remotely. It actually breaks my heart. 

It's because churches, as far as I know, are not going around claiming drunkenness or adultery or other sins are okay and not sinful like many do with homosexuality.  They aren't celebrating it like they do with gay weddings.

I truthfully wish homosexuality was not a sin.  It would make life easier.  I have gay family members.  But I believe the Bible is God's word.  Accordingly, I believe what the New Testament says about homosexuality and that my feelings about it are not relevant.  Jesus also spoke of marriage being between a husband and a wife.  I could not belong to a church that sanctioned gay marriage any more than I could belong to one that preached that lying, murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. were not sinful conduct that required repentance.

I do firmly believe in the legal right for gays to marry and have now for over 20 years when I first really read the Constitution.  But no way on the Church.  I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and that it is God's word.  I don't need a bunch of sermons or gay bashing from the pulpit.  I cannot even recall ever hearing a sermon on the subject.  But a church that does not believe in the Bible is not a place for me or my family.  Period.  Other churches can do what they want.  That is not my business and is between them and God.  I am happy there are churches that accept homosexuals, despite my beliefs that it is not at all biblical.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

And nobody in this country is crueler than the loudest self-proclaimed “Christians.” Cruelty is a pretty shitty foundational creed, but there we are.

You paint with a broad brush.  No group is more generous with their money and does more volunteering than the American Christian you seem to really despise.

[safe sex 12032]

Lol. "I wish I didn't have to look down on the gays for being gay, but well, Jesus says!"

[irishtexan 11712]

22 hours ago, txhorns said:

I think a big part of this is just pushback on the media portrayal of the lgbtq community.  Every show or movie now has to feature a gay couple or character and make their sexual orientation a focal point.  The lifestyle is portrayed as being glamorous and something to celebrate.  When the reality is that only 5% of the population identifies as lgbt and their lives are much the same as any heterosexual person.  When you start glamorizing a small subset of the population it is not surprising that a percentage of the people that is more mainstream gets pissed about it.  Then add in the fact that the group who is upset about it views it as a sim and the issue is just compounded.

 

13 hours ago, Poe It Up said:

I don’t think so, just stating that they’re over represented. 

 

It's almost like y'all are advocating for equal representation for all demographics in all aspects of society. Which sounds an awful lot like affirmative action to me....

[Poe It Up 126]

12 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

 

 

It's almost like y'all are advocating for equal representation for all demographics in all aspects of society. Which sounds an awful lot like affirmative action to me....

I can’t speak to other minority groups, my comment was specifically referencing Homosexuals. It’s possible that living in LA has skewed their perception on the size of the community, though. 

[F250 29203]

34 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

I can’t speak to other minority groups, my comment was specifically referencing Homosexuals. It’s possible that living in LA has skewed their perception on the size of the community, though. 

Weird take. I live in the ex-urbs in Texas and have managed to encounter quite a few homosexuals throughout my life. I have a gay step-brother, gay cousin, lesbian cousin on ex-wifes side, childhood friend came out of the closet in college, a very close friend is a married lesbian, a couple from church and a number of people I've encountered throughout my career.

It's not like I am partying in Key West, just living a regular life in Texas. I will say that a number of people I know are not obviously gay or lesbian. You wouldn't know until they tell you so maybe it's possible that the homosexuals in your life just don't feel safe around you to be themselves.

['stache 22145]

Lol, two moms kiss for a split second in Lightyear: "Ehermagerd! Overrepresentation! Freedom of Religion! WAAAAAAA!!! WAAAAAA!!! WAAAAAA!!!!"

[Poe It Up 126]

17 minutes ago, F250 said:

Weird take. I live in the ex-urbs in Texas and have managed to encounter quite a few homosexuals throughout my life. I have a gay step-brother, gay cousin, lesbian cousin on ex-wifes side, childhood friend came out of the closet in college, a very close friend is a married lesbian, a couple from church and a number of people I've encountered throughout my career.

It's not like I am partying in Key West, just living a regular life in Texas. I will say that a number of people I know are not obviously gay or lesbian. You wouldn't know until they tell you so maybe it's possible that the homosexuals in your life just don't feel safe around you to be themselves.

Yeah, that’s a lot and hasn’t been my experience. 

[aggie08 21841]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

It's because churches, as far as I know, are not going around claiming drunkenness or adultery or other sins are okay and not sinful like many do with homosexuality.  They aren't celebrating it like they do with gay weddings.

I truthfully wish homosexuality was not a sin.  It would make life easier.  I have gay family members.  But I believe the Bible is God's word.  Accordingly, I believe what the New Testament says about homosexuality and that my feelings about it are not relevant.  Jesus also spoke of marriage being between a husband and a wife.  I could not belong to a church that sanctioned gay marriage any more than I could belong to one that preached that lying, murdering, stealing, adultery, etc. were not sinful conduct that required repentance.

I do firmly believe in the legal right for gays to marry and have now for over 20 years when I first really read the Constitution.  But no way on the Church.  I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and that it is God's word.  I don't need a bunch of sermons or gay bashing from the pulpit.  I cannot even recall ever hearing a sermon on the subject.  But a church that does not believe in the Bible is not a place for me or my family.  Period.  Other churches can do what they want.  That is not my business and is between them and God.  I am happy there are churches that accept homosexuals, despite my beliefs that it is not at all biblical.  

Holy fuck. And you wonder why people are fleeing the Church in drivers. Utterly pathetic.

['stache 22145]

39 minutes ago, Poe It Up said:

Yeah, that’s a lot and hasn’t been my experience. 

Thanks for the neg, lol.

['stache 22145]

30 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Holy fuck. And you wonder why people are fleeing the Church in drivers. Utterly pathetic.

I mean, you have to admire his devotion to the text, except for the parts about the poors and foreigners, because those were clearly mistranslated, lol.

[Poe It Up 126]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

Thanks for the neg, lol.

I don’t remember doing that, but you’re welcome. 

[Celery Man 21099]

[WhatTheBuck 28934]

2 hours ago, trauma babe said:

Lol. "I wish I didn't have to look down on the gays for being gay, but well, Jesus says!"

Never mind the fact that Jesus never said anything about them at all. 

[workswithseed 2204]

33 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I mean, you have to admire his devotion to the text, except for the parts about the poors and foreigners, because those were clearly mistranslated, lol.

See we should have sin just be okay in churches. Don't mind Paul's letters. 

 

3 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Never mind the fact that Jesus never said anything about them at all. 

Jesus very much affirmed traditional marriage, it's going to be hard to say that he was OK with premarital sex, or that he was alright with gay marriage, if he affirmed traditional marriage. 

[F250 29203]

46 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

See we should have sin just be okay in churches. Don't mind Paul's letters. 

 

Jesus very much affirmed traditional marriage, it's going to be hard to say that he was OK with premarital sex, or that he was alright with gay marriage, if he affirmed traditional marriage. 

Serious question. Does salvation not complete until after baptism? In other words must the baptism take place in order for one's sins to be forgiven?

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by F250

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Holy fuck. And you wonder why people are fleeing the Church in drivers. Utterly pathetic.

I don't really wonder at all about why lost people in the world hate the Church and God's word.  The Bible says they will.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Serious question. Does salvation not complete until after baptism? In other words must the baptism take place in order for one's sins to be forgiven?

 

Ask the criminal on the cross.

[F250 29203]

6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Ask the criminal on the cross.

I was asking the CoC poster. I once had the pleasure of having dinner with a group of CoC and SBC people when the subject of Baptisim came up. It was pretty tense.

 

As the lone Methodist at the table.

[aggie08 21841]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

I don't really wonder at all about why lost people in the world hate the Church and God's word.  The Bible says they will.

What a fucking cop out.

Johnny Sack: "Homosexuals--even ones I know to be good people--aren't welcome at my Church. They're sinners, right alongside murderers."

Also Johnny Sack: "I don't wonder why 'lost' people hate the Church. Nothing I can do about it."

Also, also Johnny Sack: "Christians are the most charitable and generous people on the planet."

Without a single second of self-reflection regarding the incongruity of those statements. Complete psychopaths like you are why I left the Church. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Nice try.  I never said they’re not welcome at church.  All sinners are welcome at church.  If not, they’d be empty.  
 

But I won’t be a part of a church that condones any sin.  Period.  

[aggie08 21841]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Nice try.  I never said they’re not welcome at church.  All sinners are welcome at church.  If not, they’d be empty.  
 

But I won’t be a part of a church that condones any sin.  Period.  

"You're welcome at our Church...so long as you knock off all that marriage and equal rights talk, and you admit that your sexuality is a sin" is the same as saying they're not welcome at your Church. But you know that.

Edited October 4, 2022 by aggie08

[workswithseed 2204]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

I was asking the CoC poster. I once had the pleasure of having dinner with a group of CoC and SBC people when the subject of Baptisim came up. It was pretty tense.

 

As the lone Methodist at the table.

I was told to go out to baptize all nations. Weird thing to be told to do by Matthew, unless it doesn't matter. What's your thoughts on women pastors?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

"You're welcome at our Church...so long as you knock off all that marriage and equal rights talk, and you admit that your sexuality is a sin" is the same as saying they're not welcome at your Church. But you know that.

Nope.  Don't agree at all.

All sinners are welcome at church.

The church should teach the Bible and Biblical truths -- that homosexual sex is a sin.  No different than any other sin. 

[aggie08 21841]

1 minute ago, Johnny Sack said:

Nope.  Don't agree at all.

All sinners are welcome at church.

The church should teach the Bible and Biblical truths -- that homosexual sex is a sin.  No different than any other sin. 

Do tell: how many openly gay people attend your church under such enlightened and open-minded acceptance?

[F250 29203]

12 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

I was told to go out to baptize all nations. Weird thing to be told to do by Matthew, unless it doesn't matter. What's your thoughts on women pastors?

Pretty much everyone practices Baptism. My question for you was,  does it complete the process of salvation?

 

I have/had woman pastors. No issues here.

[workswithseed 2204]

5 minutes ago, F250 said:

Pretty much everyone practices Baptism. My question for you was,  does it complete the process of salvation?

 

I have/had woman pastors. No issues here.

Then you need to be baptized, no issues on my side either then.

 

[C-Man 27793]

45 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

What a fucking cop out.

Johnny Sack: "Homosexuals--even ones I know to be good people--aren't welcome at my Church. They're sinners, right alongside murderers."

Also Johnny Sack: "I don't wonder why 'lost' people hate the Church. Nothing I can do about it."

Also, also Johnny Sack: "Christians are the most charitable and generous people on the planet."

Without a single second of self-reflection regarding the incongruity of those statements. Complete psychopaths like you are why I left the Church. 

Yeah, it takes serious mental gymnastics to make all of that square with each other.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

42 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Yeah, it takes serious mental gymnastics to make all of that square with each other.

Well yes.  But I didn’t say that.  He constructed a straw man.  It falls apart at the first bullet point because I didn’t say that. 

[Celery Man 21099]

The problem is that being gay isn’t an action you take or a choice you make.

[aggie08 21841]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Well yes.  But I didn’t say that.  He constructed a straw man.  It falls apart at the first bullet point because I didn’t say that. 

Fuck all the way off. "Welcoming" gay people, so long as they acknowledge that they're living in sin just like murderers and thieves isn't welcoming gay people. You disingenuous piece of shit.

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Do tell: how many openly gay people attend your church under such enlightened and open-minded acceptance?

Weird how I haven't gotten an answer to this one.

[PRONG HORN 3219]

Hey Zeus laughs at people who are afraid of, and shame sinners.  They’re just people.  That’s why there is a laughing Jesus tattoo in every damn tattoo shop.  
 

It’s from the Middle East.  That kind of behavior isn’t a European trait.  Euros hated too, but the nutty obsession with (my god is the only way) kind of stuff was brought to Europe from the Mid East, and a lot of American Christians are acting like they should go out and buy a turban to wear to church.  Act like your European blood and stop sucking that Mid East dick on your Christian path.  He’ll laugh a little less at you.  

[F250 29203]

2 hours ago, workswithseed said:

Then you need to be baptized, no issues on my side either then.

 

I brought up baptism because nobody agrees on it. I am familiar with the CoC and their approach to baptism which is some type of quasi-sacrament although they wouldn't accept that description. Someone like Johnny Sack will insist it's nothing more than a symbolic act. I see it as a sacrament that should be performed on infants. That is just 3 views of Baptisim and there are many more and everyone believes that their belief is supported by scripture.

Personally, I don't see any conflict with the Christian faith and homosexuality from a biblical view. Others might disagree but then they will disagree about a lot of other doctrines so I don't really see a point in Bible thumping since there is no definitive answer for most doctrinal differences.

[CTC2 2865]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Nope.  Don't agree at all.

All sinners are welcome at church.

The church should teach the Bible and Biblical truths -- that homosexual sex is a sin.  No different than any other sin. 

Dude, why do you give a fuck about what everyone else is doing?  If you don’t approve of gay sex don’t do it. Seems like that is all that matters is that you are living your life within the boundaries of morality you have set for yourself. Good for you. Why are people like you so concerned with making everyone else conform to your ideals?

[Johnny Sack 8397]

11 minutes ago, CTC2 said:

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

Fuck all the way off. "Welcoming" gay people, so long as they acknowledge that they're living in sin just like murderers and thieves isn't welcoming gay people. You disingenuous piece of shit.

Weird how I haven't gotten an answer to this one.

We have several gays that I know of.  They know they cannot get married in our church as we believe it’s not biblical and a sin.  No one is forced acknowledge anything to be welcome in church.  So another straw man denied.  
 

Others are free to disagree.  Isn’t my problem.  It’s between them and God.  
 

Are you a believer?  Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your savior? Do you have a daily walk with Christ?

[Brisketexan 106955]

Dude, why do you give a fuck about what everyone else is doing?  If you don’t approve of gay sex don’t do it. Seems like that is all that matters is that you are living your life within the boundaries of morality you have set for yourself. Good for you. Why are people like you so concerned with making everyone else conform to your ideals?

Because it’s not about faith. It’s about power, and using faith to assert it, almost exclusively over those weaker and marginalized.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because it’s not about faith. It’s about power, and using faith to assert it, almost exclusively over those weaker and marginalized.

Wrong. It’s never even discussed.  It’s just something we don’t do.  I also didn’t bring it up here.  
 

And gays in America are hardly weaker or marginalized.  Pretty sure they on average have higher incomes and net worths than straights do.  

[bolverk 30351]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Wrong. It’s never even discussed.  It’s just something we don’t do.  I also didn’t bring it up here.  
 

And gays in America are hardly weaker or marginalized.  Pretty sure they on average have higher incomes and net worths than straights do.  

God is gonna spit you out. I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition and, therefore, understand the hell fire of that faith.

Quote

 

MATTHEW 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44“Then they also will answerd Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

 

Quote

 

REVELATION 3:15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither [k]cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.

 

[TwiceHorn 32087]

I just have never gotten too twisted up about Jews, and gays, and Baptists, and whatnot and whether they're saved.

I got enough on my plate just for me.

[bolverk 30351]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I just have never gotten too twisted up about Jews, and gays, and Baptists, and whatnot and whether they're saved.

I got enough on my plate just for me.

Tending to one's own garden or taking care of one's own side of the street seems like the wisest move.

[aggie08 21841]

1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

We have several gays that I know of.  They know they cannot get married in our church as we believe it’s not biblical and a sin.  No one is forced acknowledge anything to be welcome in church.  So another straw man denied.  

And if they decide, "You know what, it's our lives, and we can decide what God wants for us," and get married because they don't believe that who they are is a sin...everything going to be hunky dory on Sunday?

If there's a heaven, one of two things is going to happen to you when you die:

1) Jesus is going up meet you at the gates and say, "Thank you, Johnny, for taking the Bible so literally [well, as you interpret it] and treating those homos and queers as sinners and less than. It's important that they know their place." That's a heaven that I want no part of, but it seems like it may be your cup of tea.

2) Jesus will say, "What the fuck is wrong with you? How could you misconstrue my teachings so completely? You think I wanted you to judge God's children as sinners and stand in their way for something as trivial and inconsequential as who they lay with?"

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And if they decide, "You know what, it's our lives, and we can decide what God wants for us," and get married because they don't believe that who they are is a sin...everything going to be hunky dory on Sunday?

If there's a heaven, one of two things is going to happen to you when you die:

1) Jesus is going up meet you at the gates and say, "Thank you, Johnny, for taking the Bible so literally [well, as you interpret it] and treating those homos and queers as sinners and less than. It's important that they know their place." That's a heaven that I want no part of, but it seems like it may be your cup of tea.

2) Jesus will say, "What the fuck is wrong with you? How could you misconstrue my teachings so completely? You think I wanted you to judge God's children as sinners and stand in their way for something as trivial and inconsequential as who they lay with?"

“If there’s a heaven”? You don’t sound like you are a believer.  If that’s the case, why do you care what I think the Bible teaches about the subject?  Or that I have the audacity to believe gay marriage isn’t Biblical.  I certainly don’t have any issue with gay marriage outside of my church.  I’ve supported the legal right for gays to be married in the USA basically my entire adult life.  
 

I am not judging anyone.  It’s not my business.  Only God gets to judge his children. Other than responding to posts on surly, I spend no energy on the subject of homosexuality and the Bible.  Of the thousands of sermons and Bible studies I’ve listened to or participated in, the subject just does not come up.
 

I don’t understand why God’s word says what it does about homosexuality.  It’s not for me to question. His ways are not mine.  But I know what the Bible does say.  And I won’t be involved in a church that contradicts biblical truth just so it can conform to the current world culture.  Not going to happen.  Other people can do what they want in their churches.  Doesn’t affect me, my wife, or my children.  

[Johnny Sack 8397]

6 hours ago, bolverk said:

God is gonna spit you out. I was raised in the Southern Baptist tradition and, therefore, understand the hell fire of that faith.

 

Are you a believer?  Do you have a daily walk with Christ?

If so, I’d caution and admonish you on judging others.  
 

I don’t deserve salvation at all.  I’m a wretched sinner.  But I have it by God’s grace and through his son Jesus.  

Edited October 5, 2022 by Johnny Sack

[Johnny Sack 8397]

5 hours ago, aggie08 said:

And if they decide, "You know what, it's our lives, and we can decide what God wants for us," and get married because they don't believe that who they are is a sin...everything going to be hunky dory on Sunday?

If there's a heaven, one of two things is going to happen to you when you die:

1) Jesus is going up meet you at the gates and say, "Thank you, Johnny, for taking the Bible so literally [well, as you interpret it] and treating those homos and queers as sinners and less than. It's important that they know their place." That's a heaven that I want no part of, but it seems like it may be your cup of tea.

2) Jesus will say, "What the fuck is wrong with you? How could you misconstrue my teachings so completely? You think I wanted you to judge God's children as sinners and stand in their way for something as trivial and inconsequential as who they lay with?"

You ignored my question on whether you’re a believer and took the time to delete my question from my post you quoted.  Why did you do that?  Why are you avoiding that simple question?

i answered your question. You didn’t answer mine.  

[WhatTheBuck 28934]

12 hours ago, Celery Man said:

The problem is that being gay isn’t an action you take or a choice you make.

But adultery is and it’s expressly forbidden in the Ten Commandments. God reportedly etched it in stone. There is no “Thou shalt not be gay” commandment.

But “Christian” homophobes have no problem with adulterers. Even serial adulterers who boast about committing sexual assault. No, they just don’t like gay people and hide behind a few passages in the Old Testament as an excuse to justify their bigotry.

[Poe It Up 126]

14 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

But adultery is and it’s expressly forbidden in the Ten Commandments. God reportedly etched it in stone. There is no “Thou shalt not be gay” commandment.

But “Christian” homophobes have no problem with adulterers. Even serial adulterers who boast about committing sexual assault. No, they just don’t like gay people and hide behind a few passages in the Old Testament as an excuse to justify their bigotry.

His point was that he wouldn’t be a member of a church that encourages adultery either. I don’t understand how y’all can’t grasp this concept of hate the sin and not the sinner. 

[Captainant 28574]

1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

I don’t understand how y’all can’t grasp this concept of hate the sin and not the sinner. 

I know that you "don't know any gay people in your town", but it's pretty often that evangelicals mix that up and just hate both. It's fucking wild the moral panic I've heard and read and seen here on Surly and IRL about gay folks and "grooming" and every possible awful thing you could say about a person. 

It's a nice empty statement for you to uncritically defend yourself and your hate with, but means about as much as "thoughts and prayers" did in Uvalde. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

58 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I know that you "don't know any gay people in your town", but it's pretty often that evangelicals mix that up and just hate both. It's fucking wild the moral panic I've heard and read and seen here on Surly and IRL about gay folks and "grooming" and every possible awful thing you could say about a person. 

It's a nice empty statement for you to uncritically defend yourself and your hate with, but means about as much as "thoughts and prayers" did in Uvalde. 

Are you a believer and follower of Christ?

[Poe It Up 126]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I know that you "don't know any gay people in your town", but it's pretty often that evangelicals mix that up and just hate both. It's fucking wild the moral panic I've heard and read and seen here on Surly and IRL about gay folks and "grooming" and every possible awful thing you could say about a person. 

It's a nice empty statement for you to uncritically defend yourself and your hate with, but means about as much as "thoughts and prayers" did in Uvalde. 

I have to say that I’ve never had someone mention grooming to me, that seems like a conversation stopper. I don’t hate these people at all. They’ll have to answer for their sins in the end, but that’s no different than myself.